I think it is one of the best reasons. Did you play during Zendikar? Games and matches went long due to the extra shuffling required. It made games boring. If even one player was using a heavy fetch/landfall deck, tournament time was extended for everyone. I played Boros back then, and I've never been so glad to see a deck rotate.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm more than willing to spend a couple of extra minutes to improve the quality of the game and have consistent mana.
Honestly, I rarely go to time in a game of modern or legacy, regardless of how many fetch lands my opponent or I am playing. The few times I have, it's the result of what's actually going on in the game, not because I took a couple of extra minutes to use fetch land.
There's very few shuffle effects these days in standard meta as well. Few people even play evolving wilds any more. I don't think adding fetch land would make shuffling a problem.
The biggest problem with fetch in standard right now would be, as I've said and a million other people have said as well, with shocks, it would just be too crazy.
The card-shuffling haters [in R&D] dislike printing any card that shuffles. If we print them they prefer that they are at higher rarities and only shuffle once.
It helps that [cards like Sakura-Tribe Elder and Rampant Growth] only have one shuffle, but yes the move to cut back on shuffling does impact those types of cards.
We have publicly stated that we are not huge fans of cards that make you shuffle your library needlessly, and fetch lands skirt that line. As you can see from cards like Seaside Citadel, Dragonskull Summit, Fetid Heath, and Gilt-Leaf Palace, we are quite capable of making functional multilands that do not require shuffling.
...
We were all nervous about the needless shuffling, but in the end the combination of the synergy between landfall and the fetch lands and the constant requests for enemy fetch lands made it clear that this was the time to print them. The shuffling would be a cost, but we wanted to print them eventually, and this seemed like the perfect time to do it.
I'm not saying they will NEVER reprint fetch lands. I'm saying they aren't going to throw them randomly into just any Core set or expansion. They will wait for a mechanic like Landfall that will take advantage of fetch lands. After all:
Quote from Mark Rosewater »
Magic is a game that breaks its own rules. Also, just because we don’t like something in large numbers doesn’t always mean we never want to do it.
Isn't it grand how they claim that shuffling needs to be reduced, and then reprint Knight of the Reliquary in MM? Anything for the greater glory of GW, eh?
It is not even all that good in Modern thanks to DRS, and will get worse with M14.
I recall the article that Tormod is talking about- it was on the mothership but I can't be sure it was written by a WotC staff person, and I agree completely. Then again Magic is a living game and what may have made sense then could change in the future.
I read those quotes some time ago. I haven't forgotten them, but thank you for re-posting, they do have some valid points that I didn't remember.
Tom's quote specifically on the fetch land really irks me, even still after reading it nearly a year ago. In my honest opinion, and after playing with fetch land since the caw-blade era, I do not believe fetch land causes excessive, needless shuffling as he claims. Also, when he claims that they are perfectly capable of making decent mana fixing, I hope he has enough experience in the game to understand that the cards he mentioned are ****ing terrible when compared to fetch land. The ability to literally go get the land you need is so incredibly important to the game in so many ways. I don't care how long it takes you to shuffle, when you're playing an aggro deck with landfall abilities, it's still an aggro deck, and the game is still probably going to be relatively short. The only other deck that may have caused some concern with using many fetch land and shuffling excessively was valakut or RUG ramp (with lotus cobra), which of course, valakut could kill you consistently by turn 5 without being interrupted.
This is really what happens when people play with fetchland. Even when you're trying to get a landfall trigger to attack with your plated geopede or whatever.
Usually when I fetch I tell my opponent what I'm looking for, and sometimes what I'm playing after the fetch. for example
Play turn 1 polluted delta, say "fetch for U. Sea", if it resolves, say "play deathrite" while fetching, and put it into play.
That way you do the fetching/shuffling while the opponent is already playing his turn.
I always try to shuffle when my opponent is doing something.
I think the perspective of standard players influences this aspect of the game too highly. I think when R&D, the players, and other people who played during the early zendikar block observed how fetch land was affecting games, it took noticeably longer to play a game of standard due to more shuffling than usual. You also have to remember ponder was in the format at the time. In standard, a typical turn is almost literally: "land, play some things, attack you maybe, maybe play something Main 2, your turn.", all under 30 to 45 seconds. Suddenly, you add a 30 to 45 second pause after the "land", and you're just so used to playing at a certain pace, this pause feels glacially slow. I experience this myself. When I play legacy and modern, I'm used to having to wait a half a minute for someone to sufficiently shuffle, or make a play or something like that. When I play standard, the flow of things is a lot quicker, and so it's a bit more irritating when someone makes you wait around. I'm not saying this is definitely what caused people to feel that fetch land made games take too long, but I think there's a good possibility.
tl;dr - Is it that hard to wait half a minute? Yeah, it makes the game a bit longer, but unless you're playing stasis, I don't think it'll make you go to time and cause delays.
Even if it does cause some games to go longer, it's just another part of the game, and unless you're cracking 10 fetches a game, taking a whole entire minute at a time, the time lost due to shuffling after playing some fetches is insignificant, especially in the current standard environment where the only other shuffle effect we have these days is farseek...and nobody is complaining about how long it takes for someone to farseek.
I'm not saying they will NEVER reprint fetch lands. I'm saying they aren't going to throw them randomly into just any Core set or expansion. They will wait for a mechanic like Landfall that will take advantage of fetch lands.
I agree to a certain extent. I hope they wouldn't just throw them into a set all willy-nilly just to have them in the set, but as a modern enthusiast, I would prefer to have onslaught fetches reprinted sooner rather than later for modern-specific reasons (and very important mana fixing reasons). And I sincerely hope that they don't avoid reprinting because they're afraid of making standard games longer. If you're going to spend your day playing magic, don't complain you got somewhere else to be.
...unless you're playing eggs, then yeah, you'd better apologize for taking way too long.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm more than willing to spend a couple of extra minutes to improve the quality of the game and have consistent mana.
Honestly, I rarely go to time in a game of modern or legacy, regardless of how many fetch lands my opponent or I am playing. The few times I have, it's the result of what's actually going on in the game, not because I took a couple of extra minutes to use fetch land.
There's very few shuffle effects these days in standard meta as well. Few people even play evolving wilds any more. I don't think adding fetch land would make shuffling a problem.
The biggest problem with fetch in standard right now would be, as I've said and a million other people have said as well, with shocks, it would just be too crazy.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
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I'm not saying they will NEVER reprint fetch lands. I'm saying they aren't going to throw them randomly into just any Core set or expansion. They will wait for a mechanic like Landfall that will take advantage of fetch lands. After all:
(source)
I recall the article that Tormod is talking about- it was on the mothership but I can't be sure it was written by a WotC staff person, and I agree completely. Then again Magic is a living game and what may have made sense then could change in the future.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Tom's quote specifically on the fetch land really irks me, even still after reading it nearly a year ago. In my honest opinion, and after playing with fetch land since the caw-blade era, I do not believe fetch land causes excessive, needless shuffling as he claims. Also, when he claims that they are perfectly capable of making decent mana fixing, I hope he has enough experience in the game to understand that the cards he mentioned are ****ing terrible when compared to fetch land. The ability to literally go get the land you need is so incredibly important to the game in so many ways. I don't care how long it takes you to shuffle, when you're playing an aggro deck with landfall abilities, it's still an aggro deck, and the game is still probably going to be relatively short. The only other deck that may have caused some concern with using many fetch land and shuffling excessively was valakut or RUG ramp (with lotus cobra), which of course, valakut could kill you consistently by turn 5 without being interrupted.
This is really what happens when people play with fetchland. Even when you're trying to get a landfall trigger to attack with your plated geopede or whatever.
I think the perspective of standard players influences this aspect of the game too highly. I think when R&D, the players, and other people who played during the early zendikar block observed how fetch land was affecting games, it took noticeably longer to play a game of standard due to more shuffling than usual. You also have to remember ponder was in the format at the time. In standard, a typical turn is almost literally: "land, play some things, attack you maybe, maybe play something Main 2, your turn.", all under 30 to 45 seconds. Suddenly, you add a 30 to 45 second pause after the "land", and you're just so used to playing at a certain pace, this pause feels glacially slow. I experience this myself. When I play legacy and modern, I'm used to having to wait a half a minute for someone to sufficiently shuffle, or make a play or something like that. When I play standard, the flow of things is a lot quicker, and so it's a bit more irritating when someone makes you wait around. I'm not saying this is definitely what caused people to feel that fetch land made games take too long, but I think there's a good possibility.
tl;dr - Is it that hard to wait half a minute? Yeah, it makes the game a bit longer, but unless you're playing stasis, I don't think it'll make you go to time and cause delays.
Even if it does cause some games to go longer, it's just another part of the game, and unless you're cracking 10 fetches a game, taking a whole entire minute at a time, the time lost due to shuffling after playing some fetches is insignificant, especially in the current standard environment where the only other shuffle effect we have these days is farseek...and nobody is complaining about how long it takes for someone to farseek.
Just my 2 cents.
I agree to a certain extent. I hope they wouldn't just throw them into a set all willy-nilly just to have them in the set, but as a modern enthusiast, I would prefer to have onslaught fetches reprinted sooner rather than later for modern-specific reasons (and very important mana fixing reasons). And I sincerely hope that they don't avoid reprinting because they're afraid of making standard games longer. If you're going to spend your day playing magic, don't complain you got somewhere else to be.
...unless you're playing eggs, then yeah, you'd better apologize for taking way too long.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge