I feel like any logical player and member of the Magic "community" appreciates immensely what Wafo-Tapa and Matignon did. We play the game, we use the new sets to do it, so knowing the cards ahead of time is just all upside. I loved seeing what was in the set and having my chance to get Splinter Twins and SFM for more reasonable prices before the SCG machine got at em. I loved having extra time to brew with the new cards so that by the time that first NPH Standard event fired I already knew the meta to expect. nobody had their time "ruined" by seeing cards a month early. Who actually wants to read Wizards spoilers anyway? They always either overhype a crappy card, make invalid comparisons to a card that rotated ages ago, or are involved in some Young Adult "fantasy" storytelling in the completely unengaging world they decide we're on this month. The only people who get their panties in a twist are those who lost money on the deal, namely Hasbro employees
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
Okay, so I ran into other people saying similar things (although, I am actually not alone with these views). It got me thinking if I've just gotten this whole thing wrong somehow. I did read about it when it happened, but there seems to some kind of disconnect here so can anyone link me to an unbiased/official account of the Wafo-Tapa incindent so I could go through it again?
I still feel like my point is valid, but I also want review this and think it through again.
Sorry that this doesn't exactly go under the OP, but I didn't want to start a new thread just for this.
Matignon had the godbook.
He shared it with Wafo-Tapa.
Wafo-Tapa, apparently, shared it with a guy he knew named Martial Moreau, who shared it with a guy HE knew named David Gauthier.
Gauthier then shared it with random people in an IRC chatroom.
Matignon was the ultimate source (had the info from Wizards), Gauthier was (as far as I can tell/remember) the person who spread it far and wide.
I'm shocked that nobody is mentioning Saito's TWO long suspensions for bribery and stalling.
I'm pretty sure that's because people already know about those things, though perhaps not. The first was for what I would call an bizarre form of unsporting conduct that also falls under cheating. I don't think that anything should be a disqualifying factor for the HoF (especially when Bob Maher is in the HoF, what he was involved is far worse than any individual thing Saito did), but I do agree that needs another big achievement before getting in.
As for voting, I find the whole process irritating. Every year or two, some leading voices in the community pick a player or two and start a big campaign for them, which leads to people who are unsure being shamed into thinking their somehow doing something wrong. Every cherry picked statistic will be pulled out to support the candidacy of those people. Thus you have undeserving players like Steve OMS (I remember one argument for him being that he top 16ed lots of GPs... of course when many of those came in an era when GPs were trivial in size compared to modern GPs) get in over far more qualified people because he was/is friends with VIPs.
This year you have LSV being a class above the rest, followed by Mihara, who is closely followed by Jensen. After that, it really depends on what you value and whether or not you support the idea of a "big" HoF.
Chris Pikula needs to be in more of these lists. He has good stats including 3 Pt top 8s. He was also voted into the Magic invitational more times than any other player int he world, and won one of them, creating Meddling Mage and makign a lasting imprint on the game. Finally, his impressive results were by a player who by all accounts was one of the most upstanding players ever on the PT during a time when cheating was rampant (Justice, Long, etc...) - if he was at his peak now I'd not be surprised if he had a similar record to some of the real heavy-hitters.
The rest of my ballot would be LSV, Huey, Stark, and I'm not 100% sure on the final spot. Justice and Saito are out for me for cheating (although I do think Mike Long should be in the HoF but banned for life, since his fame as the villain of the PT did enhance the game for many for a long time, he should be the one exception to the rule and with a lifetime ban so he can't benefit from it). The Japanese players are a dead heat IMHO, and Wafo-Tapa's use of spoilers is borderline for me.
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I'm shocked that nobody is mentioning Saito's TWO long suspensions for bribery and stalling.
I think most people just don't mention Saito. Wasn't he already disqualified for one Hall of Fame year? He hasn't really done much since his suspension was up as far as I can tell.
I agree that LSV gets a lot of lip-service and that may sway things a bit, but in this case it is hard to deny that he deserves it.
The godbook episode was more of an accident, and shouldn't continue to stain the players involved. The penalties were handed out, served and lifted. This year's HoF voting should be interesting.
Something that hasn't been brought up much in past HoF discussions is total winnings (because Wizards didn't bother to update winnings totals after 2006 until a month or two ago). I think it's a good way of evaluating success, though it does have a sort of "overlap" with the general consideration that winning in the top 8 is weighted heavily, because of the way prize payouts are structured. Here are the career winnings totals for people with at least 4 PT top 8s:
Who actually wants to read Wizards spoilers anyway? They always either overhype a crappy card, make invalid comparisons to a card that rotated ages ago, or are involved in some Young Adult "fantasy" storytelling in the completely unengaging world they decide we're on this month. The only people who get their panties in a twist are those who lost money on the deal, namely Hasbro employees
Chris Pikula needs to be in more of these lists. He has good stats including 3 Pt top 8s. He was also voted into the Magic invitational more times than any other player int he world, and won one of them, creating Meddling Mage and makign a lasting imprint on the game. Finally, his impressive results were by a player who by all accounts was one of the most upstanding players ever on the PT during a time when cheating was rampant (Justice, Long, etc...) - if he was at his peak now I'd not be surprised if he had a similar record to some of the real heavy-hitters.
The rest of my ballot would be LSV, Huey, Stark, and I'm not 100% sure on the final spot. Justice and Saito are out for me for cheating (although I do think Mike Long should be in the HoF but banned for life, since his fame as the villain of the PT did enhance the game for many for a long time, he should be the one exception to the rule and with a lifetime ban so he can't benefit from it). The Japanese players are a dead heat IMHO, and Wafo-Tapa's use of spoilers is borderline for me.
Fully agree. My ballot was LSV, Huey, Stark, Pikula, and Mihara. I think Mihara's resume is the best of the all the Japanese players and his record is clean.
I give honorable mention to Eric Froehlich, Willy Edel, Martin Juza, Yasooka, and Parker --- these are people I think should be voted in within the next year or two. Their resumes are top notch, they play a lot still, they are good for the community and for the game.
of names I've seen others mention as worth voting - I'm not really terribly impressed with Scott Johns, Justin Gary, Herberholz, etc... a couple of them have lackluster reputations in the mtg community, others haven't really contributed much to the game in years and don't play the game much anymore. I'd rather a HoF award go to someone that is still very much interested in playing in 2-3 PT's and a couple GP's a year.
I do not feel inclined to vote for Justice, Long, Saito, due to multiple allegations / suspensions for cheating. I would consider Wafo Tapa and Matignon as contenders AFTER the honorable mentions were in, and provided that there was room to vote for them on future ballots with other newly eligible players that have clean records and are deserving.
I honestly think we'll only get two new Hall of Famers this year - LSV and Huey. The rest of the contenders are very even, and there is no real consensus as to who should get in (as far as I can tell). I'm not sure if any of them will get above 40%.
I know Kenny well, and he's a very good player, but he's not Hall of Fame material, sadly. One PT top 8 (though two 9th places, I believe), no wins, and not an incredible number of GP top 8s.
Whether or not someone has recent results or plans to go should have no impact on one's merit.
@Justin Gary: He only has 3 PT top 8s, but he has 9 top 16s. That's a pretty significant number. Only LSV has more on the current ballot if I remember correctly.
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Not only did Chris [Pikula] beat me in the finals, but Meddling Mage comes out turn two and could name Shadowmage Infiltrator, if it ever saw tournament play.
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Matignon had the godbook.
He shared it with Wafo-Tapa.
Wafo-Tapa, apparently, shared it with a guy he knew named Martial Moreau, who shared it with a guy HE knew named David Gauthier.
Gauthier then shared it with random people in an IRC chatroom.
Matignon was the ultimate source (had the info from Wizards), Gauthier was (as far as I can tell/remember) the person who spread it far and wide.
UW UW Gideon Control WU
UWR Loose Control RWU
GR Scapeshift RG
RU Storm UR
I'm pretty sure that's because people already know about those things, though perhaps not. The first was for what I would call an bizarre form of unsporting conduct that also falls under cheating. I don't think that anything should be a disqualifying factor for the HoF (especially when Bob Maher is in the HoF, what he was involved is far worse than any individual thing Saito did), but I do agree that needs another big achievement before getting in.
As for voting, I find the whole process irritating. Every year or two, some leading voices in the community pick a player or two and start a big campaign for them, which leads to people who are unsure being shamed into thinking their somehow doing something wrong. Every cherry picked statistic will be pulled out to support the candidacy of those people. Thus you have undeserving players like Steve OMS (I remember one argument for him being that he top 16ed lots of GPs... of course when many of those came in an era when GPs were trivial in size compared to modern GPs) get in over far more qualified people because he was/is friends with VIPs.
This year you have LSV being a class above the rest, followed by Mihara, who is closely followed by Jensen. After that, it really depends on what you value and whether or not you support the idea of a "big" HoF.
The rest of my ballot would be LSV, Huey, Stark, and I'm not 100% sure on the final spot. Justice and Saito are out for me for cheating (although I do think Mike Long should be in the HoF but banned for life, since his fame as the villain of the PT did enhance the game for many for a long time, he should be the one exception to the rule and with a lifetime ban so he can't benefit from it). The Japanese players are a dead heat IMHO, and Wafo-Tapa's use of spoilers is borderline for me.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
I agree that LSV gets a lot of lip-service and that may sway things a bit, but in this case it is hard to deny that he deserves it.
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Jensen is another player I would vote for. Quite a guy and has quite a bit of top 8's under his belt.
I never thought of Wafo-Tapa or Matignon as villains for the godbook fiasco. They didn't intentionally cheat like Bertoncheaty or some other people.
Unsure of who else I would vote for, I'll just leave it to the people who actually decide.
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Johns: $81,883 (82)
Saito: $219,417 (8)
LSV: $242,755 (11)
Edel: $95,075 (64)
Herberholz: $107,690 (50)
Ikeda: $142,642 (33)
Jensen: $122,170 (37)
Justice: $56,170 (133)
Lybaert: $89,250 (77)
Mihara: $150,400 (27)
Stark: $160,565 (23)
Wafo-Tapa: $160,750 (22)
From: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/alltime
It's worth noting that there was far less money available during the days of Justice and Johns, not that either of them are likely to get many votes.
So true haha!
Fully agree. My ballot was LSV, Huey, Stark, Pikula, and Mihara. I think Mihara's resume is the best of the all the Japanese players and his record is clean.
I give honorable mention to Eric Froehlich, Willy Edel, Martin Juza, Yasooka, and Parker --- these are people I think should be voted in within the next year or two. Their resumes are top notch, they play a lot still, they are good for the community and for the game.
of names I've seen others mention as worth voting - I'm not really terribly impressed with Scott Johns, Justin Gary, Herberholz, etc... a couple of them have lackluster reputations in the mtg community, others haven't really contributed much to the game in years and don't play the game much anymore. I'd rather a HoF award go to someone that is still very much interested in playing in 2-3 PT's and a couple GP's a year.
I do not feel inclined to vote for Justice, Long, Saito, due to multiple allegations / suspensions for cheating. I would consider Wafo Tapa and Matignon as contenders AFTER the honorable mentions were in, and provided that there was room to vote for them on future ballots with other newly eligible players that have clean records and are deserving.
my $.02
We'll see.
@Justin Gary: He only has 3 PT top 8s, but he has 9 top 16s. That's a pretty significant number. Only LSV has more on the current ballot if I remember correctly.
I wasn't meaning to respond to your post specifically regarding Justin Gary. It was simply a general obvervation about the player.
This guy.
I don't always post about Rafiq of the Many, but when I do, I cardlink to the original artwork, and not the supplementary product version.
"I trust myself to do my duty, even unto death. It's what comes after that I'm afraid of."
"Just fight without fear. Your soul is protected by the hand of Avacyn and will never submit to evil."
also wafo tapa cookbook leak not relevant, chapin in hof convicted drug dealer, unable to even travel to japan
If any of you want to know what arguably the best Magic player of all time (could also make a case for Kai Budde) thinks.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26472_Hall-Of-Fame.html
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!