There are ways to play and win in magic that are anti-social, and anti-fun for the average player. Simple as that.
If I'm sitting down to play casual magic, the word casual comes BEFORE magic in the mindset as well! I'm playing for the experience and the people I'm interacting with MORE than the game.
The objective of casual magic isn't to win, it's to have a fun and memorable experience. Simple as that.
Casual isn't mutually exclusive with non-competitive. But the level of competitiveness should be understood and respected by everyone. If the people around you are trying to play battlecruiser magic but the spike in you doesn't like the ramp-heavy playstyle, it's pointless to piss people off and play Armageddon... save it for a table that will appreciate that.
YES, I do understand where the OP is coming from a little bit though... the hypocrisy of some 'casual' players in my area who play 'tiered' decks filled with expensive cards and combos but get mad when you interact with them. That IS very annoying, but that circles right back to the level of competitiveness not being respected.
Some people like to be a big fish in a small pond around here when they play EDH - it drove me out of the format because I learned that some of them were even cheating and stacking their opening hands in casual magic just to combo off or get a lock turn 3-4...
But LD and counters are legal tools available to someone playing the game. A game where the players goal is to win. You have X life and when that number is zero you loose. Those are the rules.
You don't win because you caused the most smiles, or got the most high fives. You won because you lowered you opponents live totals to a negative.
Why can't we have fun with those rules? It's a game.
I had the displeasure, while out of town, playing with possibly the worst EDH players in existence. Decks pimped to high heaven. All foiled, altered, guru lands, the works. I laughed when the guy with a $5000 mana base told the guy who won, his deck was too strong for the format.
It made me feel like EDH is a ******** format that has nothing to due with skill or deck building. It seems like it's more about how cool your deck is then actual performance.
"Armageddon is lame. You blew up all my terese nielsen signed guru lands!"
This had nothing to do with the rules of the game. They were playing the game to show off how much money they spent on it.
When you sit down to play magic, you're goal is to win. That's how it's been forever. When did all these other reasons get involved?
I think you are missing the point to having those alternate casual formats. For many people alternate formats are a way of being able to play a less cutthroat game. You think the people who dreamed up peasant magic did so because they wanted to see different combos than regular legacy? EDH originally was dreamed up by judges as a fun format to play after events... it had rules that included "no infinite combos"... I played EDH for years before WotC got a hold of it and the most "comboy" it got was when I cast Recurring Nightmare + good creatures or Mindslaver + Academy Ruins. My play group kept people in check by destroying anyone that started using something "unfun". If we saw a combo we didnt like we would gang up on the person with that combo every game until they changed it. Because in a multiplayer game it's in your best interest to get rid of the guy that can run away with the whole game and take out multiple players at once.
Now that does not mean you cannot play EDH competitively... That's perfectly fine. But some play groups grow their deck and play styles with each other. You cant expect them to be happy about it when you come in with a deck that is multiple power levels stronger than theirs... If their group wants to play games where they dont have to worry about Land D.... let them. In a casual setting they dont have to play with you and you dont have to play with them. If they dont like the way you play you have to deal with it by either being ok with not playing or by playing by their rules.
That's how it's been forever. When did all these other reasons get involved?
(In regards to winning)
Well, that's not entirely true. Since the beginning of the game, people have been interested in it for lots of different reasons. Building decks, collecting the cards, enjoying the artwork, these were actually the MAIN reason why most people I know got into the game.
Winning was secondary. In fact, I'd wager that the 'competitive' players of the game have been a minority compared to the kitchen tablers, the artwork admirers, the casual deckbuilders, the flavor junkies, etc. since the beginning.
The game IS very fun when everyone is fully knowledgeable and playing to the utmost to win. But that can get exhausting and I know for a fact most casual players aren't interested in that.
Recently the LGS I go to frequently has started to run a competitive event that costs $10, and a free event that people are playing only for the promos. There is a nice group that enjoy the competitive FNM, about 20 or so people that will pay to play and play top end decks. But the turn out for the free FNM was just unexpected. 40-60 people showing up, playing home brew decks having fun.
There is nothing wrong to play to win, just remember not everyone is playing for the same reasons. There is a time and place for everything.
I'm not trying to enforce anything besides the basic design of the game; To win. That is and will always be the basis of magic the gathering. When you sit down against a stranger, your wife, your best friend, the planet saturn, or god. it doesn't matter. The object of the game is to win and I obey the ban lists and format rules I'm playing in to due so. You have a problem with that then find another game to play. It's not my job to make sure you have a good time playing the game. The object is to win, and I will play any and all tools legally available to me to do so. We can either have fun by exploring the endless possibilities the game provides, or wrap our tear drenched fists around it and strangle the creativity and diversity from it because; "boo hoo you you blew up my lands."
Glad you brought up bowling.
I don't own a ball. My friends do. So i have to use the crap lane provided balls when I play. They have their own balls and they payed good money for them. They also play every week in a league. I suck, but I do enjoy playing with them when I can.
Yet still, I loose.
Now lets say, I complain that using three different balls a player should be banned, as well as wrist guards.
All because I didn't take the time and effort anyone else did to get good at the game. That's not fair to the people who worked to get there. A good magic player doesn't lower his skill to accommodate. A good magic player tries to get other players to their level, so we all can have great games.
Sounds like you're looking for people to validate you.
If you want to play to win, then just do that. If people don't want to play against certain strategies in a casual setting, you're not going to convince them otherwise; most especially you're not going to convince them otherwise with this method. Which is something I'm sure you know so... then what is the point of this?
Complaining about it here just sounds a lot like "Why don't people act the way I want them to act?!" Who cares? they act the way they do you act the way you do get over it.
I think you are missing the point to having those alternate casual formats. For many people alternate formats are a way of being able to play a less cutthroat game. You think the people who dreamed up peasant magic did so because they wanted to see different combos than regular legacy? EDH originally was dreamed up by judges as a fun format to play after events... it had rules that included "no infinite combos"... I played EDH for years before WotC got a hold of it and the most "comboy" it got was when I cast Recurring Nightmare + good creatures or Mindslaver + Academy Ruins. My play group kept people in check by destroying anyone that started using something "unfun". If we saw a combo we didnt like we would gang up on the person with that combo every game until they changed it. Because in a multiplayer game it's in your best interest to get rid of the guy that can run away with the whole game and take out multiple players at once.
Now that does not mean you cannot play EDH competitively... That's perfectly fine. But some play groups grow their deck and play styles with each other. You cant expect them to be happy about it when you come in with a deck that is multiple power levels stronger than theirs... If their group wants to play games where they dont have to worry about Land D.... let them. In a casual setting they dont have to play with you and you dont have to play with them. If they dont like the way you play you have to deal with it by either being ok with not playing or by playing by their rules.
Good post.
I built a tribal hydra deck just to play with an amazing group I met because I knew my stax nonsense would turn them off. Then an amazing thing happened. They asked me play my cut thought decks. Guess what, I didn't win and didn't ruin the night. It was like them getting their first shot. "wow that wasn't that bad."
I just would like people to have a more open mind about the game and realize the object is to win and everyone evolved is trying to do that. If you loose to some new strategy, don't see that as a a negative. Hit the lab, have fun re tooling, and then show back up knowing you have answers. Also, ask the person who beat you what would work against them. Most players will give you advice on how to combat their deck. There's no prizes involved and people like myself who love playing the game, will gladly give advice on what to do.
Yes, the object of the game is to win.. But running over people is not how myself and a lot of respectable players want to do it. We want a beat em up back and forth battle with no punches pulled type game. It's more fun>
whats not fun is some cone scooping because i exiled his foil signed goat token.
Bowling is a weird comparison to magic because there aren't bowling strategies analogous to magic strategies involving crippling your opponents, blocking their lanes or somehow negating/countering their bowls... etc. You get the point.
Yes, the object of the game is to win.. But running over people is not how myself and a lot of respectable players want to do it. We want beat em up back and forth battles, no punches pulled type games.
Yes, I am in this mood sometimes. But, often I am NOT. And when I'm not, I roll my eyes at people who expect me and the people around me screwing around to cater to them wanting to play their stax/mld/Omniscience aka insert obnoxious combo here decks. It's not the time, nor the place.
Yet, for some reason, if you play a competitive deck with a strong strategy and tight card pool out side of a competitive environment, you're a try hard griefer ruining the game.
And I don't want to hear the "but we just want to have fun" argument.
From the sounds of it, you're a spike. You take your enjoyment from winning. There's nothing wrong with that, its where you find the fun.
I think this hit the nail on the head. My circle is purely casual. Some of us have lean, mean, efficient decks with consistent turn-3 wins. It's considered polite to warn everyone before playing one because the rest of us will be playing things like Group Hug or Thallid tribal.
If I'm at a tournament, you can bet that I'll be playing my best with the meanest deck I can manage and my goal will be to beat everyone else without mercy.
Around the kitchen table however, winning isn't important to me. Not all of my decks even have a well-defined win-condition. It's nice to win and everyone is still vying to win but that's not the point. It's incidental. I want a fun and interesting experience. In a week I won't remember who won but I'll remember the crazy decks and interesting board states and who back-stabbed who. That's how I have fun. I like to see a game develop over a long time like a fine wine until someone wrecks everyone. One of my buddies has fun by griefing people. Another has fun by trying to go infinite. Neither of them care whether they win. That's not how they have fun.
Sometimes a spike comes to our circle. And that's okay, I can accommodate all types; several of our players are former tournament players themselves. They typically win most of the games very quickly. That's alright too. Like I said, I also have more competitive decks that I can switch to. But if they can't also lighten up and also play more casually they won't be invited back, simply because it's not as fun for the rest of us. I'm willing to play some competitive games for them but they also have to be willing to play some casual. Not everyone gets it and that's alright, somewhere there is a different play group that will suit them. Different people have fun in different ways and that's a good thing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Collection:
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
I'm not trying to enforce anything besides the basic design of the game; To win. That is and will always be the basis of magic the gathering. When you sit down against a stranger, your wife, your best friend, the planet saturn, or god. it doesn't matter. The object of the game is to win and I obey the ban lists and format rules I'm playing in to due so. You have a problem with that then find another game to play. It's not my job to make sure you have a good time playing the game. The object is to win, and I will play any and all tools legally available to me to do so. We can either have fun by exploring the endless possibilities the game provides, or wrap our tear drenched fists around it and strangle the creativity and diversity from it because; "boo hoo you you blew up my lands."
Thing is, played at its most competitive level many of those "endless possibilities" are rendered obsolete. Which is part of why many players enjoy a sort of mutual disarmament agreement, allowing them to explore in that space while keeping decks reasonably competitive. I am a former competitive player who likes both sides of that coin. I enjoy my no holds barred games, but the slower games are fun too because they allow cards/plays to develop that would never see the light of day in those more competitive games.
And big picture why are you playing the game? Why are you intent on winning? Because playing and winning are FUN, yes? Ultimately you are trying to have fun, that is why you are sitting down to play in the first place, and for you winning is the primary way to achieve that goal.
But on the flip side if playing with you makes the game NOT FUN for others why should they be expected to continue playing with you? Just like you have zero obligation to tone down your decks, they have zero obligation to play a game of Magic with you.
I don't blame you for not wanting to handicap yourself, plenty of players are in that camp and that is fine. But don't act like it is the only rational approach to the game because it isn't. The most rational thing to do is whatever path maximizes your fun output from the game. And that path is going to vary from player to player. As I said previously, for me that means the most interesting/exciting game possible. All other things being equal I would prefer to win than lose, winning is fun. But I would rather lose a great game than win a boring one. Which is why I keep a variety of decks together, so that I can adjust to the power level of my deck to the group I am playing with.
If you can't enjoy a more casual game that is absolutely fine. I have plenty of friends from my more competitive playing days who are with you 100%. Most have little interest in EDH or that reason. Some still play it, just limiting themselves to competitive games only. Most just play Standard/Modern/Legacy/Vintage/Cube/Draft instead. But none try to change the group to suit their vision of the way the game should be played.
Actually, as far as I know, EDH has this social format thing, where you do have to care about other players having at least some fun.
Anyway I'm out of this.
Just another "I don't like people" useless thread which can too easily trasform into a flame war.
Again, why is it any one's job to make the game fun for anyone else? Especially at the expense of ones self.
There's a ban list, rules, and the ****ing goddamn ability to walk away from those two things if they don't work for you.
Yet, people don't. I'm sorry, but combo, stax, aggro, X-mas tree tribal, and whatever else you hate is legal. Get over it.
I mentioned this earlier, but i think EDH is dead and ruined. It's a jack off format where players are more inclined to show off their foiled out altered RUG deck then actually playing the game.
It's the bad players with money format. "I can't win at legacy so I'll just dump my 5K into a mimeoplasm deck and complain when it looses to a humility."
If you can't enjoy a more casual game that is absolutely fine. I have plenty of friends from my more competitive playing days who are with you 100%. Most have little interest in EDH or that reason. Some still play it, just limiting themselves to competitive games only. Most just play Standard/Modern/Legacy/Vintage/Cube/Draft instead. But none try to change the group to suit their vision of the way the game should be played.
I love causal games. I'd rather play at the bar with friends then anywhere else. But i don't think there should be a restriction to what you bring to that game. I'm following the rules, as are you. Your lands get blown up, then there's a winter orb. How does that change the dynamic? The goal is to win.
Yet we're all friends at the bar.
Ok, I believe casual means different things to different players. If you are a Spike and you are playing a casual game with a Timmy do not counter or use his own creatures against him. If he plays a big creature expect just a tap and swing type of game.
If you are a Spike and your opponent is a Spike then there is nothing casual about this game and your opponent has the same mentality.
In my opinion if you want a casual game make it creature focused with some defense but mostly offensive. It won't be a great deck against all types but it will be strong against decks similar in focus.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Praise not the day until evening has come, ice until its been crossed, beer until its drunk.
I only learned one thing in kindergarten: The bigger you were, the less you had to share!
Again, why is it any one's job to make the game fun for anyone else? Especially at the expense of ones self.
There's a ban list, rules, and the ****ing goddamn ability to walk away from those two things if they don't work for you.
Yet, people don't. I'm sorry, but combo, stax, aggro, X-mas tree tribal, and whatever else you hate is legal. Get over it.
I mentioned this earlier, but i think EDH is dead and ruined. It's a jack off format where players are more inclined to show off their foiled out altered RUG deck then actually playing the game.
It's the bad players with money format. "I can't win at legacy so I'll just dump my 5K into a mimeoplasm deck and complain when it looses to a humility."
So what's your problem?
You clearly don't like the format, which comes as zero surprise given your competitive mindset...so it seems like the obvious answer is to just not play it. In EDH you are talking about a format that was designed for casual play and is managed for that style of play. It isn't well suited to the kind of play you like, so why fight that uphill battle, especially with a group that doesn't share your opinion? There is a ton of room for you to play in the other spaces of Magic.
It seems like you should take your own advice, just walk away from EDH if you don't like the attitudes and styles of play it tends to attract.
I pity the poor people that have to play against you, OP, I really do. You sound like a right little joykill.
If winning is all you care about, please, don't play Magic anymore, for the sake of the rest of us. It really disgusts me when I see players who are as singleminded as ants, yet as merciless as sharks - you're not playing for the fun of playing, you're playing so that you can crush people under your deck.
I put "fun" in quotes because it has a different meaning to everyone. Winning however is the objective and point of any and all games. Tell yourself it's not, but games are designed to be won and lost.
You don't sound fun.
Normally the pursuit of leisure oriented activities (ie. not work/paying the bills/chores [though to some people even those activities might be fun]) is personal enjoyment - or "fun."
If I sit down to play a game (mtg or otherwise) it's because I generally enjoy that activity and consider it "fun."
Do I like winning? Sure, but you know what else I enjoy: a good challenge, some interesting back and forth, recovering from the brink of disaster, problem solving, etc. It can be "fun."
Technically speaking the goal of MtG is to reduce your opponents life total to Zero (or mill them). So yeah there's your win-con. Or the goal of the game.
But do not *assume* that the objective of the game is strictly the goal of the player.
(And what works for you doesn't work the same for everyone else).
If a group of players all agree that they want to stray away from certain strategies; infinite combos, mass land destruction, stax, etc, would this offend you? Our group has a gentleman's agreement to stray away from strategies that are, amongst our group, considered "un-fun".
Now, if you would play a game with our group, and we saw that your deck was outside of our comfort zone, would you be offended if we ganged up on you?
Basically, what I'm asking is if you can adjust and adapt to a situation you may not find fun, or would you scoop because we aren't playing the game your way?
Btw, a sole loser is a sore loser is a sore loser. I can't stand when somebody whines about losing to Armageddon the same way I can't stand when somebody whines about losing to a 40/40 Omnath. And if somebody starts bragging about how expensive their deck is, I might play Zur or Daggson out of spite. Whiners and braggers are never any fun, I'm with you there.
You clearly don't like the format, which comes as zero surprise given your competitive mindset...so it seems like the obvious answer is to just not play it. In EDH you are talking about a format that was designed for casual play and is managed for that style of play. It isn't well suited to the kind of play you like, so why fight that uphill battle, especially with a group that doesn't share your opinion? There is a ton of room for you to play in the other spaces of Magic.
It seems like you should take your own advice, just walk away from EDH if you don't like the attitudes and styles of play it tends to attract.
No, I don't care about loosing, I just like playing. I just have found that a lot of other people hate loosing and will blame it on anything but themselves. It's really not fun to deal with.
I pity the poor people that have to play against you, OP, I really do. You sound like a right little joykill.
A cat choking on a another cat has a better chance at pronouncing your screen name then me. And the resulting aftermath would be more valuable to the discussion.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
The thing about casuals is what they define as fun. For the majority, they think the games only fun when creatures are involved.
I have played casuals at my LGS before when they wanted to play against my legacy decks, and they consider losing to ANT on turn 4 "unfun" but me swinging for lethal on turn 4 with goblins "acceptable".
In both of those games, I won on turn 4 and he barely got to do anything. The difference is I won one way with creatures and another with spells.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cunning Spark Mage? $0.10
Basilisk Collar? $5.00
Shooting down a baneslayer angel? Priceless
Phil, you are focusing way too much on the game. The bigger problem is the lack of coping skills and meta game full of people who grew up getting participation metals instead being a "loser." Your downtown meta game is full of 20 somethings without jobs who feel like they are allowed to play the game without paying the cost of entry (Buying cards) and will blame others for their own perceived failures in life. They see you as a local villain because you want to beat them but they are all so hung up on the social aspect of the game that they focus on the feelings they feel while playing. The problem is, they are geeks and adhere to the 5 fallacies of geeks: http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
They don't have fun with you because you play to beat them - they play to reinforce the little bubble they've built around themselves to protect themselves from the meanies of the world who "just don't understand me."
They are bad at gaming and bad at EDH, but it's mostly because they use the game as a form of social protection and you don't. You don't care about the fact that their goals are NOT game related. So, there is a schism that has nothing to do with casual v. competitive. It's "social monkey huddling" v. competitive and that's a hard one to resolve.
If a group of players all agree that they want to stray away from certain strategies; infinite combos, mass land destruction, stax, etc, would this offend you? Our group has a gentleman's agreement to stray away from strategies that are, amongst our group, considered "un-fun".
Now, if you would play a game with our group, and we saw that your deck was outside of our comfort zone, would you be offended if we ganged up on you?
Basically, what I'm asking is if you can adjust and adapt to a situation you may not find fun, or would you scoop because we aren't playing the game your way?
Btw, a sole loser is a sore loser is a sore loser. I can't stand when somebody whines about losing to Armageddon the same way I can't stand when somebody whines about losing to a 40/40 Omnath. And if somebody starts bragging about how expensive their deck is, I might play Zur or Daggson out of spite. Whiners and braggers are never any fun, I'm with you there.
Not at all. I may not have a deck that could accommodate, so unless some one loaned me one, everyone was fine with trying out there decks against mine, or I had to just take my decks and go., I'd be fine.
As long as your group is up front, we're good. Communication. When I sit down with new players, I always ask; "Hey, I play stax, and MLD. Is that OK?" If not, I'll get up.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I pity the poor people that have to play against you, OP, I really do. You sound like a right little joykill.
If winning is all you care about, please, don't play Magic anymore, for the sake of the rest of us. It really disgusts me when I see players who are as singleminded as ants, yet as merciless as sharks - you're not playing for the fun of playing, you're playing so that you can crush people under your deck.
Then stay at home and don't go on the forums. Annoying morons like you are exactly why I hate casual players. You whine about "unfun strategies", "net-decking", and "try-hards". If you don't want people to want to win, play my little pony: the card game, or at the very least stop playing magic.
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
If that's your "casual," what on earth is required for "formal," a butler in livery shuffling the decks whilst a pianist plays Brahms in front of a tapestry?
I haven't read the entire thread, but I would like to throw my own thoughts about the subject into the mix.
First, on casual vs. competitive... Is it really casual, or is it social? I always viewed it as social. You can play a social game casually, but to me casual always spoke more towards the kinds of cards you selected for your deck, not whether you wanted to win or not. Competitive players will have highly tuned decklists and casual players might just be playing with whatever they had on hand versus going out and dropping wads of money for better cards. They aren't as concerned about how well-tuned their decks are, just about having fun playing*.
EDH, the main format I play, I always saw as a social format, not a casual one. Any format can have casual players; the game always made me feel like it was built around the long game, the more conversation-oriented game, and the more relaxed atmosphere. You watch some 60 card formats and the most talking done is people declaring the phases or passing the turn.
Even calling EDH casual doesn't mean you aren't there to win. The entire experience as a whole is fun, but winning is not a bad thing nor should you be made to feel guilty for wanting to do so. I have never sat down to play a game and thought... I don't want to win this game, I just want to have a truly enriching experience! ****, I'll have a truly enriching experience anyway, why not shoot to kill? I want to win, and I play to win, and if I lose it isn't a big deal and I won't cry about it, but if I win you better believe I'll do the happy dance and rub your face in it.
Kidding.
Sort of.
But still, I love to win. So what? It's fun. You get the bragging rights, the kudos, the validation that what you've been doing with your deck is working and that feels good to me. If I lose, I don't get all butthurt about it, I let my friend revel in their success just as much as I would have, and we all have a good freaking time.
*This is just my opinion about what a casual player is. Like any label, different people are going to have different opinions about what something is.
babies who don't want their lands blown up, throw a tantrum when winter orb shows up
I think this says all that needs to be said about what's going on in the OP.
These cards help you win by not letting anybody else play the game. Your other examples sound similar: counter X, counter Y, counter Z, then play your deck myself instead with necromancy" etc. And armaggedon. No. Bad cards for casual.
Control decks and prison decks simply are not fun for those not playing them. People go play magic because they want to PLAY magic, not watch some annoying person play in front of them while disallowing them from putting any cards on the table.
If I wanted to watch somebody else play in front of me, I'd go look up a pro tour on youtube, not drive 10 miles over to my friend's house in the snow and get all dressed up and bake food.
All of those strategies and cards mentioned would be completely inappropriate for any casual environment I've been in, and you should assume by default that they are entirely inappropriate for any new group you play with, unless proven otherwise.
Casual is a FORMAT just like any other, and it has rules and restricted and banned lists just like any other format. They are simply unwritten ones that come from intuition about social interactions, not from a decree from WOTC. One example of banned/restricted cards is anything at all that locks other people out of playing the game. A doom blade or two here or there are fine. Winter orb is absolutely not fine.
Treat it simply as a format where cards like those (that lock other people down) are banned. Do you complain about not being able to play time vault in competitive legacy? No? Well then why are you complaining about not being able to play winter orb in casual, where it is just as realistically "banned"? It amounts to the same thing.
It's a game that you play against other human beings. If you're not playing it in a way that you're having fun, you're wasting your time. If you're not playing it in a way that your opponents are likely to have fun, you're a dick. Therefore, those of us who don't like wasting our time and aren't dicks consider both our fun AND our opponents' fun when building a deck and making play decisions.
For example, you may enjoy things like Stasis (probably because you were beaten up a lot in school), but you still wouldn't play it if you weren't a douchebag, because it's common knowledge that it's almost guaranteed to not be fun for your opponents.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If you win, you are a try hard. If you lose you are a noob
They just want to sooth their damaged epeen
Wanna hear what I think about restaurants?
Check out my http://damancy.blogspot.com/
Trust me! IM FAT!!!!
If I'm sitting down to play casual magic, the word casual comes BEFORE magic in the mindset as well! I'm playing for the experience and the people I'm interacting with MORE than the game.
The objective of casual magic isn't to win, it's to have a fun and memorable experience. Simple as that.
Casual isn't mutually exclusive with non-competitive. But the level of competitiveness should be understood and respected by everyone. If the people around you are trying to play battlecruiser magic but the spike in you doesn't like the ramp-heavy playstyle, it's pointless to piss people off and play Armageddon... save it for a table that will appreciate that.
YES, I do understand where the OP is coming from a little bit though... the hypocrisy of some 'casual' players in my area who play 'tiered' decks filled with expensive cards and combos but get mad when you interact with them. That IS very annoying, but that circles right back to the level of competitiveness not being respected.
Some people like to be a big fish in a small pond around here when they play EDH - it drove me out of the format because I learned that some of them were even cheating and stacking their opening hands in casual magic just to combo off or get a lock turn 3-4...
I think you are missing the point to having those alternate casual formats. For many people alternate formats are a way of being able to play a less cutthroat game. You think the people who dreamed up peasant magic did so because they wanted to see different combos than regular legacy? EDH originally was dreamed up by judges as a fun format to play after events... it had rules that included "no infinite combos"... I played EDH for years before WotC got a hold of it and the most "comboy" it got was when I cast Recurring Nightmare + good creatures or Mindslaver + Academy Ruins. My play group kept people in check by destroying anyone that started using something "unfun". If we saw a combo we didnt like we would gang up on the person with that combo every game until they changed it. Because in a multiplayer game it's in your best interest to get rid of the guy that can run away with the whole game and take out multiple players at once.
Now that does not mean you cannot play EDH competitively... That's perfectly fine. But some play groups grow their deck and play styles with each other. You cant expect them to be happy about it when you come in with a deck that is multiple power levels stronger than theirs... If their group wants to play games where they dont have to worry about Land D.... let them. In a casual setting they dont have to play with you and you dont have to play with them. If they dont like the way you play you have to deal with it by either being ok with not playing or by playing by their rules.
(In regards to winning)
Well, that's not entirely true. Since the beginning of the game, people have been interested in it for lots of different reasons. Building decks, collecting the cards, enjoying the artwork, these were actually the MAIN reason why most people I know got into the game.
Winning was secondary. In fact, I'd wager that the 'competitive' players of the game have been a minority compared to the kitchen tablers, the artwork admirers, the casual deckbuilders, the flavor junkies, etc. since the beginning.
The game IS very fun when everyone is fully knowledgeable and playing to the utmost to win. But that can get exhausting and I know for a fact most casual players aren't interested in that.
There is nothing wrong to play to win, just remember not everyone is playing for the same reasons. There is a time and place for everything.
AKA a staggering majority of MTGS as it is?
- X is DEAD
- Why don't Y group of people play MY preferred way.
- Listen, you're all idiots and noobs and here's why.
- Unban THIS obviously broken card (legacy or modern usually) because I like it, and you're an idiot for not seeing that it's totally fine!
Sounds like you're looking for people to validate you.
If you want to play to win, then just do that. If people don't want to play against certain strategies in a casual setting, you're not going to convince them otherwise; most especially you're not going to convince them otherwise with this method. Which is something I'm sure you know so... then what is the point of this?
Complaining about it here just sounds a lot like "Why don't people act the way I want them to act?!" Who cares? they act the way they do you act the way you do get over it.
Good post.
I built a tribal hydra deck just to play with an amazing group I met because I knew my stax nonsense would turn them off. Then an amazing thing happened. They asked me play my cut thought decks. Guess what, I didn't win and didn't ruin the night. It was like them getting their first shot. "wow that wasn't that bad."
I just would like people to have a more open mind about the game and realize the object is to win and everyone evolved is trying to do that. If you loose to some new strategy, don't see that as a a negative. Hit the lab, have fun re tooling, and then show back up knowing you have answers. Also, ask the person who beat you what would work against them. Most players will give you advice on how to combat their deck. There's no prizes involved and people like myself who love playing the game, will gladly give advice on what to do.
Yes, the object of the game is to win.. But running over people is not how myself and a lot of respectable players want to do it. We want a beat em up back and forth battle with no punches pulled type game. It's more fun>
whats not fun is some cone scooping because i exiled his foil signed goat token.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Yes, I am in this mood sometimes. But, often I am NOT. And when I'm not, I roll my eyes at people who expect me and the people around me screwing around to cater to them wanting to play their stax/mld/Omniscience aka insert obnoxious combo here decks. It's not the time, nor the place.
Whats 2+2?
And I don't want to hear that it's 4!
I think this hit the nail on the head. My circle is purely casual. Some of us have lean, mean, efficient decks with consistent turn-3 wins. It's considered polite to warn everyone before playing one because the rest of us will be playing things like Group Hug or Thallid tribal.
If I'm at a tournament, you can bet that I'll be playing my best with the meanest deck I can manage and my goal will be to beat everyone else without mercy.
Around the kitchen table however, winning isn't important to me. Not all of my decks even have a well-defined win-condition. It's nice to win and everyone is still vying to win but that's not the point. It's incidental. I want a fun and interesting experience. In a week I won't remember who won but I'll remember the crazy decks and interesting board states and who back-stabbed who. That's how I have fun. I like to see a game develop over a long time like a fine wine until someone wrecks everyone. One of my buddies has fun by griefing people. Another has fun by trying to go infinite. Neither of them care whether they win. That's not how they have fun.
Sometimes a spike comes to our circle. And that's okay, I can accommodate all types; several of our players are former tournament players themselves. They typically win most of the games very quickly. That's alright too. Like I said, I also have more competitive decks that I can switch to. But if they can't also lighten up and also play more casually they won't be invited back, simply because it's not as fun for the rest of us. I'm willing to play some competitive games for them but they also have to be willing to play some casual. Not everyone gets it and that's alright, somewhere there is a different play group that will suit them. Different people have fun in different ways and that's a good thing.
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
Thing is, played at its most competitive level many of those "endless possibilities" are rendered obsolete. Which is part of why many players enjoy a sort of mutual disarmament agreement, allowing them to explore in that space while keeping decks reasonably competitive. I am a former competitive player who likes both sides of that coin. I enjoy my no holds barred games, but the slower games are fun too because they allow cards/plays to develop that would never see the light of day in those more competitive games.
And big picture why are you playing the game? Why are you intent on winning? Because playing and winning are FUN, yes? Ultimately you are trying to have fun, that is why you are sitting down to play in the first place, and for you winning is the primary way to achieve that goal.
But on the flip side if playing with you makes the game NOT FUN for others why should they be expected to continue playing with you? Just like you have zero obligation to tone down your decks, they have zero obligation to play a game of Magic with you.
I don't blame you for not wanting to handicap yourself, plenty of players are in that camp and that is fine. But don't act like it is the only rational approach to the game because it isn't. The most rational thing to do is whatever path maximizes your fun output from the game. And that path is going to vary from player to player. As I said previously, for me that means the most interesting/exciting game possible. All other things being equal I would prefer to win than lose, winning is fun. But I would rather lose a great game than win a boring one. Which is why I keep a variety of decks together, so that I can adjust to the power level of my deck to the group I am playing with.
If you can't enjoy a more casual game that is absolutely fine. I have plenty of friends from my more competitive playing days who are with you 100%. Most have little interest in EDH or that reason. Some still play it, just limiting themselves to competitive games only. Most just play Standard/Modern/Legacy/Vintage/Cube/Draft instead. But none try to change the group to suit their vision of the way the game should be played.
Again, why is it any one's job to make the game fun for anyone else? Especially at the expense of ones self.
There's a ban list, rules, and the ****ing goddamn ability to walk away from those two things if they don't work for you.
Yet, people don't. I'm sorry, but combo, stax, aggro, X-mas tree tribal, and whatever else you hate is legal. Get over it.
I mentioned this earlier, but i think EDH is dead and ruined. It's a jack off format where players are more inclined to show off their foiled out altered RUG deck then actually playing the game.
It's the bad players with money format. "I can't win at legacy so I'll just dump my 5K into a mimeoplasm deck and complain when it looses to a humility."
I love causal games. I'd rather play at the bar with friends then anywhere else. But i don't think there should be a restriction to what you bring to that game. I'm following the rules, as are you. Your lands get blown up, then there's a winter orb. How does that change the dynamic? The goal is to win.
Yet we're all friends at the bar.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
If you are a Spike and your opponent is a Spike then there is nothing casual about this game and your opponent has the same mentality.
In my opinion if you want a casual game make it creature focused with some defense but mostly offensive. It won't be a great deck against all types but it will be strong against decks similar in focus.
I only learned one thing in kindergarten: The bigger you were, the less you had to share!
My Trade Link
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9689206#post9689206
So what's your problem?
You clearly don't like the format, which comes as zero surprise given your competitive mindset...so it seems like the obvious answer is to just not play it. In EDH you are talking about a format that was designed for casual play and is managed for that style of play. It isn't well suited to the kind of play you like, so why fight that uphill battle, especially with a group that doesn't share your opinion? There is a ton of room for you to play in the other spaces of Magic.
It seems like you should take your own advice, just walk away from EDH if you don't like the attitudes and styles of play it tends to attract.
If winning is all you care about, please, don't play Magic anymore, for the sake of the rest of us. It really disgusts me when I see players who are as singleminded as ants, yet as merciless as sharks - you're not playing for the fun of playing, you're playing so that you can crush people under your deck.
You don't sound fun.
Normally the pursuit of leisure oriented activities (ie. not work/paying the bills/chores [though to some people even those activities might be fun]) is personal enjoyment - or "fun."
If I sit down to play a game (mtg or otherwise) it's because I generally enjoy that activity and consider it "fun."
Do I like winning? Sure, but you know what else I enjoy: a good challenge, some interesting back and forth, recovering from the brink of disaster, problem solving, etc. It can be "fun."
Technically speaking the goal of MtG is to reduce your opponents life total to Zero (or mill them). So yeah there's your win-con. Or the goal of the game.
But do not *assume* that the objective of the game is strictly the goal of the player.
(And what works for you doesn't work the same for everyone else).
If a group of players all agree that they want to stray away from certain strategies; infinite combos, mass land destruction, stax, etc, would this offend you? Our group has a gentleman's agreement to stray away from strategies that are, amongst our group, considered "un-fun".
Now, if you would play a game with our group, and we saw that your deck was outside of our comfort zone, would you be offended if we ganged up on you?
Basically, what I'm asking is if you can adjust and adapt to a situation you may not find fun, or would you scoop because we aren't playing the game your way?
Btw, a sole loser is a sore loser is a sore loser. I can't stand when somebody whines about losing to Armageddon the same way I can't stand when somebody whines about losing to a 40/40 Omnath. And if somebody starts bragging about how expensive their deck is, I might play Zur or Daggson out of spite. Whiners and braggers are never any fun, I'm with you there.
PucaTrade Invite. Sign up and enjoy the first 500 points ($5) free!
No, I don't care about loosing, I just like playing. I just have found that a lot of other people hate loosing and will blame it on anything but themselves. It's really not fun to deal with.
A cat choking on a another cat has a better chance at pronouncing your screen name then me. And the resulting aftermath would be more valuable to the discussion.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I have played casuals at my LGS before when they wanted to play against my legacy decks, and they consider losing to ANT on turn 4 "unfun" but me swinging for lethal on turn 4 with goblins "acceptable".
In both of those games, I won on turn 4 and he barely got to do anything. The difference is I won one way with creatures and another with spells.
Basilisk Collar? $5.00
Shooting down a baneslayer angel? Priceless
http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
They don't have fun with you because you play to beat them - they play to reinforce the little bubble they've built around themselves to protect themselves from the meanies of the world who "just don't understand me."
They are bad at gaming and bad at EDH, but it's mostly because they use the game as a form of social protection and you don't. You don't care about the fact that their goals are NOT game related. So, there is a schism that has nothing to do with casual v. competitive. It's "social monkey huddling" v. competitive and that's a hard one to resolve.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Not at all. I may not have a deck that could accommodate, so unless some one loaned me one, everyone was fine with trying out there decks against mine, or I had to just take my decks and go., I'd be fine.
As long as your group is up front, we're good. Communication. When I sit down with new players, I always ask; "Hey, I play stax, and MLD. Is that OK?" If not, I'll get up.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Then stay at home and don't go on the forums. Annoying morons like you are exactly why I hate casual players. You whine about "unfun strategies", "net-decking", and "try-hards". If you don't want people to want to win, play my little pony: the card game, or at the very least stop playing magic.
signature by rivenor at http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
I hate the reserved list.
Mythic rares are fine.
First, on casual vs. competitive... Is it really casual, or is it social? I always viewed it as social. You can play a social game casually, but to me casual always spoke more towards the kinds of cards you selected for your deck, not whether you wanted to win or not. Competitive players will have highly tuned decklists and casual players might just be playing with whatever they had on hand versus going out and dropping wads of money for better cards. They aren't as concerned about how well-tuned their decks are, just about having fun playing*.
EDH, the main format I play, I always saw as a social format, not a casual one. Any format can have casual players; the game always made me feel like it was built around the long game, the more conversation-oriented game, and the more relaxed atmosphere. You watch some 60 card formats and the most talking done is people declaring the phases or passing the turn.
Even calling EDH casual doesn't mean you aren't there to win. The entire experience as a whole is fun, but winning is not a bad thing nor should you be made to feel guilty for wanting to do so. I have never sat down to play a game and thought... I don't want to win this game, I just want to have a truly enriching experience! ****, I'll have a truly enriching experience anyway, why not shoot to kill? I want to win, and I play to win, and if I lose it isn't a big deal and I won't cry about it, but if I win you better believe I'll do the happy dance and rub your face in it.
Kidding.
Sort of.
But still, I love to win. So what? It's fun. You get the bragging rights, the kudos, the validation that what you've been doing with your deck is working and that feels good to me. If I lose, I don't get all butthurt about it, I let my friend revel in their success just as much as I would have, and we all have a good freaking time.
*This is just my opinion about what a casual player is. Like any label, different people are going to have different opinions about what something is.
I think this says all that needs to be said about what's going on in the OP.
These cards help you win by not letting anybody else play the game. Your other examples sound similar: counter X, counter Y, counter Z, then play your deck myself instead with necromancy" etc. And armaggedon. No. Bad cards for casual.
Control decks and prison decks simply are not fun for those not playing them. People go play magic because they want to PLAY magic, not watch some annoying person play in front of them while disallowing them from putting any cards on the table.
If I wanted to watch somebody else play in front of me, I'd go look up a pro tour on youtube, not drive 10 miles over to my friend's house in the snow and get all dressed up and bake food.
All of those strategies and cards mentioned would be completely inappropriate for any casual environment I've been in, and you should assume by default that they are entirely inappropriate for any new group you play with, unless proven otherwise.
Casual is a FORMAT just like any other, and it has rules and restricted and banned lists just like any other format. They are simply unwritten ones that come from intuition about social interactions, not from a decree from WOTC. One example of banned/restricted cards is anything at all that locks other people out of playing the game. A doom blade or two here or there are fine. Winter orb is absolutely not fine.
Treat it simply as a format where cards like those (that lock other people down) are banned. Do you complain about not being able to play time vault in competitive legacy? No? Well then why are you complaining about not being able to play winter orb in casual, where it is just as realistically "banned"? It amounts to the same thing.
For example, you may enjoy things like Stasis (probably because you were beaten up a lot in school), but you still wouldn't play it if you weren't a douchebag, because it's common knowledge that it's almost guaranteed to not be fun for your opponents.