Since last night the question above has been on my mind. I was in game three of an esper control mirror, countered my opponent's Aetherling, and resolved an Aetherling of my own. I was in no danger of being milled through card draw and had counterspell backup for a Jace, Memory Adept. Immediately after I untapped with my wincon still alive and about five blue mana sources, time was announced. Opponent had two revs and I couldn't kill him in five turns.
I was surprised and asked the organizer how long we had per round; he answered with forty minutes. I didn't argue about it, but it was a little frustrating as a draw in the first round is never too fun.
I understand that the minimum time per round for tournaments is forty minutes and in the end the round times will be based on what serves the store owner's best interest, which is perfectly reasonable. However, I feel like certain matchups in standard take, on average, over forty minutes even at a pace that can be expected at a larger tournament. If I'm not mistaken on the speed of the current format, I don't think it would be a bad thing to bring the incident up and request an additional five minutes per round or so.
How fast does everyone think this standard format is in terms in the time it takes to complete a round when compared to other standards? Obviously this varies greatly by matchup, but I'm wondering if forty minutes is a reasonable amount of time for expecting most matchups to be done. I don't really want to call out opponents on slow play for FNM, but I rarely feel like the time I have is sufficient for most rounds.
Every tourney I have been to has been 50 minute rounds, sometimes going a little bit longer thanks to turns in slower formats. Its always felt like the sweet spot, and I wouldnt exactly like rounds to go longer.
Personally think that no matter how long the rounds are timed for, you will have games that go to turns. MTGO handles this by giving each player responsibility for their own clock, instead of allowing for stall tactics like Revving for an extra turn to tie it up. The ideal scenario for FNM would involve a chess timer, but that's not the way its done.
If I play against someone inexperienced in the mirror we might approach 50 minutes, but most people try to match their opponents pace unconsciously
Sorry, but this is not always true. I have played consistent 10 second turns in Standard, only to have my opponent take 5 min. on turn 2 to play a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
A round should be 50 minutes. That's the way it is at PTQs and Grand Prix and it should be consistent. As of the past few years, "going to turns" has rarely been an issue, other than Junk Rites mirrors recently. Attacking with creatures tends to make it somewhat quick. Even Esper Control just tries to find it's Blood Baron/Elspeth/Aetherling! and then win. 24 points in 3 turns is pretty strong for the 6 mana cost creature.
I used to LOVE playing Control. I would play Control at PTQs and other big tournaments. I noticed often I would get a tie that would knock me from top 8 contention, sometimes my fault and sometimes my opponent's. Sometimes, an opponent who took too long would have beaten me if they played quicker and although that can be somewhat satisfying, it sucks to get knocked out from top 8 contention because of draws. Nowadays, the only way I'll play Control at a big tournament is if it is the BEST deck and I can beat the mirror. Other than that, I simply don't have to play Control.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
It works at a competitive level, but at FNM, the Judges are more lenient, despite some players being known for taking a long time. Sadly, our FNMs often play for $75 to $150 worth of cards for 1st place.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
The LGS I frequent for FNM runs 45 minute rounds for FNM. It gives a little time for run over and extra turns, but keeps each round really close to 60 minutes. We play 4 rounds record which means 11 o'clock we are done.
Before asking for more time, make sure you know why the owner is setting it at 40 minutes. Even if what you're asking for is reasonable, his concerns may be more pressing that yours.
For example: its FNM -- Friday NIGHT magic. Some places start a bit later, and the 5 minutes per round compounds (on paper translates to AT LEAST +20 minutes for 4 rounds FNM, if the owner is strict about it; realistically, that's an +1 or so hours), then suddenly you're closing up a lot later than you should, which means you have kids going home long past they should. If I were the store owner, I'd like to close shop before 10pm, if only to make sure my customers can still find a bus home. Some LGS are strictly confined to mall hours. I've had several instances where games took longer than they should and we reached lights out in the mall.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
My FNM has 40 minute rounds. It's not enough, since every time a match goes to round 3, it threatens to go to time. I'm currently play u/w control, but I'm a pretty quick player so it really comes down to how fast the other person plays, but I've seen esper verse esper not even finish game one in 40 minutes.
I wish there was more time, but it is a casual format. We've had enough players for 6 rounds a few times, and it can run pretty long if that happens, since we do a cut to top 8 as well. Often time's we'll have to split the top 4 just to get out before midnight (starting at 5:30).
40 minutes has always seemed reasonable to me. Granted I'm also of the opinion that the clock means something in magic. If you want to play a durdly control deck that has one win con that's perfectly fine, but if your round goes to time then you should either build a better deck or play faster.
How fast does everyone think this standard format is in terms in the time it takes to complete a round when compared to other standards? Obviously this varies greatly by matchup, but I'm wondering if forty minutes is a reasonable amount of time for expecting most matchups to be done. I don't really want to call out opponents on slow play for FNM, but I rarely feel like the time I have is sufficient for most rounds.
40 minutes seems a bit short, but everywhere I've gone is 50, so it's not ridiculously short. I haven't often gone to time in Standard, though I no longer have any interest in standard, so maybe it's really durdly right now.
Now in legacy... I know there should be a limit and 50 minutes is fair, but it can be frustrating. First round of my last legacy tourney we finished GAME 1 with 90 seconds left on the clock. Dark Maverick vs. Bant Maverick. There are just so many decisions.....
We do 50 minute rounds as well. We start at 6, giving most people plenty of time to get there if they get off at 5. It's a big military area and most people work about 30-45 mins away from the store.
We mainly do 4 rounds, one time we did 5 rounds because we had 22 people show up and play. Lately though the TO has split it into 2 different groups. One she calls the Novice League which is mainly for the newer players. If I play something new, like a borrowed deck or something I brew'd at home, I'll play in it. There is also what she calls the Challenger League, that is where the more experienced people play. With this setup we normally have only 4 rounds and finish right around 10 the night.
40 minutes has always seemed reasonable to me. Granted I'm also of the opinion that the clock means something in magic. If you want to play a durdly control deck that has one win con that's perfectly fine, but if your round goes to time then you should either build a better deck or play faster.
Eh... that's not really fair though. Control is a relevant in every metagame. And we shouldn't just automatically give control players a disadvantage just because their deck takes longer.
That being said, I'm not against a 40 minute round if there is a good reason. Perhaps the owner wants to keep specific hours. Or if it's a small tournament and 40 minutes is reasonable because you don't want 8 people in a 10 man tournament waiting for the 1 match to finish. However, in a 24 man tournament... odds are even at 50 minutes a few of those matches are going to be finishing right as the timer goes off.
I'm not sure about mall stores having to worry about time. I used to play in a mall store that routinely had tournaments ending at midnight. And we just went out the back of the store which was right by the parking lot. Maybe every mall store doesn't have that luxury but if you are an LGS that probably makes a lot of it's money on the weekends. It's a big deal if you are forced to cut a tournament short because you have to close the store at 9 or 10.
Every tournament I've been to has been 50m/r. The EDH league I run does 1h40m/r, but that's not really a tournament, it's multiplayer, and we're only doing 2 rounds. (9w league, though, so 18 rounds overall)
Once thing that might help, if extending the round time limit isn't feasible for your LGS, is to ask the TO if he could give a 5m warning before the round is over, or see if the LGS can afford a big timer so everyone can easily see the time left in the round at a glance. My current LGS has a great big wall timer with an UltraPro logo on it, so I'm sure they're available, but I have no idea on the price. It beeps nice and loud when the time is up, so everybody can hear it even during a loud and crowded tournament. (They also have a smaller wall timer with Jace on it, but it's only used when they have two tournaments running at once, such as their Legacy event coinciding with the Saturday of a prerelease. I found a copy of the Jace timer being sold on eBay for $700.)
My LGS has 50 minute rounds, but then again they've been in their mall a long time and on game nights (Meaning any sort of tournament) they rarely close at mall time.
Hell man, I've been in there at a tournament that started at 6:30 and had 6 rounds plus a cut to top 8.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
It works at a competitive level, but at FNM, the Judges are more lenient, despite some players being known for taking a long time. Sadly, our FNMs often play for $75 to $150 worth of cards for 1st place.
Then you should talk to the judge and the store owner. FNM is regular REL, but once you start giving competitive level prizes out you need to tighten up on rules enforcement. I've always hated high prizes like that at FNM because it only encourages things like stalling and cheating.
As to the original post about 40 minute rounds, I hate them. The only place in my area that does them is one store at pre-release. My theory is that they do it because they pay out their prizes based on score not standing in all events, and more ties means less product given out.
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L1 MtG judge (L2 coming soon) and Dominion tournament coordinator serving Flint MI and its surrounding cities.
The official 50 minute then five turns has never been an issue in any FNM event I've attended, so I'm inclined to agree with those stating it's fine that way. In my experience, it's usually only one or two players that everyone else in attendance is waiting on to begin the next round, so the 50 minute mark serves as a good chunk of time for Control archetypes to play out until it becomes too much.
Then you should talk to the judge and the store owner. FNM is regular REL, but once you start giving competitive level prizes out you need to tighten up on rules enforcement. I've always hated high prizes like that at FNM because it only encourages things like stalling and cheating.
As to the original post about 40 minute rounds, I hate them. The only place in my area that does them is one store at pre-release. My theory is that they do it because they pay out their prizes based on score not standing in all events, and more ties means less product given out.
It is only a very few players. They have not played consistently at our FNMs. They have also had warnings before, but no warning has escalated to a "game loss," which is not allowed at FNM for not purposely taking too long. One such player quit for quite a while, but he's back.
I've dodged playing him, so I don't mind right now. If I play him, I will ask a Judge to watch. He is a very nice guy and since many players at our FNM are new, they really don't realize that players should only take a certain time limit to make decisions. (probably because they take a bit longer than usual themselves) Honestly, it doesn't seem like this particular player is doing it on purpose, but it hurts the SAME nonetheless. I honestly don't care if it's on purpose or not; the outcome is the same. I have honestly been scarred by these types of players, more than anything else in Magic.
One of my non FNM experiences was a few years ago at an Extended PTQ in San Diego. I was 5-0 going into Round 6 of 8. I am almost ensured that I get top 8. I am playing Caw Blade. (no Jace/SfM) I play 2 consecutive Jund players who take 75%-95% of the playing time, getting me 2 draws in games which I would have won. I landed Batterskull late in the game when they had 0 cards. In Round 7, I needed 1 more turn. The player would not concede to me, despite the fact that I was paired down both rounds (5-0 vs. 4-0-1 and 5-0-1 vs. 4-0-2) I lost in the last round vs. the mirror (due to making a slight mistake being on tilt not attacking with a Mutavault and my opponent winning on 1 life), 0-1. I was so upset over this, I did not even stay for any potential prize for 9th-16th. I was that upset and I told myself that I'd never show any mercy to any players who seem like they're taking too long.
I even had my Round 7 opponent tell me, by my name, that I was taking too long when I tanked and took 1 min. on my turn. Mind you, his Jund was taking him 3 min. every single turn to make his choices while my Caw Blade was taking me 15 sec. to a long turn of 1 min. Obviously in the future, I will do everything in my power to dream crush this player and any friends who he plays with. :devil:
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
My LGS usually does 50 minute rounds. The nice thing about the smaller shops is that you end up getting to know most of the regulars there. The one time I went to turns in a FNM, my opponent was a friend, and conceded and gave me the win because he felt like he was behind in the game even though he was ahead in life totals.
Rounds are 50 minutes at a particularly regimented LGS....my usual (and pretty small) FNM spot is really just kind of "go 'til you finish" with the timing.
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"The Blessed Sleep? Ha! Wake up my lovelies, there's work to be done!"
Personally think that no matter how long the rounds are timed for, you will have games that go to turns. MTGO handles this by giving each player responsibility for their own clock, instead of allowing for stall tactics like Revving for an extra turn to tie it up. The ideal scenario for FNM would involve a chess timer, but that's not the way its done.
Chess clocks really wouldn't work in paper magic. Due to the way you pass priority, it would be a nightmare to handle.
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The only time I've played with rounds under 50 minutes was at the recent Theros prereleases, where my LGS owner decided to do 45 min since there were a lot of issues with registering the new players. (Wizards sent them a bad batch of DCI numbers so they had to re-register all of them.) He also always does the number of rounds needed to determine a definite winner, which meant both of those events were 7 rounds.
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I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
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Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
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I was surprised and asked the organizer how long we had per round; he answered with forty minutes. I didn't argue about it, but it was a little frustrating as a draw in the first round is never too fun.
I understand that the minimum time per round for tournaments is forty minutes and in the end the round times will be based on what serves the store owner's best interest, which is perfectly reasonable. However, I feel like certain matchups in standard take, on average, over forty minutes even at a pace that can be expected at a larger tournament. If I'm not mistaken on the speed of the current format, I don't think it would be a bad thing to bring the incident up and request an additional five minutes per round or so.
How fast does everyone think this standard format is in terms in the time it takes to complete a round when compared to other standards? Obviously this varies greatly by matchup, but I'm wondering if forty minutes is a reasonable amount of time for expecting most matchups to be done. I don't really want to call out opponents on slow play for FNM, but I rarely feel like the time I have is sufficient for most rounds.
Sorry, but this is not always true. I have played consistent 10 second turns in Standard, only to have my opponent take 5 min. on turn 2 to play a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
A round should be 50 minutes. That's the way it is at PTQs and Grand Prix and it should be consistent. As of the past few years, "going to turns" has rarely been an issue, other than Junk Rites mirrors recently. Attacking with creatures tends to make it somewhat quick. Even Esper Control just tries to find it's Blood Baron/Elspeth/Aetherling! and then win. 24 points in 3 turns is pretty strong for the 6 mana cost creature.
I used to LOVE playing Control. I would play Control at PTQs and other big tournaments. I noticed often I would get a tie that would knock me from top 8 contention, sometimes my fault and sometimes my opponent's. Sometimes, an opponent who took too long would have beaten me if they played quicker and although that can be somewhat satisfying, it sucks to get knocked out from top 8 contention because of draws. Nowadays, the only way I'll play Control at a big tournament is if it is the BEST deck and I can beat the mirror. Other than that, I simply don't have to play Control.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
50 minute rounds for REL events is fine.
For example: its FNM -- Friday NIGHT magic. Some places start a bit later, and the 5 minutes per round compounds (on paper translates to AT LEAST +20 minutes for 4 rounds FNM, if the owner is strict about it; realistically, that's an +1 or so hours), then suddenly you're closing up a lot later than you should, which means you have kids going home long past they should. If I were the store owner, I'd like to close shop before 10pm, if only to make sure my customers can still find a bus home. Some LGS are strictly confined to mall hours. I've had several instances where games took longer than they should and we reached lights out in the mall.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I wish there was more time, but it is a casual format. We've had enough players for 6 rounds a few times, and it can run pretty long if that happens, since we do a cut to top 8 as well. Often time's we'll have to split the top 4 just to get out before midnight (starting at 5:30).
They should be shorter so I smoke less
40 minutes seems a bit short, but everywhere I've gone is 50, so it's not ridiculously short. I haven't often gone to time in Standard, though I no longer have any interest in standard, so maybe it's really durdly right now.
Now in legacy... I know there should be a limit and 50 minutes is fair, but it can be frustrating. First round of my last legacy tourney we finished GAME 1 with 90 seconds left on the clock. Dark Maverick vs. Bant Maverick. There are just so many decisions.....
We mainly do 4 rounds, one time we did 5 rounds because we had 22 people show up and play. Lately though the TO has split it into 2 different groups. One she calls the Novice League which is mainly for the newer players. If I play something new, like a borrowed deck or something I brew'd at home, I'll play in it. There is also what she calls the Challenger League, that is where the more experienced people play. With this setup we normally have only 4 rounds and finish right around 10 the night.
Eh... that's not really fair though. Control is a relevant in every metagame. And we shouldn't just automatically give control players a disadvantage just because their deck takes longer.
That being said, I'm not against a 40 minute round if there is a good reason. Perhaps the owner wants to keep specific hours. Or if it's a small tournament and 40 minutes is reasonable because you don't want 8 people in a 10 man tournament waiting for the 1 match to finish. However, in a 24 man tournament... odds are even at 50 minutes a few of those matches are going to be finishing right as the timer goes off.
I'm not sure about mall stores having to worry about time. I used to play in a mall store that routinely had tournaments ending at midnight. And we just went out the back of the store which was right by the parking lot. Maybe every mall store doesn't have that luxury but if you are an LGS that probably makes a lot of it's money on the weekends. It's a big deal if you are forced to cut a tournament short because you have to close the store at 9 or 10.
Once thing that might help, if extending the round time limit isn't feasible for your LGS, is to ask the TO if he could give a 5m warning before the round is over, or see if the LGS can afford a big timer so everyone can easily see the time left in the round at a glance. My current LGS has a great big wall timer with an UltraPro logo on it, so I'm sure they're available, but I have no idea on the price. It beeps nice and loud when the time is up, so everybody can hear it even during a loud and crowded tournament. (They also have a smaller wall timer with Jace on it, but it's only used when they have two tournaments running at once, such as their Legacy event coinciding with the Saturday of a prerelease. I found a copy of the Jace timer being sold on eBay for $700.)
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Hell man, I've been in there at a tournament that started at 6:30 and had 6 rounds plus a cut to top 8.
Then you should talk to the judge and the store owner. FNM is regular REL, but once you start giving competitive level prizes out you need to tighten up on rules enforcement. I've always hated high prizes like that at FNM because it only encourages things like stalling and cheating.
As to the original post about 40 minute rounds, I hate them. The only place in my area that does them is one store at pre-release. My theory is that they do it because they pay out their prizes based on score not standing in all events, and more ties means less product given out.
(Also known as Xenphire)
It is only a very few players. They have not played consistently at our FNMs. They have also had warnings before, but no warning has escalated to a "game loss," which is not allowed at FNM for not purposely taking too long. One such player quit for quite a while, but he's back.
I've dodged playing him, so I don't mind right now. If I play him, I will ask a Judge to watch. He is a very nice guy and since many players at our FNM are new, they really don't realize that players should only take a certain time limit to make decisions. (probably because they take a bit longer than usual themselves) Honestly, it doesn't seem like this particular player is doing it on purpose, but it hurts the SAME nonetheless. I honestly don't care if it's on purpose or not; the outcome is the same. I have honestly been scarred by these types of players, more than anything else in Magic.
One of my non FNM experiences was a few years ago at an Extended PTQ in San Diego. I was 5-0 going into Round 6 of 8. I am almost ensured that I get top 8. I am playing Caw Blade. (no Jace/SfM) I play 2 consecutive Jund players who take 75%-95% of the playing time, getting me 2 draws in games which I would have won. I landed Batterskull late in the game when they had 0 cards. In Round 7, I needed 1 more turn. The player would not concede to me, despite the fact that I was paired down both rounds (5-0 vs. 4-0-1 and 5-0-1 vs. 4-0-2) I lost in the last round vs. the mirror (due to making a slight mistake being on tilt not attacking with a Mutavault and my opponent winning on 1 life), 0-1. I was so upset over this, I did not even stay for any potential prize for 9th-16th. I was that upset and I told myself that I'd never show any mercy to any players who seem like they're taking too long.
I even had my Round 7 opponent tell me, by my name, that I was taking too long when I tanked and took 1 min. on my turn. Mind you, his Jund was taking him 3 min. every single turn to make his choices while my Caw Blade was taking me 15 sec. to a long turn of 1 min. Obviously in the future, I will do everything in my power to dream crush this player and any friends who he plays with. :devil:
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Legacy: Infect, Lands, Eldrazi, Storm
Modern: Infect, UW Eldrazi
Chess clocks really wouldn't work in paper magic. Due to the way you pass priority, it would be a nightmare to handle.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination