Up until it was confirmed as being reprinted in 'Theros', it was worth like $75.00. Thankfully, it has dropped in value since the confirmation, but I still need to ask...WHY is this card so expensive? I remember a time when Birds of Paradise was a $20.00 card with the first foil edition from 7th being $100.00. A good card, but not worth that much. Thank god it was reprinted and the value sunk. Thoughtseize seems to me to be worth no more than $5.00. Can someone explain this to me? Thanks.
I hear ya, but that lose 2 life thing gets me every time. I'd much rather use Duress or Hymn to Tourach (Obviously, not in standard).
Hymn doesn't target and can't be played on turn 1, and Duress doesn't get rid of creatures. Thoughtseize is the best targeted removal spell in magic, and because it's black the life loss isn't considered a hefty price tag. This card is the only card in modern to really prevent an early combo, a long with the fact that it's also exceptionally good in legacy, and it's going to dominate it's time in standard.
Because it does a sought-after thing, and it does it better than anything else. If you want to be competitive in magic, you can't just substitute a card that's 10% worse than the best option and hope to do as well. Thoughtseize is the best option most of the time, and one of the best reasons to play black in eternal formats. Duress is sometimes better, but the first time you Thoughtseize a Goblin Lackey or Tarmogoyf, you'll know where your money went.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Up until it was confirmed as being reprinted in 'Theros', it was worth like $75.00. Thankfully, it has dropped in value since the confirmation, but I still need to ask...WHY is this card so expensive? I remember a time when Birds of Paradise was a $20.00 card with the first foil edition from 7th being $100.00. A good card, but not worth that much. Thank god it was reprinted and the value sunk. Thoughtseize seems to me to be worth no more than $5.00. Can someone explain this to me? Thanks.
Senordirtyrat
It's GREAT in every format. From standard to vintage.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Well, it's not quite Morgan Freeman, but I get the picture. BTW, don't people use Dark Ritual anymore in the older formats? Also, to me, Duress becomes a better option when you have bills that take higher priority than a $25 disruption card. I can understand the being able to discard a creature concept...but there are removal spells for that, too...man, a lot has changed these last ten years...
Well, it's not quite Morgan Freeman, but I get the picture. BTW, don't people use Dark Ritual anymore in the older formats? Also, to me, Duress becomes a better option when you have bills that take higher priority than a $25 disruption card. I can understand the being able to discard a creature concept...but there are removal spells for that, too...man, a lot has changed these last ten years...
Why waste removal on creature targets when you can get rid of them before their mana is even cast? I've played with Duress before, but then I tried Thoughtseize for size. Duress doesn't even compare with how powerful TS. I would prefer Inquisition of Kozilek in my opening hand just a tiny amount more because I'm looking to take their mana dork or Bob away.
It's a $25 disruption card that can take close to anything, sees what your opponent has in store for you, and puts you in a reactive state.
Why waste removal on creature targets when you can get rid of them before their mana is even cast? I've played with Duress before, but then I tried Thoughtseize for size. Duress doesn't even compare with how powerful TS. I would prefer Inquisition of Kozilek in my opening hand just a tiny amount more because I'm looking to take their mana dork or Bob away.
It's a $25 disruption card that can take close to anything, sees what your opponent has in store for you, and puts you in a reactive state.
Ok. I have seen players who play control decks get overly excited because they get to counter a spell that their opponent's deck revolves around. Because of this, a card like 'Terminate' for instance, would likely suck the air out of the room when you kill their Tarmogoyf after they believed he would stay in play...
don't people use Dark Ritual anymore in the older formats?
Rituals tend to get used for comboing out quickly, especially with Storm spells. Cards like Thoughtseize tend to get used to stop the combos before they happen.
A blunt answer would be: Because pros are ready to pay that amount of money for it. (Price of such cards is always determined by how much people are ready to pay for it.)
(Of course there are other things that affect what pros are ready to pay for a card. Availability is one. If you can find a certain card in each other booster, then it has basically no value, no matter how much it's being used in pro decks. If you can only find it in one booster out of a thousand, and it's a staple for top decks, then you can be pretty sure that the price will go pretty high.)
As for why pros are ready to pay that kind of money for a certain card, that's another interesting question.
Pro players have very little influence on the price of a particular tournament staple. SCG Open series success generally drives the cost of cards, and Thoughtseize sees a ton of play in legacy, as well as being a very sought after and used card in Modern. It was also not printed in high quantities by today's standards, thus leading to a vast increase in price.
You must have never played with Thoughtseize before.
The card is amazing. It makes decks like JUND so good. JUND doesn't really have a bad match up (some or more favorable than others of course) because of Thoughtseize. Just take away the best card in your opponents hand for one black mana and two life is extremely powerful.
You really need to see it in action in order to truly understand how devastating a T1 Thoughtseize is.
It has the potential to singlehandedly change your opponent's early game tempo/strategy if you pick the right card.
In legacy, Thoughtseize can touch: Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforged Mystic, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn just to name a few. Those are some meta defining top tier creatures I just named. Coupled with the fact that it has the flexibility to take out non creature threats as well justifies its high price point.
I hear ya, but that lose 2 life thing gets me every time. I'd much rather use Duress or Hymn to Tourach (Obviously, not in standard).
As a casual player, those are just fine. I play them and I don't play Thoughtsieze. (I probably would if I owned any.) But as a competitive player, you go for the one that gives you the biggest edge--that is Thoughtsieze. Consider:
It blanks even less often than Duress does, because it is more flexible, you get to choose the card you must get rid of RIGHT NOW OR LOSE (unlike Hymn).
And, of course, R&D made it cost 2 life, so they do realize how dangerous this card is.
Now consider the supply/demand factors:
-It was only printed in a single set.
-It's played in every format it's legal in.
-It is typically played as a four-of..why not?
-The modern format exploded, adding further demand.
-And, of course, the era of Magic as an investment, with hoarders, and crazy price spikes and all that nonsense..
I hear ya, but that lose 2 life thing gets me every time. I'd much rather use Duress or Hymn to Tourach (Obviously, not in standard).
In Black decks, life is a resource, just like mana. You're exchanging life for a chance to cripple the best card they have in their hand, a card which, should it hit the board, will probably lose you the game. Since Thoughtseize is more flexible than Duress (it can target creatures in addition to spells and Planeswalkers), a couple life is going to be well worth that versatility.
Well, it's not quite Morgan Freeman, but I get the picture. BTW, don't people use Dark Ritual anymore in the older formats? Also, to me, Duress becomes a better option when you have bills that take higher priority than a $25 disruption card. I can understand the being able to discard a creature concept...but there are removal spells for that, too...man, a lot has changed these last ten years...
You can. Using dark ritual to play hymn, especially if you're not using that other Lana to play, well, thoughtseize, is a 2 for 2, and is lackluster. On the draw, dark ritual, thoughtseize sinkhole is pretty good.
The fact is, if you're going to bring 'i have bills to pay' into the equation then you really can't afford to play tournament magic. High level tournament magic is expensive. It's a hobby, and hobbies cost money.
If you don't want to buy thoughtseize at $25, then saying it shouldn't be that price because it 'feels like a $5 card' in your opinion isn't going to change things. In the minds of everyone else it's worth $25, and as such it is $25.
If you don't like it, don't play it, but don't expect other people to say there are better options in any circumstances, because as far as targeted spot removal there are not.
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Senordirtyrat
It costs one mana
It sees play in almost every format it can see play in (I'm having doubts that it sees play in Vintage)
qft. played in a plethora of decks in all formats (no idea about vintage). decks do main board it.
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Hymn doesn't target and can't be played on turn 1, and Duress doesn't get rid of creatures. Thoughtseize is the best targeted removal spell in magic, and because it's black the life loss isn't considered a hefty price tag. This card is the only card in modern to really prevent an early combo, a long with the fact that it's also exceptionally good in legacy, and it's going to dominate it's time in standard.
Thoughtseize is still the creme de la creme. The only thing that comes close is Inquisition of Kozilek.
Thoughtseize would plummet like birds if Theros came out with something crazy like
Theroseize B
Target player reveals his or her hand. You may choose a non-enchantment card among them. That player discards that card.
Scry 1.
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10/10, I tapped.
It's GREAT in every format. From standard to vintage.
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Why waste removal on creature targets when you can get rid of them before their mana is even cast? I've played with Duress before, but then I tried Thoughtseize for size. Duress doesn't even compare with how powerful TS. I would prefer Inquisition of Kozilek in my opening hand just a tiny amount more because I'm looking to take their mana dork or Bob away.
It's a $25 disruption card that can take close to anything, sees what your opponent has in store for you, and puts you in a reactive state.
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Ok. I have seen players who play control decks get overly excited because they get to counter a spell that their opponent's deck revolves around. Because of this, a card like 'Terminate' for instance, would likely suck the air out of the room when you kill their Tarmogoyf after they believed he would stay in play...
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Pro players have very little influence on the price of a particular tournament staple. SCG Open series success generally drives the cost of cards, and Thoughtseize sees a ton of play in legacy, as well as being a very sought after and used card in Modern. It was also not printed in high quantities by today's standards, thus leading to a vast increase in price.
The card is amazing. It makes decks like JUND so good. JUND doesn't really have a bad match up (some or more favorable than others of course) because of Thoughtseize. Just take away the best card in your opponents hand for one black mana and two life is extremely powerful.
It has the potential to singlehandedly change your opponent's early game tempo/strategy if you pick the right card.
In legacy, Thoughtseize can touch: Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforged Mystic, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn just to name a few. Those are some meta defining top tier creatures I just named. Coupled with the fact that it has the flexibility to take out non creature threats as well justifies its high price point.
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As a casual player, those are just fine. I play them and I don't play Thoughtsieze. (I probably would if I owned any.) But as a competitive player, you go for the one that gives you the biggest edge--that is Thoughtsieze. Consider:
It blanks even less often than Duress does, because it is more flexible, you get to choose the card you must get rid of RIGHT NOW OR LOSE (unlike Hymn).
And, of course, R&D made it cost 2 life, so they do realize how dangerous this card is.
Now consider the supply/demand factors:
-It was only printed in a single set.
-It's played in every format it's legal in.
-It is typically played as a four-of..why not?
-The modern format exploded, adding further demand.
-And, of course, the era of Magic as an investment, with hoarders, and crazy price spikes and all that nonsense..
Yes, it
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In Black decks, life is a resource, just like mana. You're exchanging life for a chance to cripple the best card they have in their hand, a card which, should it hit the board, will probably lose you the game. Since Thoughtseize is more flexible than Duress (it can target creatures in addition to spells and Planeswalkers), a couple life is going to be well worth that versatility.
You can. Using dark ritual to play hymn, especially if you're not using that other Lana to play, well, thoughtseize, is a 2 for 2, and is lackluster. On the draw, dark ritual, thoughtseize sinkhole is pretty good.
The fact is, if you're going to bring 'i have bills to pay' into the equation then you really can't afford to play tournament magic. High level tournament magic is expensive. It's a hobby, and hobbies cost money.
If you don't want to buy thoughtseize at $25, then saying it shouldn't be that price because it 'feels like a $5 card' in your opinion isn't going to change things. In the minds of everyone else it's worth $25, and as such it is $25.
If you don't like it, don't play it, but don't expect other people to say there are better options in any circumstances, because as far as targeted spot removal there are not.