Revised Angel is a popular blogger and GatheringMagic employee. She writes about everything from tribal decklists to the state of competitive play.
The linked article is titled "Hall of Fame 2028" and talks about the hypothetical year when a female player will be eligible for entry to the HoF.
I know this is a somewhat controversial subject, but it's also near and dear to my heart. I teach tabletop games as part of volunteer work in my community and I often worry about the day when my female students will realize the gender imbalances (and sexism) that exist in these activities.
I want to at least be able to say that women have achieved the same results as men, all the way to things like PT wins and HoF induction.
I want there to be female super stars and role models out there. I recognise that there are women positioned to achieve that status. Melissa DeTora is one such player and a personal hero of mine.
What are your thoughts on the article and its points? Do you think 2028 is optimistic (too soon), realistic (about right) or pessimistic (too late)?
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
*Wizards of the Coast takes serious realization that they have a product that both males and females can enjoy, but the awareness and interest in the product seems to only be getting to male players.
*Look into its own advertising system in order to get product awareness to more females.
*Successfully advertise to female customers; get a giant influx of female customers.
*More liklihood of female PRO players and thus a female Hall of Famer.
Same thing with Pokemon. At first, only boys played it, they realized this and advertized to girls as well, and then everybody played it. They didn't go around saying dumb stuff like, "Maybe girls just don't like pokemon or the game appeals only to boys' mentality."
*Wizards of the Coast takes serious realization that they have a product that both males and females can enjoy, but the awareness and interest in the product seems to only be getting to male players.
*Look into its own advertising system in order to get product awareness to more females.
*Successfully advertise to female customers; get a giant influx of female customers.
*More liklihood of female PRO players and thus a female Hall of Famer.
Same thing with Pokemon. At first, only boys played it, they realized this and advertized to girls as well, and then everybody played it. They didn't go around saying dumb stuff like, "Maybe girls just don't like pokemon or the game appeals only to boys' mentality."
I've seen more girls playing Pokemon than guys now.
Here's an idea; the next magic set's book should be written by a female author.
*A female player is dominant for a few years getting multiple top 8s while also contributing to the community.
*Said player gets voted in.
ftfy
It will happen when it happens. I don't see any point in trying to force the issue. Are there any hall of famers that are native to Madagascar? Do we need to promote harder in the south african market to encourage one of them to make it to the hall of fame in 2075?
While I see your point, I would estimate the total Magic population to be south of 1% for females.
Just as an example at the SCG Open in LV that I just came from, I saw probably 5 total females NOT counting Judges or side personnel. The Standard attendance was 520 something. You do the math...
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
This might be a controversial point of view, but I know I'm not the only one who shares this point of view.
I don't see why gender imbalance is even an issue. Anyone is allowed to play Magic and whether you win or lose is based on how the cards interact on the table. The cards don't care if you're male or female.
If it happens to be, by some coincidence, that the best Magic players in the world are men, then so be it. Who cares? No one is barring women from playing the game; it's not like women have to start the game at 15 life instead of 20.
To me, gender equality means that we reward the best players with spots in the Hall of Fame regardless of their gender. It doesn't bother me one bit that there are no women in the Hall of Fame and I don't care to speculate when that might happen.
At my LGS, we have a decent female population for FNM. Yes, they're mostly the wives and girlfriends of the regular male players, but they show up, they have fun, and they come back.
At GP: DC just down the road, there were thousands of people in the convention center. Outside of staff, there were maybe 20 females that I saw the day I was there. It was striking to me just how few women were there, and the ones that were stuck out big time.
Really? We are taking to feminism and equality in a card game. A card game where no bias exists. Maybe the problem isn't with magic, wotc, or the product advertisement.
Consider the following: Maybe MOST females would find more joy doing something besides showing up to FNM at your FLGS. Girls know magic exists, in fact every girl I've talked to knows of it. The vast majority simply do not care to waste time or money playing it. Occasionally you'll get the oddball who does and that is GREAT. Good, another PLAYER.
This seems to be just another case of white knights running to the side of their idealistic waifu. Beta tactics, bros.
A woman will win when she draws the right cards and makes the right decisions with the right deck. Just like any other champion or hall of famer. Whether someone has a ****** or a ***** is not something to be taken into consideration when crowning a champion.
Have you ever smelled a room in which a PTQ takes place?
That smell there is why there are no women in competitive magic
This is SO true. Women are not as "tolerant" of horrible smells as guys are.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Really? We are taking to feminism and equality in a card game. A card game where no bias exists. Maybe the problem isn't with magic, wotc, or the product advertisement.
Consider the following: Maybe MOST females would find more joy doing something besides showing up to FNM at your FLGS. Girls know magic exists, in fact every girl I've talked to knows of it. The vast majority simply do not care to waste time or money playing it. Occasionally you'll get the oddball who does and that is GREAT. Good, another PLAYER.
This seems to be just another case of white knights running to the side of their idealistic waifu. Beta tactics, bros.
A woman will win when she draws the right cards and makes the right decisions with the right deck. Just like any other champion or hall of famer. Whether someone has a ****** or a ***** is not something to be taken into consideration when crowning a champion.
*gets off soap box*
Thank you. Seriously guys, when a woman starts top 8-ing GPs and earning good results on the Pro Tour, then they should be considered. What inequality exists that limits women doing as well as men in Magic? Stigma--please. The smell--hygienic male players put up with the same ****. Price--it's the same. There's no reason a woman hasn't achieved as much as a man except for the fact that a woman hasn't earned it yet.
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Currently playing:
Standard: N/A
Modern: AffinityWR, Delver WUR
Legacy: High TideU, ZombiesWBRG, 12post UG, Delver UR
Thank you. Seriously guys, when a woman starts top 8-ing GPs and earning good results on the Pro Tour, then they should be considered. What inequality exists that limits women doing as well as men in Magic? Stigma--please. The smell--hygienic male players put up with the same ****. Price--it's the same. There's no reason a woman hasn't achieved as much as a man except for the fact that a woman hasn't earned it yet.
There are ways to exclude women beyond merely having a funk in the conference hall.
Then you'll need to explain these "ways to exclude" beyond simple lack of interest for a majority of the gender.
Sexual harassment. That seems pretty obvious. Do you actually need a list? It can't be possible that you're totally ignorant about how boy's clubs tend to work.
Name one woman that deserves a place in the HoF based on any reason other than "she's a she".
It's totally one thing to point out that the only superlative competitors in history have been men. That's more or less indisputable - it's simply a matter of stats and numbers and cutoffs. But it's another thing to ask why that's so, and if it cannot somehow be changed. Since most people here seem to be of the opinion that women are totally capable of competing at the highest level, there's no reason they shouldn't be.
Many posters are arguing that women, as a gender, are inherently uninterested in Magic - they just don't want to play it. Given how many times that's been said about how many, many, many other male-dominated activities, and how many times that's been proven wrong, I strongly, strongly doubt that's the reason women aren't playing Magic now.
Revised Angel is a popular blogger and GatheringMagic employee. She writes about everything from tribal decklists to the state of competitive play.
The linked article is titled "Hall of Fame 2028" and talks about the hypothetical year when a female player will be eligible for entry to the HoF.
I know this is a somewhat controversial subject, but it's also near and dear to my heart. I teach tabletop games as part of volunteer work in my community and I often worry about the day when my female students will realize the gender imbalances (and sexism) that exist in these activities.
I want to at least be able to say that women have achieved the same results as men, all the way to things like PT wins and HoF induction.
I want there to be female super stars and role models out there. I recognise that there are women positioned to achieve that status. Melissa DeTora is one such player and a personal hero of mine.
What are your thoughts on the article and its points? Do you think 2028 is optimistic (too soon), realistic (about right) or pessimistic (too late)?
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
*Wizards of the Coast takes serious realization that they have a product that both males and females can enjoy, but the awareness and interest in the product seems to only be getting to male players.
*Look into its own advertising system in order to get product awareness to more females.
*Successfully advertise to female customers; get a giant influx of female customers.
*More liklihood of female PRO players and thus a female Hall of Famer.
Same thing with Pokemon. At first, only boys played it, they realized this and advertized to girls as well, and then everybody played it. They didn't go around saying dumb stuff like, "Maybe girls just don't like pokemon or the game appeals only to boys' mentality."
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
I've seen more girls playing Pokemon than guys now.
Here's an idea; the next magic set's book should be written by a female author.
There's nothing stopping a woman from becoming a Magic hall of famer at some point. I don't see the point in willfully speculating when.
ftfy
It will happen when it happens. I don't see any point in trying to force the issue. Are there any hall of famers that are native to Madagascar? Do we need to promote harder in the south african market to encourage one of them to make it to the hall of fame in 2075?
Is 50% of the world's population from Madagascar?
This isn't a matter of equality. HoF has to be earned, its not a decision anyone makes.
While I see your point, I would estimate the total Magic population to be south of 1% for females.
Just as an example at the SCG Open in LV that I just came from, I saw probably 5 total females NOT counting Judges or side personnel. The Standard attendance was 520 something. You do the math...
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I don't see why gender imbalance is even an issue. Anyone is allowed to play Magic and whether you win or lose is based on how the cards interact on the table. The cards don't care if you're male or female.
If it happens to be, by some coincidence, that the best Magic players in the world are men, then so be it. Who cares? No one is barring women from playing the game; it's not like women have to start the game at 15 life instead of 20.
To me, gender equality means that we reward the best players with spots in the Hall of Fame regardless of their gender. It doesn't bother me one bit that there are no women in the Hall of Fame and I don't care to speculate when that might happen.
I bet it will be!
But I think we will eventually have a girl who is in the HoF and when it happens I think it will be good for the game.
Honestly the gender of players is one of if not the least important thing I care about when playing with someone.
At GP: DC just down the road, there were thousands of people in the convention center. Outside of staff, there were maybe 20 females that I saw the day I was there. It was striking to me just how few women were there, and the ones that were stuck out big time.
That smell there is why there are no women in competitive magic
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
Hey now, we've come a long way in terms of equality. Don't go around telling women they can't be as disgusting as men.
Consider the following: Maybe MOST females would find more joy doing something besides showing up to FNM at your FLGS. Girls know magic exists, in fact every girl I've talked to knows of it. The vast majority simply do not care to waste time or money playing it. Occasionally you'll get the oddball who does and that is GREAT. Good, another PLAYER.
This seems to be just another case of white knights running to the side of their idealistic waifu. Beta tactics, bros.
A woman will win when she draws the right cards and makes the right decisions with the right deck. Just like any other champion or hall of famer. Whether someone has a ****** or a ***** is not something to be taken into consideration when crowning a champion.
*gets off soap box*
This is SO true. Women are not as "tolerant" of horrible smells as guys are.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Thank you. Seriously guys, when a woman starts top 8-ing GPs and earning good results on the Pro Tour, then they should be considered. What inequality exists that limits women doing as well as men in Magic? Stigma--please. The smell--hygienic male players put up with the same ****. Price--it's the same. There's no reason a woman hasn't achieved as much as a man except for the fact that a woman hasn't earned it yet.
Standard: N/A
Modern: AffinityWR, Delver WUR
Legacy: High TideU, ZombiesWBRG, 12post UG, Delver UR
There are ways to exclude women beyond merely having a funk in the conference hall.
Claiming conspiracy will get us nowhere.
I'm not claiming conspiracy in the slightest way.
Then you'll need to explain these "ways to exclude" beyond simple lack of interest for a majority of the gender.
Name one woman that deserves a place in the HoF based on any reason other than "she's a she".
Sexual harassment. That seems pretty obvious. Do you actually need a list? It can't be possible that you're totally ignorant about how boy's clubs tend to work.
It's totally one thing to point out that the only superlative competitors in history have been men. That's more or less indisputable - it's simply a matter of stats and numbers and cutoffs. But it's another thing to ask why that's so, and if it cannot somehow be changed. Since most people here seem to be of the opinion that women are totally capable of competing at the highest level, there's no reason they shouldn't be.
Many posters are arguing that women, as a gender, are inherently uninterested in Magic - they just don't want to play it. Given how many times that's been said about how many, many, many other male-dominated activities, and how many times that's been proven wrong, I strongly, strongly doubt that's the reason women aren't playing Magic now.