They just need to print cards that are strictly better OR ban all reserve list cards from all formats (restrict vintage? maybe even full out ban vintage is a weird beast) but ban in every other format. If they printed fetchabled trilands it would not violate the reserve list. They would be SO much better that it is unlikely that people would run both duel and tri lands in Legacy. Print them once then peroidcly print them again every 3-5 years to keep supply up and you save the format with only a minor boost in a very versitile format and cut costs down.
They just need to print cards that are strictly better OR ban all reserve list cards from all formats (restrict vintage? maybe even full out ban vintage is a weird beast) but ban in every other format. If they printed fetchabled trilands it would not violate the reserve list. They would be SO much better that it is unlikely that people would run both duel and tri lands in Legacy. Print them once then peroidcly print them again every 3-5 years to keep supply up and you save the format with only a minor boost in a very versitile format and cut costs down.
I don't think we have to worry about them banning the list from play since the more we are discussing it the more it looks like they have basically no reason other than timing to not take the RL down. They definitely don't want the market to get so turbulent as to trigger another 1996 comic book crash and the potential damages from removing it are negligible to them long term. I think they are more worried about recovering players after the last couple of years of standard and re configuring the releases structure to bring back core sets. Call it a guess, but they were probably testing some waters with how to move the game forward and wanted to see if they could get away with low numbers of reprints. Case in point, the entire experiment fell apart and the bad R&D on top of it all lead to some standard bannings. I still don't think what they are doing this year is going to be enough. They will need to keep reprinting hardcore for at least the next two years to get things back to the way things were in RTR.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I realized something important regarding the reserved list:
For those who own expensive cards on the list actually playing with those cards has become more and more unrealistic. Either the cards are graded and thus unplayable in those hard cases or you have to get them out of safe storage.
Even when you have them available and playable at any time, you might not want to take them out to play with in fear of cards getting stolen or damaged.
So even for those already possessing power, those cards getting affordable reprints might actually be a boon regarding the game.
As we know from cards like Alpha/Beta/Unlimited Birds of Paradise even with 10+ reprints they retain their value because they are original cards. As long as reprints are distinguishable from the original printing there shouldn't be a problem.
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“Yawgmoth spent eons wrapping Phyrexians in human skin. We are the sleeper agents, and we are everywhere.”
I realized something important regarding the reserved list:
For those who own expensive cards on the list actually playing with those cards has become more and more unrealistic. Either the cards are graded and thus unplayable in those hard cases or you have to get them out of safe storage.
Even when you have them available and playable at any time, you might not want to take them out to play with in fear of cards getting stolen or damaged.
I own a number of expensive reserved list cards, including two copies of Mishra's Workshop, a Nether Void and Invoke Prejudice, and something like 6 copies of Gaea's Cradle. I play with them on a regular basis, and am even willing to let people borrow the decks they're in for a game or two.
The original snapcaster is only a few bucks cheaper, possibly because it was originally printed as a rare in a regular set while the newer one was printed as a mythic on a supplemental product, so there may be fewer of the new ones out there, which makes them scarcer and consequently more expensive.
So I was finally able to trade enough cards and credit for a tropical island (revised MP) at $225 today. It would suck if the price fell by half. It does give a small sense of accomplishment to get one and knowing it shouldn't fall does give confidence to the market. Like why buy gold?
Which is a great thing. I'm now trying to think of a blood-diamond comparison to MTG lol.
Diamonds aren't actually all that rare. Artificial scarcity keeps prices high, with government support of the cabal that controls supply. They've managed to control the entire official supply, such that any diamond NOT officially released is automatically assumed to be a "blood diamond" and therefore a terrible thing, no matter what the actual source of said diamond was. They've manipulated public perception such that a relatively common piece of cardboard stone is somehow valuable, and any unauthorized pieces of cardboard stone that are similar are E-V-I-L.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
You mean like Sean Dugas that was killed for his collection?
There it is. Welp, this got dark.
Yep, sorry. That wasn't my intent.
It's pretty rotten how we, as a human race, have to live with this. When the latest game console is released, on day one, you can request a security guard to walk you to your car. The same goes for when the latest Nike is released. We walk to-from our LGS with thousands of dollars of cards, I'm quite honestly surprised this doesn't happen more often.
Yes, I recognize this is a first world problem, but this isn't about computers, shoes or cards. This is about someone's life. I have a sneaky suspicion that Dugas isn't the last one to have died over the value of Magic cards.
There is also the matter of not necessarily diamonds, but pebbles becoming diamonds. Why did this cheap RL card spike in price? Oh, buyouts. The shorter the quantity of a RL card, the more likely it can be made into a more expensive card.
I am still in the process of reading the thread, but my general assessment is that people who are against the reserved list are likely against primarily for the sake of being contrarian.
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This is a genuine question I am asking in good faith. Why are so many players obsessed over the fact that the reserved list isn't being abolished?
There are about 600 cards on the Reserved List and over 20,000 unique cards that have been printed.
That means less than 3% of Magic cards are on the reserved list. Out of that 3%, many of the cards are really crappy cards like Thelonite Monk, Keeper of Tresserhorn, Fungus Elemental and Spirit Shield. Some of these are cards that are so bad, many players would actually complain if Wizards reprinted those cards.
Yes, it would be nice if I could get an Underground Sea for my Commander deck without having to spend $530.00, but does it prevent me from building a viable Commander deck? Of course not. Are most commander players going to lose a game because they aren't running Breeding Pool instead of Tropical Island? Of course not.
The thousands of players on Reddit and Blogatog complaining about the reserved list surely can't all be Legacy and Vintage players. The amount of Legacy and Vintage players is so small in relation to other Magic players.
What decks are you just dying to build with broken cards like Black Lotus? Kitchen table decks? Why not just proxy them? Maybe it's that players are upset cards that are obviously broken like Treachery, Time Walk and Ancestral Recall won't be reprinted.
Those cards surely wouldn't be legal in formats like Standard or Modern if they were reprinted. Many of the powerful cards on the reserved list are already banned in Commander. I can't seriously believe that all the players that complain about the reserve list are Legacy/Vintage players or players that genuinely want to spend time delving into Legacy and Vintage. I believe that's the case because I have encountered several players at LGS's that complain about the reserve list and have no desire or intention of playing Legacy or Vintage. I honestly believe a lot of players just like to complain because out of the formats and the ways the vast majority of players play Magic the Gathering, one can easily build decks without relying on cards from the reserved list.
So what is it about the reserved list that drives you mad? What am I missing? What specifically do you want reprinted on the reserved list and why?
Note: I'm not a proponent or supporter of the reserved list but I don't think my life as a avid Magic enthusiast would be significantly impacted for better or for worse if the reserve list were abolished or maintained. There are numerous cards that aren't on the reserve list that I would prefer to be reprinted over cards that are on the reserved list. For what it's worth, I am a casual/semi-competitive Commander and Modern player that drafts sometimes.
The biggest reason people are against the RL? Without a doubt, it's the original dual lands. They're far and away the most useful and versatile cards that most people will never be able to play with. Will you LOSE a game of Commander if you play Breeding Pool instead of [c]Tropical Island[/c} Maybe, maybe not, but it increases your odds a bit. I have 4-color Atraxa deck, and being able to include 6 shocklands, 6 original duals, and fetchlands means that that deck is FAR more consistent than if I only had the shocks/fetches.
The RL is 905 garbage, cards that nobody cares about at all. The remaining 10%, though are cards that are literally irreplacable. They're unique in what they do or how they do it. Sure, you can play Magus of the Tabernacle, but it's in almost every way worse than The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. You CAN play a worse alternative in almost every case, but it's a worse alternative. That's not being contrary, it's wanting to play the game.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
The biggest reason people are against the RL? Without a doubt, it's the original dual lands. They're far and away the most useful and versatile cards that most people will never be able to play with. Will you LOSE a game of Commander if you play Breeding Pool instead of [c]Tropical Island[/c} Maybe, maybe not, but it increases your odds a bit. I have 4-color Atraxa deck, and being able to include 6 shocklands, 6 original duals, and fetchlands means that that deck is FAR more consistent than if I only had the shocks/fetches.
The RL is 905 garbage, cards that nobody cares about at all. The remaining 10%, though are cards that are literally irreplacable. They're unique in what they do or how they do it. Sure, you can play Magus of the Tabernacle, but it's in almost every way worse than The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. You CAN play a worse alternative in almost every case, but it's a worse alternative. That's not being contrary, it's wanting to play the game.
The dual lands are good, but absolutely not essential except for in very competitive circles of play. There are dozens of dual lands including many that enter untapped. Only for a small fraction of the most competitive players want them to significantly improve their decks.
You say it's not being contrary, but I think it is. Even though there are tens of thousands of unique cards, because a very small fraction of them aren't being reprinted, people are complaining about it even though the majority of players don't actually want those cards to be reprinted. This is especially true about the jank cards or the incredibly OP cards that almost no one wants to play against (i.e. Time Walk) Not to mention there is a sub section of players that DON'T want those cards reprinted and Wizards explicitly promised them they wouldn't reprint those cards.
I am still in the process of reading the thread, but my general assessment is that people who are against the reserved list are likely against primarily for the sake of being contrarian.
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This is a genuine question I am asking in good faith. Why are so many players obsessed over the fact that the reserved list isn't being abolished?
There are about 600 cards on the Reserved List and over 20,000 unique cards that have been printed.
That means less than 3% of Magic cards are on the reserved list. Out of that 3%, many of the cards are really crappy cards like Thelonite Monk, Keeper of Tresserhorn, Fungus Elemental and Spirit Shield. Some of these are cards that are so bad, many players would actually complain if Wizards reprinted those cards.
Yes, it would be nice if I could get an Underground Sea for my Commander deck without having to spend $530.00, but does it prevent me from building a viable Commander deck? Of course not. Are most commander players going to lose a game because they aren't running Breeding Pool instead of Tropical Island? Of course not.
The thousands of players on Reddit and Blogatog complaining about the reserved list surely can't all be Legacy and Vintage players. The amount of Legacy and Vintage players is so small in relation to other Magic players.
What decks are you just dying to build with broken cards like Black Lotus? Kitchen table decks? Why not just proxy them? Maybe it's that players are upset cards that are obviously broken like Treachery, Time Walk and Ancestral Recall won't be reprinted.
Those cards surely wouldn't be legal in formats like Standard or Modern if they were reprinted. Many of the powerful cards on the reserved list are already banned in Commander. I can't seriously believe that all the players that complain about the reserve list are Legacy/Vintage players or players that genuinely want to spend time delving into Legacy and Vintage. I believe that's the case because I have encountered several players at LGS's that complain about the reserve list and have no desire or intention of playing Legacy or Vintage. I honestly believe a lot of players just like to complain because out of the formats and the ways the vast majority of players play Magic the Gathering, one can easily build decks without relying on cards from the reserved list.
So what is it about the reserved list that drives you mad? What am I missing? What specifically do you want reprinted on the reserved list and why?
Note: I'm not a proponent or supporter of the reserved list but I don't think my life as a avid Magic enthusiast would be significantly impacted for better or for worse if the reserve list were abolished or maintained. There are numerous cards that aren't on the reserve list that I would prefer to be reprinted over cards that are on the reserved list. For what it's worth, I am a casual/semi-competitive Commander and Modern player that drafts sometimes.
People want to play other formats, Vinatge (and legacy) have a reputation of being the "most fun" formats to ever exsist, However to play said formats you need to shell out afew grand. Your right in that most of the reserve list is trash that wouldn't even get get a 11th pick in a draft, however the few are NOT trash are the best of the best at what they do. Some so good at what they do even the watered down version are amazing T1 playable in the formats they are legal in (looking at you mox). The other draw of these formats is "they are unchanging" once you got your deck your good for life, no one is going to compain if you play your Stax deck you bought 10 years ago in a tournment today. Some new enteries shake up the format now and again but ultimately MOST decks teirs are less about power and more about popularity of OTHERS decks then the power of any given deck in question. It stright up comes down to people think the price point is too high. They WANT that stability and reliability and high power level but feel that the price of a used car is too much for it. This is made worse by Wizards explicitly NOT wanting people to play eternal formats, it goes against their final interests. This leads to a situation where people want to play the fun high power stable anything goes wild west format while at the same time wizards is actively starving that format since THEY absurdly do NOT want people playing it. The reserve list is wizards weapon to kill the older formats becuase olderformats are trying to kill wizards revenue streems. Once you play an older foramt you (on average) STOP playing standard (the cash cow) and limit playing other formats (you can only play so much).
You say that you hear people compain about it but have 0 desire to go in to legacy or vintage, I challange that assessment, Offer these people a FREE T1 combo Legacy deck with the only condition being a) you can't sell it and b) you must play at least 1 game a week with it. I bet every single one of said people would take the deck. Cost is what drive them to never play not lack of desire TO play.
I am still in the process of reading the thread, but my general assessment is that people who are against the reserved list are likely against primarily for the sake of being contrarian.
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This is a genuine question I am asking in good faith. Why are so many players obsessed over the fact that the reserved list isn't being abolished?
There are about 600 cards on the Reserved List and over 20,000 unique cards that have been printed.
That means less than 3% of Magic cards are on the reserved list. Out of that 3%, many of the cards are really crappy cards like Thelonite Monk, Keeper of Tresserhorn, Fungus Elemental and Spirit Shield. Some of these are cards that are so bad, many players would actually complain if Wizards reprinted those cards.
Yes, it would be nice if I could get an Underground Sea for my Commander deck without having to spend $530.00, but does it prevent me from building a viable Commander deck? Of course not. Are most commander players going to lose a game because they aren't running Breeding Pool instead of Tropical Island? Of course not.
The thousands of players on Reddit and Blogatog complaining about the reserved list surely can't all be Legacy and Vintage players. The amount of Legacy and Vintage players is so small in relation to other Magic players.
What decks are you just dying to build with broken cards like Black Lotus? Kitchen table decks? Why not just proxy them? Maybe it's that players are upset cards that are obviously broken like Treachery, Time Walk and Ancestral Recall won't be reprinted.
Those cards surely wouldn't be legal in formats like Standard or Modern if they were reprinted. Many of the powerful cards on the reserved list are already banned in Commander. I can't seriously believe that all the players that complain about the reserve list are Legacy/Vintage players or players that genuinely want to spend time delving into Legacy and Vintage. I believe that's the case because I have encountered several players at LGS's that complain about the reserve list and have no desire or intention of playing Legacy or Vintage. I honestly believe a lot of players just like to complain because out of the formats and the ways the vast majority of players play Magic the Gathering, one can easily build decks without relying on cards from the reserved list.
So what is it about the reserved list that drives you mad? What am I missing? What specifically do you want reprinted on the reserved list and why?
Note: I'm not a proponent or supporter of the reserved list but I don't think my life as a avid Magic enthusiast would be significantly impacted for better or for worse if the reserve list were abolished or maintained. There are numerous cards that aren't on the reserve list that I would prefer to be reprinted over cards that are on the reserved list. For what it's worth, I am a casual/semi-competitive Commander and Modern player that drafts sometimes.
People want to play other formats, Vinatge (and legacy) have a reputation of being the "most fun" formats to ever exsist, However to play said formats you need to shell out afew grand. Your right in that most of the reserve list is trash that wouldn't even get get a 11th pick in a draft, however the few are NOT trash are the best of the best at what they do. Some so good at what they do even the watered down version are amazing T1 playable in the formats they are legal in (looking at you mox). The other draw of these formats is "they are unchanging" once you got your deck your good for life, no one is going to compain if you play your Stax deck you bought 10 years ago in a tournment today. Some new enteries shake up the format now and again but ultimately MOST decks teirs are less about power and more about popularity of OTHERS decks then the power of any given deck in question. It stright up comes down to people think the price point is too high. They WANT that stability and reliability and high power level but feel that the price of a used car is too much for it. This is made worse by Wizards explicitly NOT wanting people to play eternal formats, it goes against their final interests. This leads to a situation where people want to play the fun high power stable anything goes wild west format while at the same time wizards is actively starving that format since THEY absurdly do NOT want people playing it. The reserve list is wizards weapon to kill the older formats becuase olderformats are trying to kill wizards revenue streems. Once you play an older foramt you (on average) STOP playing standard (the cash cow) and limit playing other formats (you can only play so much).
You say that you hear people compain about it but have 0 desire to go in to legacy or vintage, I challange that assessment, Offer these people a FREE T1 combo Legacy deck with the only condition being a) you can't sell it and b) you must play at least 1 game a week with it. I bet every single one of said people would take the deck. Cost is what drive them to never play not lack of desire TO play.
I disagree here. I think vast majority of Magic the Gathering players would say that cards like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Invoke Prejudice are broken and unfun to play against. There are way more players that want Wizards to reprint Demonic Tutor or Snapcaster Mage than Time Walk or Ancestral Recall. I think a very small minority of players want to play a format as fast as Vintage or as skill intensive as Legacy. Even before dual lands were worth an arm and a leg the format was already dying in favor of other formats because people prefer to play Magic other ways.
Personally, if the dual lands were reprinted, I'd play with them, because while they are powerful, they aren't inherently broken or unfun to play against, but I certainly don't need to play with them. I once spent $150 on a judge promo Intuition for Commander because there are no other cards in the format that do anything like that card. I wouldn't spend anywhere near that on Badlands when I can play Blood Crypt and other RB lands that do practically the same thing. Unless you are playing at an incredibly competitive level, you don't need Underground Sea, and if you really are so die hard and serious, trade or buy into the cards knowing they will retain their value because they are on the reserved list rather than complaining that Wizards won't break a promise that would piss off a lot of players and help a small fraction of players. Yes, Legacy is expensive, but if someone really wants enter the format, there are some Legacy decks that can be played on a budget that rivals competitive Modern decks.
As far as Wizards wanting people not to play Eternal formats, I don't believe that. Commander is an eternal format. Commander is a format which allow cards from all Magic: The Gathering sets with the standard card back and non-silver-bordered card frames. It is also a format where the vast majority of heavily played cards aren't printed in Standard expansions (Out of the top played 100 cards in the format, only two of them are legal in Standard right now) yet Wizards is constantly promoting and supporting the format and is even introducing new cards in Standard expansions intended for this Eternal format because a ton of players enjoy playing it.
People like Honor Basquiat are borderline disingenuous when he/she doesn't understand why people are against the RL and calling them contrarian. Instead of just trying understand the reason of some of the arguments, he/she warps and downplay it so badly and ignore the complete fair ones.
The argument of just 600 cards being in it and people being obsessed over it would be fine if Legacy was not a real competitive format and some of the cards in the reserve list are essential with no proper substitute. Saying dual lands aren't essential is laughable at best, dishonest even. Imagine if these cards weren't in reserve list? Legacy could be more widespread. Even that absurd argument about P9, he or she ignores that Vintage is also a super fun format that anyone who could have any access to it with real cards would jump to it in a heartbeat.
Also reprints don't mean reprint it to death and introduce them to formats where they don't belong, just like any reprint ever done. It's really nerving the way that poster ignores reality. P9 if it was ever reprinted in some alternate reality could be introduced as prizes for PT/worlds, so not many copies would be in the wild per year. Legacy reprints could be done in a similar fashion to Eternal masters.
Also, I dislike people saying that most of RL are garbage anyway as argument. Casuals would love to be able to play some of that "garbage". They are unique and deserve to be played as well. With the buyouts, not even hot garbage like Ramirez del Pietro will be at normal reach for casuals eventually. I imagine some people would like to play with it for laughs, but without paying overpriced premium for it.
Bottom line the real argument is should this be a game first or a collectible first. Can a balance be struck? I'm a collector first and I'd be ok with the RL gone. It served its purpose, it doesn't serve its original purpose now because buyouts just warp the market in an insidious way.
I understand the reason and history of the RL. Some cards like P9 should stay as a relic of the past and become antique items basically. However, some cards have no reason to be there (like retroactively adding cards from "newer" sets like Urza block). Intelligently done reprints don't hurt the value of collections.
The RL isn't a monolithic thing. It was revised a couple times. Sadly it become unnecessarily strict. I think at least the functional reprint rule could be easily abolished. It could piss off some powerful collectors, but eventually I think they would accept it as not that harmful to their "investment". Lot of cards are super valuable not because they are playable or are in the RL per se. Just look at Alpha/Beta reprints.
Letting functional reprints to be made could also make people stop bugging about the RL.
Alternatively, just banning most of the playable RL cards from Legacy or even Commander would be also a "solution", but a bad and distasteful one as well.
Sadly, our opinions matter too little in this matter. Even if 99% of the playerbase were in unison against the RL and were actively voicing it would not cause much change to it. People/organizations with real influence over WotC are the ones who pull the string and they favor status quo for RL matter. I don't see much shake up in this matter anytime ever.
People like Honor Basquiat are borderline disingenuous when he/she doesn't understand why people are against the RL and calling them contrarian. Instead of just trying understand the reason of some of the arguments, he/she warps and downplay it so badly and ignore the complete fair ones.
The argument of just 600 cards being in it and people being obsessed over it would be fine if Legacy was not a real competitive format and some of the cards in the reserve list are essential with no proper substitute. Saying dual lands aren't essential is laughable at best, dishonest even. Imagine if these cards weren't in reserve list? Legacy could be more widespread. Even that absurd argument about P9, he or she ignores that Vintage is also a super fun format that anyone who could have any access to it with real cards would jump to it in a heartbeat.
Also reprints don't mean reprint it to death and introduce them to formats where they don't belong, just like any reprint ever done. It's really nerving the way that poster ignores reality. P9 if it was ever reprinted in some alternate reality could be introduced as prizes for PT/worlds, so not many copies would be in the wild per year. Legacy reprints could be done in a similar fashion to Eternal masters.
Also, I dislike people saying that most of RL are garbage anyway as argument. Casuals would love to be able to play some of that "garbage". They are unique and deserve to be played as well. With the buyouts, not even hot garbage like Ramirez del Pietro will be at normal reach for casuals eventually. I imagine some people would like to play with it for laughs, but without paying overpriced premium for it.
Bottom line the real argument is should this be a game first or a collectible first. Can a balance be struck? I'm a collector first and I'd be ok with the RL gone. It served its purpose, it doesn't serve its original purpose now because buyouts just warp the market in an insidious way.
I understand the reason and history of the RL. Some cards like P9 should stay as a relic of the past and become antique items basically. However, some cards have no reason to be there (like retroactively adding cards from "newer" sets like Urza block). Intelligently done reprints don't hurt the value of collections.
The RL isn't a monolithic thing. It was revised a couple times. Sadly it become unnecessarily strict. I think at least the functional reprint rule could be easily abolished. It could piss off some powerful collectors, but eventually I think they would accept it as not that harmful to their "investment". Lot of cards are super valuable not because they are playable or are in the RL per se. Just look at Alpha/Beta reprints.
Letting functional reprints to be made could also make people stop bugging about the RL.
Alternatively, just banning most of the playable RL cards from Legacy or even Commander would be also a "solution", but a bad and distasteful one as well.
Sadly, our opinions matter too little in this matter. Even if 99% of the playerbase were in unison against the RL and were actively voicing it would not cause much change to it. People/organizations with real influence over WotC are the ones who pull the string and they favor status quo for RL matter. I don't see much shake up in this matter anytime ever.
First and foremost I never meant to intend that anyone opposed to the reserved list is being contrarian. My primary argument is that unless you seriously are interested in playing Vintage or Legacy, the fate of the reserve list is hardly relevant and there are way more people that complain about the reserved list than people that already play or are seriously interested in playing Legacy or Vintage.
Cost is not the only reason people aren't interested in playing Legacy and Vintage. Three or four years ago when the original dual lands were substantially less expensive than they are now and some Legacy decks had the value of what many Modern decks have today, Legacy still wasn't not a widely popular format. The format was still dying. Modern is a very successful and vibrant format and it's probably more expensive than it's ever been. Modern Jeskai costs about $1400 to build. Modern Jund costs more than $2000 to build. Players still play the format. 1v1 Commander is more popular than its ever been as a competitive format and those decks are even more expensive. Competitive 4 color control decks in 1v1 commander cost over $3000 to build.
Additionally, I believe you took my comments on dual lands out of context or perhaps I wasn't being clear. My point is that dual lands aren't essential unless you are playing at competitively in a format like Vintage or Legacy (formats a very very small percentage of Magic players play) or you are in an elite rare group of incredibly highly competitive Commander players.
I really think it is fascinating that people genuinely believe that there is a significant section of the Magic player base that would love to play Vintage if only they could afford to do so. The vast majority of players don't want to play a format where games end in two or three turns. The vast majority of players have no desire to play against broken cards like Time Walk. Not to mention there is a subsection of players that Wizards explicitly promised that they would never print Time Walk again.
You say Magic should be a game first and a collectible second. I agree and I think Wizards agrees. That's why 98% of cards are eligible for reprint and in the past 3 years, Wizards has been reprinting more often and more aggressively than in the history of the game.
For what it's worth, I'm not opposed to making exceptions to the reserved list, but I don't think it's a big deal. The fate of the reserved list will impact a very small section of players that don't already own cards on the reserved list. For the incredibly tiny minority of players that are seriously interested in playing Vintage, proxy cards or invest in them knowing that they will retain their value and continue to increase because of the reserved list.
I started Magic in high school, jobless. I could afford drafts with my allowance, and that was about it. Now that I have a real job, I'm starting to branch out into other formats, and that includes Legacy. However, I appear to be joining the wagon too late, as duals are no longer, well, "affordable". I couldn't get them when I couldn't afford them, and now that I can afford them at what they used to be, I unfortunately can not, now. I managed to pick up a playset of City of Traitors right before they spiked, as well as a playset of LEDs at pre-spike price, but that was unfortunately the extent of what I was able to procure with the massive debt I have. I feel like I'm being penalized for not being able to play the game sooner, which I had no control over. With all of this in mind, I'd very much like the Reserved List abolished.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So, I have been really playing magic since Tempest came out. I was in middle school at the time and couldn't really buy much. My parents were of the mindset that the cards would be worthless over time and wouldn't buy me anything terribly expensive, just sealed product. Cut to a few years ago when I finally had enough money to really start picking up those higher dollar cards I wanted. I have a fair collection from over the years, and have gotten lucky on discovering old worthless cards that spiked.
I don't kid myself, I have no interest in vintage or legacy whether the cards were available or not. What I do play is commander and do so in an environment where it is 4-man pods for prizes. This means no proxies. So now that I'm in the market for cards like cradle and such, I find myself in the midst of mad buyouts. I no longer can snag dual lands, cradle, even cards like Serra's Sanctum for a reasonable price anymore. These prices are absolutely insane, and anyone that isn't a big money investor or business is not going to be snagging most of these anymore. I find this is starting to create a real power gap in commander as more and more people enter the format. Suddenly cards like Tabernacle and Mox Diamond/LED immediately cause resentment at the table among newer players.
I understand the purpose and the intent of the original reserved list as a safety net when they printed chronicles and upset a large portion of invested players at the time. The game was in a bad spot and they couldn't afford to lose the support. Things have changed pretty dramatically since then. The people that would be most upset by changes to the reserved list would definitely be collectors and investors, who likely haven't supported the game directly for decades dealing solely on the secondary market. Now, while the company made this promise to keep the collector side happy, we find ourselves in an interesting position where one of the most popular formats is becoming more and more outrageously expensive with each passing month. I am totally on board with keeping power nine on reserved list and never reprinting them for history's sake, and keeping the most iconic cards in magic as the true collector's items. I, however, find it harder and harder to agree with the upholding of the reserved list as I watch more and more investors buyout older cards for the sole purpose of causing artificial price inflation to fatten their wallets at the expense of actual players. I really feel Hasbro/Wizards need to step down and reevaluate their reprint policy on the reserved list. I think masterpieces and FTV sets were a great way to reprint said cards, and was fairly annoyed when there was backlash over the premium reprints.
We're at the point where it's starting to become investors and collectors vs players who actively support the game. Hell, with all the fakes getting printed of these older cards, I think a lot of people would be happier buying newer versions with the stamp on them and such.
I'm sorry some of you guys missed the boat on Legacy and Vintage. I guess it kind of sucks but you aren't being punished and Wizards doesn't have an obligation to help players enter dying unpopular formats. Besides there are plenty of other ways to play Magic that don't involve Wizards reprinting cards the majority of the player base don't enjoy playing with and that don't involve explicitly breaking a promise.
Cards like Tabernacle are such an outlier in formats like Commander it's hardly worth mentioning. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale isn't even played in 1/10th of 1% of Commander decks.
I don't think we have to worry about them banning the list from play since the more we are discussing it the more it looks like they have basically no reason other than timing to not take the RL down. They definitely don't want the market to get so turbulent as to trigger another 1996 comic book crash and the potential damages from removing it are negligible to them long term. I think they are more worried about recovering players after the last couple of years of standard and re configuring the releases structure to bring back core sets. Call it a guess, but they were probably testing some waters with how to move the game forward and wanted to see if they could get away with low numbers of reprints. Case in point, the entire experiment fell apart and the bad R&D on top of it all lead to some standard bannings. I still don't think what they are doing this year is going to be enough. They will need to keep reprinting hardcore for at least the next two years to get things back to the way things were in RTR.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
For those who own expensive cards on the list actually playing with those cards has become more and more unrealistic. Either the cards are graded and thus unplayable in those hard cases or you have to get them out of safe storage.
Even when you have them available and playable at any time, you might not want to take them out to play with in fear of cards getting stolen or damaged.
So even for those already possessing power, those cards getting affordable reprints might actually be a boon regarding the game.
As we know from cards like Alpha/Beta/Unlimited Birds of Paradise even with 10+ reprints they retain their value because they are original cards. As long as reprints are distinguishable from the original printing there shouldn't be a problem.
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We already do it with Diamonds.
Which is a great thing. I'm now trying to think of a blood-diamond comparison to MTG lol.
You mean like Sean Dugas that was killed for his collection?
There it is. Welp, this got dark.
Diamonds aren't actually all that rare. Artificial scarcity keeps prices high, with government support of the cabal that controls supply. They've managed to control the entire official supply, such that any diamond NOT officially released is automatically assumed to be a "blood diamond" and therefore a terrible thing, no matter what the actual source of said diamond was. They've manipulated public perception such that a relatively common piece of
cardboardstone is somehow valuable, and any unauthorized pieces ofcardboardstone that are similar are E-V-I-L.Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Yep, sorry. That wasn't my intent.
It's pretty rotten how we, as a human race, have to live with this. When the latest game console is released, on day one, you can request a security guard to walk you to your car. The same goes for when the latest Nike is released. We walk to-from our LGS with thousands of dollars of cards, I'm quite honestly surprised this doesn't happen more often.
Yes, I recognize this is a first world problem, but this isn't about computers, shoes or cards. This is about someone's life. I have a sneaky suspicion that Dugas isn't the last one to have died over the value of Magic cards.
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This is a genuine question I am asking in good faith. Why are so many players obsessed over the fact that the reserved list isn't being abolished?
There are about 600 cards on the Reserved List and over 20,000 unique cards that have been printed.
That means less than 3% of Magic cards are on the reserved list. Out of that 3%, many of the cards are really crappy cards like Thelonite Monk, Keeper of Tresserhorn, Fungus Elemental and Spirit Shield. Some of these are cards that are so bad, many players would actually complain if Wizards reprinted those cards.
Yes, it would be nice if I could get an Underground Sea for my Commander deck without having to spend $530.00, but does it prevent me from building a viable Commander deck? Of course not. Are most commander players going to lose a game because they aren't running Breeding Pool instead of Tropical Island? Of course not.
The thousands of players on Reddit and Blogatog complaining about the reserved list surely can't all be Legacy and Vintage players. The amount of Legacy and Vintage players is so small in relation to other Magic players.
What decks are you just dying to build with broken cards like Black Lotus? Kitchen table decks? Why not just proxy them? Maybe it's that players are upset cards that are obviously broken like Treachery, Time Walk and Ancestral Recall won't be reprinted.
Those cards surely wouldn't be legal in formats like Standard or Modern if they were reprinted. Many of the powerful cards on the reserved list are already banned in Commander. I can't seriously believe that all the players that complain about the reserve list are Legacy/Vintage players or players that genuinely want to spend time delving into Legacy and Vintage. I believe that's the case because I have encountered several players at LGS's that complain about the reserve list and have no desire or intention of playing Legacy or Vintage. I honestly believe a lot of players just like to complain because out of the formats and the ways the vast majority of players play Magic the Gathering, one can easily build decks without relying on cards from the reserved list.
So what is it about the reserved list that drives you mad? What am I missing? What specifically do you want reprinted on the reserved list and why?
Note: I'm not a proponent or supporter of the reserved list but I don't think my life as a avid Magic enthusiast would be significantly impacted for better or for worse if the reserve list were abolished or maintained. There are numerous cards that aren't on the reserve list that I would prefer to be reprinted over cards that are on the reserved list. For what it's worth, I am a casual/semi-competitive Commander and Modern player that drafts sometimes.
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in a heartbeat, because it has so many practical applications.
The RL is 905 garbage, cards that nobody cares about at all. The remaining 10%, though are cards that are literally irreplacable. They're unique in what they do or how they do it. Sure, you can play Magus of the Tabernacle, but it's in almost every way worse than The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. You CAN play a worse alternative in almost every case, but it's a worse alternative. That's not being contrary, it's wanting to play the game.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
The dual lands are good, but absolutely not essential except for in very competitive circles of play. There are dozens of dual lands including many that enter untapped. Only for a small fraction of the most competitive players want them to significantly improve their decks.
You say it's not being contrary, but I think it is. Even though there are tens of thousands of unique cards, because a very small fraction of them aren't being reprinted, people are complaining about it even though the majority of players don't actually want those cards to be reprinted. This is especially true about the jank cards or the incredibly OP cards that almost no one wants to play against (i.e. Time Walk) Not to mention there is a sub section of players that DON'T want those cards reprinted and Wizards explicitly promised them they wouldn't reprint those cards.
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People want to play other formats, Vinatge (and legacy) have a reputation of being the "most fun" formats to ever exsist, However to play said formats you need to shell out afew grand. Your right in that most of the reserve list is trash that wouldn't even get get a 11th pick in a draft, however the few are NOT trash are the best of the best at what they do. Some so good at what they do even the watered down version are amazing T1 playable in the formats they are legal in (looking at you mox). The other draw of these formats is "they are unchanging" once you got your deck your good for life, no one is going to compain if you play your Stax deck you bought 10 years ago in a tournment today. Some new enteries shake up the format now and again but ultimately MOST decks teirs are less about power and more about popularity of OTHERS decks then the power of any given deck in question. It stright up comes down to people think the price point is too high. They WANT that stability and reliability and high power level but feel that the price of a used car is too much for it. This is made worse by Wizards explicitly NOT wanting people to play eternal formats, it goes against their final interests. This leads to a situation where people want to play the fun high power stable anything goes wild west format while at the same time wizards is actively starving that format since THEY absurdly do NOT want people playing it. The reserve list is wizards weapon to kill the older formats becuase olderformats are trying to kill wizards revenue streems. Once you play an older foramt you (on average) STOP playing standard (the cash cow) and limit playing other formats (you can only play so much).
You say that you hear people compain about it but have 0 desire to go in to legacy or vintage, I challange that assessment, Offer these people a FREE T1 combo Legacy deck with the only condition being a) you can't sell it and b) you must play at least 1 game a week with it. I bet every single one of said people would take the deck. Cost is what drive them to never play not lack of desire TO play.
I disagree here. I think vast majority of Magic the Gathering players would say that cards like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Invoke Prejudice are broken and unfun to play against. There are way more players that want Wizards to reprint Demonic Tutor or Snapcaster Mage than Time Walk or Ancestral Recall. I think a very small minority of players want to play a format as fast as Vintage or as skill intensive as Legacy. Even before dual lands were worth an arm and a leg the format was already dying in favor of other formats because people prefer to play Magic other ways.
Personally, if the dual lands were reprinted, I'd play with them, because while they are powerful, they aren't inherently broken or unfun to play against, but I certainly don't need to play with them. I once spent $150 on a judge promo Intuition for Commander because there are no other cards in the format that do anything like that card. I wouldn't spend anywhere near that on Badlands when I can play Blood Crypt and other RB lands that do practically the same thing. Unless you are playing at an incredibly competitive level, you don't need Underground Sea, and if you really are so die hard and serious, trade or buy into the cards knowing they will retain their value because they are on the reserved list rather than complaining that Wizards won't break a promise that would piss off a lot of players and help a small fraction of players. Yes, Legacy is expensive, but if someone really wants enter the format, there are some Legacy decks that can be played on a budget that rivals competitive Modern decks.
As far as Wizards wanting people not to play Eternal formats, I don't believe that. Commander is an eternal format. Commander is a format which allow cards from all Magic: The Gathering sets with the standard card back and non-silver-bordered card frames. It is also a format where the vast majority of heavily played cards aren't printed in Standard expansions (Out of the top played 100 cards in the format, only two of them are legal in Standard right now) yet Wizards is constantly promoting and supporting the format and is even introducing new cards in Standard expansions intended for this Eternal format because a ton of players enjoy playing it.
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The argument of just 600 cards being in it and people being obsessed over it would be fine if Legacy was not a real competitive format and some of the cards in the reserve list are essential with no proper substitute. Saying dual lands aren't essential is laughable at best, dishonest even. Imagine if these cards weren't in reserve list? Legacy could be more widespread. Even that absurd argument about P9, he or she ignores that Vintage is also a super fun format that anyone who could have any access to it with real cards would jump to it in a heartbeat.
Also reprints don't mean reprint it to death and introduce them to formats where they don't belong, just like any reprint ever done. It's really nerving the way that poster ignores reality. P9 if it was ever reprinted in some alternate reality could be introduced as prizes for PT/worlds, so not many copies would be in the wild per year. Legacy reprints could be done in a similar fashion to Eternal masters.
Also, I dislike people saying that most of RL are garbage anyway as argument. Casuals would love to be able to play some of that "garbage". They are unique and deserve to be played as well. With the buyouts, not even hot garbage like Ramirez del Pietro will be at normal reach for casuals eventually. I imagine some people would like to play with it for laughs, but without paying overpriced premium for it.
Bottom line the real argument is should this be a game first or a collectible first. Can a balance be struck? I'm a collector first and I'd be ok with the RL gone. It served its purpose, it doesn't serve its original purpose now because buyouts just warp the market in an insidious way.
I understand the reason and history of the RL. Some cards like P9 should stay as a relic of the past and become antique items basically. However, some cards have no reason to be there (like retroactively adding cards from "newer" sets like Urza block). Intelligently done reprints don't hurt the value of collections.
The RL isn't a monolithic thing. It was revised a couple times. Sadly it become unnecessarily strict. I think at least the functional reprint rule could be easily abolished. It could piss off some powerful collectors, but eventually I think they would accept it as not that harmful to their "investment". Lot of cards are super valuable not because they are playable or are in the RL per se. Just look at Alpha/Beta reprints.
Letting functional reprints to be made could also make people stop bugging about the RL.
Alternatively, just banning most of the playable RL cards from Legacy or even Commander would be also a "solution", but a bad and distasteful one as well.
Sadly, our opinions matter too little in this matter. Even if 99% of the playerbase were in unison against the RL and were actively voicing it would not cause much change to it. People/organizations with real influence over WotC are the ones who pull the string and they favor status quo for RL matter. I don't see much shake up in this matter anytime ever.
First and foremost I never meant to intend that anyone opposed to the reserved list is being contrarian. My primary argument is that unless you seriously are interested in playing Vintage or Legacy, the fate of the reserve list is hardly relevant and there are way more people that complain about the reserved list than people that already play or are seriously interested in playing Legacy or Vintage.
Cost is not the only reason people aren't interested in playing Legacy and Vintage. Three or four years ago when the original dual lands were substantially less expensive than they are now and some Legacy decks had the value of what many Modern decks have today, Legacy still wasn't not a widely popular format. The format was still dying. Modern is a very successful and vibrant format and it's probably more expensive than it's ever been. Modern Jeskai costs about $1400 to build. Modern Jund costs more than $2000 to build. Players still play the format. 1v1 Commander is more popular than its ever been as a competitive format and those decks are even more expensive. Competitive 4 color control decks in 1v1 commander cost over $3000 to build.
Additionally, I believe you took my comments on dual lands out of context or perhaps I wasn't being clear. My point is that dual lands aren't essential unless you are playing at competitively in a format like Vintage or Legacy (formats a very very small percentage of Magic players play) or you are in an elite rare group of incredibly highly competitive Commander players.
I really think it is fascinating that people genuinely believe that there is a significant section of the Magic player base that would love to play Vintage if only they could afford to do so. The vast majority of players don't want to play a format where games end in two or three turns. The vast majority of players have no desire to play against broken cards like Time Walk. Not to mention there is a subsection of players that Wizards explicitly promised that they would never print Time Walk again.
You say Magic should be a game first and a collectible second. I agree and I think Wizards agrees. That's why 98% of cards are eligible for reprint and in the past 3 years, Wizards has been reprinting more often and more aggressively than in the history of the game.
For what it's worth, I'm not opposed to making exceptions to the reserved list, but I don't think it's a big deal. The fate of the reserved list will impact a very small section of players that don't already own cards on the reserved list. For the incredibly tiny minority of players that are seriously interested in playing Vintage, proxy cards or invest in them knowing that they will retain their value and continue to increase because of the reserved list.
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2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't kid myself, I have no interest in vintage or legacy whether the cards were available or not. What I do play is commander and do so in an environment where it is 4-man pods for prizes. This means no proxies. So now that I'm in the market for cards like cradle and such, I find myself in the midst of mad buyouts. I no longer can snag dual lands, cradle, even cards like Serra's Sanctum for a reasonable price anymore. These prices are absolutely insane, and anyone that isn't a big money investor or business is not going to be snagging most of these anymore. I find this is starting to create a real power gap in commander as more and more people enter the format. Suddenly cards like Tabernacle and Mox Diamond/LED immediately cause resentment at the table among newer players.
I understand the purpose and the intent of the original reserved list as a safety net when they printed chronicles and upset a large portion of invested players at the time. The game was in a bad spot and they couldn't afford to lose the support. Things have changed pretty dramatically since then. The people that would be most upset by changes to the reserved list would definitely be collectors and investors, who likely haven't supported the game directly for decades dealing solely on the secondary market. Now, while the company made this promise to keep the collector side happy, we find ourselves in an interesting position where one of the most popular formats is becoming more and more outrageously expensive with each passing month. I am totally on board with keeping power nine on reserved list and never reprinting them for history's sake, and keeping the most iconic cards in magic as the true collector's items. I, however, find it harder and harder to agree with the upholding of the reserved list as I watch more and more investors buyout older cards for the sole purpose of causing artificial price inflation to fatten their wallets at the expense of actual players. I really feel Hasbro/Wizards need to step down and reevaluate their reprint policy on the reserved list. I think masterpieces and FTV sets were a great way to reprint said cards, and was fairly annoyed when there was backlash over the premium reprints.
We're at the point where it's starting to become investors and collectors vs players who actively support the game. Hell, with all the fakes getting printed of these older cards, I think a lot of people would be happier buying newer versions with the stamp on them and such.
Cards like Tabernacle are such an outlier in formats like Commander it's hardly worth mentioning. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale isn't even played in 1/10th of 1% of Commander decks.
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