Let me make this clear. A BGS 10 alpha mox jet is worth around 25 grand. There are people with a lot of money in slabbed cards in the range of half a million or more dollars. Do you think these people will not spend a ludicrous amount of money in legal fees?
Only a scant number of Magic cards have sold for that kind of money. Most owners of reserved list cards got them for MUCH less (some even got them for MRSP back in the 1990's). Not much of a class action lawsuit to be had. (Hope they kept their receipts.)
Let me make this clear. A BGS 10 alpha mox jet is worth around 25 grand. There are people with a lot of money in slabbed cards in the range of half a million or more dollars. Do you think these people will not spend a ludicrous amount of money in legal fees?
Only a scant number of Magic cards have sold for that kind of money. Most owners of reserved list cards got them for MUCH less (some even got them for MRSP back in the 1990's). Not much of a class action lawsuit to be had. (Hope they kept their receipts.)
I'm not implying they would win. Just that the court cases that could show up have a cost in themselves that is quite significant. That and there are unknown repercussions to bringing this to court. I don't think the secondary market sellers want a regulated market and this would definitely make some headlines.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't think the secondary market sellers want a regulated market and this would definitely make some headlines.
Well, that black lotus that went for close to 90K made yahoo front page.....
What we really need is someone who is an actual share holder and can look or at least ask the right people at Hasbro or even WotC about the logic behind the RL without having to sign an NDA ( I know pie in the sky). It's clear that it isn't immutable, the questions we need to ask are : What circumstances lead to the previous changes and can they be replicated in some form or fashion?
I think that there is a bit of a false narrative being pushed and that's
the Evil Collectors vs the Honorable Players.
So let me ask you a question. Right here, right now if I were to put $7000 into magic cards, do the honorable players want that?
Cause it sounds like the answer is no. It sounds like the answer is, "why don't you take your money and go somewhere else. You're not going to be a true player. That $7000 is just going to suck up more supply, making it pricier for the rest of us."
I called this a false narrative because I hope all of you, Player, collector, or what have you can see problems with that.
The problem is that you're actively driving away money that would go into the mtg market.
The MTG market is and has always been a vital part of MTG. Wizards needs it so they can sell cardboard for 90 dollars a box. Stores need it so they can sell their product. Players need it to recover their expenses when they trade in and out of cards.
And when I say it's always been a vital part of MTG, i mean honestly players alone can't keep magic afloat. Nobody has the time to sit around grinding year after year except for a select few. Players move in and out of the game. They get married, have kids, fix their homes, transition their careers, etc. And those inactive players are de facto "collectors" because they're not making active use of their cards. The card stock laying dormant in their decks is no different from the dormancy of the evil collector.
Player vs Collector is a false narrative. And actively driving away market participants is just something that's bad for everyone.
I hope MTG flourishes as an online game, because it would revitalize Legacy and Vintage in a way thats never been done before. Everyone keeps harping on the reserve list as this great evil that killed Legacy. But the truth is deeper. The growth of MTG has stalled in recent years. There's a larger force at work where paper magic itself may no longer be the relevant venue to game.
Lotta MtG players are straight up commies lol. They think they have a right to whatever they want.
While I disagree with many view points, those people have a right to those view points in the same way I have a right to mine. What I can't and won't tolerate is the straight up inciteful statement you have just made saying "Lotta MtG players are straight up commies..."
I think that there is a bit of a false narrative being pushed and that's
the Evil Collectors vs the Honorable Players.
So let me ask you a question. Right here, right now if I were to put $7000 into magic cards, do the honorable players want that?
Cause it sounds like the answer is no. It sounds like the answer is, "why don't you take your money and go somewhere else. You're not going to be a true player. That $7000 is just going to suck up more supply, making it pricier for the rest of us."
I called this a false narrative because I hope all of you, Player, collector, or what have you can see problems with that.
The problem is that you're actively driving away money that would go into the mtg market.
The MTG market is and has always been a vital part of MTG. Wizards needs it so they can sell cardboard for 90 dollars a box. Stores need it so they can sell their product. Players need it to recover their expenses when they trade in and out of cards.
And when I say it's always been a vital part of MTG, i mean honestly players alone can't keep magic afloat. Nobody has the time to sit around grinding year after year except for a select few. Players move in and out of the game. They get married, have kids, fix their homes, transition their careers, etc. And those inactive players are de facto "collectors" because they're not making active use of their cards. The card stock laying dormant in their decks is no different from the dormancy of the evil collector.
Player vs Collector is a false narrative. And actively driving away market participants is just something that's bad for everyone.
I hope MTG flourishes as an online game, because it would revitalize Legacy and Vintage in a way thats never been done before. Everyone keeps harping on the reserve list as this great evil that killed Legacy. But the truth is deeper. The growth of MTG has stalled in recent years. There's a larger force at work where paper magic itself may no longer be the relevant venue to game.
There's this excellent saying for every youtube content creator - from all walks of life, from any corner of the planet: "Do not read the youtube comments"
I think that concept (in regards to how serious to take commentary) applies to the Magic community. Lots of whinging and lots of frustration can make for an irritable lot!
You're free to use your money as you wish and I hope you don't feel like you are being made to ask our opinion before you do what you want with your own resources - although I have not witnessed anyone do as you have done and ask first. That is respectable and I want to thank you for seeking input from the community - despite the often annoyed overtone of the conversations going on here. Your doing a commendable thing in your investigation here, but you are ultimately an adult who gave your time on this earth for what resources you have acquired and if you have the means to have a more fulfilling life, go ahead. That's my 2c
I couldn't agree more with the above statement. It's your money dude! Go spend it as you see fit. If that means you want a Lotus or a bunch of other RL cards, go do it! As a collector first and player second I do enjoy owning a lot of the history and powerful cards that I played with as a young teenager. Yeah, money in the stock market may appreciate more than RL cards, they may not. If you had that crystal ball, you'd be so rich you wouldn't need to discuss here! As for being part of the problem, you have to decide what is important to you. If owning the cards and preferring the "risk" of RL cards appreciating/depreciating over variances in the stock market, then there you go!
As for me, I do own a ton of RL cards and happily sunk thousands into them as recently as this year. I don't think you're part of the problem. There are a ton of people in their 30s and 40s that now have real jobs making 6 figures that can afford and want these cards. That's a big part of the reason you've seen the cost escalation.
Lotta MtG players are straight up commies lol. They think they have a right to whatever they want.
While I disagree with many view points, those people have a right to those view points in the same way I have a right to mine. What I can't and won't tolerate is the straight up inciteful statement you have just made saying "Lotta MtG players are straight up commies..."
Hmm, well I think what he was trying to convey is that people are inherently selfish, which is something that I tend to agree with partially. I believe people are selfish when they lack a solid direction in life that encourages the survival of the community. The united states really hasn't had a massive unifying event since the Terrorist attacks on the world trade center and has been devolving into internal bickering while small events and distractions take place.
This does actually play into the reserved list in a way. People who desire the preservation of the reserved list do so for selfish reasons, and those who want it abolished also do so for selfish reasons. For the list to ever get abolished Wizards of the Coast needs a financial reason to do so and not some kind of personal feel good reason from the community.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You all need to realize that the reserved list nothing to do with players and collectors, not even stores or “investors”. The reserved list policy is not a contract, these groups have no cause of promisary estoppel.
The reserved list is there to protect early artist, contributors, and people that invested in WOTC. These people were often given product as part of their compensation, with the promise that if it accrued value, the company would do all it could to maintain that value. Some of these people may still even be with WOTC.
If WOTC were to renege on the reserved list these people would have a case.
What boggles my mind is that no one seems to get this. Everyone is so focused on the rift between collectors/investors and players, on people being able to bring a class action law suit against WOTC. Collectors, investors, and players are not even considerations. Why does WOTC remain so tight lipped about it, because it’s a self serving policy. As long as the public is yammering on with a false narrative WOTC is free to not have to bother with it.
Let me make this clear. A BGS 10 alpha mox jet is worth around 25 grand. There are people with a lot of money in slabbed cards in the range of half a million or more dollars. Do you think these people will not spend a ludicrous amount of money in legal fees?
Hiring a lawyer doesn't automatically mean that there's going to be an expensive trial. These kinds of cases tend to go into arbitration to begin with.
Also, if you do not even have a case, that expensive lawyer will tell you, lawyers aren't in the habit of wasting their own time with something that will never have chance. Collector's do not have a contract with WOTC, a company announcing a change in policy is not an agreement between parties. The fees accrued during an arbitration could easily be recouped by the sales of reserved list reprints. The reserved list is an assurance, not a guarantee, that your cards will maintain value. There are market forces at work here after all. The collectible market is much like the stock market, invest at your own risk. In the end it's all about what's in writing, and we know WOTC has no contract with collectors, stores, or players. Since we'll never be privy to what's in writing we're left guessing. The best can do is try to extrapolate with the info we have.
You all need to realize that the reserved list nothing to do with players and collectors, not even stores or “investors”. The reserved list policy is not a contract, these groups have no cause of promisary estoppel.
The reserved list is there to protect early artist, contributors, and people that invested in WOTC. These people were often given product as part of their compensation, with the promise that if it accrued value, the company would do all it could to maintain that value. Some of these people may still even be with WOTC.
Do you have someway to back up your claim?
Actually no. This is based upon conversations I had with various artist who did work for WOTC, or didn't do work for WOTC, all back around '95. I lived in Seattle at the time and knew a couple of the artist, met a handful more, and was friends with some artists that turned WOTC down. The artists that turned down doing work were good friends with other artists working for WOTC at the time.
Secondly, a lot of this is extrapolation. Knowing what I know from these conversations, having some minor understanding of contract law and promissory estoppel(and some advice from people who truly know), and knowing the early history of WOTC, this, to me, is the most logical conclusion.
I will admit I've nothing definitive, just a hypothesis. But it seems like a good hypothesis, as good as any other. You can just discount my idea wholesale, or we can analyze it point by point to see whether any of it holds water. But since we don't know the real story it's all just speculation.
Lotta MtG players are straight up commies lol. They think they have a right to whatever they want.
While I disagree with many view points, those people have a right to those view points in the same way I have a right to mine. What I can't and won't tolerate is the straight up inciteful statement you have just made saying "Lotta MtG players are straight up commies..."
Hmm, well I think what he was trying to convey is that people are inherently selfish, which is something that I tend to agree with partially. I believe people are selfish when they lack a solid direction in life that encourages the survival of the community. The united states really hasn't had a massive unifying event since the Terrorist attacks on the world trade center and has been devolving into internal bickering while small events and distractions take place.
This does actually play into the reserved list in a way. People who desire the preservation of the reserved list do so for selfish reasons, and those who want it abolished also do so for selfish reasons. For the list to ever get abolished Wizards of the Coast needs a financial reason to do so and not some kind of personal feel good reason from the community.
I think it ultimately boils down to whether or not Magic players and collectors will have a nostalgic connection toward modern Magic products as opposed to old school Magic products where oversaturation of product wasn't as big of an issue. It's not so much about the Reserved List itself when it's mostly about the cards themselves, the artists, the artwork, and how it represents a bygone era that no longer exists in today's world. Expanding the Reserved List wouldn't persuade people to collect modern Magic products when all it does it hurt their ability to actually play the game. I think Wizards of the Coast has been actively trying to avoid repeating the same mistake they made when they first enacted the Reserved List through oversaturating product as a way to offset card scarcity while understanding the expected value of specific cards.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I'm jumping into this pretty late, and this may have been discussed, but as an example: Birds of Paradise has been printed 17 times, and Alpha copies are worth over $2,100, Beta copies are over $1,200, Unlimited copies are nearly $300, and 7th Edition Foils are $500. The value is held because their value isn't directly tied to playability, but influenced heavily by rarity/scarcity. Their value is holding extremely strong, while still allowing people who just want them to play with them, the ability to get any number of print variants between $6-10.
New reprints will not diminish the cost of original printings by much, unless they are artificially inflated due to mindless speculation and not an actually-played, in-demand card. So if you're buying up Narwhal in order to spike the price, you deserve to lose your money. If you're sitting on ABUR duals and high-demand cards, the authenticity and rarity of "original printings" will carry with it a premium price compared to the new ones. Especially if they're done in an extremely rare/limited release (Mythic of Masters set or god forbid, Masterpieces).
The problem with reprinting dual is the supply and the demand. Wizards reprint a dual land and if it's black border (or black border/foil) you are looking at a high demand. The duals will be worth more than the white border duals! I'm not assuming this, I know because the HISTORY of how players treated white border magic cards years ago!
I do believe that if your playing in a tournament you NEED the REAL CARDS! No Proxies! That's because I strongly believe that Magic Tournaments borderlines GAMBLING.
On the other hand if your a casual player, play on the kitchen table with friends, etc... Proxy any card you like! I don't see any issue with this. Heck you could proxy a $50,000 Vintage deck with the cost of basic lands and a marker.
I don't see wizards dropping the reserve list, they are not pushing Vintage and Legacy. They are pushing EDH/Commander, but the lands they are supporting works for causal play. And lets not forget that EDH/Commander was intended for causal play.
The problem with reprinting dual is the supply and the demand. Wizards reprint a dual land and if it's black border (or black border/foil) you are looking at a high demand. The duals will be worth more than the white border duals! I'm not assuming this, I know because the HISTORY of how players treated white border magic cards years ago!
That would not the case today if WOTC reprinted dual lands. First off the reprints would have a modern frame and different art. There are people out there that prefer the old art and old frames. I am one of those. I own full playsets of duals, mostly Revised with a few Unlimited. There is no way I'd trade those in for newer black boarder duals. There has also been a movement of nostalgic formats being born, the most notable 93/94, in these formats only the original art and frames are allowed. For many players that have been in the game for over 20 years these old cards are more desirable because of nostalgia.
Newer players would probably be drawn to new black boardered reprints, and there are players with an anathema towards white boarders. The reprints would be for this crowd.
Depending upon the size of the print run, reprints of duals would hardly affect the price. If you were to watch the market after a valuable card gets reprinted you'd see a pattern. At first the price on the older printing(s) stabilizes, and it might drop a bit. But after the hub bub settles down the originals start to creep back up. This of course is all dependent on how many times a card has been reprinted, and how large a print run they get. Look at how many reprints it took to drive down the price of Tarmogoyf, and look at the prices for an original Doubling Season.
My thought on a dual land reprint run is; if the print run is small, something like a masterpiece series, the prices won,t budge. If they got a reprint in a larger casual product, such as Battlebond, Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited prices would actually go up. Revised might see an initial drop or stabilization, but as players started focusing on acquiring the newer versions, collectors and "investors" would move in hard and heavy on those Revised lands, sending the prices right back up.
You cannot compare to Tarmogoyf and Doubling Season to a card that you only have access to that's black border is version Alpha/Beta at the price tag of +3,000 dollars!
I know there's an issue with black border vs white border cards when players were using sharpies to color in the white border magic card. If you're not around during that time, you might want to ask a few card-shops. I would believe they could tell you a few stories.
As for investors... I'm sorry but I thought the game was called CCG... COLLECTIBLE card game. This is not a board game, it's a collectible card game.
As for new face, sorry but 80% to 90% of the decks that I play has new face cards. Besides a few bombs that were made before the new face, most of the playable cards are new face cards.
On the other hand, looking on how wizards handled the reprinting of Tarmogoyf Original is 100. reprint is 70 dollars. that's a 30% price reduction. 70 dollars is a a lot of money. So how does the reprinting of Tarmogoyf helps the format? Take the account that Duals lands are necessary for Vintage/Legacy, so how is a 70 dollar price tag helps? I remember when Duals lands were hitting 50 dollars a pop and players were *****ing about the cost.
You cannot compare to Tarmogoyf and Doubling Season to a card that you only have access to that's black border is version Alpha/Beta at the price tag of +3,000 dollars!
I know there's an issue with black border vs white border cards when players were using sharpies to color in the white border magic card. If you're not around during that time, you might want to ask a few card-shops. I would believe they could tell you a few stories.
As for investors... I'm sorry but I thought the game was called CCG... COLLECTIBLE card game. This is not a board game, it's a collectible card game.
As for new face, sorry but 80% to 90% of the decks that I play has new face cards. Besides a few bombs that were made before the new face, most of the playable cards are new face cards.
On the other hand, looking on how wizards handled the reprinting of Tarmogoyf Original is 100. reprint is 70 dollars. that's a 30% price reduction. 70 dollars is a a lot of money. So how does the reprinting of Tarmogoyf helps the format? Take the account that Duals lands are necessary for Vintage/Legacy, so how is a 70 dollar price tag helps? I remember when Duals lands were hitting 50 dollars a pop and players were *****ing about the cost.
I was not comparing Tarmogoyf and Doubling Season to Alpha and Beta cards, I was just using them as examples of what happens to card prices after reprints.
And yes there is a price variance between original Tarmogoyph and reprints the same way an Alpha Shivan Dragon costs more than a Tenth Edition. And while the prices for Tarmogoyf are what you've stated, at one Point it was pushing $400 US. The crux of my point was how many reprints it took to get it down to it's current value. And yes there is a 30% difference in the price, but if you want the original first printing, you're paying 30% more than someone who doesn't care about that. So as newer and more budget minded players would buy the reprints, snobs like me will continue to play with our old school, white boarder fancy lands.
I started playing in '94, so yes I was around "back in the day", and yes back then people hated white boarder cards. I would always try to acquire the black boarder versions myself. And while I've heard of people sharpieing in the white boarders I've never seen anyone do that personally. The attitudes and mentalities of players have changed much since the mid '90s. Anyone that colored in the white boarders of their cards has basically ruined them for resale.
It seems that by your response to me that you've completely missed what I was getting at. I was by no means lumping all Magic players into one demographic, most of the people I play with most of the time are using predominately newer cards, however, there has been an uptick in people playing and collecting the older cards. Reprints would have little to no bearing on the market for older cards is all I'm getting at. Reprinted dual lands would be bought up by the Legacy and Commander crowds, people playing Old School formats would still go after those Revised duals. Revised Underground Seas are selling for over $450 US, I don't think a reprint would send that price crashing down.
I was not comparing Tarmogoyf and Doubling Season to Alpha and Beta cards, I was just using them as examples of what happens to card prices after reprints.
You were comparing the reprints as if reprints in general. I got that. I'm telling you that it's not the same because the black border version of the dual lands are worth thousands of dollars, while the black border versions of Tarmogoyf is 100 dollars.
I started playing in '94, so yes I was around "back in the day", and yes back then people hated white boarder cards.
I think this proves my point!
I would always try to acquire the black boarder versions myself.
Again proves my point!
And while I've heard of people sharpieing in the white boarders I've never seen anyone do that personally.
Really? I've bought 2 Lions Eye Diamonds (at the time for 25 cents each because LEDS was a worthless card) and I took a sharpie and named them black lotus. One of the most common thing a card shop owner looks at is the border of the magic card to see if a marker was used.
The attitudes and mentalities of players have changed much since the mid '90s. Anyone that colored in the white boarders of their cards has basically ruined them for resale.
It seems that by your response to me that you've completely missed what I was getting at. I was by no means lumping all Magic players into one demographic, most of the people I play with most of the time are using predominately newer cards, however, there has been an uptick in people playing and collecting the older cards. Reprints would have little to no bearing on the market for older cards is all I'm getting at. Reprinted dual lands would be bought up by the Legacy and Commander crowds, people playing Old School formats would still go after those Revised duals. Revised Underground Seas are selling for over $450 US, I don't think a reprint would send that price crashing down.
This is what you don't get. It's not that selling a reprint will decrease the value of the card. The reprint will increase in value, because it's black border.
And at what cost is wizards going to sell those booster packs. I know wizards said for years they don't follow the second market, but everything they do is based on the second market. Example: Force of will gets reprinted into a mystic (which has more value then the Alliances card). Why Mystic? Because the card's already has a second market value.
You cannot compare to Tarmogoyf and Doubling Season to a card that you only have access to that's black border is version Alpha/Beta at the price tag of +3,000 dollars!
I know there's an issue with black border vs white border cards when players were using sharpies to color in the white border magic card. If you're not around during that time, you might want to ask a few card-shops. I would believe they could tell you a few stories.
As for investors... I'm sorry but I thought the game was called CCG... COLLECTIBLE card game. This is not a board game, it's a collectible card game.
As for new face, sorry but 80% to 90% of the decks that I play has new face cards. Besides a few bombs that were made before the new face, most of the playable cards are new face cards.
On the other hand, looking on how wizards handled the reprinting of Tarmogoyf Original is 100. reprint is 70 dollars. that's a 30% price reduction. 70 dollars is a a lot of money. So how does the reprinting of Tarmogoyf helps the format? Take the account that Duals lands are necessary for Vintage/Legacy, so how is a 70 dollar price tag helps? I remember when Duals lands were hitting 50 dollars a pop and players were *****ing about the cost.
I made exactly the case on the last page why originals will still hold value:
I'm jumping into this pretty late, and this may have been discussed, but as an example: Birds of Paradise has been printed 17 times, and Alpha copies are worth over $2,100, Beta copies are over $1,200, Unlimited copies are nearly $300, and 7th Edition Foils are $500. The value is held because their value isn't directly tied to playability, but influenced heavily by rarity/scarcity. Their value is holding extremely strong, while still allowing people who just want them to play with them, the ability to get any number of print variants between $6-10.
New reprints will not diminish the cost of original printings by much, unless they are artificially inflated due to mindless speculation and not an actually-played, in-demand card. So if you're buying up Narwhal in order to spike the price, you deserve to lose your money. If you're sitting on ABUR duals and high-demand cards, the authenticity and rarity of "original printings" will carry with it a premium price compared to the new ones. Especially if they're done in an extremely rare/limited release (Mythic of Masters set or god forbid, Masterpieces).
It's not that selling a reprint will decrease the value of the card. The reprint will increase in value, because it's black border.
At no point was/am I concerned with the value of a reprint. My whole point revolves around how a reprint effects older card values. That's whole point of the Reserved List, to preserve older cards value. Some people believe that reprinting Reserved List cards would cause a significant loss of value, and my position is that it wouldn't, in the long term.
A dual land that gets reprinted, with it's shiny black boarder, could possibly reach values of Revised versions, but they'd never be anywhere near the price of an Alpha, Beta, or Unlimited. And if the print run were small enough, they could even exceed the prices of Revised.
It's not that selling a reprint will decrease the value of the card. The reprint will increase in value, because it's black border.
At no point was/am I concerned with the value of a reprint. My whole point revolves around how a reprint effects older card values. That's whole point of the Reserved List, to preserve older cards value. Some people believe that reprinting Reserved List cards would cause a significant loss of value, and my position is that it wouldn't, in the long term.
A dual land that gets reprinted, with it's shiny black boarder, could possibly reach values of Revised versions, but they'd never be anywhere near the price of an Alpha, Beta, or Unlimited. And if the print run were small enough, they could even exceed the prices of Revised.
I don't see reprinting a dual lands is going to help formats such as Legacy, Vintage and Commander. Because these cards will be worth 200 to 500 dollars from opening a booster pack. This is the reality that I'm addressing. Wizards know that those cards are going to be 'money cards' in the second market. They allowed reprinting of Force of Will as mystics, not to step on the toes of those that spent 100 dollars on the original Force of Will, but it still dont allow access to newer players, especially those that would like to be a playset for 20 dollars!
I do believe wizards can go around the reserve list by making NEW dual lands, or make the new dual lands legendary lands that's only legal to Legacy, Vintage and Commander. And they can do that during the printing of Commander decks. But they don't. Why? Maybe wizards wants to push out dual for shock lands, maybe they know that commander boxes will sell out quickly, or maybe they need to add 40 more dollars to the cost of the commander decks.
The only time the reserve list is going to be dropped, is if Wizards of the Coast is bought out by some other company and that company removes the reserve list.
Maybe it's would be better that card shops could make their own proxies and rent them to players...
To be frank the reserved list is a trap. The main reason cards on the list have value are the same reasons modern cards and non reserved list cards do: they see play in tournaments and in commander. If wizards makes a product that allows modern to get cards without going through standard, it basically solves the RL problem by making modern fill the role of legacy. They could take all the crazy stuff from legacy that isn't RL and just transplant those cards into modern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To be frank the reserved list is a trap. The main reason cards on the list have value are the same reasons modern cards and non reserved list cards do: they see play in tournaments and in commander. If wizards makes a product that allows modern to get cards without going through standard, it basically solves the RL problem by making modern fill the role of legacy. They could take all the crazy stuff from legacy that isn't RL and just transplant those cards into modern.
Wouldn't that be virtually guaranteed to kill modern as it currently exists? It would be modern in name only, as cards like Force of Will etc showed up.
To be frank the reserved list is a trap. The main reason cards on the list have value are the same reasons modern cards and non reserved list cards do: they see play in tournaments and in commander. If wizards makes a product that allows modern to get cards without going through standard, it basically solves the RL problem by making modern fill the role of legacy. They could take all the crazy stuff from legacy that isn't RL and just transplant those cards into modern.
Amen brother, get the word out
we need format bypassing cards
Edit: I might add the detail of "They could take all the crazy stuff from legacy that isn't RL and just transplant those cards into modern/Eternal-legal only products"
To be frank the reserved list is a trap. The main reason cards on the list have value are the same reasons modern cards and non reserved list cards do: they see play in tournaments and in commander. If wizards makes a product that allows modern to get cards without going through standard, it basically solves the RL problem by making modern fill the role of legacy. They could take all the crazy stuff from legacy that isn't RL and just transplant those cards into modern.
Wouldn't that be virtually guaranteed to kill modern as it currently exists? It would be modern in name only, as cards like Force of Will etc showed up.
They kill modern as it exists all the time. Modern was different before BFZ dropped, it was different after Fatal push, and it changed again with ixalan. Now it has changed because of Dominaria. Modern needs more creative freedom that commander enjoys and Battlebond instead of being a slave to standard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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Only a scant number of Magic cards have sold for that kind of money. Most owners of reserved list cards got them for MUCH less (some even got them for MRSP back in the 1990's). Not much of a class action lawsuit to be had. (Hope they kept their receipts.)
I'm not implying they would win. Just that the court cases that could show up have a cost in themselves that is quite significant. That and there are unknown repercussions to bringing this to court. I don't think the secondary market sellers want a regulated market and this would definitely make some headlines.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well, that black lotus that went for close to 90K made yahoo front page.....
What we really need is someone who is an actual share holder and can look or at least ask the right people at Hasbro or even WotC about the logic behind the RL without having to sign an NDA ( I know pie in the sky). It's clear that it isn't immutable, the questions we need to ask are : What circumstances lead to the previous changes and can they be replicated in some form or fashion?
the Evil Collectors vs the Honorable Players.
So let me ask you a question. Right here, right now if I were to put $7000 into magic cards, do the honorable players want that?
Cause it sounds like the answer is no. It sounds like the answer is, "why don't you take your money and go somewhere else. You're not going to be a true player. That $7000 is just going to suck up more supply, making it pricier for the rest of us."
I called this a false narrative because I hope all of you, Player, collector, or what have you can see problems with that.
The problem is that you're actively driving away money that would go into the mtg market.
The MTG market is and has always been a vital part of MTG. Wizards needs it so they can sell cardboard for 90 dollars a box. Stores need it so they can sell their product. Players need it to recover their expenses when they trade in and out of cards.
And when I say it's always been a vital part of MTG, i mean honestly players alone can't keep magic afloat. Nobody has the time to sit around grinding year after year except for a select few. Players move in and out of the game. They get married, have kids, fix their homes, transition their careers, etc. And those inactive players are de facto "collectors" because they're not making active use of their cards. The card stock laying dormant in their decks is no different from the dormancy of the evil collector.
Player vs Collector is a false narrative. And actively driving away market participants is just something that's bad for everyone.
I hope MTG flourishes as an online game, because it would revitalize Legacy and Vintage in a way thats never been done before. Everyone keeps harping on the reserve list as this great evil that killed Legacy. But the truth is deeper. The growth of MTG has stalled in recent years. There's a larger force at work where paper magic itself may no longer be the relevant venue to game.
While I disagree with many view points, those people have a right to those view points in the same way I have a right to mine. What I can't and won't tolerate is the straight up inciteful statement you have just made saying "Lotta MtG players are straight up commies..."
There's this excellent saying for every youtube content creator - from all walks of life, from any corner of the planet: "Do not read the youtube comments"
I think that concept (in regards to how serious to take commentary) applies to the Magic community. Lots of whinging and lots of frustration can make for an irritable lot!
You're free to use your money as you wish and I hope you don't feel like you are being made to ask our opinion before you do what you want with your own resources - although I have not witnessed anyone do as you have done and ask first. That is respectable and I want to thank you for seeking input from the community - despite the often annoyed overtone of the conversations going on here. Your doing a commendable thing in your investigation here, but you are ultimately an adult who gave your time on this earth for what resources you have acquired and if you have the means to have a more fulfilling life, go ahead. That's my 2c
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
As for me, I do own a ton of RL cards and happily sunk thousands into them as recently as this year. I don't think you're part of the problem. There are a ton of people in their 30s and 40s that now have real jobs making 6 figures that can afford and want these cards. That's a big part of the reason you've seen the cost escalation.
Hmm, well I think what he was trying to convey is that people are inherently selfish, which is something that I tend to agree with partially. I believe people are selfish when they lack a solid direction in life that encourages the survival of the community. The united states really hasn't had a massive unifying event since the Terrorist attacks on the world trade center and has been devolving into internal bickering while small events and distractions take place.
This does actually play into the reserved list in a way. People who desire the preservation of the reserved list do so for selfish reasons, and those who want it abolished also do so for selfish reasons. For the list to ever get abolished Wizards of the Coast needs a financial reason to do so and not some kind of personal feel good reason from the community.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Hiring a lawyer doesn't automatically mean that there's going to be an expensive trial. These kinds of cases tend to go into arbitration to begin with.
Also, if you do not even have a case, that expensive lawyer will tell you, lawyers aren't in the habit of wasting their own time with something that will never have chance. Collector's do not have a contract with WOTC, a company announcing a change in policy is not an agreement between parties. The fees accrued during an arbitration could easily be recouped by the sales of reserved list reprints. The reserved list is an assurance, not a guarantee, that your cards will maintain value. There are market forces at work here after all. The collectible market is much like the stock market, invest at your own risk. In the end it's all about what's in writing, and we know WOTC has no contract with collectors, stores, or players. Since we'll never be privy to what's in writing we're left guessing. The best can do is try to extrapolate with the info we have.
Actually no. This is based upon conversations I had with various artist who did work for WOTC, or didn't do work for WOTC, all back around '95. I lived in Seattle at the time and knew a couple of the artist, met a handful more, and was friends with some artists that turned WOTC down. The artists that turned down doing work were good friends with other artists working for WOTC at the time.
Secondly, a lot of this is extrapolation. Knowing what I know from these conversations, having some minor understanding of contract law and promissory estoppel(and some advice from people who truly know), and knowing the early history of WOTC, this, to me, is the most logical conclusion.
I will admit I've nothing definitive, just a hypothesis. But it seems like a good hypothesis, as good as any other. You can just discount my idea wholesale, or we can analyze it point by point to see whether any of it holds water. But since we don't know the real story it's all just speculation.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
New reprints will not diminish the cost of original printings by much, unless they are artificially inflated due to mindless speculation and not an actually-played, in-demand card. So if you're buying up Narwhal in order to spike the price, you deserve to lose your money. If you're sitting on ABUR duals and high-demand cards, the authenticity and rarity of "original printings" will carry with it a premium price compared to the new ones. Especially if they're done in an extremely rare/limited release (Mythic of Masters set or god forbid, Masterpieces).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I do believe that if your playing in a tournament you NEED the REAL CARDS! No Proxies! That's because I strongly believe that Magic Tournaments borderlines GAMBLING.
On the other hand if your a casual player, play on the kitchen table with friends, etc... Proxy any card you like! I don't see any issue with this. Heck you could proxy a $50,000 Vintage deck with the cost of basic lands and a marker.
I don't see wizards dropping the reserve list, they are not pushing Vintage and Legacy. They are pushing EDH/Commander, but the lands they are supporting works for causal play. And lets not forget that EDH/Commander was intended for causal play.
That would not the case today if WOTC reprinted dual lands. First off the reprints would have a modern frame and different art. There are people out there that prefer the old art and old frames. I am one of those. I own full playsets of duals, mostly Revised with a few Unlimited. There is no way I'd trade those in for newer black boarder duals. There has also been a movement of nostalgic formats being born, the most notable 93/94, in these formats only the original art and frames are allowed. For many players that have been in the game for over 20 years these old cards are more desirable because of nostalgia.
Newer players would probably be drawn to new black boardered reprints, and there are players with an anathema towards white boarders. The reprints would be for this crowd.
Depending upon the size of the print run, reprints of duals would hardly affect the price. If you were to watch the market after a valuable card gets reprinted you'd see a pattern. At first the price on the older printing(s) stabilizes, and it might drop a bit. But after the hub bub settles down the originals start to creep back up. This of course is all dependent on how many times a card has been reprinted, and how large a print run they get. Look at how many reprints it took to drive down the price of Tarmogoyf, and look at the prices for an original Doubling Season.
My thought on a dual land reprint run is; if the print run is small, something like a masterpiece series, the prices won,t budge. If they got a reprint in a larger casual product, such as Battlebond, Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited prices would actually go up. Revised might see an initial drop or stabilization, but as players started focusing on acquiring the newer versions, collectors and "investors" would move in hard and heavy on those Revised lands, sending the prices right back up.
I know there's an issue with black border vs white border cards when players were using sharpies to color in the white border magic card. If you're not around during that time, you might want to ask a few card-shops. I would believe they could tell you a few stories.
As for investors... I'm sorry but I thought the game was called CCG... COLLECTIBLE card game. This is not a board game, it's a collectible card game.
As for new face, sorry but 80% to 90% of the decks that I play has new face cards. Besides a few bombs that were made before the new face, most of the playable cards are new face cards.
On the other hand, looking on how wizards handled the reprinting of Tarmogoyf Original is 100. reprint is 70 dollars. that's a 30% price reduction. 70 dollars is a a lot of money. So how does the reprinting of Tarmogoyf helps the format? Take the account that Duals lands are necessary for Vintage/Legacy, so how is a 70 dollar price tag helps? I remember when Duals lands were hitting 50 dollars a pop and players were *****ing about the cost.
I was not comparing Tarmogoyf and Doubling Season to Alpha and Beta cards, I was just using them as examples of what happens to card prices after reprints.
And yes there is a price variance between original Tarmogoyph and reprints the same way an Alpha Shivan Dragon costs more than a Tenth Edition. And while the prices for Tarmogoyf are what you've stated, at one Point it was pushing $400 US. The crux of my point was how many reprints it took to get it down to it's current value. And yes there is a 30% difference in the price, but if you want the original first printing, you're paying 30% more than someone who doesn't care about that. So as newer and more budget minded players would buy the reprints, snobs like me will continue to play with our old school, white boarder fancy lands.
I started playing in '94, so yes I was around "back in the day", and yes back then people hated white boarder cards. I would always try to acquire the black boarder versions myself. And while I've heard of people sharpieing in the white boarders I've never seen anyone do that personally. The attitudes and mentalities of players have changed much since the mid '90s. Anyone that colored in the white boarders of their cards has basically ruined them for resale.
It seems that by your response to me that you've completely missed what I was getting at. I was by no means lumping all Magic players into one demographic, most of the people I play with most of the time are using predominately newer cards, however, there has been an uptick in people playing and collecting the older cards. Reprints would have little to no bearing on the market for older cards is all I'm getting at. Reprinted dual lands would be bought up by the Legacy and Commander crowds, people playing Old School formats would still go after those Revised duals. Revised Underground Seas are selling for over $450 US, I don't think a reprint would send that price crashing down.
You were comparing the reprints as if reprints in general. I got that. I'm telling you that it's not the same because the black border version of the dual lands are worth thousands of dollars, while the black border versions of Tarmogoyf is 100 dollars.
I think this proves my point!
Again proves my point!
Really? I've bought 2 Lions Eye Diamonds (at the time for 25 cents each because LEDS was a worthless card) and I took a sharpie and named them black lotus. One of the most common thing a card shop owner looks at is the border of the magic card to see if a marker was used.
Here on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mana-Vault-Unlimited-MTG-Magic-the-Gathering-HP-Border-Color-Altered/352368130786?hash=item520ac6fae2:g:nEsAAOSw8nxbBfFc&_sacat=0&_nkw=mtg white border sharpie&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0|0
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1X-Sol-Ring-Revised-Signed-by-Poole-Altered-to-Black-border-MTG-CARD/142821215747?hash=item2140cece03:g:QtwAAOSwJslbJIip&_sacat=0&_nkw=mtg Border Color Altered&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0
This is what you don't get. It's not that selling a reprint will decrease the value of the card. The reprint will increase in value, because it's black border.
And at what cost is wizards going to sell those booster packs. I know wizards said for years they don't follow the second market, but everything they do is based on the second market. Example: Force of will gets reprinted into a mystic (which has more value then the Alliances card). Why Mystic? Because the card's already has a second market value.
I made exactly the case on the last page why originals will still hold value:
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
At no point was/am I concerned with the value of a reprint. My whole point revolves around how a reprint effects older card values. That's whole point of the Reserved List, to preserve older cards value. Some people believe that reprinting Reserved List cards would cause a significant loss of value, and my position is that it wouldn't, in the long term.
A dual land that gets reprinted, with it's shiny black boarder, could possibly reach values of Revised versions, but they'd never be anywhere near the price of an Alpha, Beta, or Unlimited. And if the print run were small enough, they could even exceed the prices of Revised.
I don't see reprinting a dual lands is going to help formats such as Legacy, Vintage and Commander. Because these cards will be worth 200 to 500 dollars from opening a booster pack. This is the reality that I'm addressing. Wizards know that those cards are going to be 'money cards' in the second market. They allowed reprinting of Force of Will as mystics, not to step on the toes of those that spent 100 dollars on the original Force of Will, but it still dont allow access to newer players, especially those that would like to be a playset for 20 dollars!
I do believe wizards can go around the reserve list by making NEW dual lands, or make the new dual lands legendary lands that's only legal to Legacy, Vintage and Commander. And they can do that during the printing of Commander decks. But they don't. Why? Maybe wizards wants to push out dual for shock lands, maybe they know that commander boxes will sell out quickly, or maybe they need to add 40 more dollars to the cost of the commander decks.
The only time the reserve list is going to be dropped, is if Wizards of the Coast is bought out by some other company and that company removes the reserve list.
Maybe it's would be better that card shops could make their own proxies and rent them to players...
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Wouldn't that be virtually guaranteed to kill modern as it currently exists? It would be modern in name only, as cards like Force of Will etc showed up.
Amen brother, get the word out
we need format bypassing cards
Edit: I might add the detail of "They could take all the crazy stuff from legacy that isn't RL and just transplant those cards into modern/Eternal-legal only products"
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
They kill modern as it exists all the time. Modern was different before BFZ dropped, it was different after Fatal push, and it changed again with ixalan. Now it has changed because of Dominaria. Modern needs more creative freedom that commander enjoys and Battlebond instead of being a slave to standard.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!