Restriction breeds creativity. With this much mana fixing, most decks become goodstuff.dec and archetypes begin to bleed together. The last time I had any interest in Standard was when I was playing U/B Control during Scars of Mirrodin/Innistrad. Playing tri-color decks used to be something I really enjoyed; a given, considering I started playing full time during Apocalypse. But, it's boring and trite, now.
It's unfortunate that people have become so spoiled. In Zendikar we had enemy fetchlands; in Scars of Mirrodin we had the speedlands; in Innistrad enemy check lands; Return to Ravnica shocklands; and every set since M10 had the original checklands. It's truthfully rather asinine.
Three colour decks can still get mana screwed. As a Jund player, I've experienced it first hand.
Oh, yes, but it's still way easier to support three colors than most formats I've played. Compared to the past, I have absolutely no problem running 3 colors in Standard today.
WotC has never said that the mana in current Standard is too good.
Random people on the internet are saying that the mana in standard is too good. People keep saying that WotC said it, but I've never actually seen a source to back this up.
1) The mana in Standard is very good
2) R&D intentionally made the mana in Standard very good to support the multicolor theme of RTR block
3) Mana will get worse at rotation
He never says or implies that the mana in Standard is too good, merely that it is very good and that, come rotation, the pendulum will swing the other way and mana will get worse. In other words, they intended to make the mana as good as it is right now, and are fine with the result. Standard is an ever-changing and evolving format. They don't want the mana to be this good all the time, but they're not unhappy with making it this good some of the time when the format calls for it. Here are a few choice tidbits from that article that support this argument:
Quote from "Sam Stoddard" »
Current Standard mana bases are about as strong as we have ever allowed mana to be in Standard. ... By the time Gatecrash was released, we saw a great number of three-color aggro and control decks, and this really afforded players to cast the Return to Ravnica cards they wanted without going too far out of their way. I think this was tremendous boon for Return to Ravnica block.
Quote from "Sam Stoddard" »
As Zac Hill mentioned last year, the core duals introduced with M10 wouldn't have been included in M13 except for how well they played with the Ravnica shocklands... . It was very important for us that Return to Ravnica, a block based around multicolor cards, have the Standard support to make said multicolor cards playable.
Quote from "Sam Stoddard" »
Everything in Magic is cyclical. I think if you asked most people what the most powerful part of Standard is right now, you would get a lot of different answers—the creatures, the spells, the Planeswalkers. I don't think many people would answer what I believe is the actual answer—the mana. While the mana bases in Standard may not be up to the level of mana bases in Modern or Legacy, they are a fundamental part to many of the top decks right now, and have allowed almost every deck in the format to exist without having to put a whole lot of thought into its mana base.
While we have no intention of going back to an era where players are unable to cast their spells, we are leaving an era of Standard where mana fixing was overly abundant, and most importantly incredibly easy. The opportunity cost was almost zero, but that was done intentionally to support the Return to Ravnica block.
If mana-fixing is perfect, then 3-color decks are strictly better than 2-color decks, since there is no drawback to using the options afforded by the third color. Logically, there are 5 ways to make a monocolor deck, 10 2-color decks, 10 3-color decks, 5 4-color decks, and one 5-color deck. Thus, in terms of deck diversity, the best manafixing provides for 3-color and 2-color decks in equal measure. Right now in standard, the mana is too good, because it's too easy to make a deck 3 colors without color-screw. This shuts out all possible two color decks. Burning Earth Alleviates this somewhat, but I suspect they will want to push the pendulum closer to 2.5 colors post-rotation.
Right now in standard, the mana is too good, because it's too easy to make a deck 3 colors without color-screw.
I disagree. Color screw is perfect. I'd say I get color screwed 10% - 15% of the time with a three color deck (only 1 U source when I have a Dissipate in hand on turn 3, only 2 G sources with Garruk on turn 5, etc.). How bad do you want it to be?
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Mana screw is an important part of the game. Having three sets of duals in Standard, even if one is only limited filler, is too good. Along with the keyrunes and cluestones. And Chromatic Lantern.
One aspect of this is replacing something like Farseek or Rampant Growth is too good for mana fixing. Even Arbor Elf is too good with shocklands out there. So we instead get something like Lay of the Land: Cheaper, yes, but—critically—it doesn't actually accelerate mana.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
There most certainly will. Good mana fixing is cyclical. Some players like it, some don't so you get peaks and valleys of good mana fixing. Theros block will probably have bad fixing, but we'll probably get better fixing in the next block and if not almost certainly the block after that.
Yes, that makes sense; I myself do wish that WotC would reprint the dual lands from Innistrad (clifftop retreat, hinterland harbor, and so forth), to make them more affordable and easier to obtain, but I have no other wishes in the realm of mana fixing at this moment.
I agree with the general consensus that one- or two-colored decks should be the easiest to build and play, and that some three-colored decks can still be viable, albeit more difficult/complex to build and play, but four- and five-colored decks should not be viable, except under very rare and specific circumstances, so it should not be possible to be able to play mana-intensive cards of different colors in the same deck. For example, I can accept being able to play broodmate dragon and Rakdos the Defiler in the same deck, but most certainly not cryptic command in that same deck.
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Most decks in Lorwyn/Alara were not multicolor goodstuff decks. 5 color control was NOT the only deck that existed... not even close. For at least half of Lorwyn/Alara (pre- Volcanic Fallout), Faeries was still the best deck which was heavy U with a splash of B. You had various Wx token decks running on Windbrisk Heights, some Reveillark decks, Demigod Red (mono colored) and some green based aggro decks. I'm confused about how this is a problem. Again, the best deck was an almost mono colored deck that splashed B and you had some strong mono-colored aggro strategies (mono W Kithkin, mono R Demigod) and two color strategies (Boat Brew, WB tokens, GW tokens).
The vivid land cycle + Reflecting Pool was powerful but slow and often clunky, which is why only 5 color control decks bothered running it.
I think WOTC may be under the impression that "mana" is too good at the moment because, if you look at playing a UW control deck there is really no reason not to run R (so you end up playing UWR control/flash) because your mana has no setbacks really. Instead of running just H. Fountain and G. Fortress and then a bunch of islands and plains, you are running Steam Vents, Sulfur Falls, Clifftop Retreat and Sacred Foundry in some/all of those basic land slots.
Running 3 colors is basically freerolling right now because we have 10 checklands and 10 shocklands. A deck like Jund has some pretty heavy mana requirements (GGG garruk, BB liliana, GR huntmaster, turn 2 green for farseek, BR olivia and more) and almost always has its colors.
Look at a deck like Naya blitz (or naya aggro/midrange). Blitz has some decent early game requirements with wanting to play early drops in 3 colors and it can usually succeed in that department.
These decks are all popular decks (and not even all the 3 color decks that are coompetitive) and all are 3 colors.
Assuming we get 5 lands in Theros (either ally or enemy), manabases will be toned back a bit when Theros arrives. They may not even put the lands in Theros, but in Nyx (come april).
I think making colors harder to splash makes the game more accessible. Like imagine a new player getting into magic or returning after years. Has maybe a $100 to start up with, asks what's a strong deck to play. You have to make a grimace and explain that $100 doesn't even cover the cost of mana anymore in most competitive decks.
Half the reason I play B/W humans is because my mana pool is literally free. That frees up a lot of money to spend on cards that contribute to the game directly. Mana shouldn't be a barrier to starting the game. When a new players asks about the guildgates someone gave him for free, you shouldn't laugh at him.
I completely agree that Ravnica block should be a color intensive block, I mean it exemplifies the potential of multicolored cards. But mana is so easily fixed most of those cards are trash.
I was just brewing a deck to try and make these hydras I traded for semi-viable. Was like "ok Corpsejack Menace could totally abuse hydra cards if I play it turn 3. Then I'm thinking Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch would be really worth splashing for. As I dig through card image galleries looking for cards that abuse tokens I come to the horrible realization that I'm designing a Jund deck, and that nothing I put in it would be competitive against the deck 60% of players use.
When you design a deck now, it is extremely hard to justify not adding a third color, there's honestly no good reason not to. Burning Earth was ok for a day, but Golgari Charm, Naturalize, Erase, ring and sphere really neutralize that card. BE is not enough of a reason to run 1 or 2 colors. I think it severely limits card value and creativity being forced to run 3 colors just to be competitive.
I think making colors harder to splash makes the game more accessible. Like imagine a new player getting into magic or returning after years. Has maybe a $100 to start up with, asks what's a strong deck to play. You have to make a grimace and explain that $100 doesn't even cover the cost of mana anymore in most competitive decks.
That's an argument against rare dual lands, not good mana fixing.
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Currently, three colours are normal, four are acceptable but fragile, five is a bit tough, two or one provide no advantage.
Some standard seasons ago, one colour (usually black or red) was competitive, two colours was normal, three colours were either green and two others or risky, four or five colours were asking for trouble.
The latter is a far healthier situation; colour constraints improve deck diversity.
If I did not ask this earlier: is that also why WotD did not include any dual lands in Magic 2014? Did they wish to encourage players focus more strongly on monocolored playing styles than on multicolored playing styles?
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If I did not ask this earlier: is that also why WotD did not include any dual lands in Magic 2014? Did they wish to encourage players focus more strongly on monocolored playing styles than on multicolored playing styles?
Technically speaking I would assume the reason they didn't include Duals in M14 is they weren't reprinted the Checklands, they didn't want to give us more fixing and they are putting lands into Theros to replace the Checks instead.
They have said they are pushing mono-color in Theros which I think will lend itself to two color decks using the guild cards as well as a couple of mono-colored strategies that synergize well. In addition they feel the duals in Theros aren't as good with Shocks as Checks are so hopefully we won't have such insane mana that will ruin this.
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It's unfortunate that people have become so spoiled. In Zendikar we had enemy fetchlands; in Scars of Mirrodin we had the speedlands; in Innistrad enemy check lands; Return to Ravnica shocklands; and every set since M10 had the original checklands. It's truthfully rather asinine.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Oh, yes, but it's still way easier to support three colors than most formats I've played. Compared to the past, I have absolutely no problem running 3 colors in Standard today.
Random people on the internet are saying that the mana in standard is too good. People keep saying that WotC said it, but I've never actually seen a source to back this up.
Most people point to the article on the mothership where it was announced that there would be no dual land cycle in M14 as evidence that WotC thinks the mana in standard is too good, but that's not what the article actually says. Sam Stoddard, the author of the article and a developer in Magic R&D, says that:
1) The mana in Standard is very good
2) R&D intentionally made the mana in Standard very good to support the multicolor theme of RTR block
3) Mana will get worse at rotation
He never says or implies that the mana in Standard is too good, merely that it is very good and that, come rotation, the pendulum will swing the other way and mana will get worse. In other words, they intended to make the mana as good as it is right now, and are fine with the result. Standard is an ever-changing and evolving format. They don't want the mana to be this good all the time, but they're not unhappy with making it this good some of the time when the format calls for it. Here are a few choice tidbits from that article that support this argument:
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
One aspect of this is replacing something like Farseek or Rampant Growth is too good for mana fixing. Even Arbor Elf is too good with shocklands out there. So we instead get something like Lay of the Land: Cheaper, yes, but—critically—it doesn't actually accelerate mana.
On phasing:
Yes, that makes sense; I myself do wish that WotC would reprint the dual lands from Innistrad (clifftop retreat, hinterland harbor, and so forth), to make them more affordable and easier to obtain, but I have no other wishes in the realm of mana fixing at this moment.
I agree with the general consensus that one- or two-colored decks should be the easiest to build and play, and that some three-colored decks can still be viable, albeit more difficult/complex to build and play, but four- and five-colored decks should not be viable, except under very rare and specific circumstances, so it should not be possible to be able to play mana-intensive cards of different colors in the same deck. For example, I can accept being able to play broodmate dragon and Rakdos the Defiler in the same deck, but most certainly not cryptic command in that same deck.
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I don't see why not?
Most decks in Lorwyn/Alara were not multicolor goodstuff decks. 5 color control was NOT the only deck that existed... not even close. For at least half of Lorwyn/Alara (pre- Volcanic Fallout), Faeries was still the best deck which was heavy U with a splash of B. You had various Wx token decks running on Windbrisk Heights, some Reveillark decks, Demigod Red (mono colored) and some green based aggro decks. I'm confused about how this is a problem. Again, the best deck was an almost mono colored deck that splashed B and you had some strong mono-colored aggro strategies (mono W Kithkin, mono R Demigod) and two color strategies (Boat Brew, WB tokens, GW tokens).
The vivid land cycle + Reflecting Pool was powerful but slow and often clunky, which is why only 5 color control decks bothered running it.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Random fact of the day?
Mana fixing that can support 3 colors is already great mana fixing.
Running 3 colors is basically freerolling right now because we have 10 checklands and 10 shocklands. A deck like Jund has some pretty heavy mana requirements (GGG garruk, BB liliana, GR huntmaster, turn 2 green for farseek, BR olivia and more) and almost always has its colors.
Look at a deck like Naya blitz (or naya aggro/midrange). Blitz has some decent early game requirements with wanting to play early drops in 3 colors and it can usually succeed in that department.
These decks are all popular decks (and not even all the 3 color decks that are coompetitive) and all are 3 colors.
Assuming we get 5 lands in Theros (either ally or enemy), manabases will be toned back a bit when Theros arrives. They may not even put the lands in Theros, but in Nyx (come april).
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
Wotc constantly changes around what areas of the game are strong and which are not. they do this to keep the game fresh.
It's not that WOTC dislikes the mana fixing per-se. It's just that they don't want to have this much mana fixing all the time.
Agreed. We've had a year of perfect three color mana fixing. They'll let the pendulum shift back soon enough.
Half the reason I play B/W humans is because my mana pool is literally free. That frees up a lot of money to spend on cards that contribute to the game directly. Mana shouldn't be a barrier to starting the game. When a new players asks about the guildgates someone gave him for free, you shouldn't laugh at him.
I completely agree that Ravnica block should be a color intensive block, I mean it exemplifies the potential of multicolored cards. But mana is so easily fixed most of those cards are trash.
I was just brewing a deck to try and make these hydras I traded for semi-viable. Was like "ok Corpsejack Menace could totally abuse hydra cards if I play it turn 3. Then I'm thinking Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch would be really worth splashing for. As I dig through card image galleries looking for cards that abuse tokens I come to the horrible realization that I'm designing a Jund deck, and that nothing I put in it would be competitive against the deck 60% of players use.
When you design a deck now, it is extremely hard to justify not adding a third color, there's honestly no good reason not to. Burning Earth was ok for a day, but Golgari Charm, Naturalize, Erase, ring and sphere really neutralize that card. BE is not enough of a reason to run 1 or 2 colors. I think it severely limits card value and creativity being forced to run 3 colors just to be competitive.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
Some standard seasons ago, one colour (usually black or red) was competitive, two colours was normal, three colours were either green and two others or risky, four or five colours were asking for trouble.
The latter is a far healthier situation; colour constraints improve deck diversity.
Yeah but its a valid point because most of the good mana fixing right now is done through rare dual lands.
I don't think you seriously compete in today's standard without spending the money (or aquiring through some other means) on some rare dual lands.
Take a look at the top decks in any tournament over the past 6 months. How many of those decks do not use Ravnica duals?
G Elves
U Merfolk
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Technically speaking I would assume the reason they didn't include Duals in M14 is they weren't reprinted the Checklands, they didn't want to give us more fixing and they are putting lands into Theros to replace the Checks instead.
They have said they are pushing mono-color in Theros which I think will lend itself to two color decks using the guild cards as well as a couple of mono-colored strategies that synergize well. In addition they feel the duals in Theros aren't as good with Shocks as Checks are so hopefully we won't have such insane mana that will ruin this.