Although I'm against the RL, I can accept keeping it forever as long the following issues are resolved.
Stop having Legacy's sanctioned tournaments at all. Look at the current Pro Tour. Even professional players bring subpar decks to Legacy because getting the cards is really hard and impossible on some countries. It makes no sense to make players play a format for which the cards aren't available anymore and haven't been available for more than a decade. Let people run their unofficial tournaments if they want it but do not force people to go through them for official competitive ones.
Do not extend the logic of the RL to any other cards of formats. The RL is a set policy on certain cards. Any other cards are off its grasp and there's not a need to enforce any no reprint policy on them. Let people who want collectibility or price assurance feast on the RL cards while keeping on the reprints of Modern-Pauper-Commander cards to keep the supply since there has never been neither a promise or a contractual obligation to print those only once.
To the non-reserve list people, should I just not sink 7-8k of my money into magic?
If my spending 7-8k of cash into the magic market is just going to raise card prices, then it makes it less financially accessible for the rest of you right?
Let's look at my spending when it comes to modern staples, because some of you have complained about that too? This is the logic I see. 1. Wizards reprints have not kept up with Modern demand and prices of entry still remains high. 2. If I'm not going to play, then I shouldn't buy staples because it's just going to jack up prices for everyone.
That's the absolute bottom line. End of story. Non-players shouldn't buy magic. Period.
It makes the game more expensive for who magic was really meant for, the players.
That's the argument right? I used to a be a player. But now I'm in my 30s I dont have as much time to play.
It sounds like, I have no business buying magic cards, holding onto cards that I'm not playing with.
To the non-reserve list people, should I just not sink 7-8k of my money into magic?
If my spending 7-8k of cash into the magic market is just going to raise card prices, then it makes it less financially accessible for the rest of you right?
Let's look at my spending when it comes to modern staples, because some of you have complained about that too? This is the logic I see. 1. Wizards reprints have not kept up with Modern demand and prices of entry still remains high. 2. If I'm not going to play, then I shouldn't buy staples because it's just going to jack up prices for everyone.
That's the absolute bottom line. End of story. Non-players shouldn't buy magic. Period.
It makes the game more expensive for who magic was really meant for, the players.
That's the argument right? I used to a be a player. But now I'm in my 30s I dont have as much time to play.
It sounds like, I have no business buying magic cards, holding onto cards that I'm not playing with.
Nah, you're free to expend your money into the cards, regardless of what you do with them.
Just don't expect Wizards to have any obligation to you and the money you have spent buying them from the secondary market. They reprint the cards and they lose their value, your loss and yours alone.
Expect being called on it if you start saying that the reprints that are bad for your finances are bad for the majority of the players, the format or the game. Magic is a primarily a game to be played, seeing it as an investment is a perception created by some people, that wasn't ever intended or expressed as such by the creators of the game.
This is what should have been told to the people that god mad over Chronicles, but whatever, let's keep that on the past so long as it doesn't happen again regarding any other cards.
The problem right now is that wizards has even less of a reason to undo the reserved list to day than a year ago. The entire idea behind masters sets were to cash in on high demand cards in order to make more money. They tried doing this repeatedly for years and eroded peoples confidence in the market prices for rare cards, causing prices to slowly drop. Then when they messed up on two masters sets in a row, it caused a massive drop in confidence that wizards would even reprint anything people needed and put the market into a buying frenzy, spiking prices all over the place.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Any dual land that can be fetched by fetch lands untapped has to have some drawback like the shocklands.. or they will be much better than the originaL duals...
Is WoTC not allowed to make better dual lands by the Reserved list?
I think that the closest possible dual is this: When it enters the battlefield, you lose 1 life. What drawback is smaller than losing 1 life, one time only?
Or this: As long as this land is on the battlefield, it is both types.
But both are way too good for standard and modern.
My other idea of losing and gaining life is unprintable because it's just stupid to make a card that triggers iself for nothing.
So let's talk about what Wizards is allowed to do because people have touched on it.
Lesser Underground Sea. Counts as Island and Swamp.
When Lesser Underground Sea ETBs Lose one life
Greater Underground Sea. Counts as Island and Swamp.
When Greater Underground Sea ETBs gain one life
Wizards is allowed to do both by way of reprint. Neither of these cards are functional reprints. It's a way for Wizards to keep their promise and bring down prices. But here's the problem, as others have mentioned. Both of these are on a level of power that would change magic.
If Wizards were to make "Lesser Underground Seas" Modern legal, they basically paint themselves in a corner. There's no point in reprinting shocklands anymore. All the other Mana-Fixers become junk. Painlands would become a complete joke. Finally, once they print basically the most powerful mana fixer they could without outright reprinting Duals, then what? They're going to keep reprinting Lesser duals until the end of time? What other mana fixer could they reprint?
What about Greater Underground Sea.
This is even more stupid.
One of the things to keep in mind about the reserve list, is that it's not just about money. It's also about the power level of the cards.
Wizards has slowed the game of magic down for the good of the game. It's good because the game is vibrant and interactive. Turn 5 and Turn 6 cards get a chance to see the light of day. The "eternal" format Modern has a turn four kill clock. It's not a bad place to be.
It's not like Wizards can just go reprint these cards. How would that work? Is wizards going to reprint Ancestral recall and make it modern legal?
I suppose they could do a masters set again, but at this point, Vintage and Legacy isn't where the actions at. And neither vintage or legacy are the future of magic.
The future of magic is a slower, more interactive format, where bad cards have a chance of seeing playing, where new players don't get crushed immediately. The power level of the reserve list cards are called "broken" for a reason. They literally break the game, contorting it into a much faster, less interactive format, where a smaller set of cards are viable. The power level of the reserve list cards are incompatible with this. It's why they were banned ages ago.
The RL should probably stay, but wotc should not have locked the mechanical aspects in with the cards and should have banned all RL from legacy play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
As you can see, most of these green cards able to destroy lands cost 4 mana. All of the ones that cost more have an upside on top of being able to destroy a land, and the only one in this list that costs less than 4 has a downside (can only hit swamps), just like Kudzu costs less than 4 and has a downside (your opponent can put it on one of your lands).
Now, in old magic there are green land destruction cards that cost less than 4 and don't have downsides (Ice Storm and Winter's Grasp for example, and Thermokarst even costs 3 and has an upside), or cost 4+ and have a downside (Chain of Acid), but that's not true of modern magic and it's not true of Kudzu.
Ignoring the issue of the RL, the primary reason Kudzu wouldn't see a reprint is because Wizards doesn't like printing land destruction generally, not because Kudzu is too cheap or out of color pie.
Any dual land that can be fetched by fetch lands untapped has to have some drawback like the shocklands.. or they will be much better than the originaL duals...
Is WoTC not allowed to make better dual lands by the Reserved list?
No that's the thing. Wizards is allowed to make cards better than what's on the reserve list.
It would crush the price of reserve list cards. And it wouldn't violate the reserve list at all.
As you can see, most of these green cards able to destroy lands cost 4 mana. All of the ones that cost more have an upside on top of being able to destroy a land, and the only one in this list that costs less than 4 has a downside (can only hit swamps), just like Kudzu costs less than 4 and has a downside (your opponent can put it on one of your lands).
Now, in old magic there are green land destruction cards that cost less than 4 and don't have downsides (Ice Storm and Winter's Grasp for example, and Thermokarst even costs 3 and has an upside), or cost 4+ and have a downside (Chain of Acid), but that's not true of modern magic and it's not true of Kudzu.
Ignoring the issue of the RL, the primary reason Kudzu wouldn't see a reprint is because Wizards doesn't like printing land destruction generally, not because Kudzu is too cheap or out of color pie.
Any dual land that can be fetched by fetch lands untapped has to have some drawback like the shocklands.. or they will be much better than the originaL duals...
Is WoTC not allowed to make better dual lands by the Reserved list?
No that's the thing. Wizards is allowed to make cards better than what's on the reserve list.
It would crush the price of reserve list cards. And it wouldn't violate the reserve list at all.
But making something strictly better than the ABU duals would be bad for the game.
Right, notice how all the mana costs are 4 or greater. Wizards doesn't have a problem with Land Destruction at cmc 4 or higher. It's the LD cards that can be played turn 3 on curve that appear to be off limits. They did a couple in the early days of modern like Rain of Tears, but after a certain point they just put it all higher up. They favor things like Demolish now rather than Molten Rain.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also, while I'm sure idSurge had some tongue in cheek in mind with the frontier comment, the very argument being implied does apply to the idea of no reserved list eternal formats. I think just having one eternal format where all RL cards are banned is correct. However, the change doesn't inherently solve accessibility: that issue is caused by the top 5% (or however much of the population are pro players) pushing the purchasing decisions of the majority and creating statically "good choice" purchases. Wizards cant support formats that hinge their very existence off a distinct subset of cards. That doesn't mean they won't cash in on them from time to time, though.
Also, this is not the same as a stagnant format: this is referring to all decks of a format having a subset of the same cards.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The problem right now is that wizards has even less of a reason to undo the reserved list to day than a year ago. The entire idea behind masters sets were to cash in on high demand cards in order to make more money. They tried doing this repeatedly for years and eroded peoples confidence in the market prices for rare cards, causing prices to slowly drop. Then when they messed up on two masters sets in a row, it caused a massive drop in confidence that wizards would even reprint anything people needed and put the market into a buying frenzy, spiking prices all over the place.
If that had been true, they wouldn't have filled the masters set with mostly chaff cards that noone in their right mind care about and that are valued very low. Had they really intended to use the master sets to print desirable cards, they would have printed some of the expensive modern and legacy/vintage cards in the last two masters set. But instead of doing that, they printed cards that the majority of the target audience doesn't care about, because "they wanted to make a good draft experience", well, the draft experience was bad. The only time in the last four years where WotC actually reprinted value cards that people care about was in Battlebond.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
The problem right now is that wizards has even less of a reason to undo the reserved list to day than a year ago. The entire idea behind masters sets were to cash in on high demand cards in order to make more money. They tried doing this repeatedly for years and eroded peoples confidence in the market prices for rare cards, causing prices to slowly drop. Then when they messed up on two masters sets in a row, it caused a massive drop in confidence that wizards would even reprint anything people needed and put the market into a buying frenzy, spiking prices all over the place.
If that had been true, they wouldn't have filled the masters set with mostly chaff cards that noone in their right mind care about and that are valued very low. Had they really intended to use the master sets to print desirable cards, they would have printed some of the expensive modern and legacy/vintage cards in the last two masters set. But instead of doing that, they printed cards that the majority of the target audience doesn't care about, because "they wanted to make a good draft experience", well, the draft experience was bad. The only time in the last four years where WotC actually reprinted value cards that people care about was in Battlebond.
IN BATTLEBOND LIES THE SOLUTION - FORMAT BYPASSING CARDS
The problem right now is that wizards has even less of a reason to undo the reserved list to day than a year ago. The entire idea behind masters sets were to cash in on high demand cards in order to make more money. They tried doing this repeatedly for years and eroded peoples confidence in the market prices for rare cards, causing prices to slowly drop. Then when they messed up on two masters sets in a row, it caused a massive drop in confidence that wizards would even reprint anything people needed and put the market into a buying frenzy, spiking prices all over the place.
If that had been true, they wouldn't have filled the masters set with mostly chaff cards that noone in their right mind care about and that are valued very low. Had they really intended to use the master sets to print desirable cards, they would have printed some of the expensive modern and legacy/vintage cards in the last two masters set. But instead of doing that, they printed cards that the majority of the target audience doesn't care about, because "they wanted to make a good draft experience", well, the draft experience was bad. The only time in the last four years where WotC actually reprinted value cards that people care about was in Battlebond.
IN BATTLEBOND LIES THE SOLUTION - FORMAT BYPASSING CARDS
Precisely. It remains to be seen if WotC learned their lesson with Battlebond compared to Masters sets. But sadly, I do not have high hopes that they did.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Right, notice how all the mana costs are 4 or greater. Wizards doesn't have a problem with Land Destruction at cmc 4 or higher. It's the LD cards that can be played turn 3 on curve that appear to be off limits. They did a couple in the early days of modern like Rain of Tears, but after a certain point they just put it all higher up. They favor things like Demolish now rather than Molten Rain.
You completely ignored my point. Land destruction on modern green cards is costed at 4 mana if there's no particular upside or downside. Additional upsides make it cost more, and downsides like what Kudzu has can make it cost less.
Additionally, you claimed that land destruction is outside of green's color pie, when that's clearly wrong even in modern Magic.
Right, notice how all the mana costs are 4 or greater. Wizards doesn't have a problem with Land Destruction at cmc 4 or higher. It's the LD cards that can be played turn 3 on curve that appear to be off limits. They did a couple in the early days of modern like Rain of Tears, but after a certain point they just put it all higher up. They favor things like Demolish now rather than Molten Rain.
You completely ignored my point. Land destruction on modern green cards is costed at 4 mana if there's no particular upside or downside. Additional upsides make it cost more, and downsides like what Kudzu has can make it cost less.
Additionally, you claimed that land destruction is outside of green's color pie, when that's clearly wrong even in modern Magic.
Actually, you are right. It's kind of easy to miss because stuff like Beasts Within say "Target Permanent" and other cards say "non-something permanent", but it's there. GR Ponza runs 4x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss.
If it sounds like I'm dancing around your point, it's more so because seeing a list with something like Angel of Despair is off putting, since those cards are finishers more than utility. They destroy lands, but it happens so late in the game that it's not serving the kind of purpose that 3 mana land destruction served.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So YouTuber Law got a question from someone on Twitter regarding whether or not If the Reserved List enforceable under the legal doctrine of promissory estoppel? Promissory estoppel is a legal doctrine where one party makes a promise to another party that they reasonably and detrimentally relies upon, which creates an equitable obligation to enforce the promise. The parties in question regarding this situation are Wizards of the Coast who popularized the Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game gaming genre with Magic: The Gathering and Hasbro whose the world's largest toy manufacturer in terms of stock market value.
To answer that question we have to figure out as to whether or not If there was a legal contract or whether If both parties at Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro negotiated for some written instrument that we can rely upon. How should we look at this Reprint Policy? What does it mean to us If these cards were bought as part of a digital download for digital cards? Things would be a little different compared to the U.S. Supreme Court verdict prohibiting Online Loot Crate purchases for buyers under 21 years of age.
Every time we buy digital product we are signatory to some sort of End-user license agreement (EULA), a terms of service, basically a license under which we acquire certain ownership or usage rights in that digital product. You could even argue that this Reprint Policy would be an addendum, an exhibit, or an amendment to that EULA or terms of service and as an end result we could hold them liable for violation of that Reprint Policy in accordance with an agreement. So we could actually then sue for breach of contract.
The only difference here is that these weren't sold as Digital products but Paper products. If they're sold in stores they may be sold online however they aren't being sold as Digital products when they're being sold as Paper products and as such we don't sign an agreement when we buy it. So there's really nothing for us to attach the Reprint Policy toward. We definitely didn't sign this Reprint Policy, the company didn't sign it, so we can't say that's a contract in itself unless there's substantial proof that a contract was signed between both parties at Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro.
Furthermore we don't really have a contract in which to attach it toward however that doesn't mean the answer ends there when there's a quasi-contract which is basically an implied contract. It means that a federal court can take a look at things and the event it took place saying that, "Even though neither party (being Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro) intended there to be a contract, these parties knew that there needed to be a contract imposed here." So you're probably wondering as to why this is the case.
It's because that due to the way that it was bargained, in the actions of the player, If we don't impose a contract then one party will benefit at the expense of another where as one gets hurt for the benefit of the other. So as a result we need to impose either a quasi-contract or an implied contract depending on how you look at it. However that's one thing we can take a look at as to whether or not through our interaction If there was an implied contract. The idea being that especially after the first time they posted that policy with no relation to any cards bought before the policy was ever issued.
Cards that were bought right after Wizards of the Coast issued their Reprint Policy with the Reserved List in 1996 were being purchased with prior knowledge of that Reprint Policy or at least there was that availability of that policy meaning that when I'm purchasing cards from Wizards of the Coast I know that they truly understand the value of the Secondary Market, they know that something is valuable, and they know that whatever card choices they make directly effects the Secondary Market and I'm purchasing these cards subject to knowledge of that.
So there is a result you can argue to a federal court that there is a quasi-contract here which needs to be enforced and as a result when they fail to meet their end of the bargain by reprinting cards off of the Reserved List for over 20 years, that would in fact be a breach of that implied contract or quasi-contract. So that's one claim, one cause of action that can be claimed. What about in the case of fraud? Can you claim fraud in the transaction itself? Now what exactly is the basis for fraud?
In order to establish a cause of action for fraud we must prove that Wizards of the Coast: 1) knowingly made material false representation 2) they intended to defraud us as consumers 3) that we relied on that material false representation 4) as a result we suffered losses. Now the difficulty with that is that we would have to prove that Wizards of the Coast had some foreknowledge of the falsehood regarding their Reprint Policy. That they knew when they were publishing all those policies while also revising them that it was actually false since they had no intention of ever living up to that policy.
So in order for Wizards of the Coast to benefit themselves by encouraging their consumers to buy Reserved List cards, they kept providing that policy, talking about it over and over while it ended up being false. That's very difficult to believe unless there was some sort of conspiracy within Wizards of the Coast where you can do the research by uncovering some of that information, so that's highly unlikely. So it's kind of a shot in the dark to believe that we can go after fraud unless they purposely allowed Reserved List counterfeits to circulate the Secondary Market.
The next one is going to be deceptive trade practices, effectively that what they did was provide misleading advertisement. In order to state this type of claim you would have to prove that this was a consumer-oriented product that is materially misleading and that the plaintiff suffered injuries as a result of an allegedly deceptive act or practice. So effectively what we're saying is that this was false advertisement. No business may make false, misleading, or deceptive claims about a product that they're promoting.
Wizards of the Coast gave us all that information about their Reprint Policy in order to encourage us to buy their product but it was completely false because that product didn't have those attributes. They never originally intended to actually adhere to them and for that matter maybe they did but they changed their minds completely. In other words we bought this product under false pretenses which fall under false advertisement and claims made by Wizards of the Coast and as a result we now suffered losses because we relied on that specifically.
We wanted those valuable cards, we wanted those limited cards, we went out in bottom, sought after them, collected them, retained them, kept them in our vault. We knew what we we're buying and we were buying assets. They made us believe that over two decades worth of policies that they deceived us and as a result we suffered damages. So yes we can actually claim promissory estoppel as well. So in order to establish a claim for promissory estoppel, it must be shown that the defendant made a clear and unambiguous promise upon which the plaintiff reasonably relied to his or her detriment.
So If Wizards of the Coast does decide to abolish the Reserved List in order to reprint those cards would we have evidence of a reliance upon a promise? Yes. Was it clear that it would be unambiguous? Absolutely given the policies, revisions, articles, and blog posts they officially provided. Not only do we know exactly what they mean by their Reprint Policy but we also know their motivation behind it. We know that they knew that their actions effect the Secondary Market and they created the Reserved List in order to support the Secondary Market.
They knew people would invest into it for the long-term and they wanted to encourage it since they knew that players were hurt by it. When they make those changes the value of those Reserved List cards will drop while some will go up so they wanted to maintain value because they were worried that at the end of the day that it's going to significantly impact their card sales. If they don't trust the fact that these Reserved List cards are limited edition then why am I going after them? Why would there be any value in those cards outside of playable value?
Sure these reprinted Reserved List cards would have playable value but If you're going to encourage people to buy it for something other than the game itself then you've got to acknowledge the value in the Secondary Market. That's where the promises were clear, unambiguous, and continuous over years and years. That would be an interesting case though I highly doubt Wizards of the Coast would do it since they're still legally bound to Hasbro unless both companies are actually going to cut ties in 2020 when Magic Arena kicks off.
I hope If nothing else they'll ask the general counsel at Hasbro and they will be told not to do that since it wouldn't make any sense. Whatever gains Wizards of the Coast thinks they can get away with regardless If it's reprints or some valuable cards they will lose because they've personally alienated so much of their player/collector base to the point where Magic cards would be much less collectible and that they would end up facing a class-action lawsuit. They've managed to avoid the Magic Judge Lawsuit from a few years ago while staying silent about Card Stock Quality in order to avoid another one.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I asked on the podcast, but there are a few problems with the legal arguments:
1: Wizards of the Coast does not sell single cards. They sell lottery packs. Any single card anyone has ever bought has been through a third party, and WotC was not involved in that transaction in any way.
2: The Reprint Policy has already ben changed, with 2 significant revisions and at least one minor one, since its inception. None of those revisions were challenged, implying that the Reprint Policy is just that: a company policy, and subject to change with or without notice.
3: Cards formerly on the Reserve List have in fact already been reprinted, and again this went unchallenged. If it went unchallenged 15 years ago, trying to claim now that the promise is intact is rather sketchy.
I love the YouTuber law channel, but I think he missed some important points in his breakdown, specifically that single card sales are completely out of WotC's control. WotC simply can't be held responsible, legally, for what third-party sellers do, or for what someone using a third-party service pays for.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Step 1: Print cards that are similar in power and effect to all relevant Reserved List cards (like the dual lands). These cannot be functional reprints but WotC can make cards that are on a similar power scale.
Step 2: Loudly state that WotC will never, ever reprint a Reserved List card ever again.
Step 3; Ban all Reserved List cards from all formats citing the fact that the Reserved List is a huge detriment to several popular Magic formats, preventing the formats from growing and evolving.
This is the easiest way to solve this problem. It preserves the secondary market value of all Reserved List cards and it removes any and all impetus that might nudge WotC to changing, altering or eliminating the Reserved List. This also ensures that those with Reserved List cards cannot "double dip" with the Reserved List cards and the newly-printed replacement cards.
You all need to realize that the reserved list nothing to do with players and collectors, not even stores or “investors”. The reserved list policy is not a contract, these groups have no cause of promisary estoppel.
The reserved list is there to protect early artist, contributors, and people that invested in WOTC. These people were often given product as part of their compensation, with the promise that if it accrued value, the company would do all it could to maintain that value. Some of these people may still even be with WOTC.
If WOTC were to renege on the reserved list these people would have a case.
What boggles my mind is that no one seems to get this. Everyone is so focused on the rift between collectors/investors and players, on people being able to bring a class action law suit against WOTC. Collectors, investors, and players are not even considerations. Why does WOTC remain so tight lipped about it, because it’s a self serving policy. As long as the public is yammering on with a false narrative WOTC is free to not have to bother with it.
You all need to realize that the reserved list nothing to do with players and collectors, not even stores or “investors”. The reserved list policy is not a contract, these groups have no cause of promisary estoppel.
The reserved list is there to protect early artist, contributors, and people that invested in WOTC. These people were often given product as part of their compensation, with the promise that if it accrued value, the company would do all it could to maintain that value. Some of these people may still even be with WOTC.
If WOTC were to renege on the reserved list these people would have a case.
What boggles my mind is that no one seems to get this. Everyone is so focused on the rift between collectors/investors and players, on people being able to bring a class action law suit against WOTC. Collectors, investors, and players are not even considerations. Why does WOTC remain so tight lipped about it, because it’s a self serving policy. As long as the public is yammering on with a false narrative WOTC is free to not have to bother with it.
Spot on.
Everyone needs to stop wasting eachother's time with discussion about a subject that will not change. The reserve list is here to stay people!
Now let's get on with having a conversation that will actually mean a damn and talk about what we need to do for the future!!!!!!! We need to get behind a realistic agenda to make Magic's future better. Talking about abolishing the RL and this promissory estoppel bull***** is a waste of our time!
Format bypassing cards is an agenda that will get us what we desire for Eternal formats, get on this train people!
You all need to realize that the reserved list nothing to do with players and collectors, not even stores or “investors”. The reserved list policy is not a contract, these groups have no cause of promisary estoppel.
The reserved list is there to protect early artist, contributors, and people that invested in WOTC. These people were often given product as part of their compensation, with the promise that if it accrued value, the company would do all it could to maintain that value. Some of these people may still even be with WOTC.
Question: if WOTC supported legacy play through online clients in a way that was accessible to most devices, like the plan is for Arena, would that end the debate?
You all need to realize that the reserved list nothing to do with players and collectors, not even stores or “investors”. The reserved list policy is not a contract, these groups have no cause of promisary estoppel.
The reserved list is there to protect early artist, contributors, and people that invested in WOTC. These people were often given product as part of their compensation, with the promise that if it accrued value, the company would do all it could to maintain that value. Some of these people may still even be with WOTC.
If WOTC were to renege on the reserved list these people would have a case.
What boggles my mind is that no one seems to get this. Everyone is so focused on the rift between collectors/investors and players, on people being able to bring a class action law suit against WOTC. Collectors, investors, and players are not even considerations. Why does WOTC remain so tight lipped about it, because it’s a self serving policy. As long as the public is yammering on with a false narrative WOTC is free to not have to bother with it.
Let me make this clear. A BGS 10 alpha mox jet is worth around 25 grand. There are people with a lot of money in slabbed cards in the range of half a million or more dollars. Do you think these people will not spend a ludicrous amount of money in legal fees?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Stop having Legacy's sanctioned tournaments at all. Look at the current Pro Tour. Even professional players bring subpar decks to Legacy because getting the cards is really hard and impossible on some countries. It makes no sense to make players play a format for which the cards aren't available anymore and haven't been available for more than a decade. Let people run their unofficial tournaments if they want it but do not force people to go through them for official competitive ones.
Do not extend the logic of the RL to any other cards of formats. The RL is a set policy on certain cards. Any other cards are off its grasp and there's not a need to enforce any no reprint policy on them. Let people who want collectibility or price assurance feast on the RL cards while keeping on the reprints of Modern-Pauper-Commander cards to keep the supply since there has never been neither a promise or a contractual obligation to print those only once.
To the non-reserve list people, should I just not sink 7-8k of my money into magic?
If my spending 7-8k of cash into the magic market is just going to raise card prices, then it makes it less financially accessible for the rest of you right?
Let's look at my spending when it comes to modern staples, because some of you have complained about that too? This is the logic I see.
1. Wizards reprints have not kept up with Modern demand and prices of entry still remains high.
2. If I'm not going to play, then I shouldn't buy staples because it's just going to jack up prices for everyone.
That's the absolute bottom line. End of story.
Non-players shouldn't buy magic. Period.
It makes the game more expensive for who magic was really meant for, the players.
That's the argument right? I used to a be a player. But now I'm in my 30s I dont have as much time to play.
It sounds like, I have no business buying magic cards, holding onto cards that I'm not playing with.
Nah, you're free to expend your money into the cards, regardless of what you do with them.
Just don't expect Wizards to have any obligation to you and the money you have spent buying them from the secondary market. They reprint the cards and they lose their value, your loss and yours alone.
Expect being called on it if you start saying that the reprints that are bad for your finances are bad for the majority of the players, the format or the game. Magic is a primarily a game to be played, seeing it as an investment is a perception created by some people, that wasn't ever intended or expressed as such by the creators of the game.
This is what should have been told to the people that god mad over Chronicles, but whatever, let's keep that on the past so long as it doesn't happen again regarding any other cards.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think that the closest possible dual is this: When it enters the battlefield, you lose 1 life. What drawback is smaller than losing 1 life, one time only?
Or this: As long as this land is on the battlefield, it is both types.
But both are way too good for standard and modern.
My other idea of losing and gaining life is unprintable because it's just stupid to make a card that triggers iself for nothing.
Lesser Underground Sea. Counts as Island and Swamp.
When Lesser Underground Sea ETBs Lose one life
Greater Underground Sea. Counts as Island and Swamp.
When Greater Underground Sea ETBs gain one life
Wizards is allowed to do both by way of reprint. Neither of these cards are functional reprints. It's a way for Wizards to keep their promise and bring down prices. But here's the problem, as others have mentioned. Both of these are on a level of power that would change magic.
If Wizards were to make "Lesser Underground Seas" Modern legal, they basically paint themselves in a corner. There's no point in reprinting shocklands anymore. All the other Mana-Fixers become junk. Painlands would become a complete joke. Finally, once they print basically the most powerful mana fixer they could without outright reprinting Duals, then what? They're going to keep reprinting Lesser duals until the end of time? What other mana fixer could they reprint?
What about Greater Underground Sea.
This is even more stupid.
One of the things to keep in mind about the reserve list, is that it's not just about money. It's also about the power level of the cards.
Wizards has slowed the game of magic down for the good of the game. It's good because the game is vibrant and interactive. Turn 5 and Turn 6 cards get a chance to see the light of day. The "eternal" format Modern has a turn four kill clock. It's not a bad place to be.
It's not like Wizards can just go reprint these cards. How would that work? Is wizards going to reprint Ancestral recall and make it modern legal?
I suppose they could do a masters set again, but at this point, Vintage and Legacy isn't where the actions at. And neither vintage or legacy are the future of magic.
The future of magic is a slower, more interactive format, where bad cards have a chance of seeing playing, where new players don't get crushed immediately. The power level of the reserve list cards are called "broken" for a reason. They literally break the game, contorting it into a much faster, less interactive format, where a smaller set of cards are viable. The power level of the reserve list cards are incompatible with this. It's why they were banned ages ago.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
- Acidic Slime (5 mana, with a 2/2 deathtouch body)
- Bramblecrush (4 mana)
- Creeping Mold (4 mana)
- Desecration Plague (4 mana)
- Destructor Dragon (6 mana, with a 4/4 flying body)
- Feast of Worms (5 mana, with potential for hitting two lands)
- Marshdrinker Giant (5 mana, with a 4/3 body, only hits islands and swamps)
- Mold Shambler (6 mana, with a 3/3 body)
- Mwonvuli Acid-Moss (4 mana, also ramps)
- Nessian Demolok (5 mana, with a 3/3 body)
- Rain of Thorns (6 mana, can pick all three modes)
- Reap and Sow (4 mana, or 6 mana to do both modes)
- Reclaiming Vines (4 mana)
- Rolling Soil (4 mana, can also shrink all creatures)
- Rootgrapple (5 mana, instant, with potential to cantrip)
- Spreading Algae (1 mana, relf-recurs, only hits swamps)
- Sylvan Primordial (7 mana, hits each poonents, also ramps, with a 6/8 reach body)
- Terastodon (8 mana, hits up to three targets, with a 9/9 body, compensates for destruction with 3/3 tokens)
- Woodfall Primus (8 mana, persist, with a 6/6 trample body)
As you can see, most of these green cards able to destroy lands cost 4 mana. All of the ones that cost more have an upside on top of being able to destroy a land, and the only one in this list that costs less than 4 has a downside (can only hit swamps), just like Kudzu costs less than 4 and has a downside (your opponent can put it on one of your lands).Now, in old magic there are green land destruction cards that cost less than 4 and don't have downsides (Ice Storm and Winter's Grasp for example, and Thermokarst even costs 3 and has an upside), or cost 4+ and have a downside (Chain of Acid), but that's not true of modern magic and it's not true of Kudzu.
Ignoring the issue of the RL, the primary reason Kudzu wouldn't see a reprint is because Wizards doesn't like printing land destruction generally, not because Kudzu is too cheap or out of color pie.
It's true that Wizards can make something strictly better than a card on the RL. And they have; compare Wood Elemental (on the RL) to Duntless Dourbark or Dungrove Elder.
But making something strictly better than the ABU duals would be bad for the game.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Right, notice how all the mana costs are 4 or greater. Wizards doesn't have a problem with Land Destruction at cmc 4 or higher. It's the LD cards that can be played turn 3 on curve that appear to be off limits. They did a couple in the early days of modern like Rain of Tears, but after a certain point they just put it all higher up. They favor things like Demolish now rather than Molten Rain.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also, this is not the same as a stagnant format: this is referring to all decks of a format having a subset of the same cards.
General format interest is a problem as well.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If that had been true, they wouldn't have filled the masters set with mostly chaff cards that noone in their right mind care about and that are valued very low. Had they really intended to use the master sets to print desirable cards, they would have printed some of the expensive modern and legacy/vintage cards in the last two masters set. But instead of doing that, they printed cards that the majority of the target audience doesn't care about, because "they wanted to make a good draft experience", well, the draft experience was bad. The only time in the last four years where WotC actually reprinted value cards that people care about was in Battlebond.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
IN BATTLEBOND LIES THE SOLUTION - FORMAT BYPASSING CARDS
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
Precisely. It remains to be seen if WotC learned their lesson with Battlebond compared to Masters sets. But sadly, I do not have high hopes that they did.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Additionally, you claimed that land destruction is outside of green's color pie, when that's clearly wrong even in modern Magic.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Actually, you are right. It's kind of easy to miss because stuff like Beasts Within say "Target Permanent" and other cards say "non-something permanent", but it's there. GR Ponza runs 4x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss.
If it sounds like I'm dancing around your point, it's more so because seeing a list with something like Angel of Despair is off putting, since those cards are finishers more than utility. They destroy lands, but it happens so late in the game that it's not serving the kind of purpose that 3 mana land destruction served.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To answer that question we have to figure out as to whether or not If there was a legal contract or whether If both parties at Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro negotiated for some written instrument that we can rely upon. How should we look at this Reprint Policy? What does it mean to us If these cards were bought as part of a digital download for digital cards? Things would be a little different compared to the U.S. Supreme Court verdict prohibiting Online Loot Crate purchases for buyers under 21 years of age.
Every time we buy digital product we are signatory to some sort of End-user license agreement (EULA), a terms of service, basically a license under which we acquire certain ownership or usage rights in that digital product. You could even argue that this Reprint Policy would be an addendum, an exhibit, or an amendment to that EULA or terms of service and as an end result we could hold them liable for violation of that Reprint Policy in accordance with an agreement. So we could actually then sue for breach of contract.
The only difference here is that these weren't sold as Digital products but Paper products. If they're sold in stores they may be sold online however they aren't being sold as Digital products when they're being sold as Paper products and as such we don't sign an agreement when we buy it. So there's really nothing for us to attach the Reprint Policy toward. We definitely didn't sign this Reprint Policy, the company didn't sign it, so we can't say that's a contract in itself unless there's substantial proof that a contract was signed between both parties at Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro.
Furthermore we don't really have a contract in which to attach it toward however that doesn't mean the answer ends there when there's a quasi-contract which is basically an implied contract. It means that a federal court can take a look at things and the event it took place saying that, "Even though neither party (being Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro) intended there to be a contract, these parties knew that there needed to be a contract imposed here." So you're probably wondering as to why this is the case.
It's because that due to the way that it was bargained, in the actions of the player, If we don't impose a contract then one party will benefit at the expense of another where as one gets hurt for the benefit of the other. So as a result we need to impose either a quasi-contract or an implied contract depending on how you look at it. However that's one thing we can take a look at as to whether or not through our interaction If there was an implied contract. The idea being that especially after the first time they posted that policy with no relation to any cards bought before the policy was ever issued.
Cards that were bought right after Wizards of the Coast issued their Reprint Policy with the Reserved List in 1996 were being purchased with prior knowledge of that Reprint Policy or at least there was that availability of that policy meaning that when I'm purchasing cards from Wizards of the Coast I know that they truly understand the value of the Secondary Market, they know that something is valuable, and they know that whatever card choices they make directly effects the Secondary Market and I'm purchasing these cards subject to knowledge of that.
So there is a result you can argue to a federal court that there is a quasi-contract here which needs to be enforced and as a result when they fail to meet their end of the bargain by reprinting cards off of the Reserved List for over 20 years, that would in fact be a breach of that implied contract or quasi-contract. So that's one claim, one cause of action that can be claimed. What about in the case of fraud? Can you claim fraud in the transaction itself? Now what exactly is the basis for fraud?
In order to establish a cause of action for fraud we must prove that Wizards of the Coast: 1) knowingly made material false representation 2) they intended to defraud us as consumers 3) that we relied on that material false representation 4) as a result we suffered losses. Now the difficulty with that is that we would have to prove that Wizards of the Coast had some foreknowledge of the falsehood regarding their Reprint Policy. That they knew when they were publishing all those policies while also revising them that it was actually false since they had no intention of ever living up to that policy.
So in order for Wizards of the Coast to benefit themselves by encouraging their consumers to buy Reserved List cards, they kept providing that policy, talking about it over and over while it ended up being false. That's very difficult to believe unless there was some sort of conspiracy within Wizards of the Coast where you can do the research by uncovering some of that information, so that's highly unlikely. So it's kind of a shot in the dark to believe that we can go after fraud unless they purposely allowed Reserved List counterfeits to circulate the Secondary Market.
The next one is going to be deceptive trade practices, effectively that what they did was provide misleading advertisement. In order to state this type of claim you would have to prove that this was a consumer-oriented product that is materially misleading and that the plaintiff suffered injuries as a result of an allegedly deceptive act or practice. So effectively what we're saying is that this was false advertisement. No business may make false, misleading, or deceptive claims about a product that they're promoting.
Wizards of the Coast gave us all that information about their Reprint Policy in order to encourage us to buy their product but it was completely false because that product didn't have those attributes. They never originally intended to actually adhere to them and for that matter maybe they did but they changed their minds completely. In other words we bought this product under false pretenses which fall under false advertisement and claims made by Wizards of the Coast and as a result we now suffered losses because we relied on that specifically.
We wanted those valuable cards, we wanted those limited cards, we went out in bottom, sought after them, collected them, retained them, kept them in our vault. We knew what we we're buying and we were buying assets. They made us believe that over two decades worth of policies that they deceived us and as a result we suffered damages. So yes we can actually claim promissory estoppel as well. So in order to establish a claim for promissory estoppel, it must be shown that the defendant made a clear and unambiguous promise upon which the plaintiff reasonably relied to his or her detriment.
So If Wizards of the Coast does decide to abolish the Reserved List in order to reprint those cards would we have evidence of a reliance upon a promise? Yes. Was it clear that it would be unambiguous? Absolutely given the policies, revisions, articles, and blog posts they officially provided. Not only do we know exactly what they mean by their Reprint Policy but we also know their motivation behind it. We know that they knew that their actions effect the Secondary Market and they created the Reserved List in order to support the Secondary Market.
They knew people would invest into it for the long-term and they wanted to encourage it since they knew that players were hurt by it. When they make those changes the value of those Reserved List cards will drop while some will go up so they wanted to maintain value because they were worried that at the end of the day that it's going to significantly impact their card sales. If they don't trust the fact that these Reserved List cards are limited edition then why am I going after them? Why would there be any value in those cards outside of playable value?
Sure these reprinted Reserved List cards would have playable value but If you're going to encourage people to buy it for something other than the game itself then you've got to acknowledge the value in the Secondary Market. That's where the promises were clear, unambiguous, and continuous over years and years. That would be an interesting case though I highly doubt Wizards of the Coast would do it since they're still legally bound to Hasbro unless both companies are actually going to cut ties in 2020 when Magic Arena kicks off.
I hope If nothing else they'll ask the general counsel at Hasbro and they will be told not to do that since it wouldn't make any sense. Whatever gains Wizards of the Coast thinks they can get away with regardless If it's reprints or some valuable cards they will lose because they've personally alienated so much of their player/collector base to the point where Magic cards would be much less collectible and that they would end up facing a class-action lawsuit. They've managed to avoid the Magic Judge Lawsuit from a few years ago while staying silent about Card Stock Quality in order to avoid another one.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
1: Wizards of the Coast does not sell single cards. They sell lottery packs. Any single card anyone has ever bought has been through a third party, and WotC was not involved in that transaction in any way.
2: The Reprint Policy has already ben changed, with 2 significant revisions and at least one minor one, since its inception. None of those revisions were challenged, implying that the Reprint Policy is just that: a company policy, and subject to change with or without notice.
3: Cards formerly on the Reserve List have in fact already been reprinted, and again this went unchallenged. If it went unchallenged 15 years ago, trying to claim now that the promise is intact is rather sketchy.
I love the YouTuber law channel, but I think he missed some important points in his breakdown, specifically that single card sales are completely out of WotC's control. WotC simply can't be held responsible, legally, for what third-party sellers do, or for what someone using a third-party service pays for.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Step 2: Loudly state that WotC will never, ever reprint a Reserved List card ever again.
Step 3; Ban all Reserved List cards from all formats citing the fact that the Reserved List is a huge detriment to several popular Magic formats, preventing the formats from growing and evolving.
This is the easiest way to solve this problem. It preserves the secondary market value of all Reserved List cards and it removes any and all impetus that might nudge WotC to changing, altering or eliminating the Reserved List. This also ensures that those with Reserved List cards cannot "double dip" with the Reserved List cards and the newly-printed replacement cards.
The reserved list is there to protect early artist, contributors, and people that invested in WOTC. These people were often given product as part of their compensation, with the promise that if it accrued value, the company would do all it could to maintain that value. Some of these people may still even be with WOTC.
If WOTC were to renege on the reserved list these people would have a case.
What boggles my mind is that no one seems to get this. Everyone is so focused on the rift between collectors/investors and players, on people being able to bring a class action law suit against WOTC. Collectors, investors, and players are not even considerations. Why does WOTC remain so tight lipped about it, because it’s a self serving policy. As long as the public is yammering on with a false narrative WOTC is free to not have to bother with it.
Spot on.
Everyone needs to stop wasting eachother's time with discussion about a subject that will not change. The reserve list is here to stay people!
Now let's get on with having a conversation that will actually mean a damn and talk about what we need to do for the future!!!!!!! We need to get behind a realistic agenda to make Magic's future better. Talking about abolishing the RL and this promissory estoppel bull***** is a waste of our time!
Format bypassing cards is an agenda that will get us what we desire for Eternal formats, get on this train people!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
Do you have someway to back up your claim?
Let me make this clear. A BGS 10 alpha mox jet is worth around 25 grand. There are people with a lot of money in slabbed cards in the range of half a million or more dollars. Do you think these people will not spend a ludicrous amount of money in legal fees?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!