MTG Salvation

In a game where lands are the most important cards in every deck, duals are the most functional color-fixing lands outside of fetches, yet they are completely out of reach for 99% of players due to outrageous price tags because of scarcity and a promise they would not be reprinted.

That is not a good thing for magic.

Quote from Honor Basquiat »

There are about 600 cards on the Reserved List and over 20,000 unique cards that have been printed.

That means less than 3% of Magic cards are on the reserved list. Out of that 3%, many of the cards are really crappy cards like Thelonite Monk, Keeper of Tresserhorn, Fungus Elemental and Spirit Shield. Some of these are cards that are so bad, many players would actually complain if Wizards reprinted those cards.

You can't forget that it's not just reprints that are forbidden by the RL, it's also functional reprints. One of the cards on the RL is Thunder Spirit. A 2/2 flying first strike for 1WW would be a very good card to put into a lot of Limited environments, but they can't, because Thunder Spirit is on the RL. Instead, we're forced to have things like Razorfoot Griffin. 1 mana may not seem like much, but it can make a world of difference in card balance.

Quote from Honor Basquiat »

I'm sorry some of you guys missed the boat on Legacy and Vintage. I guess it kind of sucks but you aren't being punished and Wizards doesn't have an obligation to help players enter dying unpopular formats. Besides there are plenty of other ways to play Magic that don't involve Wizards reprinting cards the majority of the player base don't enjoy playing with and that don't involve explicitly breaking a promise.

Cards like Tabernacle are such an outlier in formats like Commander it's hardly worth mentioning. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale isn't even played in 1/10th of 1% of Commander decks.

They do have the obligation if they are going to keep sanctioning Legacy and Vintage tournaments. Which is the point: since they are totally on board with the reserved list, backpedaling quickly each time it seemed like they were going to do away with it, then the natural consequence of it is to publicly withdraw any support of competitive formats which require those cards. Team trios where one of decks has to be Legacy sucks for commnunities where there's simply not cards available.

It is as foolish from the players to enter a format with dying support as it is from Wizards to oblige competitive players to go through it given the lack of support.

Quote from Iso »

I started Magic in high school, jobless. I could afford drafts with my allowance, and that was about it. Now that I have a real job, I'm starting to branch out into other formats, and that includes Legacy. However, I appear to be joining the wagon too late, as duals are no longer, well, "affordable". I couldn't get them when I couldn't afford them, and now that I can afford them at what they used to be, I unfortunately can not, now. I managed to pick up a playset of City of Traitors right before they spiked, as well as a playset of LEDs at pre-spike price, but that was unfortunately the extent of what I was able to procure with the massive debt I have. I feel like I'm being penalized for not being able to play the game sooner, which I had no control over. With all of this in mind, I'd very much like the Reserved List abolished.

I feel for you because I started around 97-98. Was a poor kid who bought packs of whatever he could find, which was mostly homelands. Had my original collection of tempest torn to shreds by a game store when i came in and traded in Rathi Dragons and the like for commons and uncommons no one wanted. The real crime is that now that I'm able to afford what I want and know what is good, it's expensive and I don't even have the time to play the game enough to make it worth it.

Quote from Honor Basquiat »

I'm sorry some of you guys missed the boat on Legacy and Vintage. I guess it kind of sucks but you aren't being punished and Wizards doesn't have an obligation to help players enter dying unpopular formats. Besides there are plenty of other ways to play Magic that don't involve Wizards reprinting cards the majority of the player base don't enjoy playing with and that don't involve explicitly breaking a promise.

I have a few casual decks and a handful of Commander decks, but neither casual nor Commander are competitive. Same with Cube, and I'm planning on building one of those, as well. Yes, I can play Magic in other ways, but Modern is a dumpster fire and I have no interest in buying a new deck every 3 months for Standard (and a "new deck" every time I play Limited). So yes, there are other options, but not for playing competitively. Legacy has a diverse metagame, a wide card pool, and a ton of viable strategies and depth that make it extremely appealing. The fact that there are 10 cards essential to winning in the format if I don't want to play mono-color (and 4 if I do) that are on the RL means that the accessibility of the format is making it far more difficult to play than it needs to be for people like myself that want to improve as players and have more options.

Quote from javert »

They do have the obligation if they are going to keep sanctioning Legacy and Vintage tournaments. Which is the point: since they are totally on board with the reserved list, backpedaling quickly each time it seemed like they were going to do away with it, then the natural consequence of it is to publicly withdraw any support of competitive formats which require those cards. Team trios where one of decks has to be Legacy sucks for commnunities where there's simply not cards available.

It is as foolish from the players to enter a format with dying support as it is from Wizards to oblige competitive players to go through it given the lack of support.

I suspect that people who love formats such as Vintage and Legacy will continue to play it even long after official support for them dies off.

Yes dual lands are the best lands, but that doesn't really matter. There are plenty of other lands that are considered to be good or even excellent by the vast majority of players. Dual lands are not important to 99% of people that play Magic and they certainly aren't necessary to play Magic the way the vast majority of players play Magic. People that are genuinely seriously interested in play Legacy and Vintage are an incredibly small percentage of the player base.

And once again, no it's not solely because of the price of the format. As I said previously, three or four years ago when the original dual lands were substantially less expensive than they are now and some Legacy decks had the value of what many Modern decks have today, Legacy still wasn't not a widely popular format. The format was still dying. Modern is a very successful and vibrant format and it's probably more expensive than it's ever been. Modern Jeskai costs about $1400 to build. Modern Jund costs more than $2000 to build. Players still play the format. 1v1 Commander is more popular than its ever been as a competitive format and those decks are even more expensive. Competitive four color control decks in 1v1 commander cost over $3000 to build.

One could actually make an argument that it would be selfish and short sighted for Wizards reprint cards on the reserved list. It would be violating a promise that was made to older and seasoned customers to appease a very small amount of players that actually want to play with the cards even though there are tens of thousands of other cards they can access that can also be reprinted along with other formats. 98% of cards in the game are eligible to be reprinted. 98%! Is it really such a bad thing that there is a very small subsection of cards that players can collect without worrying about their cards becoming less rare?

I certainly will acknowledge it is kind of rough for players that want to play Legacy competitively now and don't have any Legacy staples (although I could say the same thing about Modern), but players that have a strong desire to play Legacy are such a small part of the player base. I think a better solution would be to ban reserved list cards in Legacy, but I'm sure players interested in getting into the format would just end up complaining about that.

If players really want to get into Legacy so badly, they should either invest in the cards, knowing they will only go up in value or play a budget deck (yes, there are viable Legacy decks that don't cost $5000 to build).

I think you're completely missing the point. Yes, you can build budget. Does that mean you can viably play competitively? No. If I were to play Legacy with shocks in the decks I want to play that require them, I'd be completely outclassed.

Sure, I can build Oops, All Spells! or Death & Taxes. And, in fact, I have. But I enjoy a diverse play experience, and seeing this:



is not conducive to helping me enjoy a game that I've come to love over the years.

Commander isn't comparable, because even in Duel Commander, it's not a sanctioned event, there's less consistency in the decks, etc.; and you can have strong Commander decks without duals. (I say that as probably one of the Spike-iest Commander players at my LGS.) Modern has some expensive staples, sure - but guess what can get reprinted? (Hint: It's Modern staples. Guess what can't get reprinted due to the RL?)

Anyway, why are you talking about Modern? I literally just told you that I don't enjoy the format - and you're telling me about its merits? You clearly don't understand, so why are you arguing here if you don't have a horse in this race?

Quote from Honor Basquiat »

I'm sorry some of you guys missed the boat on Legacy and Vintage. I guess it kind of sucks but you aren't being punished and Wizards doesn't have an obligation to help players enter dying unpopular formats. Besides there are plenty of other ways to play Magic that don't involve Wizards reprinting cards the majority of the player base don't enjoy playing with and that don't involve explicitly breaking a promise.

Cards like Tabernacle are such an outlier in formats like Commander it's hardly worth mentioning. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale isn't even played in 1/10th of 1% of Commander decks.

I would hardly call commander a dying and unpopular format. No one has any idea how things would shake out for Legacy and Vintage if RL cards were reprinted, surely it would see some increased interest at least, but that's not really a primary concern. Pretty sure the reason Tabernacle isn't in more decks is literally because its always been a $500+ card since commander started to become really popular. It seems like an almost auto include in any sort of creature-light control deck and/or decks like super friends. People don't even bother putting it in lists because it's so unrealistically expensive. Cards like Academy Rector, Serra's Sanctum and Gaea's Cradle are more problematic to be getting more expensive honestly because they are super strong in commander.

Quote from Trumplebot »

Quote from Lakanna »

The RL is 905 garbage, cards that nobody cares about at all. The remaining 10%, though are cards that are literally irreplacable.

Here i highly disagree. Take a look at the new battlebound lands. Stick 2 Landtypes to them, and you have viable duallands for commander.
Stick a similar duel player clause on them, and you have vial duallands for legacy.

Take the tabernacle and replace the destroy effect with a sacrifice effect, and you have a functional different card that does the same in 90% of the decks.

And why not do one for just 2W? yes, it would be easier splashable, but if that effect for that price were so important, they could do it.

I do belive wizards could easily replace reserved list cards. But they simply have no intrest in doing so. Allowing more people to play legacy only means allowing more people to not spend money on magic for playing beside some start investement. That is what wizards have no intrest in doing.
They want you to spend money again and again, not once and then a small upkeep cost each year.

Thats why i think the reserved list discussion is the wrong discussion. Why we don´t get cards to replace the reserved list cards is the question.

I think you missed part of your quote;

Quote from Lithl »

You can't forget that it's not just reprints that are forbidden by the RL, it's also functional reprints.

A tabernacle with sacrifice or a spirit for 2W is literally a functional reprint that is forbidden by the RL as written.

Allowing more people to play legacy only means allowing more people to not spend money on magic for playing beside some start investement. That is what wizards have no intrest in doing.
They want you to spend money again and again, not once and then a small upkeep cost each year.

I disagree on this. If this were the case, modern masters staples like fetchlands surely wouldn't be worth what they are by now. They could print dual lands over and over again and they'd still sell sets. Tossing in occasional cards like tabernacle, cradle or chains would only drive those sales harder. Nope, pretty much the only thing the RL is doing right now is letting non-players profit off players currently.

Quote from Trumplebot »

I disagree with my offered tabernacle being a functional reprint. If indestructible creatures weren´t a thing, one could argue about it, but both cards work different with indestructible creatures like Marit-Lage, wich happens to see the light of play in decks that run tabernacle.

I mean, reverberate, increasing vengeance, twincast and harmless offering were different enough to be printed while fork and donate are on the reserved list. So we know that a simple colorshift is enough to make the card functional different enough, since there are several other examples (like sky spirit to the mentioned thunder spirit). Vengeance and offering have a target restriction the "original" spell didn´t have, but vengeance has an added benefit for that.

So why should my tabernacle be functional identical, while working different, while those are all ok?

To be a functional reprint, cards need to have (as far as i know) a) the same casting cost, b) the same rule text, and c) the same power/toughness in case its a creature. My tabernacle doesn´t have the same ruletext.

The thing is, wizards wiggles out of their own definitions by invokeing the "Spirit of the reserved list". But i think that is just a stunt to not have to explain why they don´t make such reprints as i offered.

Yes - we know that color shifting is not considered a functional reprint. However, I believe there was an uproar with Reverberate versus Fork. Reverberate was created in a different era of reprints. M10 released in July, 2009, before the major uproar that happened with the premium loophole because of Phyrexian Negator in a duel deck and Karn, Silver Golem in FTV: Relics in 2010.

Here's Maro's take on Reverberate:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/32012175825/if-fork-is-on-the-reserved-list-why-is

Here's his take on Karn, Silver Golem
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/26148843985/karn-silver-golem-is-on-the-reserved-list-and

More info:
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/beyp6/wotc_clarifies_reserved_list_reprint_policy/

Quote from Iso »

I think you're completely missing the point. Yes, you can build budget. Does that mean you can viably play competitively? No. If I were to play Legacy with shocks in the decks I want to play that require them, I'd be completely outclassed.

Sure, I can build Oops, All Spells! or Death & Taxes. And, in fact, I have. But I enjoy a diverse play experience, and seeing this:



is not conducive to helping me enjoy a game that I've come to love over the years.

Commander isn't comparable, because even in Duel Commander, it's not a sanctioned event, there's less consistency in the decks, etc.; and you can have strong Commander decks without duals. (I say that as probably one of the Spike-iest Commander players at my LGS.) Modern has some expensive staples, sure - but guess what can get reprinted? (Hint: It's Modern staples. Guess what can't get reprinted due to the RL?)

Anyway, why are you talking about Modern? I literally just told you that I don't enjoy the format - and you're telling me about its merits? You clearly don't understand, so why are you arguing here if you don't have a horse in this race?

I don't think I'm missing the point. My primary point is that the people that actually want to play with Time Walk and want to get into Legacy and Vintage now are such a small subsection of the Magic play group that there are plenty of other things Wizards can do for the game that will make more players happy and be less controversial than reprinting cards on the reserved list.

The reason I brought up Modern isn't because I assumed you like it, I brought it up to stress that the reason Legacy isn't popular isn't because decks cost a lot of money to build. Modern has some expensive staples that can be reprinted, but many of them aren't being reprinted, and people still play the format with those expensive cards.

Yes you would be completely outclassed if you tried to play certain decks in Legacy without shock lands. That's the way it is. You can play another Legacy deck that's cheaper or play another format, or buy the cards, or play a different game. The vast majority of players don't want to play Legacy and Vintage. The vast majority of players are fine with cards like Darkslick Shores and Watery Grave. They could care less if Underground Sea was reprinted and then there's another set of players who don't want Underground Sea to be reprinted because Wizards explicitly told them multiple times that it wouldn't be reprinted.

The reason I'm arguing is because I want people that are advocating for the ending of the reserved list to understand how small of a minority they are in relation to other players. 99% of players don't care that less than 2% of Magic cards (and most of that 2% are really crappy cards) won't ever be reprinted. In fact many players would complain if most of the cards on the reserve list were reprinted because they are so crappy. Virtually no one plays formats where Time Walk is legal, and kitchen table casual players don't want to play with cards that broken and stupid.

People not caring about the reserved list cards used to be pretty common. Nowadays, more and more people are playing commander as investors buyout RL staples. Everyone I've talked to about the RL at both my LGS's is over it. Even the guy with a tabernacle who just bought a Mishra's workshop before it spiked again (and runs LED, alpha duals, etc).

Cards like grim monolith and academy rector should not be half of what they are.

As far as your tabernacle suggestion... the same people that would be upset by a reprint would be upset at the sacrifice addendum on a functional reprint.

Regarding the popularity of Modern and Legacy as competitive/semi-competitive formats in terms of price and the reserved list:

I think the reserved list may have indirectly deflated the popularity of legacy even before the most absurd spikes. If you are an aspiring player of a non-rotating format in 2014(as an example), which do you choose? Do you choose Modern, where cards can and will be reprinted, and while prices will go up they will never get completely out of control?

Or do you choose Legacy, where, while some of your investment is "safe", the price of other staples is expected to keep growing? What if you want to get your friends to join after a while, will it be possible for them? What about a few years into the future, will there be enough cards around to support a local Legacy community? What if you want to have the option to branch out to more decks in the future? In Modern, you can expect the cost of your second deck to be on a similar level to your first, whereas for Legacy that second deck will be considerably more expensive, perhaps prohibitively so?

I also acknowledge that for a significant amount of players, the RL is a positive factor in choosing Legacy over Modern, since they can buy a deck, play it for a few years, and sell it without losing money (and perhaps gaining). But I think this group is smaller than the first.

These aren't the only factors in choosing a format to invest in, of course, but I definitely think that the reserved list has had an influence on the relative growth of Modern and Legacy. At least moreso than "people don't want to play with broken cards".

The claims that the dual lands aren't "necessary' is sophistry, plain and simple. You're playing word games. How about this, take your Commander deck, the one you've worked so hard to put together, and replace every card you can with one that's ALMOST as good. Replace your fetchlands with Evolving Wilds, replace Lightning Bolt with Lightning Strike, you don't NEED a Sol Ring, you can play just fine with Sisay's Ring, right?

If you don't care at all about winning or improving your game, you don't need the very best cards ever printed is what you're saying. The fact is, though, that the kind of people who actually join a Magic website and post here? We're interested in several things. Improving our game, improving our play, winning, designing new strategies... But nobody here believes they can't improve their experience somehow. In Commander, you can get a noticeable improvement in how your deck performs, for only several thousand dollars!

Quote from Lakanna »

The claims that the dual lands aren't "necessary' is sophistry, plain and simple. You're playing word games. How about this, take your Commander deck, the one you've worked so hard to put together, and replace every card you can with one that's ALMOST as good. Replace your fetchlands with Evolving Wilds, replace Lightning Bolt with Lightning Strike, you don't NEED a Sol Ring, you can play just fine with Sisay's Ring, right?

If you don't care at all about winning or improving your game, you don't need the very best cards ever printed is what you're saying. The fact is, though, that the kind of people who actually join a Magic website and post here? We're interested in several things. Improving our game, improving our play, winning, designing new strategies... But nobody here believes they can't improve their experience somehow. In Commander, you can get a noticeable improvement in how your deck performs, for only several thousand dollars!

How am I playing word games? The vast majority of Magic players don't care about having a dual land that always comes in untapped and is fetchable. There are tons of Magic players that play Standard and Modern, so they have no desire for original duals. Hardly anyone plays Legacy or Vintage which are the only two formats that really need the duals.

In Commander, you don't need the duals to build viable decks. You would want them if you were creating a highly tuned tier 1 competitive commander deck, but that's something less than 1% of Commander players do. Most Commander players don't even play with fetch lands, they certainly aren't passionate about playing with original duals. There are dozens of dual lands, sure they aren't as efficient as the original duals but the significant majority of Magic players don't care about that.

I'm saying an incredibly small percentage of Magic players care enough about improving their game where they believe there decks aren't efficient unless they have dual lands.

Reprinting cards on the reserved list breaks a promise that was made to players. This will frustrate and disappoint players for the sake of helping two of the least popular formats in Magic and an absurdly small minority of the overall Magic population that wants to play with cards like original duals, and an even smaller number of people that want to play with stupid broken cards like Time Walk.

You sarcastically propose playing Evolving Wilds over Polluted Delta, but the reality is way more Commander players use Evolving Wilds than any other fetch land in Commander. A significant majority of players use cards like Darksteel Ingot. There are tons of players that think infinite combos are boring and think many cards are too powerful and unfun.

What you either don't understand or you refuse to acknowledge is that very few players play Magic in a competitive fashion with hyper efficiency and optimization. For this reason, most players don't care about having cards like Underground Sea and Time Walk reprinted. Reprinting cards on the reserved list not only breaks a promise that was made to customers, but it doesn't even excite a majority of players. Wizards chooses to instead reprint cards that aren't on the reserved list or print new cards. This makes more players happy and they don't have to break any promises.

----

I think JovianHomarid makes some respectable points, but prices of Modern decks have gone up since 2014 and the format is still growing. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter why Legacy and Vintage are dying/dead. Do you really think that if they reprinted dual lands, suddenly Legacy would eclipse Modern? Or how about this, suppose Wizards banned the reserved list cards from the Legacy format? Would that suddenly make Legacy a super popular format? I believe the answer to both of these questions is no, but at least with the latter move, Wizards doesn't violate a promise they made.

I also agree with your point about some players seeing the reserved list as an incentive for players to spend a lot of money on cardboard knowing that their cards won't decrease in value.

I also absolutely believe that Vintage, even if it were affordable would be incredibly boring to players because the games are too fast.

Quote from Trumplebot »

Well, i actually agree with Honor Basquiat here. While i have a big legacy card pool, including all duals and fetches, none on my commander decks have any (although most are 3 colors). there are just enough other options.
2 Decks have daemonic tutors (because i only have 2) and the others do well enough with diabolic tutors. My gahve-deck still has no doubling season, and does good with primal vigor.

IF people what to play cutting edge competetive, why do they have to do it in a casual format?
Commander is seldom sanctioned anyway, so why is the reserved list a thing for this? Just proxy the cards, if your envirement really demands this. Otherwise, find other options. You dont have to blindly copy a decklist, you can build your own decks.

For commander, its mostly "but i want them" from many players.

Legacy and vintage is different, because they are competetive formats with sanctioned events.

Exactly.

Here is a breakdown of the Reserved List:

When you evaluate the cards on the Reserved List it's pretty clear that reprinting 1 and 2 is would bring the least amount of pleasure to the overall player base. Reprinting 3 would make a very small minority of players incredibly happy but it wouldn't be especially exciting to most players and it would frustrate a lot of collectors and older players. Reprinting 4 would likely bring the greatest amount of pleasure to the overall player base. There are no other cards that are viable substitutes to what these cards do and some casual players would be excited (although not especially excited).

If you believe Wizards is acting selfishly or outside of the interest of players, it's actually the contrary. If Wizards wants to make Legacy have a lower barrier to entry they could ban cards from the reserved list, or maybe just the dual lands. This would upset many established Legacy players and the dual lands would likely decrease in value but they wouldn't be breaking their promise. However it wouldn't surprise me that even if Wizards did this, the few players that are actually interested in playing Legacy now that it would be more affordable would complain about the decision.

I believe the majority of people that are in favor of abolishing the reserved list are putting their own personal interests and desires ahead of the majority of the Magic community and collectors.

The sweeping assumptions that no one cares if cards like dual lands are reprinted is pretty preposterous, I doubt there are many players that wouldn't jam underground seas in with their watery graves if they had them. The assumption that most commander players are hyper casuals that would settle for playing subpar cards is also not true. There are a lot of really new and/casual players, but I know at my LGS's, most people are constantly putting money into their decks or trying to trade up to improve the efficiency of their mana bases.

I'm not even that boiled about dual lands or ridiculous cards like tabernacle.... I'm annoyed that cards like Academy Rector, Gaea's Cradle, Serra's Sanctum, Volrath's Stronghold, Grim Monolith, Power Artifact, Nether Void, Invoke Prejudice, Palinchron, Gate to Phyrexia, Lifeline, Time Spiral, Lake of the Dead, Mox Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, etc that range from good to great in commander are starting to cost body parts.

Collectors aren't even the real problem, it's investors coming in to pump and dump. People that don't even play magic coming in to profit on the secondary market at the expense of players. A lot of these cards are either unique and irreplaceable or simply so much better at ramping then any cheaper counterparts that it would actually be frustrating at times to run them. I may be in the minority of players that actually have LGS's fire commander pods for prizes, but surely not the only one that likes playing with quality cards.

Quote from Lumovanis »

The sweeping assumptions that no one cares if cards like dual lands are reprinted is pretty preposterous, I doubt there are many players that wouldn't jam underground seas in with their watery graves if they had them. The assumption that most commander players are hyper casuals that would settle for playing subpar cards is also not true. There are a lot of really new and/casual players, but I know at my LGS's, most people are constantly putting money into their decks or trying to trade up to improve the efficiency of their mana bases.
.

This paragraph is really interesting. You accuse someone of making sweeping generalizations, then attempt the same thing. The opposition was kind enough to supply some evidence while all you give is personal experience. Do you have anything other than personal feelings that points to competative commander being anything but a miniscule minority?

Yes, go into in any group of commander players and start talking about banning relatively tame cards like aetherflux reservoir and you'll see an instant dumpster fire of competitive commander players calling out "casuals". I can go by personal experience based on the large commander groups of 50+ players I play with frequently

Quote from Lumovanis »

Yes, go into in any group of commander players and start talking about banning relatively tame cards like aetherflux reservoir and you'll see an instant dumpster fire of competitive commander players calling out "casuals". I can go by personal experience based on the large commander groups of 50+ players I play with frequently

Do you honestly not understand how unreasonably small of a sample is 50+ player? Using personal experience when trying to state anything about a much larger group is foolish at best and disingenuous at worst. As I said, the other side provided a site with evidence to back up their claim that the majority is more casual by reference of how much more Evolving Wilds is played over the more powerful fetchlands. Your response amounts to "Well I personally know more competitive players than Casual players and because my personal experience outweighs any kind of empirical data, obviously you're wrong and I'm right." If your play group was several thousand or at least several hundred your words would have some weight, but since you admit its a mere 50+ it carries no weight.

Quote from user_938036 »

Quote from Lumovanis »

Yes, go into in any group of commander players and start talking about banning relatively tame cards like aetherflux reservoir and you'll see an instant dumpster fire of competitive commander players calling out "casuals". I can go by personal experience based on the large commander groups of 50+ players I play with frequently

Do you honestly not understand how unreasonably small of a sample is 50+ player? Using personal experience when trying to state anything about a much larger group is foolish at best and disingenuous at worst. As I said, the other side provided a site with evidence to back up their claim that the majority is more casual by reference of how much more Evolving Wilds is played over the more powerful fetchlands. Your response amounts to "Well I personally know more competitive players than Casual players and because my personal experience outweighs any kind of empirical data, obviously you're wrong and I'm right." If your play group was several thousand or at least several hundred your words would have some weight, but since you admit its a mere 50+ it carries no weight.

How exactly that site back up their claim? Shocklands and Checklands rule in that top100. Also, Command Tower isn't the kind of card that gets reprinted as uncommon in every set and it isn't suboptimal in any way. If his claim were true, the lower rarity cycles like Elfhame Palace and Jungle Hollow would be the ones at the top. Terramorphic Expanse / Evolving Wilds are way lower in the list so its rather sleazy trying to use that as the prime conclusion of the page.

Quote from javert »

How exactly that site back up their claim? Shocklands and Checklands rule in that top100. Also, Command Tower isn't the kind of card that gets reprinted as uncommon in every set and it isn't suboptimal in any way. If his claim were true, the lower rarity cycles like Elfhame Palace and Jungle Hollow would be the ones at the top. Terramorphic Expanse / Evolving Wilds are way lower in the list so its rather sleazy trying to use that as the prime conclusion of the page.

Being casual, you don't need the absolute best cards to play. Evolving Wilds is a far inferior fetchland. Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expance are both rather high on the list of top 100 most played lands while not a single fetchland makes the list. This is a casual setting.


Where is the flaw, and how is it sleazy to make a direct comparison? The primary conclusion drawn from the sight was that Evolving Wilds is used over the other fetchlands. The conclusion drawn from that information is that this is a more casual environment because if it was more competitive the fetchlands would be more favored.

If you want to talk about the rest of the list that's fine. There is only 1 rare land in the top 10 most used lands. By going to the top 20 you only up that to 4. Of the 'best' lands, the ABRU duals, only 3 make the list, all in the bottom 10.

If you try to make the claim that the most suboptimal lands are used the most you will obviously fail. However it is undeniable that the most optimal lands are not favored.

I would think that has a lot to do with Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse being included in Commander decks whereas ABUR are, quite clearly, not.

The logical conclusion is merely that enough players purchase at least one of the precon decks, play them, then evolve them by removing and adding cards. Continuing this logical path of thought is that since Commander is intended to be casual, many experienced players who do own ABUR or the better fetchlands actually understand the goal of Commander and intentionally cripple their deck accordingly. I think the saying is 70/30 or 60/40 or something? Someone will correct me.

Is it logical to draw this sort of comparison between an increasingly expensive and rare card with a .15 cent card included in every single precon? I don't think so. I don't think anyone ever draws comparisons between the Ford F-series and the Ferrari F-series unless it's in jest.

A better question would be, if WotC reprinted ABUR Duals in Precons (assuming no RL) would those lands, as a whole, have the same penetration as Evolving Wilds? I think the answer is absolutely. Inclusion of ABUR would guarantee to some degree that everyone has easy (aka cheap) access to these cards and everyone will use them to stay within the 60/40 mantra.

I have very strong opinions against the RL and do not think the continued existence of the list will prove healthy for the game or the players. Not for another 25 years anyways. WotC's stoic belief that players will continue buying ever crappier cards isn't sustainable and players will turn to other sources to enjoy the unique experiences offered by Vintage, Legacy, and even 93/94.

WotC has, in the past, voiced a negative opinion on the RL. SCG has a pretty good article against it. It has be adjusted and shrunk. It's not carved into stone. Yet WotC new(ish) current policy of ZERO comment on the RL does nothing to sway my opinion against it. Pretending the elephant in the room doesn't exist doesn't mean you can continue ignoring the ever growing pile of poo that has to be dealt with.

I'm exhausted so I'm not going to continue this post. Comment how you wish on this post, I have already cast my vote against the RL.

Quote from user_938036 »

Where is the flaw, and how is it sleazy to make a direct comparison? The primary conclusion drawn from the sight was that Evolving Wilds is used over the other fetchlands. The conclusion drawn from that information is that this is a more casual environment because if it was more competitive the fetchlands would be more favored.

If you want to talk about the rest of the list that's fine. There is only 1 rare land in the top 10 most used lands. By going to the top 20 you only up that to 4. Of the 'best' lands, the ABRU duals, only 3 make the list, all in the bottom 10.

There's 10 fetchlands versus only Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse. It's natural that their individual popularity is diluted since not a single fetchland is going to shine over the others. There's also the whole fact that in a singleton format putting a fetchland doesn't rule out putting a Evolving Wilds too unlike a regular constructed format.

The site itself says "These are the top cards across all decks, ranked by popularity relative to the number of decks that could play them (restricted by color identity)". That's how the trilands get higher because the pool of decks that can play them is quite smaller (the absolute numbers is actually below the rare duals).

The Golgari Guildgate and Overgrown tomb are much more apt comparisons since the number of decks that can play them stay the same and there's multiple cycles of both rares and common / uncommon lands so it's not an uneven comparison.

But seriously, if you're going to use the basic lands as an argument ignoring the lack of singleton restriction and which bounds to find their way in all decks but crazy exceptions, chances are you don't actually play any Commander at all or are just looking to pass pointless statistics as misleading facts.

I'm amazed that people here really don't understand that there are thousands of players that see Sea of Clouds and Tundra as virtually identical because they don't care about (or even know about) basic land types on nonbasic lands.

Again, in Commander, you don't need the duals to build viable decks. You would want them if you were creating a highly tuned tier 1 competitive commander deck, but that's something less than 1% of Commander players do. Most Commander players don't even play with fetch lands, they certainly aren't passionate about playing with original duals. There are dozens of dual lands, sure they aren't as efficient as the original duals but the significant majority of Magic players don't care about that.

If you aren't playing competitively and for optimization, you aren't going to be super passionate and excited about an old dual land reprint, there are dozens of dual lands and you don't need Tundra to play a viable Commander deck.