This is just something I've been mulling over as I go about brewing up EDH decks. Of course we have Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord as a G/B zombie legend, but we have many more in U/B/R - Thraximundar, Lord of Tresserhorn, and Sedris, the Traitor King to name a few. And with the recently printed Nekusar, the Mindrazer, it seems clear WotC still likes the idea of zombies in U/B/R and is going to keep printing them.
Anywho, when I think of zombies, I think of two things: (1) fleshy creatures, who are (2) dead. G/B covers these bases pretty well. Including R seems a little off to me, but I guess I can see it. Impulsivity and chaos overlap a lot with zombies. Fine. But the inclusion of U seems the strangest to me. Zombies that have learned to manipulate logic and technology?
Anywho, I was just wondering what others' thoughts were. I would like to see a lot more support for zombies just within the G/B part of the color pie, but as of right now it's pretty hard to get away from running R or U if you want to run zombies, what with all the support those colors currently offer.
Why on earth with a zombie be green, the color of _natural_ things?
Zombies that have learned to manipulate logic and technology?
They didn't "learn" to manipulate tech. They used tech to _become_ undead, and obviously someone planning to do that would want their intellect intact. They were blue _before_ they became zombies (or liches). If you notice, the gold zombies are all legends -- they're well above and beyond the mindless undead.
Well, the thing is that green is all about the natural order. Zombies are pretty much the opposite. Something's reached the end of its life but its carrying on regardless.
Also, its worth noting that the difference isn't that big between Red and Green. 19 red, 14 green, 1 mono colour each.
Also, mono blue zombies aren't your day of the dead type zombies. For the most part they're prometheans. So they're basically things that are corpses sewn together and animated, frankenstein style.
And for the gold zombies, they tend to represent something. Diregraf captain is because he commands zombies, regardless of whether they're mystic or scientific, Dralnu, the blue represents his quality as a wizard and therefore his ability to stay smart and give spells flashback, red is usually tied to something that lets the zombie do direct damage (ie lightning reaver who throws bolts of lightning off his body).
The Dralnu thing in particular brings up my struggle to identify with zombies having U in them. I've probably watched too much of The Walking Dead and just see zombies as dead with the urge to feed /story.
The main reason why you have blue zombies is because in Innistrad block, they wanted Monsters to be represented in allied colors. You had Spirits in blue/white (that makes sense). Black/Red was vampires (maybe red was a bit of a stretch, but makes more sense than blue/green/white as a second color). Werewolves was red/green which again, makes sense. Humans were Green/White (and a little bit in all of the colors being the non-monster type) Zombies obviously had to be black because historically thats the color they were (along with Vampires). They kind of got shoe-horned into blue as a secondary color. The idea being zombies had that whole "eventually we're going to get you" mentality which is very much a blue thing. It's a weak connection... but that's how it happened.
I wish I had the article where they talked about this. Someone with better google skills can perhaps find it.
Another thing regarding green zombies in particular. Green is usually about nature. It has interactivity with the graveyard in the sense that it does the whole circle of life thing (cards like Genesis show this). Zombies doesn't fit well into that. I can see a green/black zombie totally. But not a pure green zombie. I can see a pure blue zombie much easier. When you think of Frankenstein's Monster being zombie like, that fit's blue's theme of using science (mad-science if you will) to create living from the dead.
Flavor and mechanics-wise, the blue zombies from Innistrad all enabled self-mill. The idea was that zombies would enter the graveyard from your deck and be returned from the same zone.
The main reason why you have blue zombies is because in Innistrad block, they wanted Monsters to be represented in allied colors. You had Spirits in blue/white (that makes sense). Black/Red was vampires (maybe red was a bit of a stretch, but makes more sense than blue/green/white as a second color). Werewolves was red/green which again, makes sense. Humans were Green/White (and a little bit in all of the colors being the non-monster type) Zombies obviously had to be black because historically thats the color they were (along with Vampires). They kind of got shoe-horned into blue as a secondary color. The idea being zombies had that whole "eventually we're going to get you" mentality which is very much a blue thing. It's a weak connection... but that's how it happened.
I wish I had the article where they talked about this. Someone with better google skills can perhaps find it.
Another thing regarding green zombies in particular. Green is usually about nature. It has interactivity with the graveyard in the sense that it does the whole circle of life thing (cards like Genesis show this). Zombies doesn't fit well into that. I can see a green/black zombie totally. But not a pure green zombie. I can see a pure blue zombie much easier. When you think of Frankenstein's Monster being zombie like, that fit's blue's theme of using science (mad-science if you will) to create living from the dead.
EDIT: a lot of the other U/B or U/B/R creatures you mentioned are blue because of their association with Grixis - the identity of being selfish, willing to chase knowledge and without much in the way of boundaries. Those traits describe a lich very well - someone who wishes to extend their life and live forever through unlife, rather than someone raised to mindlessly do another's bidding.
Remember that not all zombies are unintelligent, especially not the legendary creatures. Nekusar is incredibly intelligent, Thraximundar is a general, and Dralnu is a very powerful wizard.
Thanks. These responses, in particular the quote relating something of WotC's design philosophy regarding zombies, were very helpful. I think my major disconnect probably comes from the fact that my experience with zombies has come entirely from mainstream media - The Walking Dead, 28 Days/Weeks Later, Dawn of the Dead, etc. In all those instances, zombies are the basest form of undead, devoid of any sort of intelligence, and basically just rotting, shambling flesh bags. I haven't really read/seen anything other than that in my time, although the 28 Days Later variety of zombies could definitely have R in them in MTG, what with the rage and all.
Why on earth with a zombie be green, the color of _natural_ things?
The zombie apocalypse genre is inspired by brain infections, like rabies. (Most infections actually find ways to get us to help them spread. Usually it's very subtle, though.) A deadly infection is as green as you can get: Mindless growth.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I agree that wizards really shoehorned the blue zombies in. While I can respect the idea of an occasional blue lich lord type zombie I think things got out of hand in innestrad when the hordes of brainless mono blue zombies came into existence. The golden rule of magic that blue gets everything was reaffirmed when it conquered the tribe that is in direct opposition to it's most basic strategy of mental magic and trickiness. I enjoy some color shifting, but it becomes dumb when the color shifts outnumber the better combination from a flavor perspective. We now have way too many blue zombies.
The real driving force here is the color pie. BG Zombies are only often available in sets with enemy color support. Fortunately with Theros, wizards seems to be moving in the right direction with random enemy color support where it makes sense from a flavor perspective. What they really need to do is have sets where enemy colored support is dominant not just equal. Only then will combos that really make sense like BG Zombies have adequate card support.
ps. Shards block unearth seems forced in blue and should've been a green ability: it's creature based and involves haste which is more green than blue. This would've given us more green zombies since that block had a few grixis ones.
pps. Thraximundar should be green instead of blue: +1 counters are more green than blue.
ppps. Innestrad should've been Vamps-BU Humans-UW Zombies-BG Werewoves-RG Spirits-WR Reasoning Vamps are way more U than Zombies. Humans are tricky/wizardy. Spirits are fickle chaotic.
For shards of alara grixis ability could've been pseduo gilded drake ability on critters like:
Switcheroo: When this creature enters the battlefield you may pay X which is the difference in cost between this and another target creature's casting cost. If you do exchange control of these creatures. X can't be less than 0.
The zombie apocalypse genre is inspired by brain infections, like rabies. (Most infections actually find ways to get us to help them spread. Usually it's very subtle, though.) A deadly infection is as green as you can get: Mindless growth.
While there could be a plane or planes that do that, so far in MTG near all zombies are magic/engineering creations, and these zombies are truly "un"-dead, not living hosts taken over by parasites. Even in an infection case, black usually gets the "disease" flavored magic and there's very little of it in green.
Well, the thing is that green is all about the natural order. Zombies are pretty much the opposite. Something's reached the end of its life but its carrying on regardless.
Also, its worth noting that the difference isn't that big between Red and Green. 19 red, 14 green, 1 mono colour each.
Also, mono blue zombies aren't your day of the dead type zombies. For the most part they're prometheans. So they're basically things that are corpses sewn together and animated, frankenstein style.
And for the gold zombies, they tend to represent something. Diregraf captain is because he commands zombies, regardless of whether they're mystic or scientific, Dralnu, the blue represents his quality as a wizard and therefore his ability to stay smart and give spells flashback, red is usually tied to something that lets the zombie do direct damage (ie lightning reaver who throws bolts of lightning off his body).
The Dralnu thing in particular brings up my struggle to identify with zombies having U in them. I've probably watched too much of The Walking Dead and just see zombies as dead with the urge to feed /story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mondu_the_fat
Why on earth with a zombie be green, the color of _natural_ things?
Jarad seems like a good example to me. The G in him is the Elf part, the B in him is the dead/reanimated part.
Look at the forsaken in World of Warcraft. Then you'll see zombies from a whole different view.
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Modern: U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
Look at the forsaken in World of Warcraft. Then you'll see zombies from a whole different view.
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Hmm... I'm not exactly sure how I'd relate Sylvannas and her crew to the MTG color pie. (I love Sylvannas, btw). The control that the Lich King had over his minions is definitely a very Blue element. What about everything they've done post-freeing themselves from the Lich King's command? Engineering plague? Utilizing Valkyrie to raise new Forsaken? I guess that's all well within U/B as well.
Zombies created by Magic or plain circumstance (think virus-type) are Black. They are your typical shambling, just woke from the grave types.
Zombies built by science are Blue. There is still something magical about their resurrection but you are thinking Dr. Frankenstein over an average necromancer. They are built to be better and stronger than a normal zombie. They can still be mindless but they will be tougher to kill than your run of the mill zombie. Innistrad's blue zombies represent the building of a better zombie by exiling dead creatures or milling them from your library.
Legendary Zombies are usually powerful beings that were specifically made into Zombies either through their own power or someone else's. Because they retain part of themselves you'll see colors run though from their past existance. Jarad was an Elf so he retains green, Dralnu was a Wizard so he retained Blue for a couple of examples.
While it makes less sense in terms of flavor, I do love the idea of BG zombies. Lots of returning cards to your hand, lots of returning stuff to the battlefield with counters a la Vigor Mortis and undying. Not saying Wizards should, but I would love it if they did have a set where nature has been corrupted and the blight is spreading.
Also flavor wise and in terms of color-pie green has a very strong affinity for the graveyard and bringing things back (or making use of or re-using them).
Also flavor wise and in terms of color-pie green has a very strong affinity for the graveyard and bringing things back (or making use of or re-using them).
This. G/B has a stronger ability to benefit from sacrificing and/or reanimating creatures than any other bicolor combination, imho. Most of their legends are built around it in some way. I guess that's what felt "zomby-ish" to me than U/B or U/B/R zombies that WotC prints. But the above explanations for the inclusions of U and other colors have been very enlightening.
This is just something I've been mulling over as I go about brewing up EDH decks. Of course we have Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord as a G/B zombie legend, but we have many more in U/B/R - Thraximundar, Lord of Tresserhorn, and Sedris, the Traitor King to name a few. And with the recently printed Nekusar, the Mindrazer, it seems clear WotC still likes the idea of zombies in U/B/R and is going to keep printing them.
Anywho, when I think of zombies, I think of two things: (1) fleshy creatures, who are (2) dead. G/B covers these bases pretty well. Including R seems a little off to me, but I guess I can see it. Impulsivity and chaos overlap a lot with zombies. Fine. But the inclusion of U seems the strangest to me. Zombies that have learned to manipulate logic and technology?
Anywho, I was just wondering what others' thoughts were. I would like to see a lot more support for zombies just within the G/B part of the color pie, but as of right now it's pretty hard to get away from running R or U if you want to run zombies, what with all the support those colors currently offer.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
They didn't "learn" to manipulate tech. They used tech to _become_ undead, and obviously someone planning to do that would want their intellect intact. They were blue _before_ they became zombies (or liches). If you notice, the gold zombies are all legends -- they're well above and beyond the mindless undead.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
The Dralnu thing in particular brings up my struggle to identify with zombies having U in them. I've probably watched too much of The Walking Dead and just see zombies as dead with the urge to feed /story.
Jarad seems like a good example to me. The G in him is the Elf part, the B in him is the dead/reanimated part.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
I wish I had the article where they talked about this. Someone with better google skills can perhaps find it.
Another thing regarding green zombies in particular. Green is usually about nature. It has interactivity with the graveyard in the sense that it does the whole circle of life thing (cards like Genesis show this). Zombies doesn't fit well into that. I can see a green/black zombie totally. But not a pure green zombie. I can see a pure blue zombie much easier. When you think of Frankenstein's Monster being zombie like, that fit's blue's theme of using science (mad-science if you will) to create living from the dead.
And viola, you get blue zombies in Innistrad.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Thanks. These responses, in particular the quote relating something of WotC's design philosophy regarding zombies, were very helpful. I think my major disconnect probably comes from the fact that my experience with zombies has come entirely from mainstream media - The Walking Dead, 28 Days/Weeks Later, Dawn of the Dead, etc. In all those instances, zombies are the basest form of undead, devoid of any sort of intelligence, and basically just rotting, shambling flesh bags. I haven't really read/seen anything other than that in my time, although the 28 Days Later variety of zombies could definitely have R in them in MTG, what with the rage and all.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
The zombie apocalypse genre is inspired by brain infections, like rabies. (Most infections actually find ways to get us to help them spread. Usually it's very subtle, though.) A deadly infection is as green as you can get: Mindless growth.
On phasing:
The real driving force here is the color pie. BG Zombies are only often available in sets with enemy color support. Fortunately with Theros, wizards seems to be moving in the right direction with random enemy color support where it makes sense from a flavor perspective. What they really need to do is have sets where enemy colored support is dominant not just equal. Only then will combos that really make sense like BG Zombies have adequate card support.
ps. Shards block unearth seems forced in blue and should've been a green ability: it's creature based and involves haste which is more green than blue. This would've given us more green zombies since that block had a few grixis ones.
pps. Thraximundar should be green instead of blue: +1 counters are more green than blue.
ppps. Innestrad should've been Vamps-BU Humans-UW Zombies-BG Werewoves-RG Spirits-WR Reasoning Vamps are way more U than Zombies. Humans are tricky/wizardy. Spirits are fickle chaotic.
Switcheroo: When this creature enters the battlefield you may pay X which is the difference in cost between this and another target creature's casting cost. If you do exchange control of these creatures. X can't be less than 0.
While there could be a plane or planes that do that, so far in MTG near all zombies are magic/engineering creations, and these zombies are truly "un"-dead, not living hosts taken over by parasites. Even in an infection case, black usually gets the "disease" flavored magic and there's very little of it in green.
Look at the forsaken in World of Warcraft. Then you'll see zombies from a whole different view.
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U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
Hmm... I'm not exactly sure how I'd relate Sylvannas and her crew to the MTG color pie. (I love Sylvannas, btw). The control that the Lich King had over his minions is definitely a very Blue element. What about everything they've done post-freeing themselves from the Lich King's command? Engineering plague? Utilizing Valkyrie to raise new Forsaken? I guess that's all well within U/B as well.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
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Zombies built by science are Blue. There is still something magical about their resurrection but you are thinking Dr. Frankenstein over an average necromancer. They are built to be better and stronger than a normal zombie. They can still be mindless but they will be tougher to kill than your run of the mill zombie. Innistrad's blue zombies represent the building of a better zombie by exiling dead creatures or milling them from your library.
Legendary Zombies are usually powerful beings that were specifically made into Zombies either through their own power or someone else's. Because they retain part of themselves you'll see colors run though from their past existance. Jarad was an Elf so he retains green, Dralnu was a Wizard so he retained Blue for a couple of examples.
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This. G/B has a stronger ability to benefit from sacrificing and/or reanimating creatures than any other bicolor combination, imho. Most of their legends are built around it in some way. I guess that's what felt "zomby-ish" to me than U/B or U/B/R zombies that WotC prints. But the above explanations for the inclusions of U and other colors have been very enlightening.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)