Well the thread title says the most already.
I will say directly that I know that many players dont have a problem with them.
But from experience I can say there are also quite a few people who get angry and upset if you play a couple removal- or counterspells and call your deck stupid and all that.
I mean there are people who dislike Thoughtseize and Mono-Black being big players in Standard right now.
I would really like to know whats so bad about creatures dying and stuff. It's part of the game after all.
When I was new I hated the concept because it prevented me from playing Magic.
Winter Orb+What you mentioned made my early years of playing the game horrible. This was basically "casual magic", I finally have enough Mana to for Legacy Weapon's ability so I cast Legacy Weapon and bam it gets hit with Counterspell.
Sure I know that there have been decks in the past that could look you out of the game completely with stuff likeStasis.
But killing creatures with kill spells or countering them doesnt prevent you from playing the game yet there are people who would like to scoop as soon as you tap lands in response to something.
Well the thread title says the most already.
I will say directly that I know that many players dont have a problem with them.
But from experience I can say there are also quite a few people who get angry and upset if you play a couple removal- or counterspells and call your deck stupid and all that.
I mean there are people who dislike Thoughtseize and Mono-Black being big players in Standard right now.
I would really like to know whats so bad about creatures dying and stuff. It's part of the game after all.
Because those people dont actually want to play Magic. They want to play some other simpler game that only involves creatures fighting each other.
It's just a sign of a sore loser or general immaturity, and it exists in every competitive activity. I hate to say it, but one of the big draws of legacy and modern to me over standard and casual formats is that the buy-in means most people are a little older and they like the game (and the format) enough to devote significant resources to it. The result is I rarely play against people who freak out when something gets countered, they get mana screwed, or you just get that lucky topdeck that turns the game around. I also rarely play against people who brag or insult you when they win. They are there primarily to play... sure, they're trying to win as much as I am, but they know they are going to have good days and bad days, and tend not to get upset on their bad days.
I know I get annoyed at this type of thing sometimes, but hey, you eventually learn that it's part of the game I used to hate playing against control because I thought that it took too long, but then the more I got exposed to control, the more I took a liking to it. It's a thing for starters in general to hate control because it's sometimes boring, unfun, and not fun to face at all because you're always on the receiving end of things. But I found that there's a certain beauty to piloting and facing control decks. Turns out it's not all just rolfcounter everything, there's also mana budgeting, which spells to counter and so on
Outside of the PT/GP level and their qualifiers, most Magic is more of a casual thing. Even FNMs. People on both sides of the table need to be enjoying the game or they quit playing those sanctioned casual events such as FNM. Then we have the guys playing the 'unfun' decks against each other and its really hard to gain players to events like FNM.
Simple solution, if you come across a deck you dont like playing against, scoop and move on. Dont complain about it.
Its because there just not very fun to play against they're uninteractive and make it so you can't play a very interesting game of magic, but I still love to play them.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
I wish people loved land destruction, prisons, counter spells, and strong discard that way wizards would print more. I am not sure but I find it annoying some people won't play me and say my decks are too strong... A lot of those people I noticed get frustrated when I use removal.
I only hate it when it's every card played that's a counter or removal. It makes that deck incredibly not fun to play against because I simply cannot do anything. If it's just a counter or removal here and there then i have no issue with it.
people like to see what they planned to their deck actually happening...
it's very frustrating to play against a deck that does nothing other than just shatter your dreams... lol.
Still, I think fast games with supper aggro decks are much, much worse, but that's just me.
Seriously though, I agree with many of the above posters who have been saying that generally newer players take the stance that the OP is railing against. In general, newer players play less interactive games of magic (see the concept of the GW "Little Kid" archetype that has no removal). There are multiple conceptual jumps to be made as you progress up the ladder of game complexity and competitive play, and lots of people at the FNM level have not made those jumps. They just like to play their cards, try to execute their strategy, and if they lose because they can't win the race, so be it.
However, if they never get to execute their plan at all, and then you drop an unkillable fatty like Aetherling or Elspeth, Sun's Champion, they get pissed because they feel like they "didn't even get to play". It's when they realize that their version of fun is not necessarily the same as everyone else that they can start to make those conceptual leaps.
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Evolution gave us a clock that's always winding down - Dillinger Escape Plan
If you're into metal music of any variety: The PRP / MetalSucks / Heavy Blog is Heavy
A few decks I've been kicking around: Modern: WUBRGHumans / GUInfect Legacy: LED Dredge / UW Stoneblade
I do not know, some people don't like their stuff getting messed with? I'm sure that the reasons are varied and personal. I'd note that people who are new dislike having their plans disrupted or denied. I know this because I have had the privilege of teaching a few of my family members how to play.
Focused counter or discard strategies generally need hate cards to fight against them effectively. Only very recently have effective anti-counter cards been printed, and even now, the best strategy is still to overwhelm their control answers with threats, rather than play cards that are individually merely hard-to-answer.
Discard strategies are a little different, because most environments don't enable the graveyard as a resource, so most environments where discard is extremely powerful lack any real way to combat it. So, when a fully powered discard or control deck goes up against a poorly prepared opponent, the result can only be loosely described as a game. Most players don't enjoy being slowly toyed with, unable to win but not actually losing.
Discard and counter can be matched at the highest levels of environmental card power, such as in Vintage or Legacy; however, that level of card power doesn't leave much room for the game to grow or experiment with new mechanics, so the game can't be sustained at that point. As a result, focused, optimized discard or counter strategies aren't designed into the game any longer.
However, some good examples of the genre do get printed, and they're balanced so long as they're fairly rare; however, since their rarity means their hate cards are fairly rare as well, players can feel unprepared for them. It's a fine line to walk.
I don't mind these cards, but when the deck is dedicated to one of them, it gets very boring. I played against Pox once and it was very boring. The game went on for like 40 turns before he could kill me. His win cons were either a single Nether Spirit or Cursed Scroll. And he just had to play a Night of Souls Betrayal to bash me in for 1 a turn. Good God. I understand that he has to kill my delvers but he had a couple Innocent Bloods in his hand.
I haven't played against Jund Depths yet, but it was painful to watch on stream. Oh sure, let's just watch him burn his opponent out with Grove+Punishing FIre for 1 damage a turn. The worst was when the jund depths player was against Death and Taxes and they played Rest in Peace. The game dragged out for a very long time.
I don't have a problem with long games, as long as there are a lot of interactions. It's the one action per turn thing that gets boring quick.
Its because there just not very fun to play against they're uninteractive and make it so you can't play a very interesting game of magic, but I still love to play them.
These things are the very definition of interactive; what they're doing interacts with what you're doing.
Its because there just not very fun to play against they're uninteractive and make it so you can't play a very interesting game of magic, but I still love to play them.
*facepalm*
Since when was removal and counters uniteractive? They the most interactive element of the game! They literally don't do anything unless the opponent does something first!
I dearly hope my sarcasm detector is just broken.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
A lot of casual control decks just contain far too many answers and not enough threats. When I first started playing with a friend of mine, he had a blue black deck that had two creatures, twenty counterspells, eight board wipes, and eight draw spells. Every game involved a long series of nothing happening, followed by him losing. It was the worst.
It took me a while to find any enjoyment in playing against well tuned control decks that could actually win, because the memories of not playing magic were so fresh in my mind.
Why do people ask questions like these when they know the answer is "people and play styles are different" and know it's going to result in a bunch of rude arguments?
Here, let's get the next threads covered before they're created and locked:
Why is aggro so boring?
Why is control so non-interactive?
How come counters are too powerful?
Aggro takes skill
Aggro doesn't take skill
Due to real-life obligations, I am taking a long break from Magic which may include missing the local Legacy GP. Apologies for not being able to keep my threads updated.
It's just a sign of a sore loser or general immaturity,...
Wait, are you seriously suggesting that disliking playing against a strategy in of itself makes you a sore loser or immature?
You... sure those words mean what you think they do?
People can "dislike" whatever they want. If a person becomes upset because of someone else playing the game using a different strategy, that is not a mature reaction.
You dont get to choose which strategy you play against. You get to choose the strategies in the deck you play. If you want to force the other person to play the same type of deck, then you are enforcing your views on them.
Becoming upset at someone because you believe your own personal preferences should override theirs with regard to their own deck is incredibly childish and immature.
Not specially something against you but it bothers me that people still bring that up even though it's completely untrue. The only people who can think this way are people who think that creature vs. creature is the only interaction in the game.
Read the post from mondu_the_fat on that.
That is a good guide. I have read it a few times.
That could certainly be the reason. Self-imposed rules about what is fun and what is not even though the "unfun" part is still fine and meant to be a part of the game.
People like that annoy me. As said above, removal, discard, and countermagic are a part of the game and are the hallmarks of interactivity. Part of winning in Magic is attempting to stop your opponents from winning.
People that complain about these features are part of the reason why the game has gone the direction of value-town creatures and battle-cruiser magic and why several strategies and types of cards have been killed off. It's also the reason why I stick to Eternal formats now. At least there I get to play with cards from an era when Wizards didn't cater to the complainers.
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Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy:UR Sneak and Show IUBG Team America IX Metalworker MUD Modern:UBR Blue Jund IWBX Eldrazi Processors IX Affinity IWRG Nacatl Burn IGR Tron IUBR Grishoalbrand
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I will say directly that I know that many players dont have a problem with them.
But from experience I can say there are also quite a few people who get angry and upset if you play a couple removal- or counterspells and call your deck stupid and all that.
I mean there are people who dislike Thoughtseize and Mono-Black being big players in Standard right now.
I would really like to know whats so bad about creatures dying and stuff. It's part of the game after all.
Winter Orb+What you mentioned made my early years of playing the game horrible. This was basically "casual magic", I finally have enough Mana to for Legacy Weapon's ability so I cast Legacy Weapon and bam it gets hit with Counterspell.
R/W Devotion
Mono-R Devotion
Legacy
Burn
Punishing Jund
But killing creatures with kill spells or countering them doesnt prevent you from playing the game yet there are people who would like to scoop as soon as you tap lands in response to something.
Because those people dont actually want to play Magic. They want to play some other simpler game that only involves creatures fighting each other.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
Simple solution, if you come across a deck you dont like playing against, scoop and move on. Dont complain about it.
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
GUPrime Speaker Zegana
BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
GWU Rafiq of the Many
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUBRG Cromat
it's very frustrating to play against a deck that does nothing other than just shatter your dreams... lol.
Still, I think fast games with supper aggro decks are much, much worse, but that's just me.
Seriously though, I agree with many of the above posters who have been saying that generally newer players take the stance that the OP is railing against. In general, newer players play less interactive games of magic (see the concept of the GW "Little Kid" archetype that has no removal). There are multiple conceptual jumps to be made as you progress up the ladder of game complexity and competitive play, and lots of people at the FNM level have not made those jumps. They just like to play their cards, try to execute their strategy, and if they lose because they can't win the race, so be it.
However, if they never get to execute their plan at all, and then you drop an unkillable fatty like Aetherling or Elspeth, Sun's Champion, they get pissed because they feel like they "didn't even get to play". It's when they realize that their version of fun is not necessarily the same as everyone else that they can start to make those conceptual leaps.
If you're into metal music of any variety: The PRP / MetalSucks / Heavy Blog is Heavy
A few decks I've been kicking around:
Modern:
WUBRGHumans / GUInfect
Legacy:
LED Dredge / UW Stoneblade
Discard strategies are a little different, because most environments don't enable the graveyard as a resource, so most environments where discard is extremely powerful lack any real way to combat it. So, when a fully powered discard or control deck goes up against a poorly prepared opponent, the result can only be loosely described as a game. Most players don't enjoy being slowly toyed with, unable to win but not actually losing.
Discard and counter can be matched at the highest levels of environmental card power, such as in Vintage or Legacy; however, that level of card power doesn't leave much room for the game to grow or experiment with new mechanics, so the game can't be sustained at that point. As a result, focused, optimized discard or counter strategies aren't designed into the game any longer.
However, some good examples of the genre do get printed, and they're balanced so long as they're fairly rare; however, since their rarity means their hate cards are fairly rare as well, players can feel unprepared for them. It's a fine line to walk.
I haven't played against Jund Depths yet, but it was painful to watch on stream. Oh sure, let's just watch him burn his opponent out with Grove+Punishing FIre for 1 damage a turn. The worst was when the jund depths player was against Death and Taxes and they played Rest in Peace. The game dragged out for a very long time.
I don't have a problem with long games, as long as there are a lot of interactions. It's the one action per turn thing that gets boring quick.
These things are the very definition of interactive; what they're doing interacts with what you're doing.
*facepalm*
Since when was removal and counters uniteractive? They the most interactive element of the game! They literally don't do anything unless the opponent does something first!
I dearly hope my sarcasm detector is just broken.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
It took me a while to find any enjoyment in playing against well tuned control decks that could actually win, because the memories of not playing magic were so fresh in my mind.
Wait, are you seriously suggesting that disliking playing against a strategy in of itself makes you a sore loser or immature?
You... sure those words mean what you think they do?
Here, let's get the next threads covered before they're created and locked:
Why is aggro so boring?
Why is control so non-interactive?
How come counters are too powerful?
Aggro takes skill
Aggro doesn't take skill
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingPeople can "dislike" whatever they want. If a person becomes upset because of someone else playing the game using a different strategy, that is not a mature reaction.
You dont get to choose which strategy you play against. You get to choose the strategies in the deck you play. If you want to force the other person to play the same type of deck, then you are enforcing your views on them.
Becoming upset at someone because you believe your own personal preferences should override theirs with regard to their own deck is incredibly childish and immature.
Not specially something against you but it bothers me that people still bring that up even though it's completely untrue. The only people who can think this way are people who think that creature vs. creature is the only interaction in the game.
Read the post from mondu_the_fat on that.
That is a good guide. I have read it a few times.
That could certainly be the reason. Self-imposed rules about what is fun and what is not even though the "unfun" part is still fine and meant to be a part of the game.
People that complain about these features are part of the reason why the game has gone the direction of value-town creatures and battle-cruiser magic and why several strategies and types of cards have been killed off. It's also the reason why I stick to Eternal formats now. At least there I get to play with cards from an era when Wizards didn't cater to the complainers.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy: UR Sneak and Show I UBG Team America I X Metalworker MUD
Modern: UBR Blue Jund I WBX Eldrazi Processors I X Affinity I WRG Nacatl Burn I GR Tron I UBR Grishoalbrand