Ehh... so I've been reading a fair few threads and posts bashing speculators for hoarding cards, but I feel like those people are ignoring the real "problem" and scapegoating the wrong people.
Sure, there might be that one guy who's got a binder full of fetches just waiting for the day to unload them, but for every one of those guys there are probably ten thousand regular people holding onto their own playsets because they're doing their own sort of speculation.
If you ever browse the Trading Post, you'll find plenty of people asterisking their Misty Rainforests marking them "hard to get" or "real estate for real estate." You can find this behavior with other staples like Snapcaster, Confidant, Force of Will, etc, with "Eternal for Eternal" or "No Standard" or "Standard 10% premium." This behavior is also not solely exhibited online. Have you ever caught yourself or someone at a store saying something akin to... "well, Jace TMS is in pretty huge demand, so do you mind if you add something small to your set of Liliana?"
Ahem, well my point is, regular people are as guilty of hoarding their cards as much as speculators are. I have a friend who just has pages full of land and is willing to trade anything towards more land, simply because he knows that land will always be valuable. Sure you can fault the speculators, but they're not the meat of the problem. The community is. Can you fault the Magic community?
No, you can't. I'm sure you'd love to trade Voice of Resurgence evenly towards dual lands or eternal staples, but intelligent people won't let you do that (desperate and rich people will though). And from my experience, the Magic community is pretty darn intelligent. They are fully aware that Voice will be at most $20 by the time RTR rotates and that their duals will be ten times that.
I'm not a fan of speculators, but for the people who complain about them; unless they're hoarding like 10% of the print run, look around a little and consider your own behavior and the behavior of the people around you. Trust me, speculators aren't the reasons why the prices are high. It's the tendency for people to hold onto things that they know will hold value.
I find a lot of the complaining people do is based on jealousy. The haves vs the haves not.
People hate speculators because they have the means to do so, whether it is sources, money or intelligence. I am willing to bet if roles are reverse same thing would happen.
I find a lot of the complaining people do is based on jealousy. The haves vs the haves not.
People hate speculators because they have the means to do so, whether it is sources, money or intelligence. I am willing to bet if roles are reverse same thing would happen.
Although I am pretty sure you are right, that can happen with anything. It doesn't make it any better though.
I have nearly every Modern staple (other than what I am not interested in like Affinity) and many Legacy staples, but still feel upset when a card like Transmute Artifact goes up to $40 overnight. I would love to have been able to purchase this card a bit later when I'll probably need it later on for EDH. I just didn't get to purchasing it yet.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Just ignore the people who complain about people assigning value to their cards
Call out people who accuse places like SCG on market manipulation
People always look for a pattern: smart people find a pattern that makes sense while idiots will simply accuse an entity, wether it be a website or a company or even a lone individual, of hoarding/speculating/collecting because they simply cannot comprehend how different factors influence a host of different issues.
Although I am pretty sure you are right, that can happen with anything. It doesn't make it any better though.
I have nearly every Modern staple (other than what I am not interested in like Affinity) and many Legacy staples, but still feel upset when a card like Transmute Artifact goes up to $40 overnight. I would love to have been able to purchase this card a bit later when I'll probably need it later on for EDH. I just didn't get to purchasing it yet.
Card that sees no significant Eternal play, barely any play in Modern (a downhill format anyway) and little casual appeal as it is a Spike card in its entirety, and it somehow requires a "crystal ball" to predict a crash? Let me guess, you're investing in Thundermaw Hellkite and other Standard crap for a rainy day too.
Here's a real "bold" prediction for you: in two years a single Snapcaster or Deathrite Shaman will outvalue a play set of Voice or Thundermaw.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
Let me guess, you're investing in Thundermaw Hellkite and other Standard crap for a rainy day too.
Anybody that is as knowledgeable about eternal formats as you claim has to know there is a huge difference between an useful 5 drop and a useful 2 drop in playability. You should probably stop now, your ignorance is showing. Thundermaw has no place, Voice is another story.
I bet VoR will be $20 by the time Theros is out. It will be either $20 or $80, and I'm thinking it's not going to be $80.
I'm not going to argue about VoR anymore on here. That wasn't the main point of his post and the fact is nobody can predict the future that far in advance. I just wanted to point out it was a dumb statement to include in a otherwise well thought out post. If it was so simple to predict everybody would be selling their Voices right now to cash in on this crash you guys are expecting. There are reasons it won't crash like that anytime soon but that's beyond this thread and it will just derail it further, so I digress.
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I'm not going to argue about VoR anymore on here. That wasn't the main point of his post and the fact is nobody can predict the future that far in advance. I just wanted to point out it was a dumb statement to include in a otherwise well thought out post. If it was so simple to predict everybody would be selling their Voices right now to cash in on this crash you guys are expecting. There are reasons it won't crash like that anytime soon but that's beyond this thread and it will just derail it further, so I digress.
VoR is an "anti-control" type card that punishes people playing spells on your turn. There is a snowflake's chance in hell that running VoR over Thalia/Gaddock in the same 2-drop spot is what you want in a Legacy (or Modern) deck. The latter creatures shut down or slow down combo quite a bit and can save you, the former gives you a mess of creatures right before you die. Thalia and Gaddock are also relevant on your opponent's turn, while VoR is not.
It's a great creature, it's just significantly outclassed by actually useful ones.
There is a snowflake's chance in hell that running VoR over Thalia/Gaddock in the same 2-drop spot is what you want in a Legacy (or Modern) deck.
I was unaware that decks only use 1 creature in each spot. Also Thalia and Gaddock serve different purposes. Thalia hates combo, Gaddock hates on ramping, and Voice hates on counters. Voice is already run in multiples in Melira Pod in Modern. Anybody who has played it has loved it. Don't so easily dismiss it in Modern. I could care less about Legacy and could just as easily as the poster above me decry it as a dying format.
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I was unaware that decks only use 1 creature in each spot. Also Thalia and Gaddock serve different purposes. Thalia hates combo, Gaddock hates on ramping, and Voice hates on counters. Voice is already run in multiples in Melira Pod in Modern. Anybody who has played it has loved it. Don't so easily dismiss it in Modern. I could care less about Legacy and could just as easily as the poster above me decry it as a dying format.
Umm... Gaddock does hate on combo far more than ramping. Gaddock stops stuff like Tendrils of Agony, Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames, Goblin Charbelcher, or Empty the Warrens from being cast. What's it really stop against ramp? Most of the ramp spells that I see cost less than 4 and the stuff that you ramp into is usually giant creatures like Emrakul and he doesn't stop those does he?
Umm... Gaddock does hate on combo far more than ramping. Gaddock stops stuff like Tendrils of Agony, Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames, Goblin Charbelcher, or Empty the Warrens from being cast. What's it really stop against ramp? Most of the ramp spells that I see cost less than 4 and the stuff that you ramp into is usually giant creatures like Emrakul and he doesn't stop those does he?
The only two of those cards that I ever actually see played in Modern are Past in Flames and Empty the Warrens. The "ramp" cards I was specifically referring to are the cards you will just cast at a high cost, Banefire, Sphinx Revelation and the like. I obviously didn't mean creature ramp....
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I was unaware that decks only use 1 creature in each spot. Also Thalia and Gaddock serve different purposes. Thalia hates combo, Gaddock hates on ramping, and Voice hates on counters. Voice is already run in multiples in Melira Pod in Modern. Anybody who has played it has loved it. Don't so easily dismiss it in Modern. I could care less about Legacy and could just as easily as the poster above me decry it as a dying format.
A 2-of in a single deck archetype doesn't make it a $60 creature. It's not worth the slots in Hatebears. With Scavenging Ooze entering the Modern pool in a month, there's going to be significantly less room than there already is for a 2/2 bear that doesn't particularly do anything.
Think about what VoR actually does. No modern combos care about it on the board (while other 2 drops like Gaddock, Thalia will disrupt them), no aggro care about it since it's a 2/2 that leaves an X/X token that can only lead to bad combats for you, it does nothing against the graveyard like the upcoming Scavenging Ooze will.
The 2-drop slot in Modern is filled to the brim with amazing value creatures; VoR is a good card, it's just nowhere near as good as the other options.
I find a lot of the complaining people do is based on jealousy. The haves vs the haves not.
People hate speculators because they have the means to do so, whether it is sources, money or intelligence. I am willing to bet if roles are reverse same thing would happen.
Bet all you want. Some of us really resent the people that turn the game (what we feel is the main reason it is made) into ridiculous investments. I am all for genuine player demand driving up prices, as that is a reflection of some aspect of the game itself, but artificially creating a perceived demand by purchasing simply for speculation (not for play) only hurts access to the game.
That said I think that 90% of all the paranoia about hoarders and SCG driving up prices is completely absurd.
I'm not going to argue about VoR anymore on here. That wasn't the main point of his post and the fact is nobody can predict the future that far in advance. I just wanted to point out it was a dumb statement to include in a otherwise well thought out post. If it was so simple to predict everybody would be selling their Voices right now to cash in on this crash you guys are expecting. There are reasons it won't crash like that anytime soon but that's beyond this thread and it will just derail it further, so I digress.
While I appreciate the compliment, I figure I might as well address the derailment so that people will stop trying to defend or attack speculations on this thread.
The reason I picked Voice is that it's the current "hot" Standard mythic. Last year during AVR it was Bonfire, during RTR it was Thundermaw, and now Voice has taken his place during DGM. Voice could be the one to buck the trend; I'm not going to argue it any way or the other although I certainly have opinions (5 points if you can guess what those are) but please know that I picked it arbitrarily.
A little bit on topic. Since it seem that this thread is going downhill for now.
There's a big difference between the people simply holding onto their play-sets. Especially if you know - they're playing them! And the people who are buying out the stock in order to gain later on some financial advantage.
First - you can't really blame a person for wanting to play the game. You know, after all in it's essence MtG is a game. Despite what some people out there think.
Second - it's exactly those people hoarding on the cards, speculating on them or whatever you wanna call it that are directly responsible for raising prices up. If you're simply a player you usually trade around the secondary market value of a card (plus-minus a bit but I'll come to this topic later on). So what you charge somebody for your card has not any real effect on the secondary market itself.
I've heard of people buying Power from a garage sale for something like 10 bucks. Do you really think that this affected the price of Power cards in any way?
So when people are discussing stuff in a thread like "Complain about Legacy Prices & Availability Thread" it's only usual for them to be dissatisfied with the recent rises of card prices. I mean seriously - I was kinda happy the first time that I've heard that a card that I had already a set of did skyrocket. But I was only happy that I didn't have to invest this money right away. And not that the total worth of my collection did jump with I think it was something like 100-200$. Every next jump in card's prices makes me even more frustrated - especially in pointless such jumps like casual cards or card that didn't become any more good in the last year, maybe more. And here's way - I actually like to play the game. You know if I didn't do it, I couldn't care less if I had a binder full of Legacy and Vintage staples. I would only try to get rid of it and exchange it for something that makes me happy. Makes sense now, doesn't it.
And also - you can't blame players for keeping their cards. It's like saying "Hey you, yes I mean you with the sweet villa in the mountains. Why are you playing so hard to get - here are some stock investments that will lose at least half their value over the next year. You should totally exchange your villa for that!".
I mean - can you really be amazed if someone wants to trade their valuable stuff for other stuff of the same value? How ofter would you really want to exchange your Mercedes S 500 AMG for an S 320 CDI and some other stuff. Or exchange an GLK 350 CDI for any of those two. It's only natural for people to cherish their stuff and not to want to exchange it just for anything. Now when you're trading two jeeps one for another - like for say the Mercedes that I mentioned earlier for an BWM, VW, Dodge, Lexus, Toyota, Infiniti, Nissan and so on. Now we can really talk about a more fair exchange.
At to be honest - at first when the game started nobody did care that much about card prices. Everybody traded more for how powerful and playable a certain card was. Even I gladly did some trades that weren't in my interest in pure monetary value. Instead of actually looking that much of the secondary market values. But I did get cards that later on became much more valuable like the Wishes (I simply love the idea), Sensei's Divining Top, Crucible of Worlds and other cool cards that did seem like that have a lot of potential but were left without a place to be. It's only been in the recent years - maybe when they introduced mythics into the game that the game become so economically focused. I may be wrong ot this subject since that's simply what I've mostly heard and read on the net - I wasn't playing for a few years since I had more important things to do in my life. And this is now even to an extend where some people trade cards to exactly fit their value to the last penny. Well - cherishing your stuff is one thing, but this... I can only describe this as grain refining.
There's also another topic that I would like to address while I'm at it. Please don't confuse cunningness with intelligence. You can be cunning without actually being intelligence - even some of the most known fairy tales illustrate this. And buying pieces of cardboard without actually having real control over them isn't exactly the smartest thing. WotC may give in to the pressure at some point and mass reprint everything so that most cards lose a decent part of their value. And falling into that situation isn't very smart. Now I'm not saying that all hoarders/speculators - call them whatever you like aren't smart. But generally this isn't always the brightest choice.
And yes - I can fault the Magic community. Why not - if they are dump enough to waste a household or a car worth for pieces of cardboard, it's their loss. And I can also fault WotC for creating such an easy abusable system. Seriously everyone with a little money in their pocket can abuse it. It doesn't take a PhD to do so. It simply is that some of us out there care actually for the game more, than for some profit that we'll most like make in a year or so. I don't see why if there's a problem with something that you shouldn't be able to criticize it.
Thank you for this post. I think you said a lot of things that I wanted to say more concisely and in more detail. From what I've gathered, you agreed that the problem lies within the playerbase and not with speculators; however, the problem shouldn't exist in the first place. The way Magic has been growing has been forcing it to become more focused on economical aspects of the game rather than playing it. The fact that pretty much every player is holding onto their staples is evidence of it- and you can't really blame them because they want to play the game and not worry about being unable to get their cards back later.
I also agree with your point on cunning vs. intelligence. You're right, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that good lands hold value and "hot" standard mythics don't. In my mind, I'd love it if the game were more about just playing instead of this crazy hoarder economy. However, I won't deny that I occasionally enjoy watching my cards soar in leaps and bounds, just as you have.
I was wrong with saying that we can't "fault" the community. I should have said we can't change it. Magic is what Magic is, and it's only going to get worse from here.
********
The sole purpose of my post was to hopefully convince some "speculator-bashers" that there are no evil villains hiding in the background holding the strings of the Magic economy (unless you're talking about Wizards :)). It's like blaming the 1% for your problems. Can't find a cheap apartment in New York? It must be the 1% hoarding all the housing and driving prices up! There's no way it could be that New York is an expensive city and housing is in high demand from everyone...
Just take a look at the market forces surrounding you and you'll get a better picture of why the economy is the way it is- for both the real world and Magic.
I find a lot of the complaining people do is based on jealousy. The haves vs the haves not..
And I find a number [if not most of the ones *I'VE read* who mak thi statement, default to this argument/explanation haven't - in my opinion - backed it up with anything other than repeating themselves, or really taken the time to read, or understand what is actually being said - while those arguing about the RL, people who DO hoard cards, etc making arguments that you may not agree with [in many instances neither do I FWIW], but are arguments nonetheless.
By the title of this thread I thought the OP was looking for regular everyday people who play Magic to gather together against the socially awkward neckbeard gamer cliche who makes up 95% of the game, so we could rally against them. I was ready to lead the charge.
I find a lot of the complaining people do is based on jealousy. The haves vs the haves not.
People hate speculators because they have the means to do so, whether it is sources, money or intelligence. I am willing to bet if roles are reverse same thing would happen.
truth.
Its the same everywhere I trade, local stores, GPs, MOTL, Youtube... everyone wants value....
Sure, there might be that one guy who's got a binder full of fetches just waiting for the day to unload them, but for every one of those guys there are probably ten thousand regular people holding onto their own playsets because they're doing their own sort of speculation.
If you ever browse the Trading Post, you'll find plenty of people asterisking their Misty Rainforests marking them "hard to get" or "real estate for real estate." You can find this behavior with other staples like Snapcaster, Confidant, Force of Will, etc, with "Eternal for Eternal" or "No Standard" or "Standard 10% premium." This behavior is also not solely exhibited online. Have you ever caught yourself or someone at a store saying something akin to... "well, Jace TMS is in pretty huge demand, so do you mind if you add something small to your set of Liliana?"
Ahem, well my point is, regular people are as guilty of hoarding their cards as much as speculators are. I have a friend who just has pages full of land and is willing to trade anything towards more land, simply because he knows that land will always be valuable. Sure you can fault the speculators, but they're not the meat of the problem. The community is. Can you fault the Magic community?
No, you can't. I'm sure you'd love to trade Voice of Resurgence evenly towards dual lands or eternal staples, but intelligent people won't let you do that (desperate and rich people will though). And from my experience, the Magic community is pretty darn intelligent. They are fully aware that Voice will be at most $20 by the time RTR rotates and that their duals will be ten times that.
I'm not a fan of speculators, but for the people who complain about them; unless they're hoarding like 10% of the print run, look around a little and consider your own behavior and the behavior of the people around you. Trust me, speculators aren't the reasons why the prices are high. It's the tendency for people to hold onto things that they know will hold value.
People hate speculators because they have the means to do so, whether it is sources, money or intelligence. I am willing to bet if roles are reverse same thing would happen.
Although I am pretty sure you are right, that can happen with anything. It doesn't make it any better though.
I have nearly every Modern staple (other than what I am not interested in like Affinity) and many Legacy staples, but still feel upset when a card like Transmute Artifact goes up to $40 overnight. I would love to have been able to purchase this card a bit later when I'll probably need it later on for EDH. I just didn't get to purchasing it yet.
BTW, have you seen the prices on cards from Legends like Angus Mackenzie, Adun Oakenshield, or Rasputin Dreamweaver?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Call out people who accuse places like SCG on market manipulation
People always look for a pattern: smart people find a pattern that makes sense while idiots will simply accuse an entity, wether it be a website or a company or even a lone individual, of hoarding/speculating/collecting because they simply cannot comprehend how different factors influence a host of different issues.
I got my Rasputin for $10. Good thing too.
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That is a pretty bold statement. What else does your crystal ball tell you. Inquiring minds would like to know.
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Oh sod off. That is literally the least significant part of his post.
I agree that was a very insignificant part of his post, so why even include it? It's a ridiculous statement.
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Here's a real "bold" prediction for you: in two years a single Snapcaster or Deathrite Shaman will outvalue a play set of Voice or Thundermaw.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Another idiotic statement. This thread seems to be attracting them like flies.
Anybody that is as knowledgeable about eternal formats as you claim has to know there is a huge difference between an useful 5 drop and a useful 2 drop in playability. You should probably stop now, your ignorance is showing. Thundermaw has no place, Voice is another story.
Warning issued for trolling. -Xen
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I'm not going to argue about VoR anymore on here. That wasn't the main point of his post and the fact is nobody can predict the future that far in advance. I just wanted to point out it was a dumb statement to include in a otherwise well thought out post. If it was so simple to predict everybody would be selling their Voices right now to cash in on this crash you guys are expecting. There are reasons it won't crash like that anytime soon but that's beyond this thread and it will just derail it further, so I digress.
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VoR is an "anti-control" type card that punishes people playing spells on your turn. There is a snowflake's chance in hell that running VoR over Thalia/Gaddock in the same 2-drop spot is what you want in a Legacy (or Modern) deck. The latter creatures shut down or slow down combo quite a bit and can save you, the former gives you a mess of creatures right before you die. Thalia and Gaddock are also relevant on your opponent's turn, while VoR is not.
It's a great creature, it's just significantly outclassed by actually useful ones.
I was unaware that decks only use 1 creature in each spot. Also Thalia and Gaddock serve different purposes. Thalia hates combo, Gaddock hates on ramping, and Voice hates on counters. Voice is already run in multiples in Melira Pod in Modern. Anybody who has played it has loved it. Don't so easily dismiss it in Modern. I could care less about Legacy and could just as easily as the poster above me decry it as a dying format.
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Umm... Gaddock does hate on combo far more than ramping. Gaddock stops stuff like Tendrils of Agony, Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames, Goblin Charbelcher, or Empty the Warrens from being cast. What's it really stop against ramp? Most of the ramp spells that I see cost less than 4 and the stuff that you ramp into is usually giant creatures like Emrakul and he doesn't stop those does he?
The only two of those cards that I ever actually see played in Modern are Past in Flames and Empty the Warrens. The "ramp" cards I was specifically referring to are the cards you will just cast at a high cost, Banefire, Sphinx Revelation and the like. I obviously didn't mean creature ramp....
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A 2-of in a single deck archetype doesn't make it a $60 creature. It's not worth the slots in Hatebears. With Scavenging Ooze entering the Modern pool in a month, there's going to be significantly less room than there already is for a 2/2 bear that doesn't particularly do anything.
Think about what VoR actually does. No modern combos care about it on the board (while other 2 drops like Gaddock, Thalia will disrupt them), no aggro care about it since it's a 2/2 that leaves an X/X token that can only lead to bad combats for you, it does nothing against the graveyard like the upcoming Scavenging Ooze will.
The 2-drop slot in Modern is filled to the brim with amazing value creatures; VoR is a good card, it's just nowhere near as good as the other options.
That said I think that 90% of all the paranoia about hoarders and SCG driving up prices is completely absurd.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
While I appreciate the compliment, I figure I might as well address the derailment so that people will stop trying to defend or attack speculations on this thread.
The reason I picked Voice is that it's the current "hot" Standard mythic. Last year during AVR it was Bonfire, during RTR it was Thundermaw, and now Voice has taken his place during DGM. Voice could be the one to buck the trend; I'm not going to argue it any way or the other although I certainly have opinions (5 points if you can guess what those are) but please know that I picked it arbitrarily.
Thank you for this post. I think you said a lot of things that I wanted to say more concisely and in more detail. From what I've gathered, you agreed that the problem lies within the playerbase and not with speculators; however, the problem shouldn't exist in the first place. The way Magic has been growing has been forcing it to become more focused on economical aspects of the game rather than playing it. The fact that pretty much every player is holding onto their staples is evidence of it- and you can't really blame them because they want to play the game and not worry about being unable to get their cards back later.
I also agree with your point on cunning vs. intelligence. You're right, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that good lands hold value and "hot" standard mythics don't. In my mind, I'd love it if the game were more about just playing instead of this crazy hoarder economy. However, I won't deny that I occasionally enjoy watching my cards soar in leaps and bounds, just as you have.
I was wrong with saying that we can't "fault" the community. I should have said we can't change it. Magic is what Magic is, and it's only going to get worse from here.
********
The sole purpose of my post was to hopefully convince some "speculator-bashers" that there are no evil villains hiding in the background holding the strings of the Magic economy (unless you're talking about Wizards :)). It's like blaming the 1% for your problems. Can't find a cheap apartment in New York? It must be the 1% hoarding all the housing and driving prices up! There's no way it could be that New York is an expensive city and housing is in high demand from everyone...
Just take a look at the market forces surrounding you and you'll get a better picture of why the economy is the way it is- for both the real world and Magic.
And I find a number [if not most of the ones *I'VE read* who mak thi statement, default to this argument/explanation haven't - in my opinion - backed it up with anything other than repeating themselves, or really taken the time to read, or understand what is actually being said - while those arguing about the RL, people who DO hoard cards, etc making arguments that you may not agree with [in many instances neither do I FWIW], but are arguments nonetheless.
Lets keep it intellectually honest.
truth.
Its the same everywhere I trade, local stores, GPs, MOTL, Youtube... everyone wants value....
Even little kids are trying to shark.
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