Not sure what a utilitarian argument is but I'm sure it's a lot of words so please spare me.
Just because Wizards has chosen to uphold the reserved list does not justify what you guys are doing. It's called international copyright law and yes if you knowingly purchase them you are breaking the law. Don't be naive, people are going sell/trade these once they get there hands on them. Even if your side constitutes a majority(and I really doubt that it does) that does not mean that you are in the right.
utilitarian
jʊˌtɪlɪˈtɛːrɪən/Submit
adjective
1.
designed to be useful or practical rather than attractive.
"a utilitarian building"
3 seconds through google
So you're happy to support an artificial scarcity created by Starcity and promoted, in part, by WotC?
If your only arguments are 'People are going to rip others off by passing them off as real in trade/sale' and 'It's illegal!' then you shouldn't be posting.
You can disagree as much as you want, but what Huang is doing is, in a way, a service to players. If people manage to pass them off as real then it levels the playing field for Legacy, a dying format gets a new surge of life and might open a portal for Wizards to print 'Legacy Masters'. Modern Masters came at a good time; Modern is fairly reclusive. The coverage of events by Wizards is focused on Standard and Sealed because that's what makes them money and that's what they want to sell. Modern Masters made them a bunch of money, got a huge turnout at Las Vegas, and got players into a new (for them) format.
A well timed Legacy Legends (read: A Legacy Legends announced now) would do alot for the format.
On the other hand, they could try and kill Legacy somehow, introduce a new format similar to Legacy, and with it a Legacy legends set.
Back to my original point though, Starcity shouldn't be allowed to suck $200 out of people for Underground Seas. They are partially responsible for the death of Legacy, though they're keeping it alive simultaneously.
I have a feeling that these counterfeits are going to be terrible quality and you guys are getting scammed by Mr. Huang. I sure hope so, it would serve you guys right for your GREED.
I have a feeling that these counterfeits are going to be terrible quality and you guys are getting scammed by Mr. Huang. I sure hope so, it would serve you guys right for your GREED.
I have a feeling you are wrong. Wizards isn't putting a holofoil stamp on their future rares for no reason. They are obviously seriously concerned about passable proxies. Not to mention we've seen photographs that prove that newer proxies are very realistic (and will be even more passable to an unskeptical eye in a worn sleeve)
I have a feeling that these counterfeits are going to be terrible quality and you guys are getting scammed by Mr. Huang. I sure hope so, it would serve you guys right for your GREED.
Whoa whoa whoa! I'm totally against these proxies, but if you're going to use the greed argument here, you're going to fail immensely.
$140 for goyfs
$120 for jaces
$180 for underground seas
$80 for forces
$30-90 for fetches?
I understand why these prices are they way they are, and I understand the desire to seek out cheaper alternatives to these prices. My hope is the game survives, proxies are quashed, and prices drop.
I have a feeling that these counterfeits are going to be terrible quality and you guys are getting scammed by Mr. Huang. I sure hope so, it would serve you guys right for your GREED.
When did we say we were ordering them?
Also nice argument etc
Please go collect your SCG paycheck.
When did we say we were ordering them?
Also nice argument etc
Please go collect your SCG paycheck.
Because obviously anybody who does not want to see the secondary market gutted so Jim can play with pretty Island proxy's at his kitchen table works for SCG. The only checks I cash from Star City are for cashing 5k's
@ Everything above on this page: This is devolving into a petty dick waving contest again guys. Come on, don't get the thread locked.
Returning to the most recent reasonable and contentful post:
Why are people assuming the existence of counterfeiting to automatically be a failure on the part of the producer? Wizards needs to support its R&D and its support networks (DCI, judge center). It also needs to organize major events and cover countless costs of regulation and overhead.
A counterfeiting business, on the other hand, does not need to come up with new sets, storylines and art. It doesn't even need to come up with a new production process, just mimic an extant one. This means that it will be capable of producing cards and booster packs for a lower cost. Hence, if someone develops a process to mass-produce magic cards without risk of litigation, he can copy anything wizards would release for a lower price.
Since the issue is one of reprinting OLD cards, none of the R&D, etc. is relevant for either group. WOTC already paid off those costs in the first printing, and it was balanced on the books under the assumption that they weren't planning on reprints.
Thus, any reprints from WOTC for old staples is pure gravy, to the same extent it is for coutnerfeiters. In fact, more so gravy, because WOTC has all the image files sitting around, and all the right card stock, and all the printers of the right weight, etc. They actually have a leg UP on counterfeiters in R&D, counterfeiters have to spend time and money getting all those details right and reverse engineering, which they haven't finished yet.
Thus, this is the window for WOTC to act, before their marginal costs DO become the same (when coutnerfeiters have perfected the process). if they act right now, they can still undercut them before they get off the ground...
Because obviously anybody who does not want to see the secondary market gutted so Jim can play with pretty Island proxy's at his kitchen table works for SCG.
is this turning into a flame war again??? cmon guys. I am not a moderator but still, lets seperate the Issues from the people.
I personally want this to come as a wake up call to Wizards. According to MaRo, they are already taking action as far as the chinese printing company is concerned.
I am not happy about the price of cards, and i kind of resent the general attitude of people who play legacy that dont want to see any new players join. I get it. Some people play legacy because it changes very slowly compared to say, standard.
More than ever i think this is our time to band together as a community no matter where we stand on this issue
WE SHOULD SUPPORT WIZARDS!! Yes! even if you think the counterfeits are the best thing that ever happened.
I want to see what wizards has to say, officially, about this topic.
Personally i want them to take measures to address the issues of supply, because they are the only ones in control of that (other than the chinese printing co. obviously)
Will we have a real "world war M" on our hands?
who knows, but let the battle not be one we wage amongst ourselves.
Which would be perfectly reasonable if counterfeiters only printed cards that are out of print. But there is little reason for them to stick to that. Wizards meddling with the older card market themselves is only going to make them focus on the new releases even faster, which will be the only ones to still hold great value.
Eh. Yeah they have a reason to stick to old cards: New cards (not right now but soon) have security features. I'm not too worried about those.
Yes, they will rapidly counterfeit any and all security measures. But probably not for 6 months - a year. All WOTC has to do is introduce something kooky every once in awhile that takes some new reverse-engineering, and they can shield their product long enough to make just about all their money from it before counterfeiters catch up.
They COULD probably gear up and overcome those hurdles. But why go to all that trouble and expense when gold is still just lying in the streets in the legacy and modern market?
Security on one side and reprints on the others catches counterfeiters in a bit of a vice. That's a viable 2 prong strategy that would work IMO.
Reducing rarity as a thing on top of that (e.g. eliminating mythics for a start) would put the nail in the coffin. No rarity would blast the coffin into space and then retro-rocket it into the sun.
The story doesn't make any sense on the delay between printing and shipping. We already know it was shut down, if it wasn't shut down completely, chatting on the internet / phone about how your still doing it doesn't make sense either. Also neither of those countries seem like they would be the first buyers of massive shipments of cards either.
I think an angry printer is playing someone and everyone else is more the fool for it.
If you were printing illegal goods would you announce your shipment days and destinations? Be real folks.
The story doesn't make any sense on the delay between printing and shipping. We already know it was shut down, if it wasn't shut down completely, chatting on the internet / phone about how your still doing it doesn't make sense either. Also neither of those countries seem like they would be the first buyers of massive shipments of cards either.
I think an angry printer is playing someone and everyone else is more the fool for it.
If you were printing illegal goods would you announce your shipment days and destinations? Be real folks.
TBH, I think this Delson Huang smelled Lion out as a snake and told him what he wanted to hear. We, Americans tend to think we can pull a fast one on people from other countries because we feel they are stupider than us or some other preconcieved notion.
It seems like they have been doing this for a while, Not only that but they know when they can smell real money in a deal as opposed to a stinky fail.
By the way, there was another thread about a natural disaster destroying someones collection. this brings to mind:
this happened to me also, I could have easily gotten into legacy based on my collection before my entire collection burned. Am I to be barred from this playing field as well? If so, Why, Wizards?
The magic bubble has been over inflated and poised to pop for years. I'm honestly surprised it took this long for someone to figure out how to make counterfeits of this quality. It sucks for sure but that's the way life goes sometimes. I've been slowly selling off my stuff for quite a while now, this just means I'm going to super increase my efforts and get everything gone ASAP, especially the expensive stuff. In the end it won't really bother me much because I've already made more off my cards than I've spent on them (that still won't stop me from trying to get the most I can from what I still have) and 99% of my games are kitchen table magic and we use a lot of proxies anyway (there's zero support in my area for anything that isn't standard or draft :-/).
Just because some people might do something unethical like unscrupulously sell or trade these proxies doesn't mean it's wrong for a casual player to obtain and use detailed proxies outside of sanctioned play, selling or trading.
There is nothing harmful or unethical about Jim buying 30 proxy unhinged Islands for $30 dollars for his kitchen table Azami EDH deck provided that Jim wasn't ever going to spend $250 dollars on basic land cards and he doesn't sell or trade the proxies.
Similar to if Susan doesn't have $2000 to spend on Legacy deck for casual deck, but instead spends $50 on impressive proxies that she doesn't sell, trade or compete with in sanctioned events. There isn't anything harmful or unethical about this.
Is it unethical? That's pretty arbitrary.
But harmful? Absolutely.
Just because at a given time someone wouldn't be able to spend X on a given card, doesn't mean that they never would in the future. However, in your scenario that is what happens. The more people that buy the proxies the lower the potential future demand is for those cards. That absolutely harms the value of those cards, and thus the people who have them.
4. So, you are basically saying "You can't afford to play Magic? Well, sucks to be you! Stop complaining."?
That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm sorry, but MTG is a luxury. You're not entitled to a luxury. Just like I'm not entitled to a sports car, even though I would like one, but I don't complain to Ferrari about how expensive and out of reach their cars are.
And if you think I'm only saying that because I've could always afford to play MTG, that's wrong. I only started again when RTR came out. I sure as hell could not afford MTG in back college(Lowyen, basically Faeries or nothing), so I borrowed decks. When my friends with built decks graduated, I quit the game, till last year when RTR dropped, because now I had a full time job. And No I never complained to WOTC when I couldn't afford to play.
That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm sorry, but MTG is a luxury. You're not entitled to a luxury. Just like I'm not entitled to a sports car, even though I would like one, but I don't complain to Ferrari about how expensive and out of reach their cars are.
And if you think I'm only saying that because I've could always afford to play MTG, that's wrong. I only started again when RTR came out. I sure as hell could not afford MTG in back college(Lowyen, basically Faeries or nothing), so I borrowed decks. When my friends with built decks graduated, I quit the game, till last year when RTR dropped, because now I had a full time job. And No I never complained to WOTC when I couldn't afford to play.
QFT. I was going to post largely what Von posted a few pages back but I refrained because I thought it would set off a flame war. Guess what: I was a kid and played Magic and I did it on a limited budget. I lost a lot. I got sharked a lot. I didn't get to go to any tournament events, except a couple of local drafts that I had to save up weeks for. I never once thought, "Gee, I wish I could short sightedly get all the cool cards for $5 and then I could be a star Magic player and win some events". I coveted Moxen and Juzaam and etc. It's something to look forward to when you have an extra bit of cash.
I see this same mentality in my other hobbies and it's always short sighted. It always starts with, "If things were a little cheaper I could do X" to "I think everything should be free" to "I hate this hobby and I'm never touching it again". Yes, money is a barrier to entry. This is true of nearly all hobbies. Money isn't just about keeping you out, however. Money means you have to be interested to play. If you're not interested enough to sink a few dollars in a month or can't, I'm sorry, nobody wants to subsidize you so you can play a game for fun. You can either enjoy it as much as you can or you can stop. If you stop, well, you probably weren't very interested in the hobby to begin with. And it's largely broke ass college kids. Broke ass college kids have the attention span of a gnat, negative EV for store owners, and in general are pretty useless until they get a job. I didn't play during college, but that's because I knew I couldn't afford it.
As for the people screaming for the reserved list and how this is what happens when you don't reprint the reserve list...what are you thinking? If Wizards had reprinted the reserved list, do you think these guys still wouldn't pop up? That there would still be people complaining about how Wal-Mart charges $20 for their 4x Badlands or Taigas and that's just too damn much and they should be $1? The chinese counterfeiters are not striking a blow for magic peasants. They are printing $$$$, and if $$$$ means $100 each cards, all the better. If $$$$ means $2 cards, then they'll live with that. After all, it only costs .00000001 for them to print it so what do they care.
I am also have a hard time swallowing these #'s. At their rate, that means some jackass in Spain paid $100,000 for fake magic cards. He must be awfully confident that he can flip them somehow, or the chinese guy is pulling our leg. We'll see.
That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm sorry, but MTG is a luxury. You're not entitled to a luxury. Just like I'm not entitled to a sports car, even though I would like one, but I don't complain to Ferrari about how expensive and out of reach their cars are.
Do you say the same thing to people who wear and knowingly purchase designer knockoffs? People do this all the time.
Buying a cheaper version of an expensive thing is smart if you just want the look or experience for cheaper.
Do you say the same thing to people who wear and knowingly purchase designer knockoffs? People do this all the time.
Buying a cheaper version of an expensive thing is smart if you just want the look or experience for cheaper.
Yes, knock offs are cheesy. And it doesn't make you smart, it makes you an idiot for spending money on junk with the right emblem.
Also, it's not a very good analogy. Magic cards are junk, we know this. It's what's behind the card that creates value. If you can't see that, then Wizards goes out and we can enjoy Legacy for everyone and no one because cards will be there but no events and no player base.
Do you say the same thing to people who wear and knowingly purchase designer knockoffs? People do this all the time.
Buying a cheaper version of an expensive thing is smart if you just want the look or experience for cheaper.
The fact that designer knockoffs are such a big business says a lot about the people that wear them. To need other people's approval that much that you knowingly wear something fake because it looks real is just sad.
The fact that designer knockoffs are such a big business says a lot about the people that wear them. To need other people's approval that much that you knowingly wear something fake because it looks real is just sad.
Uh, no. To them, buying a Gucci Handbag for 500$+ makes you an "idiot for spending money on junk with the right emblem." They want the gucci experience for cheaper. If you're saying that the gucci experience is stupid, well.... they'd probably say that spending 200$ for cardboard is stupid too.
Opinions. Opinions. Opinions.
Regardless of how you see these people. They are willing to buy knockoffs for cheaper. People like this exist in the real world in great number, and spend a lot of real money. You don't need to be an economist to see this.
Also, it's not a very good analogy. Magic cards are junk, we know this. It's what's behind the card that creates value. If you can't see that, then Wizards goes out and we can enjoy Legacy for everyone and no one because cards will be there but no events and no player base.
Gucci probably cares that there are people out there duplicating their exact look for pennies on the dollar. Things like this happen though.
It's not like magic endorses the gold standard or something. Magic got big and the real world is doing what the real world does when stuff that is not useful becomes more expensive than stuff that is. The end product is just paper with pictures and words on it, regardless of the work that went into it.
There's no debating with 12 year olds. Everything is so black and white. Go buy some fake sunglasses and be happy. I'll continue to try to support Wizards by playing at LGS, bringing in new players and buying product while you buy .50 tarmogoyfs and lol until you're bored and find something else to do or Wizards stops making new sets because there's no $$$ in it.
Uh, no. To them, buying a Gucci Handbag for 500$+ makes you an "idiot for spending money on junk with the right emblem." They want the gucci experience for cheaper. If you're saying that the gucci experience is stupid, well.... they'd probably say that spending 200$ for cardboard is stupid too.
Opinions. Opinions. Opinions.
Regardless of how you see these people. They are willing to buy knockoffs for cheaper. People like this exist in the real world in great number, and spend a lot of real money. You don't need to be an economist to see this.
Gucci probably cares that there are people out there duplicating their exact look for pennies on the dollar. Things like this happen though.
It's not like magic endorses the gold standard or something. Magic got big and the real world is doing what the real world does when stuff that is not useful becomes more expensive than stuff that is. The end product is just paper with pictures and words on it, regardless of the work that went into it.
There's no debating with 12 year olds. Everything is so black and white. Go buy some fake sunglasses and be happy. I'll continue to try to support Wizards by playing at LGS, bringing in new players and buying product while you buy .50 tarmogoyfs and lol until you're bored and find something else to do or Wizards stops making new sets because there's no $$$ in it.
Wow, you are projecting really hard. I'm not a bad guy for explaining what people do in the real world.
If you doubt me, please head over to a nearby clothing store or go on eBay. It's out there.
I'm sorry, nobody wants to subsidize you so you can play a game for fun. You can either enjoy it as much as you can or you can stop. If you stop, well, you probably weren't very interested in the hobby to begin with. And it's largely broke ass college kids. Broke ass college kids have the attention span of a gnat, negative EV for store owners, and in general are pretty useless until they get a job. I didn't play during college, but that's because I knew I couldn't afford it.
1.- Mildly offensive as I am a college student. (no i don't complain about my $150 calculus textbook)
2.- Apparently somebody does want to subsidize this game. The chinese printing companies.
3.- We are talking about little pieces of cardboard. You said it yourself. These cards cost a fraction of a penny to print. Thus, there is an artificial scarcity.
I don't want to take up too much of your attention span, but if you do a little online research into the de beers corperation and their diamond monopoly. Diamonds are actually quite common. I actually think that the analogy is quite accurate.
Artificial scarcity so that game can survive. Stuff that Wizards went through many moons ago. But hey, that entitled college attitude.
It's troubling that people can't look at this, see all the possible effects and come to a reasonable conclusion. Instead it's, "I CAN"T AFFORD MAGIC AND NOW I CAN. I CALL THIS GOOD" without thinking of the ramifications. Allso, "BUT THEY DO IT TOO" isn't a good argument.
1.- Mildly offensive as I am a college student. (no i don't complain about my $150 calculus textbook)
2.- Apparently somebody does want to subsidize this game. The chinese printing companies.
3.- We are talking about little pieces of cardboard. You said it yourself. These cards cost a fraction of a penny to print. Thus, there is an artificial scarcity.
I don't want to take up too much of your attention span, but if you do a little online research into the de beers corperation and their diamond monopoly. Diamonds are actually quite common. I actually think that the analogy is quite accurate.
3 seconds through google
So you're happy to support an artificial scarcity created by Starcity and promoted, in part, by WotC?
If your only arguments are 'People are going to rip others off by passing them off as real in trade/sale' and 'It's illegal!' then you shouldn't be posting.
You can disagree as much as you want, but what Huang is doing is, in a way, a service to players. If people manage to pass them off as real then it levels the playing field for Legacy, a dying format gets a new surge of life and might open a portal for Wizards to print 'Legacy Masters'. Modern Masters came at a good time; Modern is fairly reclusive. The coverage of events by Wizards is focused on Standard and Sealed because that's what makes them money and that's what they want to sell. Modern Masters made them a bunch of money, got a huge turnout at Las Vegas, and got players into a new (for them) format.
A well timed Legacy Legends (read: A Legacy Legends announced now) would do alot for the format.
On the other hand, they could try and kill Legacy somehow, introduce a new format similar to Legacy, and with it a Legacy legends set.
Back to my original point though, Starcity shouldn't be allowed to suck $200 out of people for Underground Seas. They are partially responsible for the death of Legacy, though they're keeping it alive simultaneously.
I have a feeling you are wrong. Wizards isn't putting a holofoil stamp on their future rares for no reason. They are obviously seriously concerned about passable proxies. Not to mention we've seen photographs that prove that newer proxies are very realistic (and will be even more passable to an unskeptical eye in a worn sleeve)
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Whoa whoa whoa! I'm totally against these proxies, but if you're going to use the greed argument here, you're going to fail immensely.
$140 for goyfs
$120 for jaces
$180 for underground seas
$80 for forces
$30-90 for fetches?
I understand why these prices are they way they are, and I understand the desire to seek out cheaper alternatives to these prices. My hope is the game survives, proxies are quashed, and prices drop.
When did we say we were ordering them?
Also nice argument etc
Please go collect your SCG paycheck.
Because obviously anybody who does not want to see the secondary market gutted so Jim can play with pretty Island proxy's at his kitchen table works for SCG. The only checks I cash from Star City are for cashing 5k's
Returning to the most recent reasonable and contentful post:
Since the issue is one of reprinting OLD cards, none of the R&D, etc. is relevant for either group. WOTC already paid off those costs in the first printing, and it was balanced on the books under the assumption that they weren't planning on reprints.
Thus, any reprints from WOTC for old staples is pure gravy, to the same extent it is for coutnerfeiters. In fact, more so gravy, because WOTC has all the image files sitting around, and all the right card stock, and all the printers of the right weight, etc. They actually have a leg UP on counterfeiters in R&D, counterfeiters have to spend time and money getting all those details right and reverse engineering, which they haven't finished yet.
Thus, this is the window for WOTC to act, before their marginal costs DO become the same (when coutnerfeiters have perfected the process). if they act right now, they can still undercut them before they get off the ground...
is this turning into a flame war again??? cmon guys. I am not a moderator but still, lets seperate the Issues from the people.
I personally want this to come as a wake up call to Wizards. According to MaRo, they are already taking action as far as the chinese printing company is concerned.
I am not happy about the price of cards, and i kind of resent the general attitude of people who play legacy that dont want to see any new players join. I get it. Some people play legacy because it changes very slowly compared to say, standard.
More than ever i think this is our time to band together as a community no matter where we stand on this issue
WE SHOULD SUPPORT WIZARDS!! Yes! even if you think the counterfeits are the best thing that ever happened.
I want to see what wizards has to say, officially, about this topic.
Personally i want them to take measures to address the issues of supply, because they are the only ones in control of that (other than the chinese printing co. obviously)
Will we have a real "world war M" on our hands?
who knows, but let the battle not be one we wage amongst ourselves.
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control
Eh. Yeah they have a reason to stick to old cards: New cards (not right now but soon) have security features. I'm not too worried about those.
Yes, they will rapidly counterfeit any and all security measures. But probably not for 6 months - a year. All WOTC has to do is introduce something kooky every once in awhile that takes some new reverse-engineering, and they can shield their product long enough to make just about all their money from it before counterfeiters catch up.
They COULD probably gear up and overcome those hurdles. But why go to all that trouble and expense when gold is still just lying in the streets in the legacy and modern market?
Security on one side and reprints on the others catches counterfeiters in a bit of a vice. That's a viable 2 prong strategy that would work IMO.
Reducing rarity as a thing on top of that (e.g. eliminating mythics for a start) would put the nail in the coffin. No rarity would blast the coffin into space and then retro-rocket it into the sun.
I think an angry printer is playing someone and everyone else is more the fool for it.
If you were printing illegal goods would you announce your shipment days and destinations? Be real folks.
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
TBH, I think this Delson Huang smelled Lion out as a snake and told him what he wanted to hear. We, Americans tend to think we can pull a fast one on people from other countries because we feel they are stupider than us or some other preconcieved notion.
It seems like they have been doing this for a while, Not only that but they know when they can smell real money in a deal as opposed to a stinky fail.
By the way, there was another thread about a natural disaster destroying someones collection. this brings to mind:
this happened to me also, I could have easily gotten into legacy based on my collection before my entire collection burned. Am I to be barred from this playing field as well? If so, Why, Wizards?
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control
Is it unethical? That's pretty arbitrary.
But harmful? Absolutely.
Just because at a given time someone wouldn't be able to spend X on a given card, doesn't mean that they never would in the future. However, in your scenario that is what happens. The more people that buy the proxies the lower the potential future demand is for those cards. That absolutely harms the value of those cards, and thus the people who have them.
That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm sorry, but MTG is a luxury. You're not entitled to a luxury. Just like I'm not entitled to a sports car, even though I would like one, but I don't complain to Ferrari about how expensive and out of reach their cars are.
And if you think I'm only saying that because I've could always afford to play MTG, that's wrong. I only started again when RTR came out. I sure as hell could not afford MTG in back college(Lowyen, basically Faeries or nothing), so I borrowed decks. When my friends with built decks graduated, I quit the game, till last year when RTR dropped, because now I had a full time job. And No I never complained to WOTC when I couldn't afford to play.
QFT. I was going to post largely what Von posted a few pages back but I refrained because I thought it would set off a flame war. Guess what: I was a kid and played Magic and I did it on a limited budget. I lost a lot. I got sharked a lot. I didn't get to go to any tournament events, except a couple of local drafts that I had to save up weeks for. I never once thought, "Gee, I wish I could short sightedly get all the cool cards for $5 and then I could be a star Magic player and win some events". I coveted Moxen and Juzaam and etc. It's something to look forward to when you have an extra bit of cash.
I see this same mentality in my other hobbies and it's always short sighted. It always starts with, "If things were a little cheaper I could do X" to "I think everything should be free" to "I hate this hobby and I'm never touching it again". Yes, money is a barrier to entry. This is true of nearly all hobbies. Money isn't just about keeping you out, however. Money means you have to be interested to play. If you're not interested enough to sink a few dollars in a month or can't, I'm sorry, nobody wants to subsidize you so you can play a game for fun. You can either enjoy it as much as you can or you can stop. If you stop, well, you probably weren't very interested in the hobby to begin with. And it's largely broke ass college kids. Broke ass college kids have the attention span of a gnat, negative EV for store owners, and in general are pretty useless until they get a job. I didn't play during college, but that's because I knew I couldn't afford it.
As for the people screaming for the reserved list and how this is what happens when you don't reprint the reserve list...what are you thinking? If Wizards had reprinted the reserved list, do you think these guys still wouldn't pop up? That there would still be people complaining about how Wal-Mart charges $20 for their 4x Badlands or Taigas and that's just too damn much and they should be $1? The chinese counterfeiters are not striking a blow for magic peasants. They are printing $$$$, and if $$$$ means $100 each cards, all the better. If $$$$ means $2 cards, then they'll live with that. After all, it only costs .00000001 for them to print it so what do they care.
I am also have a hard time swallowing these #'s. At their rate, that means some jackass in Spain paid $100,000 for fake magic cards. He must be awfully confident that he can flip them somehow, or the chinese guy is pulling our leg. We'll see.
Do you say the same thing to people who wear and knowingly purchase designer knockoffs? People do this all the time.
Buying a cheaper version of an expensive thing is smart if you just want the look or experience for cheaper.
Yes, knock offs are cheesy. And it doesn't make you smart, it makes you an idiot for spending money on junk with the right emblem.
Also, it's not a very good analogy. Magic cards are junk, we know this. It's what's behind the card that creates value. If you can't see that, then Wizards goes out and we can enjoy Legacy for everyone and no one because cards will be there but no events and no player base.
The fact that designer knockoffs are such a big business says a lot about the people that wear them. To need other people's approval that much that you knowingly wear something fake because it looks real is just sad.
Uh, no. To them, buying a Gucci Handbag for 500$+ makes you an "idiot for spending money on junk with the right emblem." They want the gucci experience for cheaper. If you're saying that the gucci experience is stupid, well.... they'd probably say that spending 200$ for cardboard is stupid too.
Opinions. Opinions. Opinions.
Regardless of how you see these people. They are willing to buy knockoffs for cheaper. People like this exist in the real world in great number, and spend a lot of real money. You don't need to be an economist to see this.
Gucci probably cares that there are people out there duplicating their exact look for pennies on the dollar. Things like this happen though.
It's not like magic endorses the gold standard or something. Magic got big and the real world is doing what the real world does when stuff that is not useful becomes more expensive than stuff that is. The end product is just paper with pictures and words on it, regardless of the work that went into it.
Wow, you are projecting really hard. I'm not a bad guy for explaining what people do in the real world.
If you doubt me, please head over to a nearby clothing store or go on eBay. It's out there.
1.- Mildly offensive as I am a college student. (no i don't complain about my $150 calculus textbook)
2.- Apparently somebody does want to subsidize this game. The chinese printing companies.
3.- We are talking about little pieces of cardboard. You said it yourself. These cards cost a fraction of a penny to print. Thus, there is an artificial scarcity.
I don't want to take up too much of your attention span, but if you do a little online research into the de beers corperation and their diamond monopoly. Diamonds are actually quite common. I actually think that the analogy is quite accurate.
P.S. FYO I love the sig banner
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control
It's troubling that people can't look at this, see all the possible effects and come to a reasonable conclusion. Instead it's, "I CAN"T AFFORD MAGIC AND NOW I CAN. I CALL THIS GOOD" without thinking of the ramifications. Allso, "BUT THEY DO IT TOO" isn't a good argument.
i think in a couple of months counterfeit cards are everywhere
thanks to DNC of Heroes of the Plane Studios for the coolest sig
vintage-WBdark timesBW
legacy-BGRJund-51/60BGR
RBBob Sligh 48/60BR
GRone land belcherRG
URBTES-54/60URB
Fun deck-BBBBKobolds stormBBBB
It takes two to fight, and I refuse to start a flame war with you, Quacker.
@shmnion: Your post just made my day. The irony.
I fail to understand why some people think they are the gatekeepers of legacy.
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control