It's a simple enough concept, you can't go back hours later after someone's been handed their winning and say I have a video of you with an extra card, but if you catch them in the act it should be an automatic loss.
If someone wins a tournament, and come to find out they had 6 of the same card in their deck instead of 4 they should be stripped of all those victories, and their winnings repossessed, or suspended from future events.
Things like triggered events, and failure to draw a card, can, and will happen, as I said it is up to the player, judges, and opponents to be aware of their surroundings, and if they catch something not right happening their shouldn't be any excuses as to why it is, or isn't being dealt with appropriately, and if they don't catch it, well that's life, it isn't always fair.
But such an action changes the entire tournament. If first place cheated and needs dq'ed, the top 8 is now 2nd-9th, matchups play out different, and everyones final standings would change. Knocking everyones prizes down 1 place has no more integrity than the cheater holding first.
In many ways that would be like going back and saying.. "Aha! The Seahawks were hacking the opposing team's headsets all season, take away their SuperBowl and give it to the Broncos"... you could take away the win but giving it to the Seahawks last opponent isn't exactly "right" either. Maybe without cheating the 49ers beat the Seahawks in the playoffs and the 49ers would have beaten the Broncos too, but you certainly can't hold another Superbowl. Not to mention when it's looked at in History the Seahawks will have always won. There would just always be an asterisk next to the win explaining the controversy.
In many ways that would be like going back and saying.. "Aha! The Seahawks were hacking the opposing team's headsets all season, take away their SuperBowl and give it to the Broncos"... you could take away the win but giving it to the Seahawks last opponent isn't exactly "right" either. Maybe without cheating the 49ers beat the Seahawks in the playoffs and the 49ers would have beaten the Broncos too, but you certainly can't hold another Superbowl. Not to mention when it's looked at in History the Seahawks will have always won. There would just always be an asterisk next to the win explaining the controversy.
It's even simpler than that. This is analogous to crying that a Seahawks' wide receiver for the wasn't on the line of scrimmage for a 3rd and 7 play in the second quarter of the NFC Championship Game, thus putting six men on the line giving cause for an illegal procedure penalty that both the officials and the opposing team failed to address at the time. Because of this clear and blatant flaunting of the rules of football, Seattle's participation in the NFL playoffs should be nullified, because talented teams do not make this error.
It's even simpler than that. This is analogous to crying that a Seahawks' wide receiver for the wasn't on the line of scrimmage for a 3rd and 7 play in the second quarter of the NFC Championship Game, thus putting six men on the line giving cause for an illegal procedure penalty that both the officials and the opposing team failed to address at the time. Because of this clear and blatant flaunting of the rules of football, Seattle's participation in the NFL playoffs should be nullified, because talented teams do not make this error.
I'm not a big sports fan but aren't football players called all the time for illegal actions? Ref calls are a fairly frequent thing. If they didn't make mistakes that wouldn't be the case.
It annoys me when someone makes an argument that's so obviously bad that I can refute it after thinking for five seconds. Like, there's two options. Either you're too dim to realize how blatantly your argument is flawed, or you know your argument is flawed but you're trying to pass it off as legitimate anyway. Neither is very flattering.
A 5-yard penalty does not result in a game loss for the offending team.
@Fluffy_Bunny: Your concerns have merit, because at least they're correct. However,(disclaimer: IMO) on balance, giving prizes to the top 8 legitimate decks is more fair than giving prizes to the top 7 decks and one guy playing bicycle playing cards. Additionally, the 2nd to 9th best decks are probably more correctly ranked than 2-8 where some of the players are eliminated early by the random free spells hammer. Finally, being harsh to inattentive/cheats deincentivizes the behaviour, which would cause it to occur less frequently, which is a good thing. Do you disagree with any of that?
I also don't think you should ban people from future events unless you have some evidence of intent. Can someone explain what that accomplishes?
Heck I convinced back in the day in a 100 players tournament 3 of my opponents that I can choose which cards gets removed with Relic of Progenitus. I just tapped it pointed at my opponents graveyard and said "Relic on your X." and they removed the card I named. Won me 2 matches against Ichorid and one match against Aggro Loam and the move I did wasn't even illegal as far as I know.
It's even simpler than that. This is analogous to crying that a Seahawks' wide receiver for the wasn't on the line of scrimmage for a 3rd and 7 play in the second quarter of the NFC Championship Game, thus putting six men on the line giving cause for an illegal procedure penalty that both the officials and the opposing team failed to address at the time. Because of this clear and blatant flaunting of the rules of football, Seattle's participation in the NFL playoffs should be nullified, because talented teams do not make this error.
I'm not a big sports fan but aren't football players called all the time for illegal actions? Ref calls are a fairly frequent thing. If they didn't make mistakes that wouldn't be the case.
I'm not a big sports fan either Aazadan, but i'm pretty sure that is CommiePuddin's point.
It's even simpler than that. This is analogous to crying that a Seahawks' wide receiver for the wasn't on the line of scrimmage for a 3rd and 7 play in the second quarter of the NFC Championship Game, thus putting six men on the line giving cause for an illegal procedure penalty that both the officials and the opposing team failed to address at the time. Because of this clear and blatant flaunting of the rules of football, Seattle's participation in the NFL playoffs should be nullified, because talented teams do not make this error.
I'm not a big sports fan but aren't football players called all the time for illegal actions? Ref calls are a fairly frequent thing. If they didn't make mistakes that wouldn't be the case.
Similarly, judge calls are a regular thing at major tournaments. The game play issue that sparked this thread occurred immediately following a judge call and subsequent correction of the game state.
Wow what a turd, how did nobody catch him topdecking that card, and im assuming its not mandatory to have your opponent cut your deck? I understand the wanting to win but I really don't understand how people even feel good about themselves and a win when they win like that.
It's even simpler than that. This is analogous to crying that a Seahawks' wide receiver for the wasn't on the line of scrimmage for a 3rd and 7 play in the second quarter of the NFC Championship Game, thus putting six men on the line giving cause for an illegal procedure penalty that both the officials and the opposing team failed to address at the time. Because of this clear and blatant flaunting of the rules of football, Seattle's participation in the NFL playoffs should be nullified, because talented teams do not make this error.
I'm not a big sports fan but aren't football players called all the time for illegal actions? Ref calls are a fairly frequent thing. If they didn't make mistakes that wouldn't be the case.
They are called for penalties all the time. But many times they are also missed and very similar things to this thread happen on NFL websites when it happens. People (fans) demand that their team be awarded the win because half way through the game a ref made a call they didnt like or didnt make a call when they maybe should have. The NFL does it right... they ignore the overreaction and let the games stand as they were played. In theory the mistakes should at least come close to balancing out over the season and if you go back and criticize every call in every game you open up a Pandora's box of issues.
Would you prefer magic to be the way it is? Or would you prefer to have 3 high level judges watching every game calling out every minor mistake and doling out punishments like "discard a random card, lose 3 life, sac a creature". Or is it that you want people to just plain get game loses for every mistake? Heck by the time you hit top 8 it'll probably be the 8 guys that were lucky enough to not make a mistake.
Wow what a turd, how did nobody catch him topdecking that card, and im assuming its not mandatory to have your opponent cut your deck? I understand the wanting to win but I really don't understand how people even feel good about themselves and a win when they win like that.
They did catch him. It was pointed out in the chat when the video was live, a judge at the store was alerted, and (if you turn up your volume high enough, you can hear) the player was disqualified.
In other words: Exactly what is supposed to happen in these circumstances.
This is a lot different, and should be penalized for cheating. This was not a 'put back one card instead of 2' he clearly picked up the deck, looked at the top card and replaced the deck while the other player was doing stuff and distracted. There is no question of intent here, or a play mistake.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Heck I convinced back in the day in a 100 players tournament 3 of my opponents that I can choose which cards gets removed with Relic of Progenitus. I just tapped it pointed at my opponents graveyard and said "Relic on your X." and they removed the card I named. Won me 2 matches against Ichorid and one match against Aggro Loam and the move I did wasn't even illegal as far as I know.
Hrm. I know misrepresenting the board state or what a card does to an opponent is illegal. But it's another one of those "depends on intent" things, and of course it's so hard to know that for sure...
Hrm. I know misrepresenting the board state or what a card does to an opponent is illegal. But it's another one of those "depends on intent" things, and of course it's so hard to know that for sure...
I believed it myself until I made that move against a lvl 2 judge who told me I am wrong. After knowing better I didn't have the balls to try it again but it was just an example in how many ways you can "cheat" in Magic.
It seems like every other GP there comes a story about the guy who won making a giant "play mistake" that really helped him. From playing 6 of your key card, to getting an extra card from Brainstorm, to not counting life loss from Thoughtseize, the list goes on (and these are the only ones that have been caught). As a good player, I NEVER make these kinds of mistakes. But it seems that players who go on to win major tournaments do.
So should I loosen my gameplay? Should I stop being so meticulous when it comes to life totals, cards I have drawn, etc? It seems that might be the secret to winning Grand Prixs. This might be the extra advantage that these players are getting that I don't have: being bad at magic.
To be quite honest, it isn't the people making mistakes who are bad at magic, it is the people on the other side of the table that are not catching mistakes that are bad at magic. I can't say how many game wins I have gotten because my opponent did not present his sideboard, presented a 17 card sideboard, drew an extra card from x draw effect, presented a 59 card deck (usually post sideboard), or other things. However, if an opponent plays a shock land untapped, or thoughtsieze, or whatever, I always tell them "take 2 damage" and annotate on my score sheet. (-2 SL) (-2 TS) (-2 ComDam) etc. On the same token, if I were to play divination, ask my opponent "drawing 3?" and they say "go ahead" then they failed to catch my mistake, and a turn or 2 later is to late for them to call the judge. If they do, I just claim to have forgotten that it was 2 instead of 3, and that I ask the opponent to confirm my draw, and he said fine to draw 3. It was on him.
These GP and PT players that don't catch mistakes are handing the opponent the game. It is no longer cheating once your opponent lets you continue the game. It is cheating if they catch with 5 cards hidden under your leg or up your sleeve, or a 20 card sideboard. Or intentionally putting a permanent into play without paying mana cost when the opponent is looking through his hand. That is cheating, making a mistake your opponent should be able to correct you on and return the game to a proper legal play state is not cheating.
[quote from="Cortar" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/545324-do-you-have-to-be-a-bad-player-to-win-a-gp?comment=1"]To be quite honest, it isn't the people making mistakes who are bad at magic, it is the people on the other side of the table that are not catching mistakes that are bad at magic. I can't say how many game wins I have gotten because my opponent did not present his sideboard, presented a 17 card sideboard, drew an extra card from x draw effect, presented a 59 card deck (usually post sideboard), or other things. However, if an opponent plays a shock land untapped, or thoughtsieze, or whatever, I always tell them "take 2 damage" and annotate on my score sheet. (-2 SL) (-2 TS) (-2 ComDam) etc. On the same token, if I were to play divination, ask my opponent "drawing 3?" and they say "go ahead" then they failed to catch my mistake, and a turn or 2 later is to late for them to call the judge. If they do, I just claim to have forgotten that it was 2 instead of 3, and that I ask the opponent to confirm my draw, and he said fine to draw 3. It was on him.
These GP and PT players that don't catch mistakes are handing the opponent the game. It is no longer cheating once your opponent lets you continue the game. It is cheating if they catch with 5 cards hidden under your leg or up your sleeve, or a 20 card sideboard. Or intentionally putting a permanent into play without paying mana cost when the opponent is looking through his hand. That is cheating, making a mistake your opponent should be able to correct you on and return the game to a proper legal play state is not cheating.
If it was intentional and not an honest mistake, it's still cheating. Saying otherwise is like saying a pickpocket isn't a thief just because his target didn't notice his wallet was missing until he got home. The pickpocket is a thief one way or the other. Anyone intending to get away with making a bad play is cheating.
Now if it was an honest mistake and the opponent didn't catch it, then yeah, he's just kind of SOL.
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Wind of Endless Plains 2WWWWW
Legendary Creature - Avatar
Flying, Vigilance, Lifelink
Madness 3WWWWW
If Wind of the Endless Plains' madness cost was paid, destroy all lands and creatures. They can't be regenerated. Wind of Endless Plains gains Defender.
7/7
Waves of the Endless Island 2UUUUU
Legendary Creature - Avatar
Split-second, Non-basic Landwalk, Shroud
Madness 3UUUUU
If Waves of the Endless Island's madness cost was paid, return all permanents to their owner's hands. Waves of the Endless Island gains Defender.
7/7
Confusion of Endless Possibilities 5WUBRG
Legendary Creature - Avatar
When Confusion of Endless Possibilities enters the battlefield, target player skips his or her next turn and your life total becomes 1.
Hexproof, Haunt, Amplify 7
Madness 7WUBRG
If Confusion of Endless Possibilities' madness cost was paid, target player skips his or her next turn. Confusion of Endless Possibilities gains Defender.
7/7
Winning a GP should mean you are a good player who doesn't make mistakes. If you can win a major tournament while still making play mistakes then that really speaks volumes for the skill level of Magic the Gathering.
Do you see Chess players win tournaments with 200+ people suddenly "forget" what a piece does? "oops sorry I tried to move my rook diagonals, im tired guys geezz that was funny wasn't it?"
Yep, this. It's not like people haven't used their cards hundreds of times before. How many times do you think Javier Dominguez has used Brainstorm before in his life? Maybe a couple thousand times? Doesn't make sense.
I was 3-0 last Saturday at an 8 round PTQ. In round 4, I was up a game against RG Monsters. I had a pithing needle on domri rade. At some point my opponent used Domri, drawing a ghor clan. A couple turns later, he top decked a second ghor clan to barely trample over for the win, right before I could stablize with a big sphinxs rev on my next untap.
It's up to the effects controller to catch it in that situation. Under the current rules, your opponent isn't responsible for your triggers. In a tournament situation trying to activate the ability is the right move. At the recent GP DC you can even see an example of this on camera. Cuneo is playing elves and the opponent has a Chalice on 1. Cuneo casts a card into the Chalice, the opponent fails to catch it and the card hit the battlefield. The commentators even praised the play. It's kind of a shady move but it's perfectly legal.
I am not a RA or Judge, but I think those are two very different situations. With the Chalice it is a trigger that counters a spell, whereas with Pithing Needle the activated ability cannot be played in the first place- there is no trigger that you are required to notice. Granted, for the person who gave this example it was moot since they did not catch it until after the game was over, but I think had it been caught, say, before the end of the turn I think the results would have been different than the Chalice example.
This is true. I played at a 75 card proxy Legacy tournament yesterday and there were a few players who would have never played Legacy with the real cards (at least not right now with the cost barrier). I explained to a new player that Chalice of the Void has a trigger that needs to be used if you want to counter a spell or not. Both players need to make sure the trigger goes off (missed triggers and all). I even gave her a real life example where a player played a 1 mana spell with Chalice on 1 because his opponent forgot the trigger.
I also explained to another player the difference between Surgical Extraction, Slaughter Games, and Extirpate. All of these types of cards are cards that versed Magic players know and cheaters know when to try to take advantage and when not to. I've seen known cheaters only cheat vs. specific players while other better players said that they never cheated vs. them. (BTW, I'm not advocating whether the GP winner cheated or not.)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
You are supposed to present your sideboard at the start of a match, face down usually, so your opponent has the chance to ensure you have a legal amount of cards in it. I.E. you hand your opponent your sideboard, it has 16 cards in it, he can either call a judge, or tell you hey, your sideboard has an extra card, you might wanna square that away before we start.
You are supposed to present your sideboard at the start of a match, face down usually, so your opponent has the chance to ensure you have a legal amount of cards in it. I.E. you hand your opponent your sideboard, it has 16 cards in it, he can either call a judge, or tell you hey, your sideboard has an extra card, you might wanna square that away before we start.
It is a rule, but I have a hard time believing you when you said that you have won games simply because of an opponent not presenting their SB. I asked a judge on tumblr:
Q: thewormturns asked: I had forgotten that the "present sideboards" step even existed, though I only compete at the FNM level for the most part. At what REL level would you start enforcing this? I can't say I have ever had an opponent present their SB nor have I even thought to do so myself.
A: It’s not enforced at any level, but a player can certainly request that the opponent present his or her sideboard with the main deck.
I can see an opponent getting some kind of warning or penalty after a SB check is requested and the deck is too low or the SB too high, but not for actually failing to present the SB.
It happened at least once. Guy had 60 in his main and 23 in his side. He was clearly cheating and hoping no one would ask to count his sideboard. His sideboard had full playsets of stuff he listed as x2 or x3 in his decklist.
It happened at least once. Guy had 60 in his main and 23 in his side. He was clearly cheating and hoping no one would ask to count his sideboard. His sideboard had full playsets of stuff he listed as x2 or x3 in his decklist.
I did not mean to say that no game win was ever gained by you as a result of asking for a sb check, because if you ask for one and the sb is over then that could (and maybe should, I am not up on DCI rulings) happen. What I was saying was that no game loss has been handed out (properly) as a result of a player simply forgetting to present their sb, and I am kinda doubt that a judge would improperly hand out such a harsh ruling.
In many ways that would be like going back and saying.. "Aha! The Seahawks were hacking the opposing team's headsets all season, take away their SuperBowl and give it to the Broncos"... you could take away the win but giving it to the Seahawks last opponent isn't exactly "right" either. Maybe without cheating the 49ers beat the Seahawks in the playoffs and the 49ers would have beaten the Broncos too, but you certainly can't hold another Superbowl. Not to mention when it's looked at in History the Seahawks will have always won. There would just always be an asterisk next to the win explaining the controversy.
It's even simpler than that. This is analogous to crying that a Seahawks' wide receiver for the wasn't on the line of scrimmage for a 3rd and 7 play in the second quarter of the NFC Championship Game, thus putting six men on the line giving cause for an illegal procedure penalty that both the officials and the opposing team failed to address at the time. Because of this clear and blatant flaunting of the rules of football, Seattle's participation in the NFL playoffs should be nullified, because talented teams do not make this error.
I'm not a big sports fan but aren't football players called all the time for illegal actions? Ref calls are a fairly frequent thing. If they didn't make mistakes that wouldn't be the case.
A 5-yard penalty does not result in a game loss for the offending team.
@Fluffy_Bunny: Your concerns have merit, because at least they're correct. However,(disclaimer: IMO) on balance, giving prizes to the top 8 legitimate decks is more fair than giving prizes to the top 7 decks and one guy playing bicycle playing cards. Additionally, the 2nd to 9th best decks are probably more correctly ranked than 2-8 where some of the players are eliminated early by the random free spells hammer. Finally, being harsh to inattentive/cheats deincentivizes the behaviour, which would cause it to occur less frequently, which is a good thing. Do you disagree with any of that?
I also don't think you should ban people from future events unless you have some evidence of intent. Can someone explain what that accomplishes?
I saw people casting Brainstorm from an Underground Sea under Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void with the ability to only counter your enemies spells, Path to Exile finding a dual land and many many more.
Heck I convinced back in the day in a 100 players tournament 3 of my opponents that I can choose which cards gets removed with Relic of Progenitus. I just tapped it pointed at my opponents graveyard and said "Relic on your X." and they removed the card I named. Won me 2 matches against Ichorid and one match against Aggro Loam and the move I did wasn't even illegal as far as I know.
I'm not a big sports fan either Aazadan, but i'm pretty sure that is CommiePuddin's point.
"A Plague on All Your Houses!" - Thespian's Stage Pox
Similarly, judge calls are a regular thing at major tournaments. The game play issue that sparked this thread occurred immediately following a judge call and subsequent correction of the game state.
The comparison is sound.
Wow what a turd, how did nobody catch him topdecking that card, and im assuming its not mandatory to have your opponent cut your deck? I understand the wanting to win but I really don't understand how people even feel good about themselves and a win when they win like that.
They are called for penalties all the time. But many times they are also missed and very similar things to this thread happen on NFL websites when it happens. People (fans) demand that their team be awarded the win because half way through the game a ref made a call they didnt like or didnt make a call when they maybe should have. The NFL does it right... they ignore the overreaction and let the games stand as they were played. In theory the mistakes should at least come close to balancing out over the season and if you go back and criticize every call in every game you open up a Pandora's box of issues.
Would you prefer magic to be the way it is? Or would you prefer to have 3 high level judges watching every game calling out every minor mistake and doling out punishments like "discard a random card, lose 3 life, sac a creature". Or is it that you want people to just plain get game loses for every mistake? Heck by the time you hit top 8 it'll probably be the 8 guys that were lucky enough to not make a mistake.
They did catch him. It was pointed out in the chat when the video was live, a judge at the store was alerted, and (if you turn up your volume high enough, you can hear) the player was disqualified.
In other words: Exactly what is supposed to happen in these circumstances.
Hrm. I know misrepresenting the board state or what a card does to an opponent is illegal. But it's another one of those "depends on intent" things, and of course it's so hard to know that for sure...
I believed it myself until I made that move against a lvl 2 judge who told me I am wrong. After knowing better I didn't have the balls to try it again but it was just an example in how many ways you can "cheat" in Magic.
To be quite honest, it isn't the people making mistakes who are bad at magic, it is the people on the other side of the table that are not catching mistakes that are bad at magic. I can't say how many game wins I have gotten because my opponent did not present his sideboard, presented a 17 card sideboard, drew an extra card from x draw effect, presented a 59 card deck (usually post sideboard), or other things. However, if an opponent plays a shock land untapped, or thoughtsieze, or whatever, I always tell them "take 2 damage" and annotate on my score sheet. (-2 SL) (-2 TS) (-2 ComDam) etc. On the same token, if I were to play divination, ask my opponent "drawing 3?" and they say "go ahead" then they failed to catch my mistake, and a turn or 2 later is to late for them to call the judge. If they do, I just claim to have forgotten that it was 2 instead of 3, and that I ask the opponent to confirm my draw, and he said fine to draw 3. It was on him.
These GP and PT players that don't catch mistakes are handing the opponent the game. It is no longer cheating once your opponent lets you continue the game. It is cheating if they catch with 5 cards hidden under your leg or up your sleeve, or a 20 card sideboard. Or intentionally putting a permanent into play without paying mana cost when the opponent is looking through his hand. That is cheating, making a mistake your opponent should be able to correct you on and return the game to a proper legal play state is not cheating.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
If it was intentional and not an honest mistake, it's still cheating. Saying otherwise is like saying a pickpocket isn't a thief just because his target didn't notice his wallet was missing until he got home. The pickpocket is a thief one way or the other. Anyone intending to get away with making a bad play is cheating.
Now if it was an honest mistake and the opponent didn't catch it, then yeah, he's just kind of SOL.
Legendary Creature - Avatar
Flying, Vigilance, Lifelink
Madness 3WWWWW
If Wind of the Endless Plains' madness cost was paid, destroy all lands and creatures. They can't be regenerated. Wind of Endless Plains gains Defender.
7/7
Legendary Creature - Avatar
Split-second, Non-basic Landwalk, Shroud
Madness 3UUUUU
If Waves of the Endless Island's madness cost was paid, return all permanents to their owner's hands. Waves of the Endless Island gains Defender.
7/7
Legendary Creature - Avatar
When Confusion of Endless Possibilities enters the battlefield, target player skips his or her next turn and your life total becomes 1.
Hexproof, Haunt, Amplify 7
Madness 7WUBRG
If Confusion of Endless Possibilities' madness cost was paid, target player skips his or her next turn. Confusion of Endless Possibilities gains Defender.
7/7
Anyhow, players make mistakes, better players make less, really good ones dont let the opponent get away with game changing mistakes.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
Yep, this. It's not like people haven't used their cards hundreds of times before. How many times do you think Javier Dominguez has used Brainstorm before in his life? Maybe a couple thousand times? Doesn't make sense.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
This is true. I played at a 75 card proxy Legacy tournament yesterday and there were a few players who would have never played Legacy with the real cards (at least not right now with the cost barrier). I explained to a new player that Chalice of the Void has a trigger that needs to be used if you want to counter a spell or not. Both players need to make sure the trigger goes off (missed triggers and all). I even gave her a real life example where a player played a 1 mana spell with Chalice on 1 because his opponent forgot the trigger.
I also explained to another player the difference between Surgical Extraction, Slaughter Games, and Extirpate. All of these types of cards are cards that versed Magic players know and cheaters know when to try to take advantage and when not to. I've seen known cheaters only cheat vs. specific players while other better players said that they never cheated vs. them. (BTW, I'm not advocating whether the GP winner cheated or not.)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
I can see an opponent getting some kind of warning or penalty after a SB check is requested and the deck is too low or the SB too high, but not for actually failing to present the SB.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!