How To Trade: A Primer

  • #1
    Magic is an expensive game. Tomorrow, I'm going to an IQ here in Raleigh with a Standard R/G aggro deck that's one of the cheapest in the current Standard environment. Stripped of its foils, Star City wants over $300 for it, though! I'm an unemployed high school student with a $5/week allowance... how can I afford to play such a deck? The simple fact of the matter is that I don't buy cards anymore (besides the occasional draft and purchase of that set of Lightning Maulers for $1 that I need to finish the deck off); rather, I just parlay the cards I have into the cards I need. I know a lot of people are really skittish with their trading; even though it's a TCG (Trading Card Game) they're playing, they let their fear of being ripped off paralyze them. Getting ripped off isn't a constant of trading, however! You can save some scratch and get some cool cards by just following these common-sense tips.

    1) Know what your cards are worth.

    This is the easiest step in the entire guide. Pick a pricing system you like -- I prefer Star City Games, but to each his own -- and look up your binder in it. You can easily use the deckbuilder tool at ark42.com/mtg to look up a lot of cards at once using SCG pricing. You can also look cards up during a trade using your smartphone app; on that ark42 site is a great app that allows you to broker trades easily that's free on Android. iMTG is good for iPhones.

    2) Know who you're dealing with.

    When you see a chap with more than one binder that are filled with value stuff, or when you notice a binder with significantly more than four copies of a single money card, pay attention to the scene around him. While most people with a pile of stuff aren't, some people are "trade sharks", trying to make money in trades. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, don't be pressured into making a deal and don't be intimidated by foil foreign fetches. Remember that you can always say "no". Also, remember that you can always seek out these people when you have something you need to unload. If you have no use for some piece of pimp that nobody in particular wants, you might be able to parlay it into useful stuff. I traded a played unlimited Tundra for a set of each RTR Shockland about three weeks after that set came out; I might have traded down massively, but the market for an UNL Tundra is miniscule.

    3) Know when even values don't mean fair trades.

    Star City Games prices Jace, the Mind Sculptors at $150 and book promo Jace Belerens at $180. That said, I still wouldn't trade my Jace TMS and Marsh Flats ($150 + $30 = $180) for his book promo Jace as my pile is much more liquid than his pile. Factor liquidity into your trades. A good way to do this is to look at how eBay prices on completed listings compare to retail. Wolf Pack retails for $50, but eBay completed listings sell for $30ish all day long, a 40% discount. Compare this to the dropoff on Jace, TMS; on eBay, they net a good $125, or just a 17% discount.
    Consider trading up and trading down. Unlike in cash, where a hundred $1 notes make a single $100 note, a hundred $1 cards do not equal a single $100 card. I'd gleefully trade my playset of Blasphemous Acts (4x$3=$12) and a playset of Legion Loyalists (4x$3=$12, totaling $24) for his moderately played Sword of Fire and Ice ($24) because I'm trading up. It's not unfair to ask for a premium if you're breaking that Tarmogoyf you just opened into a pile of Shocklands.

    4) Be careful on condition.

    On bigger cards, condition matters. Let's look at SCG prices on Underground Seas:
    NM $200
    SP $175
    MP $150

    Quite a difference, isn't it? Apps will usually only deliver NM prices, so be sure to look up card values on condition. NM means that the cards have, at most, one or two very tiny corner nicks OR some scuffing on the cardface. SP means it has some playwear that is consistent with, say, playing with it in a draft a few times. Some light riffle creases will bring a card into SP easily. MP means "moderate play" and means that the card is unquestionably sleeve playable but is nowhere near playable outside of a sleeve. Cards which are not sleeve playable usually have very little value. Here's SCG's condition guide, which I agree with on all counts except valuing signed cards at SP; I put 'em at NM pricing. http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardconditions.php Just make sure not to care too badly on condition on cards worth relatively little; nobody likes a condition stickler.

    In conclusion, with just a little carefulness on your part, you can be a good trader and get all the cards you could ever need. Just pay attention and don't let yourself get taken advantage of.

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  • #2
    Always be willing to trade cards you are not using for cards you will use.

    Know your prices is a good start.

    Always let the other guy offer first. Sometimes, he'll give you a starting point that is beyond your wildest dreams.

    I keep myself going mostly through trades nowadays. I don't spend much money, although I do buy occasional boosters. But, its better to trade. More flexibility, and ultimately, if two people are happy with a deal, thats the best kind of deal.
  • #3
    You forgot an important part of this primer.

    1) Wear Goggles. Remember being a shark is awesome, but sharks need goggles to look cool otherwise they get water in their eyes when swimming. You're above ground but there may be a point where you can be a shark in water at events (look for a pool that's the best place to shark, also kids go there, and kids have Tarmogoyfs that they like trading for Craw Wurms!) Being a shark isn't easy, you have to know how to do other shark things. For example.

    2) Stalking your prey. Remember sometimes they don't want to trade with you, you're a shark! You don't take no for an answer! Real sharks don't see people swimming away from him and say 'Oh.. well I guess I'll go home now.. ;_;'. Be a Shark, if your opponent declines your trade, follow him. Just like how real sharks follow blood in the water, so too must you follow the scent of valuable cards. Always keep your distance, but don't look like you're keeping your distance. Your prey will sometimes go to the bathroom, its in places like that as a well prepared shark that you can shark them out of nowhere by locking them in a closet and stealing their Tarmogoyfs!

    3) Never hit the same prey twice. With a tire iron. Usually one swing is good enough.

    4) You're a shark, but you can also use predator tools from spiders. If you see a player that has lots of valuables, try and find out what kind of car he drives. Casually asking "Hey what's the make and model of your car as well as the license plate number?" is a great way of doing this! Everybody loves talking about their car and personal information about their car! Next break into their car and lie in wait in the trunk, it might be a while so bring snacks. Once you get to his house, that night sneak in and rob him blind! You just spidered him, however to fully spider him you should bring a can of spray-string and spray it along the house to show you're a spider otherwise he may not get what happened.

    5) Remember, being a Shark is all about being awesome. Wear aviators AT ALL TIMES. Nothing says "I'm too cool to be here so you're lucky to trade with me" like wearing aviator sunglasses inside. Always, always, always wear the Aviator sunglasses outside of the goggles otherwise it just looks silly.

    So utilizing these steps you too can be a successful shark!
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  • #4
    Quote from RCarlysle
    You forgot an important part of this primer.

    1) Wear Goggles. Remember being a shark is awesome, but sharks need goggles to look cool otherwise they get water in their eyes when swimming. You're above ground but there may be a point where you can be a shark in water at events (look for a pool that's the best place to shark, also kids go there, and kids have Tarmogoyfs that they like trading for Craw Wurms!) Being a shark isn't easy, you have to know how to do other shark things. For example.

    2) Stalking your prey. Remember sometimes they don't want to trade with you, you're a shark! You don't take no for an answer! Real sharks don't see people swimming away from him and say 'Oh.. well I guess I'll go home now.. ;_;'. Be a Shark, if your opponent declines your trade, follow him. Just like how real sharks follow blood in the water, so too must you follow the scent of valuable cards. Always keep your distance, but don't look like you're keeping your distance. Your prey will sometimes go to the bathroom, its in places like that as a well prepared shark that you can shark them out of nowhere by locking them in a closet and stealing their Tarmogoyfs!

    3) Never hit the same prey twice. With a tire iron. Usually one swing is good enough.

    4) You're a shark, but you can also use predator tools from spiders. If you see a player that has lots of valuables, try and find out what kind of car he drives. Casually asking "Hey what's the make and model of your car as well as the license plate number?" is a great way of doing this! Everybody loves talking about their car and personal information about their car! Next break into their car and lie in wait in the trunk, it might be a while so bring snacks. Once you get to his house, that night sneak in and rob him blind! You just spidered him, however to fully spider him you should bring a can of spray-string and spray it along the house to show you're a spider otherwise he may not get what happened.

    5) Remember, being a Shark is all about being awesome. Wear aviators AT ALL TIMES. Nothing says "I'm too cool to be here so you're lucky to trade with me" like wearing aviator sunglasses inside. Always, always, always wear the Aviator sunglasses outside of the goggles otherwise it just looks silly.

    So utilizing these steps you too can be a successful shark!


    Yuuuuuup.

    This is exactly why I stopped trading with people, period. I'll sell on eBay, buy from my LGS. Screw trading, since most people have this attitude.
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  • #5
    If a person starts muttering and getting insulting because you don't want to trade something you just cracked to him, you have a serious problem, and watch that person.

    This person is trying to bully you into trading. One in my LGS recently tried this with my 17 year old stepdaughter. My stepdaughter eventually got up, pointed her finger at him, and loudly said "I will not trade my brand new card that I want for my deck to you, even if you go wash your smelly body."

    This same individual was discovered at a booster draft "accidentally" dropping his draft pool into his open backpack, which just happened to have several mythics sitting loose from the same set. He had been suspected of doing the same thing at the prerelease the week before (when he amazingly had 3 Blind Obedience in his Boros guild pack!). He ended up being disqualified from that draft and banned from the store for two months.

    So, if someone is overbearing on a trade, they probably bear watching in just about any other kind of transaction. Dishonest people tend to be dishonest.
    Currently playing:

    Standard:
    WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW

    Modern:
    UR Twinning RU
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    Legacy:
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    EDH
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  • #6
    I would like to note that what you have provided is nowhere close to the quality or length of a typical primer. You simply have a few bullet points in normal text about rules that almost everyone who has ever traded knows about trading.
    http://mtgsalvation.com/1306-off-topic-commander-theory.html
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  • #7
    My stepdaughter eventually got up, pointed her finger at him, and loudly said "I will not trade my brand new card that I want for my deck to you, even if you go wash your smelly body."


    Yeah sometimes autism is like that, have you tried getting her help with counselling?
    This is way over the line, as was indicated by the 9 reports we got. 3-day suspension issued. -Galspanic
    Last edited by Galspanic: 6/8/2013 8:33:02 PM
    Check my Facebook for my next show

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  • #9
    I just wear a Sharks jersey, a subtle way for people to figure out what's going on
    Rules Advisor

    Quote from koloblicin

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  • #10
    Quote from RCarlysle
    Yeah sometimes autism is like that, have you tried getting her help with counselling?


    seriously... RCarlysle. That's low. it really is.

    I've been a trade shark until recently. Many of my friends are sharks as well (they are legacy brats). Sharking for a few dollars is almost NEVER worth it. Ethics aside, you can pick up overtime or another part time job and make more money doing that in the same time than sharking. Its called opportunity cost.
  • #11
    Yeah, it is a nice start to a "basics: How to Trade" primer, but there is a LOT to cover when it comes to trading, and one needs to know a lot to trade successfully.

    For instance, your SP Tundra may not have a huge market, but its as valuable as having water in the Desert...and you traded your water for pretzels...which is fine, you had no obvious use for the Tundra, and traded for cards you had a use for.

    Another thing is, a lot of people don't value their commons/uncommons that see use in older formats, EDH and casual. All those Ponder, Oblivion Ring and Zendikar Vampires you've got lying in a box somewhere from all those drafts can have value. I recently pulled a lot of mine out of my boxes, and its one of those things that more people than you would think will trade for them, especially because people really don't want to buy Ponder at $1 a piece, but will more than likely trade you a $4 card for a playset.

    Standard
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  • #12
    Quote from Psychomagus
    I would like to note that what you have provided is nowhere close to the quality or length of a typical primer. You simply have a few bullet points in normal text about rules that almost everyone who has ever traded knows about trading.


    While I agree that the primer isn't exactly what you'd find in a Standard forum, I'd say that these rules are not obvious at all. Perhaps you were blessed to be a savvy trader from the moment you were born, but it took me a while to figure this stuff out and I know plenty of people who still don't understand how to trade properly on a basic level and end up getting jipped all the time.
  • #13
    Quote from Encendi
    While I agree that the primer isn't exactly what you'd find in a Standard forum, I'd say that these rules are not obvious at all. Perhaps you were blessed to be a savvy trader from the moment you were born, but it took me a while to figure this stuff out and I know plenty of people who still don't understand how to trade properly on a basic level and end up getting jipped all the time.


    It took you a while to figure out what your cards are worth? Man, back in the day, we even had Inquest that so many ppl carried around to figure card prices lol.
    http://mtgsalvation.com/1306-off-topic-commander-theory.html
    New to Commander? Read the Above article.
  • #14
    Quote from AdamM

    For instance, your SP Tundra may not have a huge market, but its as valuable as having water in the Desert...and you traded your water for pretzels...which is fine, you had no obvious use for the Tundra, and traded for cards you had a use for.


    It was Unlimited. The Legacy players didn't want to give me the $175 market value when they could get an NM Rev Tundra for $125, and it wasn't wanted by the pimpers because white borders aren't pimp. I'd had that bleeding Tundra for months at a game store full of eternal players, and nobody expressed any interest in it at all.

    However, this is great advice. I know too many Standard players who hold on to their Eternal singles even though they have no use for them, and refuse to trade them for Standard stuff because "I don't trade Eternal for Standard". Always consider what you will actually use when you trade.
    Quote from AdamM

    Another thing is, a lot of people don't value their commons/uncommons that see use in older formats, EDH and casual. All those Ponder, Oblivion Ring and Zendikar Vampires you've got lying in a box somewhere from all those drafts can have value. I recently pulled a lot of mine out of my boxes, and its one of those things that more people than you would think will trade for them, especially because people really don't want to buy Ponder at $1 a piece, but will more than likely trade you a $4 card for a playset.


    THIS. Dear gods I spent so much time and effort finding a set of Flinthoof Boars... I'd trade a shock for a set of them! Wound up having to buy em at $2 apiece .
    Quote from Psychomagus
    It took you a while to figure out what your cards are worth? Man, back in the day, we even had Inquest that so many ppl carried around to figure card prices lol.


    Believe it or not, I often watch sharks just upright tell people what their cards are worth (which isn't what their cards are worth) and people believing them. I abhor sharks, and after watching some poor kid get sharked out of his foil Deathrite the other day, I just wanted to give some bullet points to new players.

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    Quote from RCarlysle
    I remember getting kicked out of a LGS because I was Phyrexian and was trying to convert people to compleation with power tools.
  • #15
    I think its important to identify the type of trader you are, and then identify your weaknesses. If you are intent on getting absolute equity, be prepared to turn a lot of people off. People who need to get trades to line up exactly are tedious to deal with as they try to grind out the extra 20-30 cents in value, and probably loses them far more value than anything. Honestly, if you want to be a good trader who has no problem getting what you want, I live by a few guidelines.

    1) Listen, and know your audience. Have what people want, and always be trading for things you know people are looking for. Your reputation will get you value as a trader as much as sharking people could without the downsides. Be that person who can get what people need. Also, don't neglect having casual popular cards, and don't be afraid to pick them up in trades if you know you can unload them on EDH'ers especially.

    2) Don't pressure people, ever. If someone does not want to give up something, move on. There are always other people, and you cannot adequately overcome peoples' emotional investment in cards, and you will only create an unfavorable outcome by leaning on people too hard. I've had people tell me they won't trade something because their friend gave it to them, it was the first one they opened, it came from their first draft - there is always someone else who just does not care that much about printed cardboard.

    3) Be patient. You never know what type of player you are necessarily dealing with. Honestly, when people pore over my binder, I take the time to think about other things, or text, or reading random stuff on my phone. Some new players especially can be really gun shy about trading, afford them the time to take it all in. Other players like to tell you about some inane combo they think is super cool - just take it all in and go to your little happy place.

    4) Don't lie about prices. If you can make an educated approximation, do so, but outright lying in order to scum people over is just a bad practice to get into and will eventually bite you. And don't purposefully undervalue others cards and overvalue yours.

    5) Have an actual trade binder. When I got back into the game, I stored everything in a binder and I would frequently say "that isn't for trade", and I realized after a while I kept saying that over and over. Eventually I made a binder I kept at home with things I just wasn't ready to trade, and kept the binders separate. I found that it was a lot easier to trade when nothing was off limits, so now when I go trade, I mentally flag things I trade for as untradable and put them in the home binder if I have no intention of trading them, and periodically go through that binder and add new stock when keeping it has lost its utility (either something better is printed or I don't foresee ever playing that deck or type of deck again). This accomplished two things, one being it made it easier to pick up and keep eternal cards, and it helped develop a reputation that I was very easy to deal with. The distant third benefit is probably not intimidating new players who see dual lands, Goyfs and Jaces and thought I wasn't someone they could trade with. Being approachable matters in a lot of ways, and this helps convey that to players.

    6) Don't talk down cards. Want to know the best way to keep your binder full of garbage? Tell people how bad a card it is when they express any interest. This is a vast game with a wide disparity of player types, and different people really do play for different reasons. Some people will try to acquire "bad" cards with the goal of trying to make them playable, or just to set up that magical Christmasland scenario. If it's fun for them, why rain on their parade? It is also a good way to get some value out of cards that otherwise stores wouldn't even want to give you bulk pricing on.

    When I started playing the game I was a kid with no allowance yet always was able to get things I wanted. Anyone can be a good trader that isn't just sharking people if you just pay attention and exercise some semblance of people skills.
  • #16
    In addition to the point about commons and uncommons, there are a lot of people on market street who will give you a junk trade in response to them. Its sometimes worth it to ship of 1000 or so of them in order to get a half decent rare, which you can then either keep, or trade off again.
  • #17

    5) Have an actual trade binder. When I got back into the game, I stored everything in a binder and I would frequently say "that isn't for trade", and I realized after a while I kept saying that over and over. Eventually I made a binder I kept at home with things I just wasn't ready to trade, and kept the binders separate. I found that it was a lot easier to trade when nothing was off limits, so now when I go trade, I mentally flag things I trade for as untradable and put them in the home binder if I have no intention of trading them, and periodically go through that binder and add new stock when keeping it has lost its utility (either something better is printed or I don't foresee ever playing that deck or type of deck again). This accomplished two things, one being it made it easier to pick up and keep eternal cards, and it helped develop a reputation that I was very easy to deal with. The distant third benefit is probably not intimidating new players who see dual lands, Goyfs and Jaces and thought I wasn't someone they could trade with. Being approachable matters in a lot of ways, and this helps convey that to players.


    This is an excellent point. Nothing annoys people more than "Thats not for trade" I only have stuff I am willing to trade, the rest go in deck boxes.

    If you have something up there, like a dual land or something, and someone expresses interest in it, you can always say that you are too far apart on value, or something, but, don't just have cards in your (binder, trade box, whatever) that you are not interested in trading.

    Another neat trick a friend of mine showed is to have some sort of a chase rare in a sleeve and hardback lying on top of your collection. When people see it, they will be more eager to go through the rest of your collection.
  • #18
    Another neat trick a friend of mine showed is to have some sort of a chase rare in a sleeve and hardback lying on top of your collection. When people see it, they will be more eager to go through the rest of your collection.


    I don't find that is a problem, but a well organized collection can make it so people find your binder "shoppable". Merchandising does matter, being organized matters. Even if you just alphabetize by color, it can save you a lot of time and makes it easier for people to find things.

    I can make an argument that having 1 chase rare and a bunch of garbage won't necessarily help you get more trades, and sometimes can backfire. For example, say you have a Voice of Resurgence right up front, a lot of people might see that and think, "well I won't have anything they would want". It all comes back to knowing your audience, which I think the OP touched on indirectly with the Unlimited Tundra comment.
  • #19
    How to trade:

    Step 1: find out who has what you want
    Step 2: find out what they want
    Step 3: find out who has what they what.
    Step 4: find out what the people who have what the people who have what you want want
    Step 5: trade cards
    Step 6: repeat fluidly as often as possible.

    For instance: bill has the FoW I want, and bill wants thoughtseize. Jim has the thoughtseize that bill wants, and Jim wants Cavern of Souls. You need to get cavern of souls.
  • #20
    How to trade:

    Avoid sharks at all costs. You will have to wrangle and hem and haw just to get fair value for your cards. Usually it will be a waste of time, and occassionally if you give into the pressure, you will walk away dissatisfied.
  • #21
    Always carry "throw-ins" such as full art lands, foil basics, foil staple uncommmons/commons, star city tokens, etc. Sometimes the deal is just not quite even, but they are willing to take the deal if you throw something in that they find neat. Discovered this by accident when I took out some foil islands from my deck and put them in my trade binder because I had nowhere else to put them at the time.

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  • #22
    Quote from Psychomagus
    It took you a while to figure out what your cards are worth? Man, back in the day, we even had Inquest that so many ppl carried around to figure card prices lol.


    No, but it took me a while to understand the differences between pricing sources. SCG gives a completely different picture than TCG or eBay at times.

    Also, liquidity was a concept I was familiar with but never really applied to Magic trading for time; I had a phase where I was actively trading Modern staples into EDH stuff with no thought for the consequences. To make a long story short, I gave up on the EDH deck and tried actively to trade back into Constructed. It was crazy difficult. My experience probably parallels a new player trying to trade his Standard staples into Modern or Legacy. Standard stuff is highly liquid in the Standard market, but extremely hard to trade into eternal formats.

    Lastly, I had to come to terms with Sharks. I didn't believe they existed, but after being sharked two times, I became wary.

    So, here are a few questions for you. Are you aware that SCG has Scalding Tarn at $50 and that eBay sells them at $30? Not to mention that TCG lies in the middle at $38? Are you really sure you know what your cards are worth?
  • #23
    Most often if I say something in my binder isnt for trade its because someone is trying to offer me standard crap and wants all my legacy staples. Piss off, thats not for trade to you.
  • #24
    You don't need to avoid sharks you just need to know what your cards are worth. If you all hate sharks so much there is nothing more frustrating to them than letting them look through your binder find stuff they wont and have to deal with someone who knows something about value. You have to keep in mind too the fact that people don't want to trade you 30 cards for 1 card regardless of whether it's value perfect or not.

    The only people I refuse to trade with are people that given a close trade say $1-2 difference in value will say something like show me your binder so I can make up the difference with some junk. Utterly infuriating.
  • #25
    Don't forget what I call the 5% rule.

    If you don't desperately want the cards on either side of the trade, there's no point doing the deal unless in your reasoned opinion you are getting at least 105% of the value of the cards you are trading away.

    If you want the cards you are getting more than the ones you are trading away, however, you should be happy with getting 95% of 'fair value' (whatever that means to you). Don't take under 95% unless you are desperate or it's a low value trade.

    It's quite possible for both parties to feel they are getting 105-110% of fair value in the same trade. (Example: I redeem 4x RTR sets from MTGO, and value them at USD580 because that's a bit over what they cost me. I trade them to someone for 4 Tarmogoyf (USD95 each to me) and 4 Dark Confidant (USD50 to me) and a Vendillion Clique (USD45) for a total of USD625.

    However the person I traded with might value those modern staples the same as I do, but value the RTR sets at USD800 total.

    From my perspective I've gotten 106-107% of fair value. From theirs, they've gotten over 125% and they probably would have been happy even if I asked for a second Clique.
    Last edited by sirgog: 6/10/2013 2:04:08 AM
    In mourning for the blue decks of old.

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  • #26
    Quote from iTRV
    Most often if I say something in my binder isnt for trade its because someone is trying to offer me standard crap and wants all my legacy staples. Piss off, thats not for trade to you.


    And honesty never even occurred to you? Interesting.
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