What I don't understand is that both mechanics existed together to some degree (though not in keyworded form, thus "Troll Shroud"). Why can't we see them both together again? As red and blue have "looting" abilities that manifest in different ways, why not Hexproof and Shroud for Green and Blue respectively?
There is hexproof in every color (well... red and black need multicolor in order to reach it), but by and large it's a green ability. Green and Blue are both very close when it comes to cards with shroud, though blue has a few more. Bring back shroud, don't get rid of hexproof. Make hexproof primary in Green secondary in White, make shroud primary in Blue secondary in Green. (Yes, I'm saying let Green have both mechanics -- the color is far often more focused on creatures than the others, and both mechanics help to protect creatures from removal.)
If nothing else though, Shroud is a lot easier to balance correctly. Anything with Shroud is basically what you see is what you get, anything with Hexproof can potentially be broken if the wrong enchantments or equipment are printed at any point or time.
This is very true. From a development perspective, shroud is the better mechanic because it's easier to balance well. But hexproof is already out of the bag.
Geist of Saint Traft has been online for more than a year now, and has been a powerhouse since the very beginning. But it is now that it is also supported by strong auras like Rancor, Unflinching Courage or Ethereal Armor that it suddenly should have Shroud instead of Hexproof. Hexproof is an ability that supports aura cards, which have been lately underwhelming for being almost every time a risk for being 2 for 1-ed.
There are other options to get rid of a Geist. Or just ask for more good cheap sweepers, Pyroclasm, or Slagstorm. Hexproof is fine.
There's a reason we aren't seeing Bant Hexproof at the top of every single tournament list.
Powerful, but putting all your eggs in one basket does not make a consistent deck.
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I prefer shroud over hexproof because it makes casters think. Hexproof requires little thought.
Yes, because you need soooo much thinking and strategy to realize that you shouldn't equip your sword to your shrouded creature because you can't.
Now seriously, I get that many people prefer shroud over hexproof, but it's silly to say that one of them requires more strategy than other. The same way, the "hexproof is broken because you need global effects or edicts to surpass it" can also be said about shroud! It's a matter of preference, but none of them is innerently more strategical or broken than the other (hexproof is better in a vacuum, so cards with hexproof should cost more than cards with shroud). I prefer hexproof because it helps with the "making auras playable" issue, but I wouldn't cry if it was dropped in favor of shroud.
Both mechanics have their place, in gameplay and theme. With that said, I'd like to see more cards with shroud. Not necessarily replacing hexproof, just existing alongside it.
This....
I prefer shroud over Hexproof because it makes you think about the creature more....
But if there is a design reason to have one over the other (or either of them at all) then i could live with it....
Yes, because you need soooo much thinking and strategy to realize that you shouldn't equip your sword to your shrouded creature because you can't.
IMO, that seems like a bit of an oversimplification of why others argue shroud requires if not strategy, more care than bringing out a big baddy with shroud, or giving one with shroud.
I play mostly modern, and this is more a Geist of St. Traft problem, but it's really frustrating how it can randomly just hose entire matchups.
I don't really have a huge problem with hexproof itself (although, I really don't like it). My main issue is that it promotes non-interactivity and just auto-winning without thinking by having the right creature when your opponent can't draw his wrath, or isn't playing wrath effects. This wouldn't be such a big problem if it weren't printed on a 6/2 creature that only costs 3 mana, but alas, Wizards apparently thinks that's somehow a fair and balanced creature.
It's just another in a long line of creatures that wizards has recently printed that just wrecks control decks.
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Shroud and Hexproof are not the priblem imo. The problem is the power level of cards with hexproof or shroud. Geist, thrun, and sigarda are all problematic and difficult to remove due to hexproof and would all be overly powerful without such an ability.
Wizards needs to chill with the powercreep which is the real problem imo
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Personally I like Hexproof. I don't think it makes games degenerate, nor do I think it makes games or deck building have less interesting choices. I suppose a lot of this discussion comes down to personal preference. It's clear that the majority prefer Shroud, but that doesn't mean Hexproof is somehow not a viable mechanic. I hate the classification of "better" in these discussions too. Better for you may not mean better for me. The cool thing about Magic is that there's something for everyone. Build your deck however you like it!
As for power creep, while sure, I see Geist in some tops decks, it's certainly not the only -- or even the most -- powerful creature out there. Thragtusk, Snapcaster, Voice of Resurgence, and so on. My point is simply that because a couple creatures are really strong in a format, that doesn't automatically make the mechanic on those creatures too powerful or uninteresting.
As for flavor, there are times when I've been destroyed by a voltron Invisible Stalker. It's kind of cool to see. It doesn't mean I have no interesting choices to make though. I could choose to side in cards like Paraselene, Back to Nature, Serenity, etc. Creature removal may generally be the best answer, but it isn't always the only answer. If anything, I feel like Hexproof provides opportunity for even more choices than Shroud. They're just a different kind of choice.
All that said, I'm happy to have both mechanics in the game.
Hexproof allows for more options while Shroud limits them
The problem isn't the mechanic it's what it gets put on
The fact that the poll indicates an considerable majority of users perfer Shroud tells me they don't understand game design, they just don't like losing to a creature with a hexproof
Yeah Geist of St-Traft was OP and we know that R&D feels they need to be much more careful with which creatures end up with hexproof going forward
Lessons learned people
Shroud sucks while hexproof is much more interactive
I think it would be nice to reduce the amount of creature based mechanics and have more decent spells, and creature free decks. The game is a lot more interesting dealing with the stack and layering effects. Yet, most games are won by beating each others faces with creatures.
Hexproof allows for more options while Shroud limits them
Shroud sucks while hexproof is much more interactive
Not exactly right. While Hexproof is more interactive in a vacuum, due to the fact that one player is capable of interacting with the creature via targeted effects versus no players being able to interact, Magic cards rarely exist in a vacuum; they're used with other cards. And the most common thing used with Hexproof beasties is some sort of attachment to make them evasive/resilient, make them much more difficult to interact with.
It also doesn't help that Hexproof is in Blue's oversized piece of the color pie, along with the best evasion-granting ability and countermagic to stop any silly spell-based reprisals like Wrath effects.
Basically, on it's own in a vacuum, Hexproof is more interactive, but when combined with other cards (which is how most cards/mechanics should be looked at) it has strong potential to create un-interactive, degenerate gamestates. It also means they have to worry about whether or not Equipment/Auras will play nice with Hexproof critters, an additional burden on development that wouldn't be there if Shroud, in all its "safer" glory, was in the game instead as the primary "Can't Touch This!" mechanic.
Yes hexproof can be equipped with enchants and artifacts that will make them very hard to deal with, but the enchants and artifacts are easily removed and if done at the right time during combat you can easily also remove the creature. Hexproof is something this is more powerful than shroud and needs to be careful in what creatures they put it on.
There is hexproof in every color (well... red and black need multicolor in order to reach it), but by and large it's a green ability. Green and Blue are both very close when it comes to cards with shroud, though blue has a few more. Bring back shroud, don't get rid of hexproof. Make hexproof primary in Green secondary in White, make shroud primary in Blue secondary in Green. (Yes, I'm saying let Green have both mechanics -- the color is far often more focused on creatures than the others, and both mechanics help to protect creatures from removal.)
This is very true. From a development perspective, shroud is the better mechanic because it's easier to balance well. But hexproof is already out of the bag.
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There's a reason we aren't seeing Bant Hexproof at the top of every single tournament list.
Powerful, but putting all your eggs in one basket does not make a consistent deck.
Yes, because you need soooo much thinking and strategy to realize that you shouldn't equip your sword to your shrouded creature because you can't.
Now seriously, I get that many people prefer shroud over hexproof, but it's silly to say that one of them requires more strategy than other. The same way, the "hexproof is broken because you need global effects or edicts to surpass it" can also be said about shroud! It's a matter of preference, but none of them is innerently more strategical or broken than the other (hexproof is better in a vacuum, so cards with hexproof should cost more than cards with shroud). I prefer hexproof because it helps with the "making auras playable" issue, but I wouldn't cry if it was dropped in favor of shroud.
This....
I prefer shroud over Hexproof because it makes you think about the creature more....
But if there is a design reason to have one over the other (or either of them at all) then i could live with it....
IMO, that seems like a bit of an oversimplification of why others argue shroud requires if not strategy, more care than bringing out a big baddy with shroud, or giving one with shroud.
and it makes sense, hexproof just sounds like hex-proof.
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I don't really have a huge problem with hexproof itself (although, I really don't like it). My main issue is that it promotes non-interactivity and just auto-winning without thinking by having the right creature when your opponent can't draw his wrath, or isn't playing wrath effects. This wouldn't be such a big problem if it weren't printed on a 6/2 creature that only costs 3 mana, but alas, Wizards apparently thinks that's somehow a fair and balanced creature.
It's just another in a long line of creatures that wizards has recently printed that just wrecks control decks.
Wizards needs to chill with the powercreep which is the real problem imo
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As for power creep, while sure, I see Geist in some tops decks, it's certainly not the only -- or even the most -- powerful creature out there. Thragtusk, Snapcaster, Voice of Resurgence, and so on. My point is simply that because a couple creatures are really strong in a format, that doesn't automatically make the mechanic on those creatures too powerful or uninteresting.
As for flavor, there are times when I've been destroyed by a voltron Invisible Stalker. It's kind of cool to see. It doesn't mean I have no interesting choices to make though. I could choose to side in cards like Paraselene, Back to Nature, Serenity, etc. Creature removal may generally be the best answer, but it isn't always the only answer. If anything, I feel like Hexproof provides opportunity for even more choices than Shroud. They're just a different kind of choice.
All that said, I'm happy to have both mechanics in the game.
The problem isn't the mechanic it's what it gets put on
The fact that the poll indicates an considerable majority of users perfer Shroud tells me they don't understand game design, they just don't like losing to a creature with a hexproof
Yeah Geist of St-Traft was OP and we know that R&D feels they need to be much more careful with which creatures end up with hexproof going forward
Lessons learned people
Shroud sucks while hexproof is much more interactive
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Not exactly right. While Hexproof is more interactive in a vacuum, due to the fact that one player is capable of interacting with the creature via targeted effects versus no players being able to interact, Magic cards rarely exist in a vacuum; they're used with other cards. And the most common thing used with Hexproof beasties is some sort of attachment to make them evasive/resilient, make them much more difficult to interact with.
It also doesn't help that Hexproof is in Blue's oversized piece of the color pie, along with the best evasion-granting ability and countermagic to stop any silly spell-based reprisals like Wrath effects.
Basically, on it's own in a vacuum, Hexproof is more interactive, but when combined with other cards (which is how most cards/mechanics should be looked at) it has strong potential to create un-interactive, degenerate gamestates. It also means they have to worry about whether or not Equipment/Auras will play nice with Hexproof critters, an additional burden on development that wouldn't be there if Shroud, in all its "safer" glory, was in the game instead as the primary "Can't Touch This!" mechanic.
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RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR