We all know that Thoughtseize is an incredibly powerful control card. But I'm curious to see how essential the card only costing B is. If it costed 1 more but was at instant speed, would people still rather play the original over the new version? For example, if this hypothetical card was printed, which would you rather play?
Thoughtseize
B
Sorcery
Target player reveals his or hand and discards a nonland card of your choice. Lose 2 life.
VS
Brain Squeeze
1B
Instant
Target player reveals his or hand and discards a nonland card of your choice.
As a followup qusetion: If you ardently believe that Thoughtseize is miles and miles better, what would a hypothetical card like Brain Squeeze have to do to make you want to play it at 1B?
I don't really know what benefits being at instant speed would bring. You're letting them untap and potentially cast something in response to your 'Brain Squeeze'. I suppose the only use of that would be to cast it on their draw step to hit the extra card? Stil, I don't think it's worth it. If you cast it on any other phase they may have just run their best creature or whatever out.
one mana black discard spells all do nearly the same thing--but thoughtseize allows you to pick any non-land card from someones hand, which is the ultimate flexibility and it nearly never misses except in the case of a full land hand. While some of these cards are situationally better, it is most often the best turn one dismantling play. At two mana---your options change, your opponent might have cast the card you really needed to pick from his hand, or it doesn't fit into a curve properly. The only discard card I can think of that people play for two mana is hymn to tourach, smallpox, and sometimes wrench mind. At three you are looking at liliana of the veil and....maybe delirium skeins but I've never seen the latter played competitively.
for 1B, I'd want something like blightning, 2 damage two cards, or 2 damage and one card--but I still might just go with seize. or seize on a 1/1 body.
instant speed discard is super limited and never seems to be that the controller picks a card--don't bother with the comparisons, its not really on the 'powers of discard' table.
Being 1 cmc is vitally important because you can resolve it when the ONLY way they can counter it is force of will and if their t1 play is the best card in their hand you can take that too. A 2 cmc spell will never let you do that. The only way I can think of to make a 2cmc thoughtseize comparable to 1cmc thoughtseize would be to have it get 2 cards (1 discard or random discard, then reveal and you choose 1) and be BB and 4 life or 3 life or something like that.
I think that you're all underestimating the value of it being at instant speed.
I think that your brain squeeze example would see play in legacy, It would be able to disrupt combos and other interactions that thoughtseize can't but you wouldn't just be able to replace your thought-seize with it. It would be a very different card.
If Brain Squeeze didn't have the "you lose two life" part than I think it's pretty close.
It's not at all close because you are giving your opponent the ability to play their 1-drop or play a non-force counter even if you are on the play.
Depends on the format. Thoughtseize is in Standard, Modern, Legacy and Vintage. I think instant speed+no life loss is about equal to adding the one colorless mana. You can kill combo, and in many matchups you don't need it T1 at all, it also makes it easier to mainboard if you want. You could play it without fear aainst aggro decks as well.
The one mana part of Thoughtseize is key. With targeted Discard like that, cheap is really the only thing that matters. Once you start going more than one mana you're less interested in selection and more interested in quantity of cards discarded (ie gaining card advantage). Instant speed discard doesn't need to be selective like Thoughtseize because the only use for instant speed discard is to strip the card the just drew from their hand in their draw step when their hand is empty (like Funeral Charm and even that's not good enough to see real play).
For a two mana... It's hard to think of a way to make Thoughtseize better but costing 2 mana. I don't think even "Draw a Card" would be enough to make it played over the current Thoughtseize... Maybe with Draw a Card it would see play but even then it still wouldn't take the current Thoughtseize's place it would just have its own place (and probably see less play than Thoughtseize does...).
Two Mana instant speed target discard is very powerful. I am not aware of such card ever being printed for that CMC. In legacy combo decks generally keep the key combo cards on the top of their library using brainstorm / ponder until the combo turn. This card just recks that plan. This thing opens sick lines of play of hitting a player when they brainstorm, or attempting to use a miracle a card, or even playing show and tell. That being said wizards will never print it. This thing creates softlocks with isochron scepter in modern. I am sure people will love to draw a card only to having it discarded at the end of the draw step.
If Brain Squeeze didn't have the "you lose two life" part than I think it's pretty close.
It's not at all close because you are giving your opponent the ability to play their 1-drop or play a non-force counter even if you are on the play.
Depends on the format. Thoughtseize is in Standard, Modern, Legacy and Vintage. I think instant speed+no life loss is about equal to adding the one colorless mana. You can kill combo, and in many matchups you don't need it T1 at all, it also makes it easier to mainboard if you want. You could play it without fear aainst aggro decks as well.
You are almost always going to want to thoughtseize t1 (if you are a deck that should be playing thoughtseize) in order to see what your opponent is doing and inform your decision making for the rest of the game. I don't disagree that the "cost" of making it instant speed and getting rid of the life loss is reasonable at 1 colorless, but adding the second mana makes the card much, much worse. Also, against aggro removing a threat with an early thoughtseize will often save you much more than 2 life. This is most true in legacy and modern, but still also true in standard.
There is only one single way:
"You may exile a black card from your hand instead of paying Brain Squeeze's mana cost."
unmask. Granted, it costs 4 if you don't want to use the alternate cost, and is sorcery speed, but it still sees 0 play. I'm not sure if making it 2 mana and instant would be enough. Maybe.
There is only one single way:
"You may exile a black card from your hand instead of paying Brain Squeeze's mana cost."
unmask. Granted, it costs 4 if you don't want to use the alternate cost, and is sorcery speed, but it still sees 0 play. I'm not sure if making it 2 mana and instant would be enough. Maybe.
I would argue an an speed unmask may be better then force of will half the time. That type of effect is extremely powerful and provides you with the exact knowledge of your opponents hand.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Legacy Decks
0USpiral Tide0U
UWU/W 'Miracle Top' Control UW
012 Post 0
Random Opponent: Playing against 12 Post Feels like trying to win in Yugioh with no super secret rares.
Two Mana instant speed target discard is very powerful. I am not aware of such card ever being printed for that CMC.
Scepter lock is already possible. They printed 1 mana instant speed discard already (along with multiple other uses since it's a charm, ie Funeral Charm) and it doesn't see much/any play outside Pauper. Oh and it was Timeshifted in Time Spiral so it's legal in modern, it's not just an old card that won't see print any longer. Heck they even color shifted it in blue as Piracy Charm.
In legacy combo decks generally keep the key combo cards on the top of their library using brainstorm / ponder until the combo turn. This card just recks that plan. This thing opens sick lines of play of hitting a player when they brainstorm, or attempting to use a miracle a card, or even playing show and tell. That being said wizards will never print it. This thing creates softlocks with isochron scepter in modern. I am sure people will love to draw a card only to having it discarded at the end of the draw step.
Generic instant speed discard wouldn't really help vs Brainstorm since they'll usually have other cards to discard. So are you just talking about instant speed selective discard? The instant speed advantage vs Brainstorm doesn't seem good enough for another mana.
There is only one single way:
"You may exile a black card from your hand instead of paying Brain Squeeze's mana cost."
unmask. Granted, it costs 4 if you don't want to use the alternate cost, and is sorcery speed, but it still sees 0 play. I'm not sure if making it 2 mana and instant would be enough. Maybe.
I would argue an an speed unmask may be better then force of will half the time. That type of effect is extremely powerful and provides you with the exact knowledge of your opponents hand.
You can still unmask t1 and get full knowledge of your opponent's hand, and no one plays it. The only advantage being instant speed gives you is letting you see 1 extra card by casting it in their draw step, and letting you interrupt a multiple-piece sorcery speed combo where they have no counterspells (which is probably, what, 0 competitive decks? It's bad against ANT cause they can stack their rituals without passing priority, and you can't get the card they infernal tutor for because, again, they wont pass priority after the tutor resolves and before they cast their spell, and finally because the deck can always flashback any card you discard - if it exiled the card maybe it would be good) It would not be better than force of will 50% of the time. Not even close. Because with force of will you know exactly what you are countering. Now, you don't know if they have counter backup, etc, but you know you are trying to stop show and tell from resolving. Casting an instant speed unmake blind doesn't have this guarantee. You probably won't know exactly what you are hitting and it doesn't have nearly the disruptive effect that force does, and you are 2-for-1ing yourself to do it (as you are with force, but again, you know exactly what you are getting with force)
Obviously making unmask instant speed would make it more powerful. It would not make it anywhere close to force though.
Two Mana instant speed target discard is very powerful. I am not aware of such card ever being printed for that CMC.
Scepter lock is already possible. They printed 1 mana instant speed discard already (along with multiple other uses since it's a charm, ie Funeral Charm) and it doesn't see much/any play outside Pauper. Oh and it was Timeshifted in Time Spiral so it's legal in modern, it's not just an old card that won't see print any longer. Heck they even color shifted it in blue as Piracy Charm.
In legacy combo decks generally keep the key combo cards on the top of their library using brainstorm / ponder until the combo turn. This card just recks that plan. This thing opens sick lines of play of hitting a player when they brainstorm, or attempting to use a miracle a card, or even playing show and tell. That being said wizards will never print it. This thing creates softlocks with isochron scepter in modern. I am sure people will love to draw a card only to having it discarded at the end of the draw step.
Generic instant speed discard wouldn't really help vs Brainstorm since they'll usually have other cards to discard. So are you just talking about instant speed selective discard?
Non targeting discard in eternal formats is almost useless, unless its repeatable or is a two for one like hymn. The power does not come from the fact that its instant, its the fact that its instant and targeted. The charms see very little play because its the opponent's choice. I have many times seen storm deck being able to beat an oppent quite easy by being able to simple trick to opponent to counter the wrong card. With instant speed targeted discard you get to hit the card that really matters on the turn it matters most.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Legacy Decks
0USpiral Tide0U
UWU/W 'Miracle Top' Control UW
012 Post 0
Random Opponent: Playing against 12 Post Feels like trying to win in Yugioh with no super secret rares.
I don't think potential advantage vs the possbility of brainstorm would be nearly enough to get this to see play over Thoughtseize.
I am not saying such a card would replace thoughseize but would exist in the same deck, possibly replacing hymn.
The proposed card is much worse than hymn, and doesn't fill the same niche at all. Hymn is good because it's a 2-for-1 and is random. This is just a 1-for-1. Duress, cabal therapy, and inquisition of kozilek are all better than this card in decks that want multiples of the effect.
There is only one single way:
"You may exile a black card from your hand instead of paying Brain Squeeze's mana cost."
unmask. Granted, it costs 4 if you don't want to use the alternate cost, and is sorcery speed, but it still sees 0 play. I'm not sure if making it 2 mana and instant would be enough. Maybe.
There is only one single way:
"You may exile a black card from your hand instead of paying Brain Squeeze's mana cost."
unmask. Granted, it costs 4 if you don't want to use the alternate cost, and is sorcery speed, but it still sees 0 play. I'm not sure if making it 2 mana and instant would be enough. Maybe.
It's also $3.50 mid on TCG player, which I assumed was from casual and EDH demand. Also, it seems mediocre in reanimator since it exiles the card. Do you have a list for reanimator that plays it? Also, I have seen many dredge lists that don't even have it in the board, and none that run it in the main. Are you sure it's not just fringe?
There is only one single way:
"You may exile a black card from your hand instead of paying Brain Squeeze's mana cost."
unmask. Granted, it costs 4 if you don't want to use the alternate cost, and is sorcery speed, but it still sees 0 play. I'm not sure if making it 2 mana and instant would be enough. Maybe.
It's also $3.50 mid on TCG player, which I assumed was from casual and EDH demand. Also, it seems mediocre in reanimator since it exiles the card. Do you have a list for reanimator that plays it? Also, I have seen many dredge lists that don't even have it in the board, and none that run it in the main. Are you sure it's not just fringe?
I did (on mtg top8), and didn't see it in a single list for reanimator, nor in dredge, but I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. I am just going to assume its fringe at best since you don't want to link anything.
Thoughtseize
B
Sorcery
Target player reveals his or hand and discards a nonland card of your choice. Lose 2 life.
VS
Brain Squeeze
1B
Instant
Target player reveals his or hand and discards a nonland card of your choice.
As a followup qusetion: If you ardently believe that Thoughtseize is miles and miles better, what would a hypothetical card like Brain Squeeze have to do to make you want to play it at 1B?
duress
blackmail
cabal therapy
despise
encroach
inquisition of kozilek
appetite for brains
ostracize
raven's crime
shattered dreams
tendrils of despair
funeral charm
one mana black discard spells all do nearly the same thing--but thoughtseize allows you to pick any non-land card from someones hand, which is the ultimate flexibility and it nearly never misses except in the case of a full land hand. While some of these cards are situationally better, it is most often the best turn one dismantling play. At two mana---your options change, your opponent might have cast the card you really needed to pick from his hand, or it doesn't fit into a curve properly. The only discard card I can think of that people play for two mana is hymn to tourach, smallpox, and sometimes wrench mind. At three you are looking at liliana of the veil and....maybe delirium skeins but I've never seen the latter played competitively.
for 1B, I'd want something like blightning, 2 damage two cards, or 2 damage and one card--but I still might just go with seize. or seize on a 1/1 body.
instant speed discard is super limited and never seems to be that the controller picks a card--don't bother with the comparisons, its not really on the 'powers of discard' table.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
It's not at all close because you are giving your opponent the ability to play their 1-drop or play a non-force counter even if you are on the play.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I think that your brain squeeze example would see play in legacy, It would be able to disrupt combos and other interactions that thoughtseize can't but you wouldn't just be able to replace your thought-seize with it. It would be a very different card.
Depends on the format. Thoughtseize is in Standard, Modern, Legacy and Vintage. I think instant speed+no life loss is about equal to adding the one colorless mana. You can kill combo, and in many matchups you don't need it T1 at all, it also makes it easier to mainboard if you want. You could play it without fear aainst aggro decks as well.
"You may exile a black card from your hand instead of paying Brain Squeeze's mana cost."
For a two mana... It's hard to think of a way to make Thoughtseize better but costing 2 mana. I don't think even "Draw a Card" would be enough to make it played over the current Thoughtseize... Maybe with Draw a Card it would see play but even then it still wouldn't take the current Thoughtseize's place it would just have its own place (and probably see less play than Thoughtseize does...).
You are almost always going to want to thoughtseize t1 (if you are a deck that should be playing thoughtseize) in order to see what your opponent is doing and inform your decision making for the rest of the game. I don't disagree that the "cost" of making it instant speed and getting rid of the life loss is reasonable at 1 colorless, but adding the second mana makes the card much, much worse. Also, against aggro removing a threat with an early thoughtseize will often save you much more than 2 life. This is most true in legacy and modern, but still also true in standard.
http://magiccards.info/query?q=o:"That player discards that card"&v=card&s=cname
http://magiccards.info/query?q=o:"That player discards those cards"&v=card&s=cname
There's a reason none of the cards with CMC more than 1 see play.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
unmask. Granted, it costs 4 if you don't want to use the alternate cost, and is sorcery speed, but it still sees 0 play. I'm not sure if making it 2 mana and instant would be enough. Maybe.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I would argue an an speed unmask may be better then force of will half the time. That type of effect is extremely powerful and provides you with the exact knowledge of your opponents hand.
Scepter lock is already possible. They printed 1 mana instant speed discard already (along with multiple other uses since it's a charm, ie Funeral Charm) and it doesn't see much/any play outside Pauper. Oh and it was Timeshifted in Time Spiral so it's legal in modern, it's not just an old card that won't see print any longer. Heck they even color shifted it in blue as Piracy Charm.
Generic instant speed discard wouldn't really help vs Brainstorm since they'll usually have other cards to discard. So are you just talking about instant speed selective discard? The instant speed advantage vs Brainstorm doesn't seem good enough for another mana.
You can still unmask t1 and get full knowledge of your opponent's hand, and no one plays it. The only advantage being instant speed gives you is letting you see 1 extra card by casting it in their draw step, and letting you interrupt a multiple-piece sorcery speed combo where they have no counterspells (which is probably, what, 0 competitive decks? It's bad against ANT cause they can stack their rituals without passing priority, and you can't get the card they infernal tutor for because, again, they wont pass priority after the tutor resolves and before they cast their spell, and finally because the deck can always flashback any card you discard - if it exiled the card maybe it would be good) It would not be better than force of will 50% of the time. Not even close. Because with force of will you know exactly what you are countering. Now, you don't know if they have counter backup, etc, but you know you are trying to stop show and tell from resolving. Casting an instant speed unmake blind doesn't have this guarantee. You probably won't know exactly what you are hitting and it doesn't have nearly the disruptive effect that force does, and you are 2-for-1ing yourself to do it (as you are with force, but again, you know exactly what you are getting with force)
Obviously making unmask instant speed would make it more powerful. It would not make it anywhere close to force though.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Non targeting discard in eternal formats is almost useless, unless its repeatable or is a two for one like hymn. The power does not come from the fact that its instant, its the fact that its instant and targeted. The charms see very little play because its the opponent's choice. I have many times seen storm deck being able to beat an oppent quite easy by being able to simple trick to opponent to counter the wrong card. With instant speed targeted discard you get to hit the card that really matters on the turn it matters most.
I am not saying such a card would replace thoughseize but would exist in the same deck, possibly replacing hymn.
The proposed card is much worse than hymn, and doesn't fill the same niche at all. Hymn is good because it's a 2-for-1 and is random. This is just a 1-for-1. Duress, cabal therapy, and inquisition of kozilek are all better than this card in decks that want multiples of the effect.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Dredge and reanimator play Unmask. The card isn't $7 on SCG for no reason.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1102830
It's also $3.50 mid on TCG player, which I assumed was from casual and EDH demand. Also, it seems mediocre in reanimator since it exiles the card. Do you have a list for reanimator that plays it? Also, I have seen many dredge lists that don't even have it in the board, and none that run it in the main. Are you sure it's not just fringe?
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Do a deck search on tcgplayer yourself.
I did (on mtg top8), and didn't see it in a single list for reanimator, nor in dredge, but I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. I am just going to assume its fringe at best since you don't want to link anything.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588