I almost always shuffle my opponents decks, especially if they are a newer player because:
1) They almost never properly randomize there deck (regular shuffle twice, mana weave etc.)
2) Some people get tilted when people shuffle there deck even though its a basic rule of competitive magical cardboard.
I just do the regular sleeve shuffle. Anyone who's played the game for a decent amount of time knows ultra pro's will split like crazy so you should not feel bad if you bust your opponents ultra pro sleeves.
But please, don't riffle your opponents deck. Even if your an expert shuffler never damage cards blah blah etc. people just feel more comfortable if you are gentle to their decks. Riffling your opponents deck is probably one of the fastest ways to make enemies in MTG.
Just saying around this area you go breaking someones sleeves there will be an altercation between you and your opponent. You would buy me new sleeves and replace any damaged cards. There is absolutely no reason to shuffle hard enough to split sleeves
And I actually had an opponent take my NO RUG Legacy deck and almost bridge shuffle it. I had to physically intervene and stop him. Seriously? Bridge shuffling in Legacy? My loud exclamation of "UMM.. what the $%^& are you doing??" caused the judge to come over. I explained the situation, and the judge told the guy sternly to not shuffle peoples' cards like that. Unbelievable.
But that's how we people who didn't care about value shuffled our own cards back in the day. Which is why finding near mint vintage/legacy stuff is hard to find. I guess the habit is hard to break...
I've never had a problem with damaging my own cards while doing a riffle shuffle but for a very good reason.
Cut the deck in two then hold the cards so the bottom edge of the cards is facing you. Using your thumb against the long side of the card just kind of let the cards drop down below your thumbs. It takes very little pressure to keep the cards above the thumb and very little pressure to push the two stacks together.
To those of you who just don't care about damaging the cards of others and use it to put your opponent "on tilt". Be aware that you are one of the biggest reasons I don't go to events with any kind of prize. Put yourself in the shoes of the other person, or even better into the shoes of a parent who's child is the victim of such behavior. I'm sure a few of you would "beat down" anyone who did that to your kid but see no problem doing it to other players. If you don't see a problem with that then I don't know what else to say.
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I've never had a problem with damaging my own cards while doing a riffle shuffle but for a very good reason.
Cut the deck in two then hold the cards so the bottom edge of the cards is facing you. Using your thumb against the long side of the card just kind of let the cards drop down below your thumbs. It takes very little pressure to keep the cards above the thumb and very little pressure to push the two stacks together.
To those of you who just don't care about damaging the cards of others and use it to put your opponent "on tilt". Be aware that you are one of the biggest reasons I don't go to events with any kind of prize. Put yourself in the shoes of the other person, or even better into the shoes of a parent who's child is the victim of such behavior. I'm sure a few of you would "beat down" anyone who did that to your kid but see no problem doing it to other players. If you don't see a problem with that then I don't know what else to say.
They dont call Lima "Little Chicago" for being nice. People get shot in this city for less than the cost of a legacy deck. I think an ass beating would be getting off light around here.
Bridge shuffling is against the rules? Where? I always bridge shuffle my opponent's deck, and I play quite a bit of Legacy.
Magic cards are supposed to be able to pass the bend test. If your cards are being damaged by a bridge shuffle, their authenticity is in doubt.
Any card will fail the bend test eventually. They arent invulnerable.
If you are taking someone else's cards that are nearly two decades old and attempting to bridge them (or even a hard riffle shuffle that bends them), that is just completely unacceptable.
If you wouldnt key someone's car right in front of them, dont bend their eternal format deck while you shuffle it.
I actively refuse to let people riffle shuffle my cards and even go out of my way to ask them not to do it. I'm sorry, but I'm not letting anything damage my eternal staples if I can help it.
Thankfully almost every Legacy player in my area is sensitive about shuffling opponent's decks and if they riffle shuffle, they only do it to their own cards.
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Someone damages my cards simply to be a douche? Well, I'm probably about to get tossed out of someplace. A good rule of thumb when dealing with my stuff is don't damage my cards and I won't damage your face. There is absolutely no reason to treat other peoples property like crap because your a douche bag wannabe pro jerkoff.
I don't really see a lot of riffle shuffling anymore. A few in my group do it to their own cards around the table, but never anyone else's. In a more formal setting, it's always a mash shuffle. As long as you have quality sleeves, a mash shuffle is just as easy as a riffle and offers roughly the same randomization when done right without a hint of bending.
1) They almost never properly randomize there deck (regular shuffle twice, mana weave etc.)
Mmm hmm. It takes 2 / 3 * Log[2, n] shuffles to sufficiently randomize a deck of n cards. (Where Log[a, b] is the logarithm of b in base a.) For a 60-card deck, that's ~8.86 shuffles (shuffle 9 times), while a 99-card EDH deck takes ~9.94 shuffles (shuffle 10 times) and a 250-card Battle of Wits deck takes ~11.95 shuffles (shuffle 12 times). This is assuming a proper riffle shuffle, of course. Poorer shuffling technique will require more shuffles to properly randomize the deck.
Mmm hmm. It takes 2 / 3 * Log[2, n] shuffles to sufficiently randomize a deck of n cards. (Where Log[a, b] is the logarithm of b in base a.) For a 60-card deck, that's ~8.86 shuffles (shuffle 9 times), while a 99-card EDH deck takes ~9.94 shuffles (shuffle 10 times) and a 250-card Battle of Wits deck takes ~11.95 shuffles (shuffle 12 times). This is assuming a proper riffle shuffle, of course. Poorer shuffling technique will require more shuffles to properly randomize the deck.
Could you explain how you came to these conclusions? Not saying it's wrong, just trying to understand it.
Magic cards are stronger than you think. An opponent once bended my deck during a shuffle and after a while the cards came out straight again. I was simply using an $8 Ultrapro sleeve with the Rakdos design on it.
They have been in business for quite some time. They have perfected the manufacturing process as far as the cards are concerned.
Can someone please explain to me the difference between a riffle shuffle and a mash shuffle?
Riffle shuffle is the "traditional" playing card shuffle, where you separate the deck into two halves and then set them on the table and, holding the side of each pile up with the thumb of each hand, shuffle the two halves into each other by releasing the cards with your thumbs one or two at a time on each side so the two halves mix together.
A mash shuffle is where you split the deck in two, hold one half in each hand, then push the two halves back together.
Had two different opponents flip over cards in my deck while shuffling it last night at FNM. If you are bad at shuffling please just cut at this REL. Im an expert shuffler from 20 years of playing this game and I just cut at FNM, I feel shuffling an opponents deck is a waste of time at such a low stakes event.
"Yeah, sorry that your opponent damaged your foil tarmogoyf. Here's a token you can use instead."
I'm not sure what I would do at this point if it happened to me. Rage-quitting could be a real possibility.
Offer to let him pay <or break his arm>.
I would sue but if I was rich enough to sue I wouldn't be bothering with caring all that much.
Seriously people who are saying they can riffle shuffle legacy decks because bending cards does not damage them: they have a breaking point. And you are probably dealing with a deck that is worth a computor or two or heaven forbid a pimp deck worth a new car. People have been shot for much less than the damage you could do accidentally or not.
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JUST EDITING THIS IN: The mods originally issued me an auto-temp ban for this comment. I felt that was less than reasonable.
There are a lot of high end cards that just sit there because you can't sell them for the price they're supposedly worth. Get over yourself.
You can move cars actively. You can move computers because average people need them.
There are plenty of Black Lotuses that just sit there looking pretty but never, ever move because other than being a token piece of a collection you can't move them and most play environments don't even allow them.
I mean yeah...technically a sealed box of Beta is worth $35,000. Let me know how well it sells. Liquidity is an important factor.
Either play by the rules of the game or leave your stuff at home. That involves proper randomization of a deck - guess which method has proven to be the fastest and most effective at that? Oh yeah...riffle shuffling...by far. It isn't even close.
"I want to play with my all my expensive stuff since it is so powerful in game play, but want to curb certain rules of the game to protect them at the same time because they are an inconvenience to me"...hypocrite much?
There are a lot of high end cards that just sit there because you can't sell them for the price they're supposedly worth. Get over yourself.
You can move cars actively. You can move computers because average people need them.
There are plenty of Black Lotuses that just sit there looking pretty but never, ever move because other than being a token piece of a collection you can't move them and most play environments don't even allow them.
I mean yeah...technically a sealed box of Beta is worth $35,000. Let me know how well it sells. Liquidity is an important factor.
Either play by the rules of the game or leave your stuff at home. That involves proper randomization of a deck - guess which method has proven to be the fastest and most effective at that? Oh yeah...riffle shuffling...by far. It isn't even close.
"I want to play with my all my expensive stuff since it is so powerful in game play, but want to curb certain rules of the game to protect them at the same time because they are an inconvenience to me"...hypocrite much?
You can shuffle sufficiently without ruining my cards or sleeves, insisting you basically have to ruin my cards for me to play with them makes you an *******.
I didn't say I have to ruin your cards in order to sufficiently randomize your cards. Part of the game is the requirement to randomize cards. This involves shuffling to some extent. The most sufficient and best method of randomization involves riffle shuffling.
This carries with it the unfortunate side effects of possibly damaging your cards. I'm supposed to circumvent certain rules of the game that exist because of the possibility of your cards being slightly hurt?
I've had cards for sixteen and seventeen years that I've actively riffle shuffled thousands and thousands of times and they're just fine. Other people need to shuffle them as well. I accept the risk by sitting down to play that shuffling them might involve damage.
I've noticed you can only mash shuffle with sleeved cards - a non-sleeved deck requires other shuffling methods. I'm partial to an overhand shuffling method for my non-sleeved decks, although this doesn't really accomplish randomness.
Also, if you intend to play with cards that might be high value, why not invest in some heavily played versions that you can get a little cheaper and you won't care about damaging?
If you riffle shuffle any of my legacy decks I'm going to tell you to stop it otherwise stuff will happen that no one wants to happen including me. I've seen what shuffling can do to cards from the 90's and it isn't pretty (a friend has enough hairline creases on dual lands, force of wills, etc. etc. to last a lifetime due to his shuffling.)
Mash shuffling is pretty damn close to riffling and it's the technique I use exclusively unless I'm playing unsleeved games of limited, which implies that none of the cards are worth money anyways/damaging the cards doesn't matter to me at all (if I play something valuable namely $10 or more I'm sleeving the deck.) It is by far the best method and it doesn't damage cards unless you're bad at shuffling. Pile shuffling is bull**** and not randomization at all, the only time I do it is after a deck check and even then I mash shuffle a few times before hand because all the cards are sorted by 4 of's and such so pile shuffling isn't doing much at all besides evenly distributing all the 4 ofs in your deck.
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I've noticed you can only mash shuffle with sleeved cards - a non-sleeved deck requires other shuffling methods. I'm partial to an overhand shuffling method for my non-sleeved decks, although this doesn't really accomplish randomness.
Also, if you intend to play with cards that might be high value, why not invest in some heavily played versions that you can get a little cheaper and you won't care about damaging?
OR how about I still play with my nice looking card and you shuffle them without destroying them? Ive played with many of my decks for years and they are as fresh as the day I bought the cards. You do not have to hurt any cards to shuffle them. My scalding tarns that ive used extensively from from packs of zendikar when the set was new look like they just came out of the packs despite years of play.
Because I never had an issue before. Usually people who do it know how to do it. This was the exception to the rule
So OP, who did the opponent shuffling of your. deck?
Just saying around this area you go breaking someones sleeves there will be an altercation between you and your opponent. You would buy me new sleeves and replace any damaged cards. There is absolutely no reason to shuffle hard enough to split sleeves
But that's how we people who didn't care about value shuffled our own cards back in the day. Which is why finding near mint vintage/legacy stuff is hard to find. I guess the habit is hard to break...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=517520
Cut the deck in two then hold the cards so the bottom edge of the cards is facing you. Using your thumb against the long side of the card just kind of let the cards drop down below your thumbs. It takes very little pressure to keep the cards above the thumb and very little pressure to push the two stacks together.
To those of you who just don't care about damaging the cards of others and use it to put your opponent "on tilt". Be aware that you are one of the biggest reasons I don't go to events with any kind of prize. Put yourself in the shoes of the other person, or even better into the shoes of a parent who's child is the victim of such behavior. I'm sure a few of you would "beat down" anyone who did that to your kid but see no problem doing it to other players. If you don't see a problem with that then I don't know what else to say.
There's no proof she's being chased
by ninja squirrels either. - Dr. Wilson
They dont call Lima "Little Chicago" for being nice. People get shot in this city for less than the cost of a legacy deck. I think an ass beating would be getting off light around here.
Any card will fail the bend test eventually. They arent invulnerable.
If you are taking someone else's cards that are nearly two decades old and attempting to bridge them (or even a hard riffle shuffle that bends them), that is just completely unacceptable.
If you wouldnt key someone's car right in front of them, dont bend their eternal format deck while you shuffle it.
Thankfully almost every Legacy player in my area is sensitive about shuffling opponent's decks and if they riffle shuffle, they only do it to their own cards.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
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Could you explain how you came to these conclusions? Not saying it's wrong, just trying to understand it.
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They have been in business for quite some time. They have perfected the manufacturing process as far as the cards are concerned.
There's a math formula for it, that's a simplified version of a formal paper in 1992. You can find the information in this thread.
Riffle shuffle is the "traditional" playing card shuffle, where you separate the deck into two halves and then set them on the table and, holding the side of each pile up with the thumb of each hand, shuffle the two halves into each other by releasing the cards with your thumbs one or two at a time on each side so the two halves mix together.
A mash shuffle is where you split the deck in two, hold one half in each hand, then push the two halves back together.
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Offer to let him pay <or break his arm>.
I would sue but if I was rich enough to sue I wouldn't be bothering with caring all that much.
Seriously people who are saying they can riffle shuffle legacy decks because bending cards does not damage them: they have a breaking point. And you are probably dealing with a deck that is worth a computor or two or heaven forbid a pimp deck worth a new car. People have been shot for much less than the damage you could do accidentally or not.
Infraction for advocating illegal behavior/violence. Even as a joke, it's inappropriate.
-Sene
JUST EDITING THIS IN: The mods originally issued me an auto-temp ban for this comment. I felt that was less than reasonable.
You can move cars actively. You can move computers because average people need them.
There are plenty of Black Lotuses that just sit there looking pretty but never, ever move because other than being a token piece of a collection you can't move them and most play environments don't even allow them.
I mean yeah...technically a sealed box of Beta is worth $35,000. Let me know how well it sells. Liquidity is an important factor.
Either play by the rules of the game or leave your stuff at home. That involves proper randomization of a deck - guess which method has proven to be the fastest and most effective at that? Oh yeah...riffle shuffling...by far. It isn't even close.
"I want to play with my all my expensive stuff since it is so powerful in game play, but want to curb certain rules of the game to protect them at the same time because they are an inconvenience to me"...hypocrite much?
You can shuffle sufficiently without ruining my cards or sleeves, insisting you basically have to ruin my cards for me to play with them makes you an *******.
This carries with it the unfortunate side effects of possibly damaging your cards. I'm supposed to circumvent certain rules of the game that exist because of the possibility of your cards being slightly hurt?
I've had cards for sixteen and seventeen years that I've actively riffle shuffled thousands and thousands of times and they're just fine. Other people need to shuffle them as well. I accept the risk by sitting down to play that shuffling them might involve damage.
Also, if you intend to play with cards that might be high value, why not invest in some heavily played versions that you can get a little cheaper and you won't care about damaging?
Mash shuffling is pretty damn close to riffling and it's the technique I use exclusively unless I'm playing unsleeved games of limited, which implies that none of the cards are worth money anyways/damaging the cards doesn't matter to me at all (if I play something valuable namely $10 or more I'm sleeving the deck.) It is by far the best method and it doesn't damage cards unless you're bad at shuffling. Pile shuffling is bull**** and not randomization at all, the only time I do it is after a deck check and even then I mash shuffle a few times before hand because all the cards are sorted by 4 of's and such so pile shuffling isn't doing much at all besides evenly distributing all the 4 ofs in your deck.
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OR how about I still play with my nice looking card and you shuffle them without destroying them? Ive played with many of my decks for years and they are as fresh as the day I bought the cards. You do not have to hurt any cards to shuffle them. My scalding tarns that ive used extensively from from packs of zendikar when the set was new look like they just came out of the packs despite years of play.