Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum, but I'm not sure if this goes in Magic General, Limited, or Speculation. A moderator is free to move this to whichever forum he or she feels appropriate.
Just about everyone else in my playgroup believes that if Thoughtseize were to be printed in Modern Masters as an uncommon, then many Limited games would devolve into "whoever has the most Thoughtseizes wins." Furthermore, they feel that Thoughtseize deserves to be a rare because it hits any nonland card for only 1 mana, even though targeted discard spells have generally been relegated to lower rarities.
I think they are overvaluing the power of Thoughtseize, and feel that it could get away with being an uncommon, especially in such a strong Limited environment.
So, my fellow MTGS members, what are your opinions regarding this issue?
Also, have any Magic R&D members talked about their thoughts regarding Thoughtseize's rarity in Lorwyn?
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Wouldn't break Limited.. It really should be in MM at rare. It's the best discard spell available, but nothing about it screams mythic, except the price tag. So of course it'll be mythic.
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Modern - RUG Delver RUG - Splinter Twin UR - Jund BRG
Legacy - RUG Delver RUG - Maverick GW - SI BG
Foreigning out SI, currently 33/75. The only thing better than a T1 kill is doing it with cards no one has ever heard of and/or can't read. If anyone has any of the usual pieces, PM me. I'm willing to buy/trade.
Thoughtseize is not a first-pick quality card if your only concern is winning the event. It is good enough to always play if you are in black.
That said I think it's more likely to show up in M14 than in MM anyway (baseless speculation there but it will sell the set and play a role in Standard).
The rarity argument isn't an argument. In any situation when your life is > 2, thoughtseize is by far the best discard spell. The two life does matter, certainly, but it matters less so than the advantage gained.
Is Modern Masters limited even going to be a thing? Every single shop in my area is already 100% sold out of product thanks to pre orders.
There are probably places that are going to use their allotment for drafting, considering MM is being marketed as a draftable set.
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Modern - RUG Delver RUG - Splinter Twin UR - Jund BRG
Legacy - RUG Delver RUG - Maverick GW - SI BG
Foreigning out SI, currently 33/75. The only thing better than a T1 kill is doing it with cards no one has ever heard of and/or can't read. If anyone has any of the usual pieces, PM me. I'm willing to buy/trade.
since its going to be sold in such short supply that it'll likely only be drafted by those where lucky and/or foolish enough to buy a box while they were 250 a pop and not the majority of the magic community... who gives a rat's ass.
Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum, but I'm not sure if this goes in Magic General, Limited, or Speculation. A moderator is free to move this to whichever forum he or she feels appropriate.
Just about everyone else in my playgroup believes that if Thoughtseize were to be printed in Modern Masters as an uncommon, then many Limited games would devolve into "whoever has the most Thoughtseizes wins." Furthermore, they feel that Thoughtseize deserves to be a rare because it hits any nonland card for only 1 mana, even though targeted discard spells have generally been relegated to lower rarities.
I think they are overvaluing the power of Thoughtseize, and feel that it could get away with being an uncommon, especially in such a strong Limited environment.
So, my fellow MTGS members, what are your opinions regarding this issue?
Also, have any Magic R&D members talked about their thoughts regarding Thoughtseize's rarity in Lorwyn?
They will not print a 60 dollar card as an uncommon. Rare, possibly. Uncommon? No.
No, Thoughtseize is far from broken in limited and would hardly be unfairly good at uncommon. We have seen far more powerful uncommons for limited printed in every set.
Is Modern Masters limited even going to be a thing? Every single shop in my area is already 100% sold out of product thanks to pre orders.
The LGS in my area wont sell the boxes and are only playing limited with them. They have gone so far as to work together for events so they can get max players for their events.
To the OP, having Thoughtseize as an uncommon, and the players knowing its an uncommon, would change how people draft. You are right who had the most probably would have the upper hand in matches.
I know that TS is more flexible, always hits and stuff but I wonder if IoK is not actually 'better' in Modern. Most of the important spells look cheap to me, at least not higher than 3. At least I run it as 'budget' version of TS and up to now it rarely missed something important.
It wouldn't wreck MM limited, but it might wreck the secondary market value of Thoughtseize, and I think WOTC cares infinitely more about the secondary market than they do about the MM limited format.
Discard is generally considered pretty bad in limited.
Thoughtsieze is considered the BEST discard spell (I'd argue Hymn to Tourach might be better, but not modern legal, so fine, thoughtsieze is the best MODERN LEGAL discard, I can get on board with that.) So maybe it will have *SOME* effect on MM limited. However, it won't be to the point where "whoever got thoughtseize won!"
All baseless speculation as the likelihood of having thoughtseize at uncommon is laughably small, if it shows up at all.
Hopefully WotC has more respect for players who buy their cards, than to do something like this. I would be pretty miffed about losing $150
I'd be fine with you losing $150.
Also it's an uncommon card in terms of what an uncommon can do at this point. However on the flip side the value of the card is rare. But the only reason is because it was a 10$ that dropped after it fell from rotation and most players liquidated them to SCG and the like. And when demand rose, well you can't have Jund or Legacy decks without Thoughtseize so the price went up on the card. The 'Value' as in what the card did and how it effects the game as a Turn 1 Discard Spell in exchange for a Shock didn't change. The demand changed.
So again. I'm fine with you losing $150 in theoretical dollars.
Meh, Thoughtseize was $30 a few months ago, so a reprint would just be bringing it back in like with what it should be at. $100/4 would be the best outcome I think, though I doubt it will happen. And I very highly doubted it would decrease in rarity if reprinted. But it wouldn't break the format, barely even change it probably, if it were uncommon.
As an aside, Hymn to Tourach is too strong at common (and probably uncommon), but isn't special enough to be rare, so they just ignore that it existed rather than shuffle it's rarity for a reprint.
If they want to stay away from complexity in the lower rarities and they state that paying life as a drawback is a complex concept for newer players, then thoughtseize should stay at rare.
This is likely not a set for newer players, or at least ones new enough to be scared off by concepts as dangerous as 'you lose two life'.
The only differences between this card and Distress are the extra mana and the fact that it doesn't cost two life. Those are *not* drastic enough to move a card from common to rare, in my humble opinion, but since they're the ones who printed Thoughtseize at rare, I would appear to be the mistaken one.
The fact that Distress was printed at common as recently as M12 indicates that it's not a NWO thing, either. (And to directly address the original question, I don't remember Distress being particuarly oppressive in M12 Limited.)
I love the people using thoughtseizes price as justification for its rarity it should have been printed in uncommon originally and reprinting it at rare is just caving to the secondary market over the established standard power level of uncommons vs rares.
Why is there a ridiculous, impossible question every day?
Welcome to the internet, you must be new here.
If Thoughtseize was an Uncommon card, it would have been printed as such in the first place.
Oh and yes, the format bombs were destined for Mythic Rarity since the announcement of MM (You can still see 'Goyf at Mythic Rare still sitting there on the announcement sheet, ya?)
The only thing that won't destroy Modern's sudden influx of players is if WotC realizes they need to print MM every year (or at least in a less limited distribution)
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1. It allows me to express multiple thoughts without a need to write an essay or make multiple posts. 2. I tend to have multiple thoughts at the same time. 3. Having the right first opinion is sometimes more glorious than having a grammatically correct second opinion. 4. It allows you as a reader to pick out the most erroneous point and counter-comment, allowing you the chance to express an opinion and look like a sensible person when I sound like a dummy.
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Just about everyone else in my playgroup believes that if Thoughtseize were to be printed in Modern Masters as an uncommon, then many Limited games would devolve into "whoever has the most Thoughtseizes wins." Furthermore, they feel that Thoughtseize deserves to be a rare because it hits any nonland card for only 1 mana, even though targeted discard spells have generally been relegated to lower rarities.
I think they are overvaluing the power of Thoughtseize, and feel that it could get away with being an uncommon, especially in such a strong Limited environment.
So, my fellow MTGS members, what are your opinions regarding this issue?
Also, have any Magic R&D members talked about their thoughts regarding Thoughtseize's rarity in Lorwyn?
Legacy - RUG Delver RUG - Maverick GW - SI BG
Foreigning out SI, currently 33/75. The only thing better than a T1 kill is doing it with cards no one has ever heard of and/or can't read. If anyone has any of the usual pieces, PM me. I'm willing to buy/trade.
That said I think it's more likely to show up in M14 than in MM anyway (baseless speculation there but it will sell the set and play a role in Standard).
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Weirdly, standard has been BAD since JTMS was banned, it hasn't been fun, nor healthy since.
There are probably places that are going to use their allotment for drafting, considering MM is being marketed as a draftable set.
Legacy - RUG Delver RUG - Maverick GW - SI BG
Foreigning out SI, currently 33/75. The only thing better than a T1 kill is doing it with cards no one has ever heard of and/or can't read. If anyone has any of the usual pieces, PM me. I'm willing to buy/trade.
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They will not print a 60 dollar card as an uncommon. Rare, possibly. Uncommon? No.
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The LGS in my area wont sell the boxes and are only playing limited with them. They have gone so far as to work together for events so they can get max players for their events.
To the OP, having Thoughtseize as an uncommon, and the players knowing its an uncommon, would change how people draft. You are right who had the most probably would have the upper hand in matches.
Hopefully WotC has more respect for players who buy their cards, than to do something like this. I would be pretty miffed about losing $150
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Thoughtsieze is considered the BEST discard spell (I'd argue Hymn to Tourach might be better, but not modern legal, so fine, thoughtsieze is the best MODERN LEGAL discard, I can get on board with that.) So maybe it will have *SOME* effect on MM limited. However, it won't be to the point where "whoever got thoughtseize won!"
All baseless speculation as the likelihood of having thoughtseize at uncommon is laughably small, if it shows up at all.
I'd be fine with you losing $150.
Also it's an uncommon card in terms of what an uncommon can do at this point. However on the flip side the value of the card is rare. But the only reason is because it was a 10$ that dropped after it fell from rotation and most players liquidated them to SCG and the like. And when demand rose, well you can't have Jund or Legacy decks without Thoughtseize so the price went up on the card. The 'Value' as in what the card did and how it effects the game as a Turn 1 Discard Spell in exchange for a Shock didn't change. The demand changed.
So again. I'm fine with you losing $150 in theoretical dollars.
It's a very strong role-player in constructed, and it's still good in limited, but it likely won't even be the best limited card in this set.
If you're looking for a stronger discard spell in limited, that would be blightning
As an aside, Hymn to Tourach is too strong at common (and probably uncommon), but isn't special enough to be rare, so they just ignore that it existed rather than shuffle it's rarity for a reprint.
This is likely not a set for newer players, or at least ones new enough to be scared off by concepts as dangerous as 'you lose two life'.
The only differences between this card and Distress are the extra mana and the fact that it doesn't cost two life. Those are *not* drastic enough to move a card from common to rare, in my humble opinion, but since they're the ones who printed Thoughtseize at rare, I would appear to be the mistaken one.
The fact that Distress was printed at common as recently as M12 indicates that it's not a NWO thing, either. (And to directly address the original question, I don't remember Distress being particuarly oppressive in M12 Limited.)
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Would never happen, for too many reasons. Power level not the least of which.
Bident Layers
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RG Devotion
UW Control
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Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
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BUG Control
Welcome to the internet, you must be new here.
If Thoughtseize was an Uncommon card, it would have been printed as such in the first place.
Oh and yes, the format bombs were destined for Mythic Rarity since the announcement of MM (You can still see 'Goyf at Mythic Rare still sitting there on the announcement sheet, ya?)
The only thing that won't destroy Modern's sudden influx of players is if WotC realizes they need to print MM every year (or at least in a less limited distribution)
1. It allows me to express multiple thoughts without a need to write an essay or make multiple posts.
2. I tend to have multiple thoughts at the same time.
3. Having the right first opinion is sometimes more glorious than having a grammatically correct second opinion.
4. It allows you as a reader to pick out the most erroneous point and counter-comment, allowing you the chance to express an opinion and look like a sensible person when I sound like a dummy.