Some players of this game whom I have met (myself included) have expressed a desire to revisit planes or settings from previous blocks, most notably Kamigawa and Ulgrotha (the setting of Homelands). However, other players have stated that WotC is unlikely to revisit those planes because the sets that featured them were unpopular.
I find that to be very unfortunate, since I was fond of both those settings, and believe that it would be great to revisit them, since there certainly must be further stories that can be told on those planes.
In addition, I believe that unpopularity is not a legitimate reason to revisit an existing setting, since the reasons for that unpopularity may not exist into the current day, and revisiting an older setting is a chance to fix the apparent problems that it experienced in its original incarnation. I have heard many players complain that Homelands and Kamigawa were not popular because of their poor mechanical design and/or execution, but I believe that if WotC were to revisit the settings of either of those blocks, they would have the opportunity to introduce a better mechanical identity to those settings, and hopefully remove the negative stigma that those sets currently have associated with them.
What does everyone else say? Is unpopularity a legitimate reason to not revisit an existing setting, and should WotC make any effort to improve the reputation that Kamigawa and Ulgrotha have among the players?
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
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“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Is unpopularity a legitimate reason to not revisit an existing setting, and should WotC make any effort to improve the reputation that Kamigawa and Ulgrotha have among the players?
Absolutely! There's no need to waste time/effort revisiting or "giving a second chance" to set that might (not necessarily will) be unpopular.
I'm sure they have hundreds of ideas for new planes that could be awesome but that dont run the risk of being just as unpopular as they were the first time they visited that plane. And there is not time/money to make all of those ideas of planes into reality so they have to pick the best ones.
Just because it might be less unpopular is not a good enough reason to revisit a plane when there are plenty of other good ideas out there.
What about all the untold stories and surviving characters on each plane that has not yet been revisited? What about the players who wish to know what happens next on those locations? WotC is missing grand opportunities by not revisiting those planes, in my mind.
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Well, they did sort of revisit the planes already. Wotc does have some awareness of how popular some of the themes in Ulgrotha and Kamigawa were, and I feel that cards like Elixir of Immortality, Barony Vampire, and Tamiyo were nods to those particular fans.
But you probably know that already, and I'm sure you're talking about entire blocks. So going back to the original question, I think the question is not just whether "unpopularity is a legitimate reason to not revisit," but whether "moderate popularity is a good enough reason to revisit." Just because some people (myself included) love the stories and themes in these planes, I'm sure that they still see that revisiting these planes becomes more of a risk than it's worth :/
Putting little seeds like Tamiyo in sets allows them to measure the popularity of certain concepts without devoting much resources. If the feedback shows players like certain aspects, they will definitely focus on them later.
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Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
What about all the untold stories and surviving characters on each plane that has not yet been revisited? What about the players who wish to know what happens next on those locations? WotC is missing grand opportunities by not revisiting those planes, in my mind.
Why would they cater to the small amount of players interested of doing something new and awesome? Spending a whole year on "Return to that place that most of you hated the first time" instead of a year on a Volcano Dinosaur Pirate plane, now THAT would a wasted opportunity.
There is so much design space that they waste by sticking fairly rigidly to the 3 sets plus core set each year. Modern Masters was a step in the right direction, but they should really be looking towards advanced level standalone formats with limited in mind that aren't necessarily supposed to be standard legal. Something like that would be a perfect place to revisit Kami or Ulgrotha, without running the full risks that you would by designing a full block around those planes.
But you probably know that already, and I'm sure you're talking about entire blocks. So going back to the original question, I think the question is not just whether "unpopularity is a legitimate reason to not revisit," but whether "moderate popularity is a good enough reason to revisit." Just because some people (myself included) love the stories and themes in these planes, I'm sure that they still see that revisiting these planes becomes more of a risk than it's worth :/
That is very unfortunate, in my mind, and I wish that WotC would at least once care more about appeasing their customers than they do about making a profit (of course, most businesses make profits by appeasing their customers, so if WotC were to appease the players who wish to revisit those planes, they would profit greatly from doing so, in my mind).
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
There is so much design space that they waste by sticking fairly rigidly to the 3 sets plus core set each year. Modern Masters was a step in the right direction, but they should really be looking towards advanced level standalone formats with limited in mind that aren't necessarily supposed to be standard legal. Something like that would be a perfect place to revisit Kami or Ulgrotha, without running the full risks that you would by designing a full block around those planes.
At first glance, my eyes almost lit up thinking about the possibilities, but then I remembered about Coldsnap, which comes pretty close to what you were talking about
Why would they cater to the small amount of players interested of doing something new and awesome? Spending a whole year on "Return to that place that most of you hated the first time" instead of a year on a Volcano Dinosaur Pirate plane, now THAT would a wasted opportunity.
Forget about going to new Pirate world. How about revisiting Zendikar or Dominaria? If Wizards is going to revisit worlds, it just makes so much more sense to revisit popular worlds that I want to see more of, instead of the world that gave us fun resonant cards like the Garami.
Forget about going to new Pirate world. How about revisiting Zendikar or Dominaria? If Wizards is going to revisit worlds, it just makes so much more sense to revisit popular worlds that I want to see more of, instead of the world that gave us fun resonant cards like the Garami.
That's a much better comparison. If making the most players happy, and making the most money are two important goals, why would they ever return to kamigawa over zendikar or dominaria? Doing so would most likely make less player happiness and make less money.
Also, the last planechase product basically had a "return to kamigawa" deck.
The fact that it was unpopular seems like a good reason to revisit it, I'd say. Same reason why I think it makes more sense for Hollywood to do remakes of bad movies than good movies.
In regards to a "Return to Homelands": New players won't care that there was some unpopular expansion 18 years ago, and they'll buy the set. Old players will buy it anyway, because it's MTG.
Face it, if you're "hardcore" enough to know what Homelands is, and dislike it, then you're too "hardcore" to quit MTG because of an expansion.
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It would make no difference. If we went back to a plane it would be nothing like when we were there the first time, save for a similar theme (Ravnica has guilds, Mirrodin has artifacts, etc)
The story in MTG has been pretty crappy since Onslaught block... I don't really care what plane we go to as long as the actual cards are fun to play with.
Face it, if you're "hardcore" enough to know what Homelands is, and dislike it, then you're too "hardcore" to quit MTG because of an expansion.
I doubt anyone would quit, but how many packs would people buy? If the answer is 'less than they would buy of Return to Zendikar or Ravnica 3: Now More Than Ever', Wizards isn't going to waste resources going back to a place that didn't qualify as a resounding success.
Kamigawa, I'm willing to admit, was a fun block. I liked it. But I will never understand the deep, inexpicable love that exists for Homelands. The cards were awful, and all the story had going for it was that it was very developed. That doesn't make it good, though. In fact, the story was awful.
Wizards has better things to do than dream of ways to fix Kamigawa and Homelands.
awnDreya brings up a good point. This has already been tried with Coldsnap.
Unfortunately, I was on a ten-year hiatus when Coldsnap came out. How did that turn out? Anyone who was playing during that time, feel free to chime in.
I still maintain that given WotC's rather successful bid to keep the majority of their audience a bunch of newcomers, no real harm would come from revisiting a less popular setting, since nobody relevant (in WotC's eyes) would've heard of it.
I will never, not ever ever ever, understand this bizarre, perplexing notion of the majority of old players believing that setting = mechanics/power. I can understand something like Ravnica being built up around its goldness and its colors mattering; you wouldn't want to build a Ravnica-based block that completely discarded that (though I still maintain you DON'T need to have the major themes be exactly the same). But power level? By that logic, everyone would want to return to Rabiah or Dominaria the most, since THOSE are where the most powerful cards ever came from!
awnDreya brings up a good point. This has already been tried with Coldsnap.
Unfortunately, I was on a ten-year hiatus when Coldsnap came out. How did that turn out? Anyone who was playing during that time, feel free to chime in.
Given how much I enjoyed the Ice Age Cycle, I liked it just fine, the snow cards especially. ...granted I disliked a number of things in hindsight (LOVISA! NOOOOO!), and I certainly can't pretend that mechanics like ripple and recover weren't ill-conceived there, but I liked the set just fine.
However, I'm rather unique in what I value in this game, so take my words with a grain of salt.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
Coldsnap isn't a fair comparison. Coldsnap was a poorly designed set that that just copied bizzare things like ice age era slow trips, cumulative upkeep, and snow. A return to kamigawa doesn't necessitate the return of splice onto arcane and sweep. A return to homelands doesn't mean the set has to be full of terrible cards. Coldsnap was done with the idea of being an extension of the ice age block. A return to homelands doesn't have to be an extension of a homelands block. It can have completely different mechanics, completely different power levels, and keep the same great flavor. Same with Kamigawa.
I have to personally wonder whether pack sales have anything to do with set popularity at all.
People play standard, in order to play standard they need the new cards. Stores live and die by having these cards for sale, so stores open packs. Stores buy packs. People buy packs from stores to get the cards to play standard.
Whether a set is good, bad, or popular it will reasonably outsell the last set so long as the game grows in popularity.
I have to personally wonder whether pack sales have anything to do with set popularity at all.
People play standard, in order to play standard they need the new cards. Stores live and die by having these cards for sale, so stores open packs. Stores buy packs. People buy packs from stores to get the cards to play standard.
Whether a set is good, bad, or popular it will reasonably outsell the last set so long as the game grows in popularity.
Or at least, that's what I would imagine.
I would imagine that much of sales is based on how fun the set is to draft.
I agree with OP. While Homelands was largely unplayable, I enjoyed the setting and atmosphere. Unfortunately, a lot of players who didn't know either set are just following the flock, and declare that if others thought that setting X was bad, then they have to think it's bad aswell.
And Wizards will be cautious with that. Look, Innistrad could have been in Ulgrotha, but they didn't, I guess out of fear that the collective mind is sure that the setting is bad. Even if they never played it.
I would love a return to Kamigawa. As other have said - just because the block was "bad" the first time, doesn't mean it's gonna be bad the second time. Look at original Mirrodin. It was broken beyond belief. And then look at Scars of Mirrodin. It was nowhere near that power level.
I don't think that we will revisit Ulgrotha (at least not any time soon), as it's setting is too similar to Innistrad, IMO.
But I believe we could still see Kamigawa one day if the playerbase is vocal about it. I mean, they have to bring Tamiyo one day right?
As for Coldsnap - it was a nice set, i LOVED snow, but unfortunately the set had waaaay too much cumulative upkeep.
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I would say the majority of the player base doesnt play the game because of the flavor or setting of each set/block. They play because of the game, everything else is just things some get into.
To the OP: Absolutely. The bar gets very high if they choose to revisit a maligned set from the past, as everyone will be approaching it from an already negatively biased POV. It may not be entirely logical, but that doesn't matter, perception does.
That said, it wouldn't shock me to see them revisit Kamigawa, simply due to the fact that so many gamers are enamored with Asian tropes and styles. They are going to want to do another block in that kind of setting, and it would be a little bit odd to create a 2nd Asian themed plane.
OTOH I would be shocked to see them return to Homelands. That set wasn't particularly flavorful or unique when it was first released, and there is really no resonance or anything interesting to return to...only the terrible connotation with "worst set ever".
awnDreya brings up a good point. This has already been tried with Coldsnap.
Unfortunately, I was on a ten-year hiatus when Coldsnap came out. How did that turn out? Anyone who was playing during that time, feel free to chime in.
It sold really poorly and was generally meh to most players. I personally liked it alot, but I am apparently the minority here.
I would love a return to Kamigawa. As other have said - just because the block was "bad" the first time, doesn't mean it's gonna be bad the second time. Look at original Mirrodin. It was broken beyond belief. And then look at Scars of Mirrodin. It was nowhere near that power level.
I don't think that we will revisit Ulgrotha (at least not any time soon), as it's setting is too similar to Innistrad, IMO.
But I believe we could still see Kamigawa one day if the playerbase is vocal about it. I mean, they have to bring Tamiyo one day right? :)=
Or it could be just as bad, so why risk it when there are better ideas and limited time to make sets?
Personally, I hated, not the cards, but the theme/story of both homelands and kamigawa (so much that I basically quit mtg for a few years) and if the whole point of returning to one of those planes was for theme/story reasons then myself (and many others) would probably hate it just as much the 2nd time.
You say its just the cards that matter, not the theme, but would you play magic if it was yugioh arts with backstory written by a 10 year old?.
For anyone saying those planes should be returned to, do you honestly think Kamigawa 2 would be better received than Zendikar or innstrad 2 (or even ravnica 3)? If not, then there is no logical justification to go back to kamigawa before going to either of those planes.
That is very unfortunate, in my mind, and I wish that WotC would at least once care more about appeasing their customers than they do about making a profit (of course, most businesses make profits by appeasing their customers, so if WotC were to appease the players who wish to revisit those planes, they would profit greatly from doing so, in my mind).
See, the number of customers who actually -want- a return to these planes is pretty small. You may be appeasing some customers, but you're alienating a whole lot more of them. "Homelands", in particular, is perhaps the most infamous set in Magic, and even new players have heard stories about how bad it is. Why would you try and market a product like that?
I think Homelands is so frustrating because they didn't even tell a story. They laid out a backstory, set up some characters, and...that's it. Homelands is unfinished, and we as humans hate to see things unfinished. I think that accounts for a lot of the "return to Homelands" stuff. I also have a suspicion that the Baron will eventually escape from the plane and show up in the future. But other than that, I think the death knell has been sounded for a Homelands return - if they ever want to do Gothic horror again, there's no reason to not return to the far more popular, dynamic, and interesting Innistrad instead.
I think Kamigawa was just a very poor setting. It's slightly popular because a lot of Westerners have a fascination with Japanese culture, but they really dropped the ball on the set with the whole "spirits vs mortals" background, I think. It's more likely to get a return than Homelands, but I think it's far more likely they create a new setting with similar themes than returning to that mess.
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I find that to be very unfortunate, since I was fond of both those settings, and believe that it would be great to revisit them, since there certainly must be further stories that can be told on those planes.
In addition, I believe that unpopularity is not a legitimate reason to revisit an existing setting, since the reasons for that unpopularity may not exist into the current day, and revisiting an older setting is a chance to fix the apparent problems that it experienced in its original incarnation. I have heard many players complain that Homelands and Kamigawa were not popular because of their poor mechanical design and/or execution, but I believe that if WotC were to revisit the settings of either of those blocks, they would have the opportunity to introduce a better mechanical identity to those settings, and hopefully remove the negative stigma that those sets currently have associated with them.
What does everyone else say? Is unpopularity a legitimate reason to not revisit an existing setting, and should WotC make any effort to improve the reputation that Kamigawa and Ulgrotha have among the players?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Absolutely! There's no need to waste time/effort revisiting or "giving a second chance" to set that might (not necessarily will) be unpopular.
I'm sure they have hundreds of ideas for new planes that could be awesome but that dont run the risk of being just as unpopular as they were the first time they visited that plane. And there is not time/money to make all of those ideas of planes into reality so they have to pick the best ones.
Just because it might be less unpopular is not a good enough reason to revisit a plane when there are plenty of other good ideas out there.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
But you probably know that already, and I'm sure you're talking about entire blocks. So going back to the original question, I think the question is not just whether "unpopularity is a legitimate reason to not revisit," but whether "moderate popularity is a good enough reason to revisit." Just because some people (myself included) love the stories and themes in these planes, I'm sure that they still see that revisiting these planes becomes more of a risk than it's worth :/
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Why would they cater to the small amount of players interested of doing something new and awesome? Spending a whole year on "Return to that place that most of you hated the first time" instead of a year on a Volcano Dinosaur Pirate plane, now THAT would a wasted opportunity.
That is very unfortunate, in my mind, and I wish that WotC would at least once care more about appeasing their customers than they do about making a profit (of course, most businesses make profits by appeasing their customers, so if WotC were to appease the players who wish to revisit those planes, they would profit greatly from doing so, in my mind).
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
At first glance, my eyes almost lit up thinking about the possibilities, but then I remembered about Coldsnap, which comes pretty close to what you were talking about
Forget about going to new Pirate world. How about revisiting Zendikar or Dominaria? If Wizards is going to revisit worlds, it just makes so much more sense to revisit popular worlds that I want to see more of, instead of the world that gave us fun resonant cards like the Garami.
That's a much better comparison. If making the most players happy, and making the most money are two important goals, why would they ever return to kamigawa over zendikar or dominaria? Doing so would most likely make less player happiness and make less money.
Also, the last planechase product basically had a "return to kamigawa" deck.
In regards to a "Return to Homelands": New players won't care that there was some unpopular expansion 18 years ago, and they'll buy the set. Old players will buy it anyway, because it's MTG.
Face it, if you're "hardcore" enough to know what Homelands is, and dislike it, then you're too "hardcore" to quit MTG because of an expansion.
Modern: U M'Olk; B Goodstuff
The story in MTG has been pretty crappy since Onslaught block... I don't really care what plane we go to as long as the actual cards are fun to play with.
I doubt anyone would quit, but how many packs would people buy? If the answer is 'less than they would buy of Return to Zendikar or Ravnica 3: Now More Than Ever', Wizards isn't going to waste resources going back to a place that didn't qualify as a resounding success.
Kamigawa, I'm willing to admit, was a fun block. I liked it. But I will never understand the deep, inexpicable love that exists for Homelands. The cards were awful, and all the story had going for it was that it was very developed. That doesn't make it good, though. In fact, the story was awful.
Wizards has better things to do than dream of ways to fix Kamigawa and Homelands.
Unfortunately, I was on a ten-year hiatus when Coldsnap came out. How did that turn out? Anyone who was playing during that time, feel free to chime in.
I will never, not ever ever ever, understand this bizarre, perplexing notion of the majority of old players believing that setting = mechanics/power. I can understand something like Ravnica being built up around its goldness and its colors mattering; you wouldn't want to build a Ravnica-based block that completely discarded that (though I still maintain you DON'T need to have the major themes be exactly the same). But power level? By that logic, everyone would want to return to Rabiah or Dominaria the most, since THOSE are where the most powerful cards ever came from!
Given how much I enjoyed the Ice Age Cycle, I liked it just fine, the snow cards especially. ...granted I disliked a number of things in hindsight (LOVISA! NOOOOO!), and I certainly can't pretend that mechanics like ripple and recover weren't ill-conceived there, but I liked the set just fine.
However, I'm rather unique in what I value in this game, so take my words with a grain of salt.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
People play standard, in order to play standard they need the new cards. Stores live and die by having these cards for sale, so stores open packs. Stores buy packs. People buy packs from stores to get the cards to play standard.
Whether a set is good, bad, or popular it will reasonably outsell the last set so long as the game grows in popularity.
Or at least, that's what I would imagine.
I would imagine that much of sales is based on how fun the set is to draft.
And Wizards will be cautious with that. Look, Innistrad could have been in Ulgrotha, but they didn't, I guess out of fear that the collective mind is sure that the setting is bad. Even if they never played it.
I don't think that we will revisit Ulgrotha (at least not any time soon), as it's setting is too similar to Innistrad, IMO.
But I believe we could still see Kamigawa one day if the playerbase is vocal about it. I mean, they have to bring Tamiyo one day right?
As for Coldsnap - it was a nice set, i LOVED snow, but unfortunately the set had waaaay too much cumulative upkeep.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
That said, it wouldn't shock me to see them revisit Kamigawa, simply due to the fact that so many gamers are enamored with Asian tropes and styles. They are going to want to do another block in that kind of setting, and it would be a little bit odd to create a 2nd Asian themed plane.
OTOH I would be shocked to see them return to Homelands. That set wasn't particularly flavorful or unique when it was first released, and there is really no resonance or anything interesting to return to...only the terrible connotation with "worst set ever".
It sold really poorly and was generally meh to most players. I personally liked it alot, but I am apparently the minority here.
Or it could be just as bad, so why risk it when there are better ideas and limited time to make sets?
Personally, I hated, not the cards, but the theme/story of both homelands and kamigawa (so much that I basically quit mtg for a few years) and if the whole point of returning to one of those planes was for theme/story reasons then myself (and many others) would probably hate it just as much the 2nd time.
You say its just the cards that matter, not the theme, but would you play magic if it was yugioh arts with backstory written by a 10 year old?.
For anyone saying those planes should be returned to, do you honestly think Kamigawa 2 would be better received than Zendikar or innstrad 2 (or even ravnica 3)? If not, then there is no logical justification to go back to kamigawa before going to either of those planes.
See, the number of customers who actually -want- a return to these planes is pretty small. You may be appeasing some customers, but you're alienating a whole lot more of them. "Homelands", in particular, is perhaps the most infamous set in Magic, and even new players have heard stories about how bad it is. Why would you try and market a product like that?
I think Homelands is so frustrating because they didn't even tell a story. They laid out a backstory, set up some characters, and...that's it. Homelands is unfinished, and we as humans hate to see things unfinished. I think that accounts for a lot of the "return to Homelands" stuff. I also have a suspicion that the Baron will eventually escape from the plane and show up in the future. But other than that, I think the death knell has been sounded for a Homelands return - if they ever want to do Gothic horror again, there's no reason to not return to the far more popular, dynamic, and interesting Innistrad instead.
I think Kamigawa was just a very poor setting. It's slightly popular because a lot of Westerners have a fascination with Japanese culture, but they really dropped the ball on the set with the whole "spirits vs mortals" background, I think. It's more likely to get a return than Homelands, but I think it's far more likely they create a new setting with similar themes than returning to that mess.
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