For my entire time playing Magic Modern has been a thing, so I know I am missing most of the point. So can someone enlighten me as to why Modern was created and eventually replaced Extended? Was Modern always intended to compete with/replace Extended? Was Extended in a bad place before Modern was created?
Old extended was kinda like block constructed. No one liked it and they only played it when they had to (ie. ptq season). They tried to spice things up by changing it to only the last 4 blocks (I guess to improve accessibility?), but that didn't really change how people felt, and it literally was just a battle of old standard decks.
I think the intention of Modern was to create a non-rotating format that was more accessible than legacy. Everyone knew that unless something changed, PT Philadelphia was going to be an extremely boring tournament since scapeshift, faeries, and cawblade were the only viable decks (and cawlade was just better), so less than 2 months before the pro tour wizards suddenly announced a format change to salvage the event. (of course, the pt ended up being infamous as half the games ended by turn 4)
Modern replaced Extended for a couple reason, the biggest was that it gave a much larger card pool then the current Extended did, when Wizards started doing all the rules changes for formats Extended basically became Double Standard and didn't have a large enough card pool to define any real archetypes or if it did it was maybe 1 or 2 at most with whatever the best deck in Standard was a couple years ago was now the best deck in Extended. Also with Modern's ability is be a larger format it was inevitable that eventually magic would become Standard / Modern / Legacy.
EDIT: just to add, when I say "Extended" I mean the pre-Modern Extended ("double Standard"), not the old Extended. Old Extended is actually worse than Modern.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
For my entire time playing Magic Modern has been a thing, so I know I am missing most of the point. So can someone enlighten me as to why Modern was created and eventually replaced Extended? Was Modern always intended to compete with/replace Extended? Was Extended in a bad place before Modern was created?
Originally, extended was mean to be a non-rotating format. It was the bridge between eternal and standard.
Then, someone in wizards decided to make extended rotate. Not only rotate, but rotate at nearly the same pace as standard. While extended doesn't rotate sets yearly like standard does, it rotates out 3 sets every 3 years. This... was an unpopular decision, because the people who wanted a non-rotating format no longer wanted to play extended.
Modern is a non-rotating format*. People who liked the original extended also liked it.
*Maybe. I wouldn't put it past wizards to change it, like they did extended.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
For my entire time playing Magic Modern has been a thing, so I know I am missing most of the point. So can someone enlighten me as to why Modern was created and eventually replaced Extended? Was Modern always intended to compete with/replace Extended? Was Extended in a bad place before Modern was created?
I remember when Extended (then Type 1.X) came out. Nobody cared then, and nobody has ever since. Standard is and probably always will be the flagship rotating format, and people who want to play "all the cards" have always played legacy.
Modern was a smart move, and intended from the start to replace both Extended AND Legacy. Extended didn't take long because nobody really cares. Legacy isn't going anywhere any time soon, but as long as the reserve list exists, it is doomed to slide slowly into obscurity, just as Vintage did.
Don't hate on me, I love Legacy, and am close to owning Maverick, Zombardment, and Pox. But it's doomed. When I stopped playing Magic around '99, you could get duals for $10, moxes for $100, and a lotus for $300, yet "Type 1" was already sliding in popularity. I was totally unsurprised when I returned last year to find Vintage is basically dead. If prices of duals, FOW, Jace, and other cards continue to go up, new players who grow out of standard will run to modern. It's inevitable, and unfortunate. Modern, for better or worse, is the future.
7 year extended had a general problem of not getting enough interest during ptq offseason, but its death (well, not death but transition into Double Standard which was a death sentence) may have been induced by a particularly unbalanced season when a combo deck playing Dark Depths with Vampire Hexmage and Thopter Foundry with Sword of the Meek, which was initially two separate decks but eventually fused together, put up crazy good results for a whole ptq season. Cutting the size of the format down to 4 blocks would effectively remove these combos, so it was an opportune time to experiment with the format. Unfortunately, Double Standard sucked hard, consisting mostly of recent dominant Standard decks (Cawblade for example) and not much else. Then a shadowy cult of Arcbound Ravager lovers conspired to convince wotc that Modern would be a player supported format, and that's how we got to present day.
I don't think Modern "replaced" extended. Modern was created to fill a role that wasn't covered by any other format: a non rotating format without a reserve list.
Extended was never popular outside of the PT events with it, no one ever played it, and with people adopting Modern, keeping Extended made even less sense.
don't be rediculas Modern was designed to kill Legacy, Killing Extended was just an added perk. Now Legacy isn't going down with out a combo! (something modern would never know about or expect really) Right now they are holding the line with some of the best stacks/stasis decks around, Ultimately however the young new format will unfortunately beat out Legacy even with its awesome combo/control viable Huge selection of amazing decks. Just too many people want to play creatures and turn sideways instead of try to out think their opponents with a strong control/combo. its sad but true, Modern is the only format that will retain its true form.
The only reason most people played extended was because of PTQ season.
I'm pretty sure Modern is very, very similiar to this, but because it's new, and because it is a lot more like old extended, there are more players who want to play it.
Also, because it's standard season right now, the grinders are playing standard, so Modern is a format for sligtly-less skill intensive players to do really well in small events, which then bolsters their desire to win, which means they'll play more, which means they'll get better.
Honestly, Modern seems like it should be a great format, definitely better than ever iteration of extended past the first one, which I seem to remember a lot of people playing during Arena when I was a kid.
There are some weird problems with modern, starting with the fact that they would have needed a FFL of 200 people working for a year and a half before they announced it for Modern to actually have been what they wanted it to be, but maybe one day. Until then, in my eyes, Modern is the exact same format as extended, something I'm forever fearful of touching the cards for unless I really think I can win a PTQ.
Modern's already seeing an uptick in MODO play and the constant stream of rising prices even during the offseason is an indicator its popularity is rising.
Modern's already seeing an uptick in MODO play and the constant stream of rising prices even during the offseason is an indicator its popularity is rising.
Players want an eternal format, and Modern is the one that Wizards are pushing. It's seeing an uptick because there are a lot of new players for whom modern is an extension of standard, just with older cards. They don't know anything other than this age of magic, so they don't feel like they've lost anything. Then you have the older players for whom the format isn't very appealing, because they are used to the older style of game in which you could be attacked from literally any angle.
I think legacy will die in the long run, but I don't believe that that older play style will disappear entirely. I believe there's a certain section of the population, even amongst newer players, that are interested in that style of magic, but no one is really catering to their needs right now. Maybe a new format will spring up that uses a legacy base but bans the reserve list, thus giving those players a home, and providing a format with longevity for current legacy players. It still doesn't solve the issue of expensive staples, but in theory, Wizards could support such a format by reprinting cards for it. Or they could, y'know, abolish the reserve list, but if it hasn't happened by now, I doubt it ever will.
Players want an eternal format, and Modern is the one that Wizards are pushing.
Modern is not an eternal format. Non-rotating doesnt mean eternal.
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This is not how bans/unbans work. Its always the enabler that gets the ban, not the card that is being abused. If you would have Yawgmoths will + whatever cards - it would be Yawgs that would be banned. If you would have Stoneforge and batterskull - it would be stone who would be banned and that is exactly how it works. Furthermore, banning a card in order to unban a different card is a thought process that was and wont be never applied in practical means.
I'm not a fan of Modern, but Modern replaced Extended because it's simply a better format.
Wizards gutted the old Extended format violently in a series of steps:
- Changing the banned and restricted lists way too frequently ("Ban everything until Necro is good again, then ban Necro and you're done.")
- Changing the format from one which rotated every three years to one that rotated every year. People wanted a format where they wouldn't have to constantly keep up with rotations. At least Modern doesn't suffer from this problem.
- Changing the format from a 7-year format to a 4-year format. This was absolutely killer. Basically, it ensured that Extended players would only see ports of recent Standard decks.
- Announcing Modern. Why would anyone want to play Extended when Modern has a larger card pool, and Extended really doesn't offer any advantages over Modern (frequent rotations, same restricted banned list, overpowered combos)?
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What does any of this mean ? I can't make sense from this... What are you trying to say, exactly ?
I tried reading what he wrote several times, but the only thing that made sense to me was the emoticon. It sounds like another "Legacy is dying" chicken little post though.
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I tried reading what he wrote several times, but the only thing that made sense to me was the emoticon. It sounds like another "Legacy is dying" chicken little post though.
I was going to post "wut?", then reread the post. Again. And again.
And again.
Here's my interpretation
1) Modern was design to kill legacy
2) Legacy has a more diverse meta, including combo decks
3) Doesn't matter, because people just like swinging with creatures.
4) The last sentence is *probably* a poorly worded version of "modern is a non-rotating format"
5) The bit about stasis is just likely being misinformed of what kinds of decks are prominent in legacy. Understandable, because I've met people who think stasis is the best deck in magic, ever.
Its a different format that achieves different goals, but I wouldn't say it was "better".
Modern has a much higher barrier of entry in terms of the size of the card pool, the age of the cards and the prices, and the power level and number of different rules and mechanics that need to be learnt. It also has a much bigger ban list that changes frequently. Going from Standard to Modern is a much bigger (and harsher) transition than going from Standard to Extended.
See above.
Besides, being able to play your Standard decks for longer is one of the perks of Extended, not one of the downsides.
~ Tim
While I can see your point in theory, I think the dismal attendance record of Extended events (after it was changed to consist of only the last four blocks) indicates that most players disagreed.
Personally for me, Extended hasn't been appealing to me for at least 10 years (and I never played in an Extended event), and Modern has never appealed to me at all. I'm just speculating as to what most players prefer (at least among those who would play Modern and/or Extended), and your points are duly noted.
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Extended was (sadly) not very popular; it was only played during the PTQ season. I liked it a lot because for that reason, it was a VERY competitive format that didn't need much regulations. 20/20 flying indestructible creatures on turn 2 where fine because everything was competitive, everyone knew you had to deal with that kind of stuff; things weren't banned because they seemed "inherently" unfair as long as it was possible to keep them in check at all.
Still, it just wasn't popular, since it was a pure spikey tournament format, and even that only during one season a year. There were some cosmetic fixes (like rotating every year instead of every three years because "no one knew when or what rotated in Extended" -- which was true, but also not reeaally relevant) and finally, the reduction of 7 blocks to 4 blocks, which was obviously just a death sentence, because it took away every interesting thing Extended had while fixing none of the problems. Consequently, it was stripped of any tournament relevance immediately, with even the only Pro Tour to ever hold such an Extended tournament basically getting an emergency change to the newly developed "Modern".
Modern fixed a lot of problems simply because a non-rotating format has the potential to build up momentum gradually from people who are just interested in the format. Since Modern was supposed to be established as a mainstream format, the philosophy/banning strategy also is vastly different from the old Extended, which is probably an even bigger change than non-rotating formats. I think there was a time when in Extended, only Skullclamp and Disciple of the Vault (?) were banned, which is such a tremendous change if you compare it to today's banned list, even if you just look at the cards from Mirrodin to Time Spiral Block that are banned.
In general, they tried to strip the format of unfair looking decks. While I think I would have preferred a format without many bannings, I both think they did a pretty good job at what they did and also that it is more appealing to more players.
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Sometimes those with the most sin cast the first stones.
Modern is not an eternal format. Non-rotating doesnt mean eternal.
Yeah, my bad, I meant non-rotating. The point I made still stands though; players want to get value out of their cards beyond standard, especially given the prices of current staples.
From my understanding, Eternal means every card not on the B/R list is legal. That includes cards like Shardless Agent and The Mimeoplasm which were released in supplemental sets but not into Standard. Non-rotating just means that once a card is added to the format's pool, it isn't removed (unless it gets banned).
So an eternal set is by definition non-rotating, but not vice versa.
I think the intention of Modern was to create a non-rotating format that was more accessible than legacy. Everyone knew that unless something changed, PT Philadelphia was going to be an extremely boring tournament since scapeshift, faeries, and cawblade were the only viable decks (and cawlade was just better), so less than 2 months before the pro tour wizards suddenly announced a format change to salvage the event. (of course, the pt ended up being infamous as half the games ended by turn 4)
No , extended has actually been removed.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdaily%2Fother%2F07222013
From today.
Originally, extended was mean to be a non-rotating format. It was the bridge between eternal and standard.
Then, someone in wizards decided to make extended rotate. Not only rotate, but rotate at nearly the same pace as standard. While extended doesn't rotate sets yearly like standard does, it rotates out 3 sets every 3 years. This... was an unpopular decision, because the people who wanted a non-rotating format no longer wanted to play extended.
Modern is a non-rotating format*. People who liked the original extended also liked it.
*Maybe. I wouldn't put it past wizards to change it, like they did extended.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I remember when Extended (then Type 1.X) came out. Nobody cared then, and nobody has ever since. Standard is and probably always will be the flagship rotating format, and people who want to play "all the cards" have always played legacy.
Modern was a smart move, and intended from the start to replace both Extended AND Legacy. Extended didn't take long because nobody really cares. Legacy isn't going anywhere any time soon, but as long as the reserve list exists, it is doomed to slide slowly into obscurity, just as Vintage did.
Don't hate on me, I love Legacy, and am close to owning Maverick, Zombardment, and Pox. But it's doomed. When I stopped playing Magic around '99, you could get duals for $10, moxes for $100, and a lotus for $300, yet "Type 1" was already sliding in popularity. I was totally unsurprised when I returned last year to find Vintage is basically dead. If prices of duals, FOW, Jace, and other cards continue to go up, new players who grow out of standard will run to modern. It's inevitable, and unfortunate. Modern, for better or worse, is the future.
Extended was never popular outside of the PT events with it, no one ever played it, and with people adopting Modern, keeping Extended made even less sense.
I'm pretty sure Modern is very, very similiar to this, but because it's new, and because it is a lot more like old extended, there are more players who want to play it.
Also, because it's standard season right now, the grinders are playing standard, so Modern is a format for sligtly-less skill intensive players to do really well in small events, which then bolsters their desire to win, which means they'll play more, which means they'll get better.
Honestly, Modern seems like it should be a great format, definitely better than ever iteration of extended past the first one, which I seem to remember a lot of people playing during Arena when I was a kid.
There are some weird problems with modern, starting with the fact that they would have needed a FFL of 200 people working for a year and a half before they announced it for Modern to actually have been what they wanted it to be, but maybe one day. Until then, in my eyes, Modern is the exact same format as extended, something I'm forever fearful of touching the cards for unless I really think I can win a PTQ.
Players want an eternal format, and Modern is the one that Wizards are pushing. It's seeing an uptick because there are a lot of new players for whom modern is an extension of standard, just with older cards. They don't know anything other than this age of magic, so they don't feel like they've lost anything. Then you have the older players for whom the format isn't very appealing, because they are used to the older style of game in which you could be attacked from literally any angle.
I think legacy will die in the long run, but I don't believe that that older play style will disappear entirely. I believe there's a certain section of the population, even amongst newer players, that are interested in that style of magic, but no one is really catering to their needs right now. Maybe a new format will spring up that uses a legacy base but bans the reserve list, thus giving those players a home, and providing a format with longevity for current legacy players. It still doesn't solve the issue of expensive staples, but in theory, Wizards could support such a format by reprinting cards for it. Or they could, y'know, abolish the reserve list, but if it hasn't happened by now, I doubt it ever will.
Modern is not an eternal format. Non-rotating doesnt mean eternal.
Wizards gutted the old Extended format violently in a series of steps:
- Changing the banned and restricted lists way too frequently ("Ban everything until Necro is good again, then ban Necro and you're done.")
- Changing the format from one which rotated every three years to one that rotated every year. People wanted a format where they wouldn't have to constantly keep up with rotations. At least Modern doesn't suffer from this problem.
- Changing the format from a 7-year format to a 4-year format. This was absolutely killer. Basically, it ensured that Extended players would only see ports of recent Standard decks.
- Announcing Modern. Why would anyone want to play Extended when Modern has a larger card pool, and Extended really doesn't offer any advantages over Modern (frequent rotations, same restricted banned list, overpowered combos)?
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingI tried reading what he wrote several times, but the only thing that made sense to me was the emoticon. It sounds like another "Legacy is dying" chicken little post though.
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingI was going to post "wut?", then reread the post. Again. And again.
And again.
Here's my interpretation
1) Modern was design to kill legacy
2) Legacy has a more diverse meta, including combo decks
3) Doesn't matter, because people just like swinging with creatures.
4) The last sentence is *probably* a poorly worded version of "modern is a non-rotating format"
5) The bit about stasis is just likely being misinformed of what kinds of decks are prominent in legacy. Understandable, because I've met people who think stasis is the best deck in magic, ever.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
While I can see your point in theory, I think the dismal attendance record of Extended events (after it was changed to consist of only the last four blocks) indicates that most players disagreed.
Personally for me, Extended hasn't been appealing to me for at least 10 years (and I never played in an Extended event), and Modern has never appealed to me at all. I'm just speculating as to what most players prefer (at least among those who would play Modern and/or Extended), and your points are duly noted.
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingStill, it just wasn't popular, since it was a pure spikey tournament format, and even that only during one season a year. There were some cosmetic fixes (like rotating every year instead of every three years because "no one knew when or what rotated in Extended" -- which was true, but also not reeaally relevant) and finally, the reduction of 7 blocks to 4 blocks, which was obviously just a death sentence, because it took away every interesting thing Extended had while fixing none of the problems. Consequently, it was stripped of any tournament relevance immediately, with even the only Pro Tour to ever hold such an Extended tournament basically getting an emergency change to the newly developed "Modern".
Modern fixed a lot of problems simply because a non-rotating format has the potential to build up momentum gradually from people who are just interested in the format. Since Modern was supposed to be established as a mainstream format, the philosophy/banning strategy also is vastly different from the old Extended, which is probably an even bigger change than non-rotating formats. I think there was a time when in Extended, only Skullclamp and Disciple of the Vault (?) were banned, which is such a tremendous change if you compare it to today's banned list, even if you just look at the cards from Mirrodin to Time Spiral Block that are banned.
In general, they tried to strip the format of unfair looking decks. While I think I would have preferred a format without many bannings, I both think they did a pretty good job at what they did and also that it is more appealing to more players.
Yeah, my bad, I meant non-rotating. The point I made still stands though; players want to get value out of their cards beyond standard, especially given the prices of current staples.
Then came Type 1 (and even 1.5) and Type 2 and Standard and Block and Extended.
Wizards just made it official.
I've heard someone say that before but I still don't understand. How do you figure that to be true
Under their format section they only list Legacy and Vintage as Eternal formats; Modern is under the "Constructed" list.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
So an eternal set is by definition non-rotating, but not vice versa.
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