@Binary - Having a healthy and playable format across all types is actually really beneficial to them because it means people are still interested and playing their game. Sure they do not make money like the secondary market does but they make money in other ways. And really, people usually do not just play one format and IMO if they abandon one format it shows me that Wizards kind of doesn't care about their product.
My point wasn't that there could be benefits to Wizards by offering better support for Eternal formats.
My point is that they've made it abundantly clear that they're not going to.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
Which we all know means next to nothing if they decide it would be in their benefit if they did. It wouldn't be the first time they did.
Given the number of opportunities they've had to change the reserved list, and given that every time they've done nothing but reaffirm the list as it stands... I think any expectation of them to change their minds now is more based on wishful thinking than on any kind of evidence. I just don't see it happening.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
All these lands would do unless they enjoyed multiple print runs was create another set of $30+ lands and people would be left with the same problem - they cannot afford a lot of expensive cards, and could likely also not afford the Force of Wills, Wastelands, and Tarmogoyfs that are also necessary legacy buy ins.
Eternal formats are not beneficial to WotC. Their tournaments and what not are there to hype standard and limited. It's why block constructed is a format, even though it's so incredibly bad. That product has already been sold, and it's time for WotC, a company with a bottom line, to move forward. That's how their game and their company exists - it moves forwards.
Do you own a car that is older than 2 years old or have you ever? If so, you should throw away the car and buy a new one. Not sell the car, if you do that, you are hurting the company's bottom line. Throw the old car away, buy a new one every 2 years. Cars should not come with warranties that last longer than 2 years either, why should a car company keep supporting a car that it no longer makes? And wrecks due to vehicle problems that don't come up until the cars have been driven a few years but are glaring factory problems that kill people? The car company should not be liable, after all, they no longer support that car and thus it's not their problem. That product's already been sold, it's time for Car Manufacture, a company with a bottom line, to move forward. That's how their industry and their company exists - it moves forwards.
Do you see the fallacy in that argument? If I bought a product, such as a vehicle, from a company who would not stand behind their products for more than 2 years, well, correction, I wouldn't buy from that company. Same thing with the reprint policy. As an owner of a good number of expensive cards, if there was no reprint list, while mildly bothered that a company was trying to control the secondary market on their products, I would be fine with them reprinting them. I don't feel like it's WOTC job to make cards less expensive on the secondary market. But since we have this policy, with the only loophole I saw now closed, to go back on their word would mean their word was worthless. They would not only be standing behind their product, but would lying directly to their consumers. There in lies the issue. I proposed a version of a dual land that, while close, should not anger people. I'm sure there are other version that would find a happy median. But to reprint the original duals would be a poor choice from a customer relations side.
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Odds of pulling a JtMS from a WWK pack: 1:80
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
Except in this case the car is 16 years old and the only "drivable" one on the market. Either buy this car or don't drive at all. The company can't make new cars because that would devalue the old cars. It's basic economics that it is the responsibility of the business to guarantee the inflated price of cars that were manufactured almost two decades ago. It's great this way! I can go buy up bunches of bananas because the company can't harvest anymore, else it will devalue the bananas I just bought. Who cares if people want bananas or the company misses a chance to make a profit? I want my bananas to be worth something, because I bought them as an investment!
Edit: In other news Dell, HP, and Lenovo promised to remove harmful PVCs and BFRs from their computers. They didn't... and no one cared. People still buy computers from them.
Personally I think that since WotC clearly can't get around this List, the next best thing is to print equivalents as close as possible to the original so we can move on from the old cards. Let the old investors cling to their precious cards they can't let anyone else have, and we can just forget about the List as we have our own version. Hell, bit by bit, WotC has startedalready! (there was a third one some time in the last year earlier, but I can't remember off-hand what it was)
If you've seen my posts on the Custom Card Contests and Games forum for the past few months, you'll notice I've been experimenting with just this: reservereprints that won't violate the List. I've already remade each one, and I'll post my entire list for critique at some point once I get some more personal review done.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
And no, you can't move on from the original duals. In order to do that you have to have something pretty darn close, otherwise people won't use them. Then you're back to square one.
Incidentally, the Reserved List doesn't apply to MTGO. Guess where Eternal will end up in a few years.
The only reason I want to get into Legacy (I play standard, and will continue to do so) is because of the fact that the cards are worth money and continue to go up.
Let's say they reprint the ten duals. This drastically decreases their price immediately.
In another ten years, they'll be expensive again, and people will ***** again.
People will always *****, no matter what they do, so if it's easier than doing nothing, then they'll do nothing.
Besides, the FTV series is a good way to get cards you wouldn't get otherwise. Be happy that there are reprinted cards at all.
You contradict yourself like 5 times within this single post.
There is a reason these cards didnt go into 4th edition. They are powerful. They have zero draw backs. Trust me, I sold all my dual lands for the amount it would cost me to buy one set of underground seas. At the time I made more than triple my money back. We use to be upset getting a Dual as a rare in a third or unlimited pack, and we were buying them at retail at the time.
I dont see WOTC needing a huge influx of cash, if they did World Wake would still be falling out of the printers and being sold. Stoneforge just made WW pack worth even more on the secondary market. So saying why doesnt WOTC print a collection that would bring in cash doesnt really work, when they have other options that would upset less people.
Remember these cards were taken away for one reason, balance. I dont really think anyone at WOTC cant sleep at night cause of cards from 1990 and what their secondary market value is.
Except in this case the car is 16 years old and the only "drivable" one on the market. Either buy this car or don't drive at all. The company can't make new cars because that would devalue the old cars. It's basic economics that it is the responsibility of the business to guarantee the inflated price of cars that were manufactured almost two decades ago. It's great this way! I can go buy up bunches of bananas because the company can't harvest anymore, else it will devalue the bananas I just bought. Who cares if people want bananas or the company misses a chance to make a profit? I want my bananas to be worth something, because I bought them as an investment!
Edit: In other news Dell, HP, and Lenovo promised to remove harmful PVCs and BFRs from their computers. They didn't... and no one cared. People still buy computers from them.
Incorrect. The car is an antique. Antique cars cost more. If you want to drive an antique car and join an antique car club, the car usually costs a little more (eternal formats). You have original model T's (vintage), 1960's sports cars (legacy), 2008 model cars (extended) and 2010 model (standard). Of course, there are people who seem to buy an Escalade with all the accessories every couple years and then complain that they can't afford a 1960's sports car. That's the people who play stuff like mythic last season and then complain that legacy is too expensive. There are less than a handful of deck more expensive than mythic was last year, yet the problem is the cost of legacy, not the cards that will plummet in a few months yet people keep buying year after year? I'd be willing to be my truck that if a person had bought as many revised duals lands (nm/ex+) condition as they could with the cost of the deck "Mythic" that they would have actually made money in the transaction (obviously this assumes the person pays fair value for the cards and nobody has the "lol, I win, I coulda bought a Plateau for $1100! attitude). Welcome to decisions people, you can spend $1000 a year to keep up with standard or $1000 once to have a legacy deck. One of those will consistently hold value and the other won't. Or, you know, make the one time investment into legacy and then keep playing standard starting the next season, so you can do both.
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Odds of pulling a JtMS from a WWK pack: 1:80
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
There is a reason these cards didnt go into 4th edition. They are powerful. They have zero draw backs. Trust me, I sold all my dual lands for the amount it would cost me to buy one set of underground seas. At the time I made more than triple my money back. We use to be upset getting a Dual as a rare in a third or unlimited pack, and we were buying them at retail at the time.
I dont see WOTC needing a huge influx of cash, if they did World Wake would still be falling out of the printers and being sold. Stoneforge just made WW pack worth even more on the secondary market. So saying why doesnt WOTC print a collection that would bring in cash doesnt really work, when they have other options that would upset less people.
Remember these cards were taken away for one reason, balance. I dont really think anyone at WOTC cant sleep at night cause of cards from 1990 and what their secondary market value is.
Right. Because it's impossible for WotC to reprint them in a way that keeps them out of Standard/UnExtended.
it's like wizards likes missing out on huge sums of cash. you could reprint old staples every few years with new art and other promotional stuff and people would gobble it up like candy.
instead they've chosen to support a group of people who provide them with minimal investment. the reserved list is probably the biggest hole in wizards pocket that they could patch in a second by saying "okay, no more reserved list"
Speaking entirely from a business standpoint, I'm guessing they feel the goodwill (which is a more-or-less quantifiable intangible asset) that comes from maintaining the reserve list is worth more than the revenue from breaking the reserve list and reprinting the duals and other high-demand cards.
I think one of the biggest problems (and I admit I'm just inferring things here and I may be wildly wrong) is in how they chose to abuse the "premium" loophole ostensibly without consulting their legal department, then someone freaked out when big-name cards started getting reprinted and started pressuring Wizards. So their legal department put a clamp on it and said "this is never changing, ever." They'd probably have had a better shot if they'd addressed the issue directly and officially before printing any reserved cards in premium form. Having already crossed the line when the issue was raised is probably what got them into the situation they're in.
technically there's nothing illegal with wizards printing everything on the reserved list whenever they want. there is no legal contract that was signed by anybody (as far as i know) claiming that wizards will never print any of those cards. players who view reserved cards as investments are relying entirely on wizard's word that they will never reprint them; there is no legal basis for their complaints.
Given the way Wizards immediately clamped down on it with a minimum of comment, it was clearly something their legal department forced on them. There's no way of knowing for sure since there was an obvious gag order, but someone down the line very clearly disagrees with "there's no legal basis for their complaints."
they may have decided against it for other reasons, but there is no legally binding contract that prevents them from printing any of those cards again.
pretty much means there is no legal backing of the reserve list, there would have been several links to scans and PDFs of the policy. not to mention it makes absolutely no sense to make it illegal for them to print anything. having it be illegal is a pure net-loss for wizards, whereas giving you their word is free.
pretty much means there is no legal backing of the reserve list, there would have been several links to scans and PDFs of the policy. not to mention it makes absolutely no sense to make it illegal for them to print anything. having it be illegal is a pure net-loss for wizards, whereas giving you their word is free.
You don't need a "scan or PDF" to make a contract. Any form of agreement is legally binding, whether it be written, electronic, verbal, or delivered through sign language. The only difference between the forms of contract is how easy it is to prove the agreement was made. Given the near-eternal memory of the Internet, an electronic agreement is almost as easy to prove as a written one, and in some cases even easier.
You don't need a "scan or PDF" to make a contract. Any form of agreement is legally binding, whether it be written, electronic, verbal, or delivered through sign language. The only difference between the forms of contract is how easy it is to prove the agreement was made. Given the near-eternal memory of the Internet, an electronic agreement is almost as easy to prove as a written one, and in some cases even easier.
in this case i would say it is pretty unenforceable, the entire list is just wizards saying "we're not going to reprint these cards with these limitations". a statement from a company saying "we won't do this for your benefit" and hten printing the reserve list would not likely (though i have no background in law) in my opinion be considered grounds for contract breach. that's not something you can enforce or claim was an actual contract. it might be a promise but it's no better than the guy on TV saying "This will be the best vacuum cleaner you've ever used!"
Except that printing 10'000 FTV duals will not get rid of the problem (even if they were still allowed to do that)...
I repeat myself but I see that people just don't understand or don't want to..
There were roughly 500K of each duals printed...How in the world do you think that 10K new duals (first time foil) would solve the problem? This FTV would be sold (and bought!) for $700 because EVERYBODY would want...I have around 90 duals and I would want at least 1 playset of these duals.
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Signed card collector Current signed cards count (31.12.16):
Diff. signed cards: 16'451 Artist alters: 828 Beta Project: 2574/2853 Grand Total signed cards: 42'091
Even if the reprint policy doesn't constitute a binding contract, I guarantee you someone will sue Wizards if they were to ever rescind the policy (probably claiming false advertising or the like). Even if there is no legal basis for the suit, it will cost Wizards money both in court and in defending themselves in public against accusations of going back on their word.
I kind of hinted at this in my previous posts, but I'm just going to come right out and ask it because I really want to know if I've missed something.
To all of you saying "WotC can still change this, they can still reprint these cards," I ask you: Is this opinion based on any actual official statement from Wizards? Has anyone in a position to know ever clearly stated that the reprint policy might legitimately be changed?
Because everything I've seen coming out of Wizards on this issue has done nothing but reaffirm the reprint policy and reassure those who own these cards that they will never be reprinted.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
Given the way Wizards immediately clamped down on it with a minimum of comment, it was clearly something their legal department forced on them. There's no way of knowing for sure since there was an obvious gag order, but someone down the line very clearly disagrees with "there's no legal basis for their complaints."
It might not even be that there's anything truly 'illegal' about reprints. It could very well be the legal department didn't want to risk any lawsuit, at all.
Makes me wonder who would be willing to sue, given the large amount of support there was for reprints.
Except that printing 10'000 FTV duals will not get rid of the problem (even if they were still allowed to do that)...
I repeat myself but I see that people just don't understand or don't want to..
There were roughly 500K of each duals printed...How in the world do you think that 10K new duals (first time foil) would solve the problem? This FTV would be sold (and bought!) for $700 because EVERYBODY would want...I have around 90 duals and I would want at least 1 playset of these duals.
I never attached a number to how many would be needed. And I wouldn't know. But arguing 'well, it wouldn't help even if they printed this many' is a rather defeatist statement.
Well then, would people complain if WoTC did the same thing that they did with the "Treasures" in Zendikar? I mean like from next set on or just on core sets have like a 1 per case legacy/vintage legal staple? I think that would be fair.
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"Failing to Find" Since March 2010.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Standard:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
Well then, would people complain if WoTC did the same thing that they did with the "Treasures" in Zendikar? I mean like from next set on or just on core sets have like a 1 per case legacy/vintage legal staple? I think that would be fair.
They have to buy those cards back from the secondary market unless you are suggesting they print some on the sly and slip them in (like I think they should).
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
My point wasn't that there could be benefits to Wizards by offering better support for Eternal formats.
My point is that they've made it abundantly clear that they're not going to.
Avvie courtesy of XenoNinja
Given the number of opportunities they've had to change the reserved list, and given that every time they've done nothing but reaffirm the list as it stands... I think any expectation of them to change their minds now is more based on wishful thinking than on any kind of evidence. I just don't see it happening.
Do you own a car that is older than 2 years old or have you ever? If so, you should throw away the car and buy a new one. Not sell the car, if you do that, you are hurting the company's bottom line. Throw the old car away, buy a new one every 2 years. Cars should not come with warranties that last longer than 2 years either, why should a car company keep supporting a car that it no longer makes? And wrecks due to vehicle problems that don't come up until the cars have been driven a few years but are glaring factory problems that kill people? The car company should not be liable, after all, they no longer support that car and thus it's not their problem. That product's already been sold, it's time for Car Manufacture, a company with a bottom line, to move forward. That's how their industry and their company exists - it moves forwards.
Do you see the fallacy in that argument? If I bought a product, such as a vehicle, from a company who would not stand behind their products for more than 2 years, well, correction, I wouldn't buy from that company. Same thing with the reprint policy. As an owner of a good number of expensive cards, if there was no reprint list, while mildly bothered that a company was trying to control the secondary market on their products, I would be fine with them reprinting them. I don't feel like it's WOTC job to make cards less expensive on the secondary market. But since we have this policy, with the only loophole I saw now closed, to go back on their word would mean their word was worthless. They would not only be standing behind their product, but would lying directly to their consumers. There in lies the issue. I proposed a version of a dual land that, while close, should not anger people. I'm sure there are other version that would find a happy median. But to reprint the original duals would be a poor choice from a customer relations side.
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
Edit: In other news Dell, HP, and Lenovo promised to remove harmful PVCs and BFRs from their computers. They didn't... and no one cared. People still buy computers from them.
:EDH:
WR Gisela, Blade of Goldnight (HOLD/100) WR
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion (HOLD/100) WB
If you've seen my posts on the Custom Card Contests and Games forum for the past few months, you'll notice I've been experimenting with just this: reservereprints that won't violate the List. I've already remade each one, and I'll post my entire list for critique at some point once I get some more personal review done.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
And no, you can't move on from the original duals. In order to do that you have to have something pretty darn close, otherwise people won't use them. Then you're back to square one.
Incidentally, the Reserved List doesn't apply to MTGO. Guess where Eternal will end up in a few years.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
You contradict yourself like 5 times within this single post.
I dont see WOTC needing a huge influx of cash, if they did World Wake would still be falling out of the printers and being sold. Stoneforge just made WW pack worth even more on the secondary market. So saying why doesnt WOTC print a collection that would bring in cash doesnt really work, when they have other options that would upset less people.
Remember these cards were taken away for one reason, balance. I dont really think anyone at WOTC cant sleep at night cause of cards from 1990 and what their secondary market value is.
Incorrect. The car is an antique. Antique cars cost more. If you want to drive an antique car and join an antique car club, the car usually costs a little more (eternal formats). You have original model T's (vintage), 1960's sports cars (legacy), 2008 model cars (extended) and 2010 model (standard). Of course, there are people who seem to buy an Escalade with all the accessories every couple years and then complain that they can't afford a 1960's sports car. That's the people who play stuff like mythic last season and then complain that legacy is too expensive. There are less than a handful of deck more expensive than mythic was last year, yet the problem is the cost of legacy, not the cards that will plummet in a few months yet people keep buying year after year? I'd be willing to be my truck that if a person had bought as many revised duals lands (nm/ex+) condition as they could with the cost of the deck "Mythic" that they would have actually made money in the transaction (obviously this assumes the person pays fair value for the cards and nobody has the "lol, I win, I coulda bought a Plateau for $1100! attitude). Welcome to decisions people, you can spend $1000 a year to keep up with standard or $1000 once to have a legacy deck. One of those will consistently hold value and the other won't. Or, you know, make the one time investment into legacy and then keep playing standard starting the next season, so you can do both.
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
Right. Because it's impossible for WotC to reprint them in a way that keeps them out of Standard/UnExtended.
Except they did with previous FtV.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
instead they've chosen to support a group of people who provide them with minimal investment. the reserved list is probably the biggest hole in wizards pocket that they could patch in a second by saying "okay, no more reserved list"
I think one of the biggest problems (and I admit I'm just inferring things here and I may be wildly wrong) is in how they chose to abuse the "premium" loophole ostensibly without consulting their legal department, then someone freaked out when big-name cards started getting reprinted and started pressuring Wizards. So their legal department put a clamp on it and said "this is never changing, ever." They'd probably have had a better shot if they'd addressed the issue directly and officially before printing any reserved cards in premium form. Having already crossed the line when the issue was raised is probably what got them into the situation they're in.
just linking this: http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy
pretty much means there is no legal backing of the reserve list, there would have been several links to scans and PDFs of the policy. not to mention it makes absolutely no sense to make it illegal for them to print anything. having it be illegal is a pure net-loss for wizards, whereas giving you their word is free.
in this case i would say it is pretty unenforceable, the entire list is just wizards saying "we're not going to reprint these cards with these limitations". a statement from a company saying "we won't do this for your benefit" and hten printing the reserve list would not likely (though i have no background in law) in my opinion be considered grounds for contract breach. that's not something you can enforce or claim was an actual contract. it might be a promise but it's no better than the guy on TV saying "This will be the best vacuum cleaner you've ever used!"
No offense, but this seems to be something a lot of people talking about the reserve list seem to qualify their statements with (even myself).
Except that printing 10'000 FTV duals will not get rid of the problem (even if they were still allowed to do that)...
I repeat myself but I see that people just don't understand or don't want to..
There were roughly 500K of each duals printed...How in the world do you think that 10K new duals (first time foil) would solve the problem? This FTV would be sold (and bought!) for $700 because EVERYBODY would want...I have around 90 duals and I would want at least 1 playset of these duals.
Current signed cards count (31.12.16):
Artist alters: 828
Beta Project: 2574/2853
Grand Total signed cards: 42'091
All my stuff in a FB group
Me@WOTC
I kind of hinted at this in my previous posts, but I'm just going to come right out and ask it because I really want to know if I've missed something.
To all of you saying "WotC can still change this, they can still reprint these cards," I ask you: Is this opinion based on any actual official statement from Wizards? Has anyone in a position to know ever clearly stated that the reprint policy might legitimately be changed?
Because everything I've seen coming out of Wizards on this issue has done nothing but reaffirm the reprint policy and reassure those who own these cards that they will never be reprinted.
It might not even be that there's anything truly 'illegal' about reprints. It could very well be the legal department didn't want to risk any lawsuit, at all.
Makes me wonder who would be willing to sue, given the large amount of support there was for reprints.
I never attached a number to how many would be needed. And I wouldn't know. But arguing 'well, it wouldn't help even if they printed this many' is a rather defeatist statement.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
They have to buy those cards back from the secondary market unless you are suggesting they print some on the sly and slip them in (like I think they should).
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.