Sort of unsure on my opinion on this topic. I would really like to have some fun cards like Cursed Scroll to be reprinted, so that I could play them in Modern.. but at the same time I don't want the dual lands that I bought to lose value if they became reprinted. Have bought 2 Taiga, 2 Plateau and a Savannah years ago - I don't play them anymore, just sitting safe in a binder.
And that is exactly why they should be reprinted, because people like you keep them away from those who want to play them, tightening the hold on an already low number. Plus, take a look at Eternal Masters, and cards like Shivan Dragon or Birds of Paradise. Iconic cards, even if reprinted, will always hold a good chunk of value, even if reprinted pretty often. The reprints may not, though. This "But muh value" argument has long been disproved by the way WOTC handles reprints anyway.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Sort of unsure on my opinion on this topic. I would really like to have some fun cards like Cursed Scroll to be reprinted, so that I could play them in Modern.. but at the same time I don't want the dual lands that I bought to lose value if they became reprinted. Have bought 2 Taiga, 2 Plateau and a Savannah years ago - I don't play them anymore, just sitting safe in a binder.
Even if the RL were abolished, I doubt most if any would be reprinted in a Modern-accessible set.
Oh well, I guess using Cursed Scroll in Modern is still just a dream for me.
Sort of unsure on my opinion on this topic. I would really like to have some fun cards like Cursed Scroll to be reprinted, so that I could play them in Modern.. but at the same time I don't want the dual lands that I bought to lose value if they became reprinted. Have bought 2 Taiga, 2 Plateau and a Savannah years ago - I don't play them anymore, just sitting safe in a binder.
And that is exactly why they should be reprinted, because people like you keep them away from those who want to play them, tightening the hold on an already low number. Plus, take a look at Eternal Masters, and cards like Shivan Dragon or Birds of Paradise. Iconic cards, even if reprinted, will always hold a good chunk of value, even if reprinted pretty often. The reprints may not, though. This "But muh value" argument has long been disproved by the way WOTC handles reprints anyway.
I keep them away because have switched from Legacy to Modern. Will use again if a Legacy FNM becomes available near my area.
People keep talking about value plummeting if cards get reprinted... Shivan Dragon has been reprinted into the ground, and it's not a desirable card.
Unlimited Market Price is still $50. Add on the demand of a desirable card and why would the value of a Bayou (current Unl Market Price $273) fall down that far, with a far lower number of them even including a reprint?
Looking at revised, Birds of Paradise has a MP of ~$7. Bayou is ~$150. BoP has been printed elevnty bazillion times. Why would a reprint trash Bayou's price - it's a significantly more desireable card so demand would go up, and supply would barely increase...
Had an argument with a friend a few days ago. I mentioned that since the original duals are in the reserved list, there's no risk that they will decrease in value due to a reprint. However, my friend insists that there is an MTG product where the duals are "reprinted" and someone actually got a Badlands. Is this true, and what actually is the name of this product? Thanks.
Had an argument with a friend a few days ago. I mentioned that since the original duals are in the reserved list, there's no risk that they will decrease in value due to a reprint. However, my friend insists that there is an MTG product where the duals are "reprinted" and someone actually got a Badlands. Is this true, and what actually is the name of this product? Thanks.
No such product exists.
However, the Zendikar treasures included reserved-list cards, so people did, in fact, pull reserve-listed cards from Zendikar packs (including Badlands). However, the Zendikar treasures weren't reprints; they were just old, already-printed cards that were redistributed in packs. I'm not sure if WotC did a buyback from players and stores, or if they simply had extra copies of old cards lying around. Either way, no reprinting took place.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Sort of unsure on my opinion on this topic. I would really like to have some fun cards like Cursed Scroll to be reprinted, so that I could play them in Modern.. but at the same time I don't want the dual lands that I bought to lose value if they became reprinted. Have bought 2 Taiga, 2 Plateau and a Savannah years ago - I don't play them anymore, just sitting safe in a binder.
And that is exactly why they should be reprinted, because people like you keep them away from those who want to play them, tightening the hold on an already low number. Plus, take a look at Eternal Masters, and cards like Shivan Dragon or Birds of Paradise. Iconic cards, even if reprinted, will always hold a good chunk of value, even if reprinted pretty often. The reprints may not, though. This "But muh value" argument has long been disproved by the way WOTC handles reprints anyway.
Disproved how? Like how SnT Sneak Attack and Wasteland dropping ~50%?
Had an argument with a friend a few days ago. I mentioned that since the original duals are in the reserved list, there's no risk that they will decrease in value due to a reprint. However, my friend insists that there is an MTG product where the duals are "reprinted" and someone actually got a Badlands. Is this true, and what actually is the name of this product? Thanks.
No such product exists.
However, the Zendikar treasures included reserved-list cards, so people did, in fact, pull reserve-listed cards from Zendikar packs (including Badlands). However, the Zendikar treasures weren't reprints; they were just old, already-printed cards that were redistributed in packs. I'm not sure if WotC did a buyback from players and stores, or if they simply had extra copies of old cards lying around. Either way, no reprinting took place.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up.
Must have been a big surprise for someone opening a Zendikar pack to find a mox or an original dual there - treasure indeed.
Sort of unsure on my opinion on this topic. I would really like to have some fun cards like Cursed Scroll to be reprinted, so that I could play them in Modern.. but at the same time I don't want the dual lands that I bought to lose value if they became reprinted. Have bought 2 Taiga, 2 Plateau and a Savannah years ago - I don't play them anymore, just sitting safe in a binder.
And that is exactly why they should be reprinted, because people like you keep them away from those who want to play them, tightening the hold on an already low number. Plus, take a look at Eternal Masters, and cards like Shivan Dragon or Birds of Paradise. Iconic cards, even if reprinted, will always hold a good chunk of value, even if reprinted pretty often. The reprints may not, though. This "But muh value" argument has long been disproved by the way WOTC handles reprints anyway.
Sorry, I just disagree with your assessment here. Revised Shivan Dragon is a $1 card. Birds of Paradise throughout all printings revised and beyond are about the same price ($6-$8). The Alpha/Beta versions hold their value because there are less than 4000 total copies in existence and a minuscule fraction of them are in NM shape.
Reprints do impact the value of cards printed. All we need to do is look at the price of every card in Eternal Masters from before it was printed to what it is today to see that. Hell, Legends Karakas prior to reprint was pushing $150. Today, the same card can be had for $75. EMA version? $30. And this was a "limited" print run set.
You can bet your bottom dollar that the 300,000 copies of of each revised dual land would plummet on a reprint. Oh, by the way those 300,000 copies represent about 95% of the the dual lands (1,000 for alpha, 3,000 for beta, 11,000 for unlimited, and 300,000 for revised) currently in circulation.
Sort of unsure on my opinion on this topic. I would really like to have some fun cards like Cursed Scroll to be reprinted, so that I could play them in Modern.. but at the same time I don't want the dual lands that I bought to lose value if they became reprinted. Have bought 2 Taiga, 2 Plateau and a Savannah years ago - I don't play them anymore, just sitting safe in a binder.
And that is exactly why they should be reprinted, because people like you keep them away from those who want to play them, tightening the hold on an already low number. Plus, take a look at Eternal Masters, and cards like Shivan Dragon or Birds of Paradise. Iconic cards, even if reprinted, will always hold a good chunk of value, even if reprinted pretty often. The reprints may not, though. This "But muh value" argument has long been disproved by the way WOTC handles reprints anyway.
Sorry, I just disagree with your assessment here. Revised Shivan Dragon is a $1 card. Birds of Paradise throughout all printings revised and beyond are about the same price ($6-$8). The Alpha/Beta versions hold their value because there are less than 4000 total copies in existence and a minuscule fraction of them are in NM shape.
Reprints do impact the value of cards printed. All we need to do is look at the price of every card in Eternal Masters from before it was printed to what it is today to see that. Hell, Legends Karakas prior to reprint was pushing $150. Today, the same card can be had for $75. EMA version? $30. And this was a "limited" print run set.
You can bet your bottom dollar that the 300,000 copies of of each revised dual land would plummet on a reprint. Oh, by the way those 300,000 copies represent about 95% of the the dual lands (1,000 for alpha, 3,000 for beta, 11,000 for unlimited, and 300,000 for revised) currently in circulation.
Right, now let's look at EMA cards that see heavy eternal play like, say, Force of Will? Because that approaches the amount of play ABUR duals see a lot more than Karakas. EMA lowered it's price, true, but not by a drastic margin.
Private Mod Note
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Right, now let's look at EMA cards that see heavy eternal play like, say, Force of Will? Because that approaches the amount of play ABUR duals see a lot more than Karakas. EMA lowered it's price, true, but not by a drastic margin.
There is certainly some validity to your statement about Force of Will. It's only taken about a 20% hit from when EMA was announced, and it is unquestioningly the most heavily played legacy reprint in EMA outside of Wasteland. Wasteland has taken about a 40% hit since it was announced. That would also stand to reason - Force of Will was printed at mythic, and Wasteland at rare - so twice as many copies floating around, meaning twice as big of a price hit.
Either way, from what little information we have about legacy reprints on a "limited print run", mythics on a best case scenario will lose 20% of their value, rares will lose 40% if they print to the same size. We can debate whether 20% or 40% or somewhere in between is how much lost value is too much.
Also, if Wizards does at some point decide to reprint Rishadan Port, there would be an extremely inexpensive tier 1 legacy deck floating around (relative to the rest of the format).
I do expect (This is more educated guesswork than anything) that the demand for original duals would actually rise with the release of a masters set with them included, which might've not been so much the case with FoW/Wasteland. Duals are right now probably the biggest barrier to playing the formats, and there's a certain desire from EDH players to obtain them as well. Now, if they were to be reprinted, it might actually revitalize Legacy, and more EDH players might fancy their shots at getting a few for their own decks. This kind of demand isn't really there for FoW and Wasteland, because Wasteland has a cheaper and strictly better version floating around in casual and EDH in Strip Mine, while FoW isn't really a casual card and is not seen on most EDH tables aside with more competitive combo decks, whereas each and every multicolour deck would enjoy a dual or two.
This in turn leads me to believe that the price drop the original duals would experience wouldn't be nearly as big. Keep in mind they also have an unique look to them, unique to those 10 specific cards in the entire game. A reprint would lack that specific look, which would be another reason for collectors and such to stick to the originals.
Those factors kept in mind, plus the odds of a revitalized legacy generating bigger demand, I don't think the duals would fall much. The cards that would lose most on the reserve list are the cards that see niche play, only in very specific decks. Something like Nether Void or Moat would take a much larger hit. Something like Gaea's Cradle would probably be on par with FoW/Wasteland as far as drops go.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I do expect (This is more educated guesswork than anything) that the demand for original duals would actually rise with the release of a masters set with them included, which might've not been so much the case with FoW/Wasteland. Duals are right now probably the biggest barrier to playing the formats, and there's a certain desire from EDH players to obtain them as well. Now, if they were to be reprinted, it might actually revitalize Legacy, and more EDH players might fancy their shots at getting a few for their own decks. This kind of demand isn't really there for FoW and Wasteland, because Wasteland has a cheaper and strictly better version floating around in casual and EDH in Strip Mine, while FoW isn't really a casual card and is not seen on most EDH tables aside with more competitive combo decks, whereas each and every multicolour deck would enjoy a dual or two.
This in turn leads me to believe that the price drop the original duals would experience wouldn't be nearly as big. Keep in mind they also have an unique look to them, unique to those 10 specific cards in the entire game. A reprint would lack that specific look, which would be another reason for collectors and such to stick to the originals.
Those factors kept in mind, plus the odds of a revitalized legacy generating bigger demand, I don't think the duals would fall much. The cards that would lose most on the reserve list are the cards that see niche play, only in very specific decks. Something like Nether Void or Moat would take a much larger hit. Something like Gaea's Cradle would probably be on par with FoW/Wasteland as far as drops go.
I can certainly see your point of view on this, and it is entirely possible what you say would happen. I certainly agree that reprints of the niche cards (The Abyss would also qualify) would tank on reprint.
However, I just don't see increased interest in any of these cards unless prices drop, and significantly at that. $300 for a dual land is an extreme barrier. $200? Probably more of the same. $150? You would probably get more interest if you tank the price 50%. Again, it's all speculation at what price it would take to reinvigorate the format. One thing I strongly believe is that a reprint of any kind would negatively impact prices. The size of the price drop would be dependent on the number of interested parties, the number of reprints, and what each individual persons buy-in point would be. Too many factors to accurately predict IMO.
I do expect (This is more educated guesswork than anything) that the demand for original duals would actually rise with the release of a masters set with them included, which might've not been so much the case with FoW/Wasteland. Duals are right now probably the biggest barrier to playing the formats, and there's a certain desire from EDH players to obtain them as well. Now, if they were to be reprinted, it might actually revitalize Legacy, and more EDH players might fancy their shots at getting a few for their own decks. This kind of demand isn't really there for FoW and Wasteland, because Wasteland has a cheaper and strictly better version floating around in casual and EDH in Strip Mine, while FoW isn't really a casual card and is not seen on most EDH tables aside with more competitive combo decks, whereas each and every multicolour deck would enjoy a dual or two.
This in turn leads me to believe that the price drop the original duals would experience wouldn't be nearly as big. Keep in mind they also have an unique look to them, unique to those 10 specific cards in the entire game. A reprint would lack that specific look, which would be another reason for collectors and such to stick to the originals.
Those factors kept in mind, plus the odds of a revitalized legacy generating bigger demand, I don't think the duals would fall much. The cards that would lose most on the reserve list are the cards that see niche play, only in very specific decks. Something like Nether Void or Moat would take a much larger hit. Something like Gaea's Cradle would probably be on par with FoW/Wasteland as far as drops go.
I can certainly see your point of view on this, and it is entirely possible what you say would happen. I certainly agree that reprints of the niche cards (The Abyss would also qualify) would tank on reprint.
However, I just don't see increased interest in any of these cards unless prices drop, and significantly at that. $300 for a dual land is an extreme barrier. $200? Probably more of the same. $150? You would probably get more interest if you tank the price 50%. Again, it's all speculation at what price it would take to reinvigorate the format. One thing I strongly believe is that a reprint of any kind would negatively impact prices. The size of the price drop would be dependent on the number of interested parties, the number of reprints, and what each individual persons buy-in point would be. Too many factors to accurately predict IMO.
True, but thanks to Modern Masters (look at Tarmogoyf!) and Eternal Masters we do have a bit of a baseline to work with as to how it'd impact prices. And I maintain the point that prices would not crash enough (At least not of the originals) to warrant actual panic. People who bought in during the past two, three years might suffer a hit, but people who already been sitting on them for 10 years won't feel it.
As far as the higher interest bit; this would be in good part due to simply being able to support more legacy players. You gave the number of 300,000 available of each dual land, give or take. This means that less than 100.000 people can have a full playset of any given dual. Means there's an artificial barrier as to how many people can actually play high-end legacy decks. Simply adding duals to the pool removes that barrier to an extent. Which, combined with the possibility of further reprints and reprints of random other high-price cards that have niche applications, would certainly attract more people.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I do expect (This is more educated guesswork than anything) that the demand for original duals would actually rise with the release of a masters set with them included, which might've not been so much the case with FoW/Wasteland. Duals are right now probably the biggest barrier to playing the formats, and there's a certain desire from EDH players to obtain them as well. Now, if they were to be reprinted, it might actually revitalize Legacy, and more EDH players might fancy their shots at getting a few for their own decks. This kind of demand isn't really there for FoW and Wasteland, because Wasteland has a cheaper and strictly better version floating around in casual and EDH in Strip Mine, while FoW isn't really a casual card and is not seen on most EDH tables aside with more competitive combo decks, whereas each and every multicolour deck would enjoy a dual or two.
This in turn leads me to believe that the price drop the original duals would experience wouldn't be nearly as big. Keep in mind they also have an unique look to them, unique to those 10 specific cards in the entire game. A reprint would lack that specific look, which would be another reason for collectors and such to stick to the originals.
Those factors kept in mind, plus the odds of a revitalized legacy generating bigger demand, I don't think the duals would fall much. The cards that would lose most on the reserve list are the cards that see niche play, only in very specific decks. Something like Nether Void or Moat would take a much larger hit. Something like Gaea's Cradle would probably be on par with FoW/Wasteland as far as drops go.
I can certainly see your point of view on this, and it is entirely possible what you say would happen. I certainly agree that reprints of the niche cards (The Abyss would also qualify) would tank on reprint.
However, I just don't see increased interest in any of these cards unless prices drop, and significantly at that. $300 for a dual land is an extreme barrier. $200? Probably more of the same. $150? You would probably get more interest if you tank the price 50%. Again, it's all speculation at what price it would take to reinvigorate the format. One thing I strongly believe is that a reprint of any kind would negatively impact prices. The size of the price drop would be dependent on the number of interested parties, the number of reprints, and what each individual persons buy-in point would be. Too many factors to accurately predict IMO.
True, but thanks to Modern Masters (look at Tarmogoyf!) and Eternal Masters we do have a bit of a baseline to work with as to how it'd impact prices. And I maintain the point that prices would not crash enough (At least not of the originals) to warrant actual panic. People who bought in during the past two, three years might suffer a hit, but people who already been sitting on them for 10 years won't feel it.
As far as the higher interest bit; this would be in good part due to simply being able to support more legacy players. You gave the number of 300,000 available of each dual land, give or take. This means that less than 100.000 people can have a full playset of any given dual. Means there's an artificial barrier as to how many people can actually play high-end legacy decks. Simply adding duals to the pool removes that barrier to an extent. Which, combined with the possibility of further reprints and reprints of random other high-price cards that have niche applications, would certainly attract more people.
I agree with sealteamfive. If you don't reprint enough to cause a drastic price drop in duals there's no point in reprinting them in the first place. SCG would buy them up and keep selling that at 80+90% original dual prices. The only reason to reprint the duals would be to tank the price.
True, but thanks to Modern Masters (look at Tarmogoyf!) and Eternal Masters we do have a bit of a baseline to work with as to how it'd impact prices. And I maintain the point that prices would not crash enough (At least not of the originals) to warrant actual panic. People who bought in during the past two, three years might suffer a hit, but people who already been sitting on them for 10 years won't feel it.
As far as the higher interest bit; this would be in good part due to simply being able to support more legacy players. You gave the number of 300,000 available of each dual land, give or take. This means that less than 100.000 people can have a full playset of any given dual. Means there's an artificial barrier as to how many people can actually play high-end legacy decks. Simply adding duals to the pool removes that barrier to an extent. Which, combined with the possibility of further reprints and reprints of random other high-price cards that have niche applications, would certainly attract more people.
I agree with sealteamfive. If you don't reprint enough to cause a drastic price drop in duals there's no point in reprinting them in the first place. SCG would buy them up and keep selling that at 80+90% original dual prices. The only reason to reprint the duals would be to tank the price.
At this point if someone wants to start playing Legacy, they can buy any card they want right now. The entry cost if you own nothing is between $1000 and $3000 for a tier 1 legacy deck. The number of cards in circulation doesn't impact that. The barrier isn't the physical number of cards - it's price. Now we can discuss that price and availability go hand-in-hand and that is certainly true. But if someone wanted to pick up legacy and build a deck tomorrow, that could be done on TCGplayer or any number of sites right now.
The way that you would attract more people to the format would be to lower the barrier to entry. This means lowering the price of cards. If Wizards created EMA 2 with reserve list only cards, charged $100/pack and effectively added supply without lowering the price of cards, I doubt very strongly that we would have an increase in interest in Legacy.
/edit Something else I was thinking about was the actual price of key reserve list cards. Prior to the EMA announcement, many RL staples were far cheaper than they are today. Underground Sea was $260, but could easily be bought in MP condition for as low as $215. Tropical Island was $165. Even pricing at that level wasn't enough to entice people into the format. What this tells me is that in order to really get interest, you would have to significantly tank pricing to get enough interest in the format to have people buying in.
Why do people hoard these cards.. the prices are so insane it's laughable. I hope the reserve list goes away. I just want to see the look on these guys' faces. I'll proceed to buy all the dual lands I want for 1/20 the amount they paid. That's what greed gets them.
Public Mod Note
(osieorb18):
Warning for Trolling.
Why do people hoard these cards.. the prices are so insane it's laughable. I hope the reserve list goes away. I just want to see the look on these guys' faces. I'll proceed to buy all the dual lands I want for 1/20 the amount they paid. That's what greed gets them.
Greed? I just want the cards I need to play deck I want in the format I want. The reserve list was no secret, we've known for like 20 years that duals wouldn't ever get reprinted. The prices really aren't that insane for someone who's willing to work and save. That's what laziness gets you. The problem is all these people who think they're entitled to just get handed what everyone else, save for the people who have been playing since the 90's, has had to work for. It took me years to build (and foil) my legacy deck. Lots of trading and grinding and selling and saving and sacrifices. Suck it up, get a job, eat some ramen, trade your Boros Reckoners before rotation. It's not hard, it's just not the instant gratification you seek. If anything, THAT'S greedy.
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Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Why do people hoard these cards.. the prices are so insane it's laughable. I hope the reserve list goes away. I just want to see the look on these guys' faces. I'll proceed to buy all the dual lands I want for 1/20 the amount they paid. That's what greed gets them.
Greed? I just want the cards I need to play deck I want in the format I want. The reserve list was no secret, we've known for like 20 years that duals wouldn't ever get reprinted. The prices really aren't that insane for someone who's willing to work and save. That's what laziness gets you. The problem is all these people who think they're entitled to just get handed what everyone else, save for the people who have been playing since the 90's, has had to work for. It took me years to build (and foil) my legacy deck. Lots of trading and grinding and selling and saving and sacrifices. Suck it up, get a job, eat some ramen, trade your Boros Reckoners before rotation. It's not hard, it's just not the instant gratification you seek. If anything, THAT'S greedy.
Why does it HAVE to be such hard work to get into the format though? That's the status quo and what you're used to, but doesn't HAVE to be the case. How can the format grow with that mindset? Having to put thousands of dollars into a card game stops 99% of new blood from entering the scene. I personally don't know a single legacy/vintage player and I've moved multiple states and attended 5 different LGS's. Something has to change, whether you like it or not, Mr. Gatekeeper.
Public Mod Note
(osieorb18):
Warning for Trolling.
Why can't that something be you getting a job? That's what everyone else does Mr. Entitlement. Somehow despite these prices the format is still popular, still growing, and still played in a good chunk of the civilized world. GP Louisville was a huge success despite the lack of coverage it received. Is it more expensive to buy into? Sure, but a lot of the same people whining ahout the price of legacy are the same ones willing to blow $300 every three months on keeping their standard decks up to date and another $100 as they build their $800 Modern decks. Is Legacy just a bridge too far for you so you feel the need to accuse people who already have the cards greedy gatekeepers?
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(osieorb18):
Warning for Trolling.
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Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Give me a break. What's entitled about wanting to buy in to a format at a lower price point, asking the company that produces the game pieces to actually print more to satisfy demand (and in the process make money off of their IP)? Seems like some kosher capitalism.
I own Legacy cards, including three-figure reserve list staples. I saved for many of them, bought them on sale, or did hardcore binder-grinding to acquire them. I'm not rich, so it took a lot of time and effort. But now, I'm miffed, because the price barrier of Legacy, which I managed to hurdle over, is making it hard for me to find games over the past year or so. I used to be able to walk into local stores and expected to be able to jam some 1.5. Not anymore. "Too expensive" is usually the response. I want to play Legacy, so I'm very interested in seeing these barriers go the way of the Berlin Wall, so I have more people to play with.
Is that entitled? Maybe. Perhaps I'm not doing enough. I mean, I could completely uproot myself from family/friends/work and move to a Legacy Mecca, because big life decisions made around a children's card game seems like very rational behavior. Yeah, that's the ticket...I need to do more! I need to be less entitled and work harder!
Can't have the price of Legacy staples drop because then some people might actually lose exchange-value on their hobby implements that they are deriving use-value from. Because that's how hobbies work, you never lose money pursuing them. Or maybe you do, and a certain subset of Magic players feel, dare I say, entitled to a low-risk financial instrument in addition to their hobby?
Or maybe there's a certain class of people who feel that others should be denied the ability to play a format because they stand to lose
Somehow despite these prices the format is still popular, still growing, and still played in a good chunk of the civilized world.
It's growing...but not at a fast enough rate, compared to other formats, for most large stores and WotC to give it major support. Yeah, sure, everything's fine, Bahgdad Bob.
Sure, but a lot of the same people whining ahout the price of legacy are the same ones willing to blow $300 every three months on keeping their standard decks up to date and another $100 as they build their $800 Modern decks. Is Legacy just a bridge too far for you so you feel the need to accuse people who already have the cards greedy gatekeepers?
Standard as a sucker's game is a common meme on Magic parts and many of the players who complain about price are operating well within their budgets; just look at all the sigs where people have their decks listed and see how many are explicitly budget or implicitly so (i.e. Tier Fun decks that will never top 8 a major event).
You're building a total strawman. Many of the complainers could easily be playing budget EDH lists as their primary Magic activity. Hell, that's what most of the folks at my LGS(s) do.
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So, while this argument about lowering prices so more people can play is certainly a valid one, there is a balance between the collectibility of this game as well. Its no secret that some of the most sought after cards from that standpoint are also legacy staples. Like it or not, dual lands, Tabernacle, Candelabra, Moat, Nether Void, The Abyss, Mana Drain, etc are all highly collectible as well as legacy playable. Reprinting would hurt the collectible side.
There are no right or wrong answers here, just everyone's opinions.
So, while this argument about lowering prices so more people can play is certainly a valid one, there is a balance between the collectibility of this game as well. Its no secret that some of the most sought after cards from that standpoint are also legacy staples. Like it or not, dual lands, Tabernacle, Candelabra, Moat, Nether Void, The Abyss, Mana Drain, etc are all highly collectible as well as legacy playable. Reprinting would hurt the collectible side.
There are no right or wrong answers here, just everyone's opinions.
As has been brought up many times already, the "collectible" value is being conflated with the playability. Check out the prices of Alpha cards: real collectibles. The value of them as collectibles is why a Revised Shivan dragon is bulk, but an Alpha one is a $700 piece of cardboard. Same with things like Birds of paradise: been reprinted many many times, but the original one still holds value. THOSE are collectibles. Alpha Underground Sea is a collectible. Revised Underground Sea holds value only because of playability and artificial scarcity. Reprinting will remove "artificial scarcity" from the equation, and the prices for the real collectible versions would stabilize just fine. Would they lose value? Certainly, they would lose the inflated value of being necessary for playing certain decks, but collectible value is a real thing (Ask the Shivan Dragons.)
Abolishing the RL would hurt investors and speculators short-term. I know my collection would take a big hit, value-wise, but, as long as I'm not planning on cashing out, it's a net positive to me: I could actually play Legacy games with people. My cards would get played! I could create (or re-create) some of the decks I grew up playing, ones that aren't ever going to be legal anywhere but Legacy ever again!
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
So, while this argument about lowering prices so more people can play is certainly a valid one, there is a balance between the collectibility of this game as well. Its no secret that some of the most sought after cards from that standpoint are also legacy staples. Like it or not, dual lands, Tabernacle, Candelabra, Moat, Nether Void, The Abyss, Mana Drain, etc are all highly collectible as well as legacy playable. Reprinting would hurt the collectible side.
There are no right or wrong answers here, just everyone's opinions.
As has been brought up many times already, the "collectible" value is being conflated with the playability. Check out the prices of Alpha cards: real collectibles. The value of them as collectibles is why a Revised Shivan dragon is bulk, but an Alpha one is a $700 piece of cardboard. Same with things like Birds of paradise: been reprinted many many times, but the original one still holds value. THOSE are collectibles. Alpha Underground Sea is a collectible. Revised Underground Sea holds value only because of playability and artificial scarcity. Reprinting will remove "artificial scarcity" from the equation, and the prices for the real collectible versions would stabilize just fine. Would they lose value? Certainly, they would lose the inflated value of being necessary for playing certain decks, but collectible value is a real thing (Ask the Shivan Dragons.)
Abolishing the RL would hurt investors and speculators short-term. I know my collection would take a big hit, value-wise, but, as long as I'm not planning on cashing out, it's a net positive to me: I could actually play Legacy games with people. My cards would get played! I could create (or re-create) some of the decks I grew up playing, ones that aren't ever going to be legal anywhere but Legacy ever again!
As I have responded to you many times on this, collectibility is in the eye of the beholder. Revised Underground Sea may not be a collectible in your eyes, but for the great majority of us who cannot afford a $5000 beta version, it is as collectible as we can get. We continue to go round and round on this. You only look at this through the eyes of a player with almost complete disregard to anyone who is a collector.
Also, as I stated earlier the artificial scarcity argument is patently false. Anyone who wants to buy these cards can do so on TCG or any other site. It isn't artificial scarcity that keeps people out of Legacy, it's price. If Wizards printed an EMA 2 with nothing but reserve list cards at $100/pack and essentially raised supply without decreasing price do you really believe that there would be a massive influx of players into Legacy?
Give me a break. What's entitled about wanting to buy in to a format at a lower price point, asking the company that produces the game pieces to actually print more to satisfy demand (and in the process make money off of their IP)? Seems like some kosher capitalism.
I own Legacy cards, including three-figure reserve list staples. I saved for many of them, bought them on sale, or did hardcore binder-grinding to acquire them. I'm not rich, so it took a lot of time and effort. But now, I'm miffed, because the price barrier of Legacy, which I managed to hurdle over, is making it hard for me to find games over the past year or so. I used to be able to walk into local stores and expected to be able to jam some 1.5. Not anymore. "Too expensive" is usually the response. I want to play Legacy, so I'm very interested in seeing these barriers go the way of the Berlin Wall, so I have more people to play with.
Is that entitled? Maybe. Perhaps I'm not doing enough. I mean, I could completely uproot myself from family/friends/work and move to a Legacy Mecca, because big life decisions made around a children's card game seems like very rational behavior. Yeah, that's the ticket...I need to do more! I need to be less entitled and work harder!
Can't have the price of Legacy staples drop because then some people might actually lose exchange-value on their hobby implements that they are deriving use-value from. Because that's how hobbies work, you never lose money pursuing them. Or maybe you do, and a certain subset of Magic players feel, dare I say, entitled to a low-risk financial instrument in addition to their hobby?
1. You act like my "Mr. Entitlement" comment was directed at you. It wasn't, it was a response to calling me "Mr. Gatekeeper" for no other reason than the same thing you're guilty of- owning Legacy cards. There's nothing entitled about wanting to buy in to a lower price point. I never said that. Entitlement comes from the notion that we should be expecting WotC to suddenly change course on a major cornerstone of one of their operational policies that has been in place 20+ years on a wish and a whim, not for the purpose of growing the format, but out of sheer spite for the people who put the effort in to play it, alongside the notion that those who own a bunch of legacy cards are now "hoarders and gatekeepers":
I hope the reserve list goes away. I just want to see the look on these guys' faces. I'll proceed to buy all the dual lands I want for 1/20 the amount they paid. That's what greed gets them.
Entitlement comes from completely ignoring reality because we don't like it, and wailing at the sky "WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE THIS HARD FOR ME? I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO FACE THE SAME REALITY EVERYONE ELSE DOES!"
Why does it HAVE to be such hard work to get into the format though?
that's the reality. This is the world's most popular collectible card game, it's a little beyond a "children's card game" at this point. At some point you've stopped playing around with "Monopoly", and are now looking to play with other people who found Monopoly much more interesting when the actual depression was occurring, and so only play with original boards and game pieces minted from that era.
You're pursuing some of the most powerful pieces of the game that were printed in limited quantities over 20+ years ago. It's going to cost money, there may not be a ton of people who are also interested in your quest, and it's not going to be an overnight process. The RL exists. It's a thing. It's been a thing. This is why. You know this.
Still, WotC has made an easier path by offering MtGO. If all you genuinely care about is playing, and don't want to pay the paper prices, go play there. In another 20 years, that might be where we're all playing anyway. Hate the client? Fine, go complain about that, that's something WotC can actually address and fix, unlike the RL. You have a much better shot of getting a better MtGO client than you do of getting rid of the RL. I mean, honestly, it should be pretty clear at this point you have a better chance of D.B. Cooper deciding he wants to come out of hiding and wants YOU to teach him how to play Magic than you do of the RL getting broken. People who want to play Legacy but don't have opponents or want to put that work in (and it is a LOT of work) should be directing their energy at the MTGO client, that's actually a viable resolution that can eventually be fixed.
Whether you agree with the reserve list or not has nothing to do with the fact that it's here, it's been made abundantly clear for an extended period of time that it's not going anywhere. Does it suck? Yes. But people act like it's been a super secret that suddenly got spoiled and reserve list cards are expensive as a result of this are a completely unforeseen development. "Oh man! I can't believe that the most powerful playing pieces for the world's most popular CCG that can never be reprinted and are 25+ years old can't just be opened out of a booster pack for $2.95 anymore! What do they cost now, like $10? No? Well, does the price change any if I complain a whole lot about it? Will I suddenly own the cards if I tear my hair and cut myself in the streets outside WotC's office?"
Expecting that WotC will suddenly look down upon poor ericlimeback and see his plight, then look at the reserve list and say "wow, you know, we were all for this RL thing until ericlimeback brought this to our attention, let's just torch it because he's made a unique argument that we've never, ever been presented with before and shower him in dual lands so he can bathe in the tears of everyone else who sucked it up, accepted that this is the way things are, and decided they still wanted to play badly enough to go down that road. He really deserves it."
2. I don't feel any pity for people who use Magic as a stock market and lose money in it. My understanding is that of those that do, most don't feel any for themselves either when they lose money. It is a game, first and foremost, and those treating it as Wall Street are doing so at great risk. Having said that:
There are not many games I would pony up $1k+ to play. Hell, there's a lot of video games I like but want to wait till they go on sale because I don't like spending $60 on a lot of games.
So why do I play a format of a game where a single piece is worth twice that or more? Why did I acquire them? Why didn't I choose a different format? Here's the rub. I did so because it's a one shot investment. Not into my bank account, but into the game itself. If I ever tire of deck, I can trade it for other playing pieces worth just as much value. If I ever tire of the game, I can get most of what I paid into it back- it's an expensive, but safe investment. I had minimal qualms about grinding for duals and LEDs and a Tabernacle, but I have major qualms about decklists that call for Tarmogoyfs and LotV and the modern format in general for this reason. These cards are just a matter of time before 'goyf succumbs to a combination of reprints and gradual obsolescence and LoTV gets Do I wish I could be playing the game for a fraction of the cost with more people and less hurdles? Sure. But I accept that that's (again reiterating this) not reality. Basing my decisions of format choice in reality is not entitlement, it's simply choosing to operate within the outlined parameters of the way the company that produces that game has said it will be produced, and has repeatedly underscored and further tightened down on that stance. It's a decision based on reality. I don't really like the reality myself, but that doesn't change it any, but I can still choose how to operate within it, or to not be part of it, but choosing to not be part of it, complaining about it, and arguing that people who choose to play within it are greedy hoarders and gatekeepers that deserve to be spited is just insane.
Or maybe there's a certain class of people who feel that others should be denied the ability to play a format because they stand to lose
This is equally insane though. To suggest that people support the reserve list so they can sit on their mountains of $100 cards and declare themselves the winners of a game that can't be played because they have all the pieces-or whatever the line of reasoning is that's prompting you to make this argument-is just completely absurd. There's plenty of competition as it stands, and in a format where you can die because you tapped the wrong thing out of order, the notion that that this argument holds any merit with people who, I assure you, are quite unafraid of losing, is just insane. The people who have climbed the hurdles usually have enough love of the game to be as invested in it skill-wise as they are financially. If the skies opened up and rained legacy staples down on everyone tomorrow, I think the highest level competitors will still be the ones who played before the Great Dual Downpour of 2017. I mean, I get that some people value the investment they made into their cards more highly than others, that's fine, but to suggest that perhaps supporters of the RL are doing so because they fear competition......do you have ANY basis for this in reality at all?
Standard as a sucker's game is a common meme on Magic parts and many of the players who complain about price are operating well within their budgets; just look at all the sigs where people have their decks listed and see how many are explicitly budget or implicitly so (i.e. Tier Fun decks that will never top 8 a major event).
You're building a total strawman. Many of the complainers could easily be playing budget EDH lists as their primary Magic activity. Hell, that's what most of the folks at my LGS(s) do.
Fair enough, some of them are. And I can probably find plenty of examples of my case in point as well, I can think of a few at my LGS. But that meme exists for a reason. I don't really think it's a "sucker's" game persay, Standard can be a fulfilling format that challenges you to work within a more confined cardpool in an ever-shifting landscape, dramatic improvements to make standard more affordable have started to show, and I don't hate standard just for being "not legacy." I don't actually hate the concept of standard anyway, but I find it too prone to suddenly going from good to bad on a whim and the continual grind to keep up with it isn't my bag. So instead of complaining about it....I just choose not to play it. I don't even think its pricetag is that bad anymore, for a recurring expense, it's gotten a lot more reasonable and you can build a good deck for between $100-$250. I just don't like the format itself too often.
Then you have Modern's pricetag for its top tier decks that meets or exceeds some Legacy lists, and comes close to matching many more. I can't justify that kind of expense on cards that- by and large- will almost certainly see a reprint, when I could be playing a more diverse format, with more powerful cards, that have a pretty much ironclad "won't get reprinted" clause. Again, don't get me wrong, I understand why Modern would appeal to some, it's just not my cup of tea, and I'd rather put that kind of cash into game pieces that I know I can cash out for similar value if I leave the game.
Still, it seems odd to me that people who stick to "tier fun" decks, as you describe, and budget edh lists would have any place to complain about Legacy being too expensive to begin with. I mean, if all you're going to play is "tier fun" decks and budget edh, it seems that Legacy's pricetag is a bit like someone who only rides a bike and drives a Volvo complaining about the cost of a new Tesla.
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And that is exactly why they should be reprinted, because people like you keep them away from those who want to play them, tightening the hold on an already low number. Plus, take a look at Eternal Masters, and cards like Shivan Dragon or Birds of Paradise. Iconic cards, even if reprinted, will always hold a good chunk of value, even if reprinted pretty often. The reprints may not, though. This "But muh value" argument has long been disproved by the way WOTC handles reprints anyway.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Oh well, I guess using Cursed Scroll in Modern is still just a dream for me.
I keep them away because have switched from Legacy to Modern. Will use again if a Legacy FNM becomes available near my area.
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Unlimited Market Price is still $50. Add on the demand of a desirable card and why would the value of a Bayou (current Unl Market Price $273) fall down that far, with a far lower number of them even including a reprint?
Looking at revised, Birds of Paradise has a MP of ~$7. Bayou is ~$150. BoP has been printed elevnty bazillion times. Why would a reprint trash Bayou's price - it's a significantly more desireable card so demand would go up, and supply would barely increase...
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However, the Zendikar treasures included reserved-list cards, so people did, in fact, pull reserve-listed cards from Zendikar packs (including Badlands). However, the Zendikar treasures weren't reprints; they were just old, already-printed cards that were redistributed in packs. I'm not sure if WotC did a buyback from players and stores, or if they simply had extra copies of old cards lying around. Either way, no reprinting took place.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Disproved how? Like how SnT Sneak Attack and Wasteland dropping ~50%?
Ok, thanks for clearing that up.
Must have been a big surprise for someone opening a Zendikar pack to find a mox or an original dual there - treasure indeed.
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Sorry, I just disagree with your assessment here. Revised Shivan Dragon is a $1 card. Birds of Paradise throughout all printings revised and beyond are about the same price ($6-$8). The Alpha/Beta versions hold their value because there are less than 4000 total copies in existence and a minuscule fraction of them are in NM shape.
Reprints do impact the value of cards printed. All we need to do is look at the price of every card in Eternal Masters from before it was printed to what it is today to see that. Hell, Legends Karakas prior to reprint was pushing $150. Today, the same card can be had for $75. EMA version? $30. And this was a "limited" print run set.
You can bet your bottom dollar that the 300,000 copies of of each revised dual land would plummet on a reprint. Oh, by the way those 300,000 copies represent about 95% of the the dual lands (1,000 for alpha, 3,000 for beta, 11,000 for unlimited, and 300,000 for revised) currently in circulation.
Right, now let's look at EMA cards that see heavy eternal play like, say, Force of Will? Because that approaches the amount of play ABUR duals see a lot more than Karakas. EMA lowered it's price, true, but not by a drastic margin.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
There is certainly some validity to your statement about Force of Will. It's only taken about a 20% hit from when EMA was announced, and it is unquestioningly the most heavily played legacy reprint in EMA outside of Wasteland. Wasteland has taken about a 40% hit since it was announced. That would also stand to reason - Force of Will was printed at mythic, and Wasteland at rare - so twice as many copies floating around, meaning twice as big of a price hit.
Either way, from what little information we have about legacy reprints on a "limited print run", mythics on a best case scenario will lose 20% of their value, rares will lose 40% if they print to the same size. We can debate whether 20% or 40% or somewhere in between is how much lost value is too much.
Also, if Wizards does at some point decide to reprint Rishadan Port, there would be an extremely inexpensive tier 1 legacy deck floating around (relative to the rest of the format).
This in turn leads me to believe that the price drop the original duals would experience wouldn't be nearly as big. Keep in mind they also have an unique look to them, unique to those 10 specific cards in the entire game. A reprint would lack that specific look, which would be another reason for collectors and such to stick to the originals.
Those factors kept in mind, plus the odds of a revitalized legacy generating bigger demand, I don't think the duals would fall much. The cards that would lose most on the reserve list are the cards that see niche play, only in very specific decks. Something like Nether Void or Moat would take a much larger hit. Something like Gaea's Cradle would probably be on par with FoW/Wasteland as far as drops go.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I can certainly see your point of view on this, and it is entirely possible what you say would happen. I certainly agree that reprints of the niche cards (The Abyss would also qualify) would tank on reprint.
However, I just don't see increased interest in any of these cards unless prices drop, and significantly at that. $300 for a dual land is an extreme barrier. $200? Probably more of the same. $150? You would probably get more interest if you tank the price 50%. Again, it's all speculation at what price it would take to reinvigorate the format. One thing I strongly believe is that a reprint of any kind would negatively impact prices. The size of the price drop would be dependent on the number of interested parties, the number of reprints, and what each individual persons buy-in point would be. Too many factors to accurately predict IMO.
True, but thanks to Modern Masters (look at Tarmogoyf!) and Eternal Masters we do have a bit of a baseline to work with as to how it'd impact prices. And I maintain the point that prices would not crash enough (At least not of the originals) to warrant actual panic. People who bought in during the past two, three years might suffer a hit, but people who already been sitting on them for 10 years won't feel it.
As far as the higher interest bit; this would be in good part due to simply being able to support more legacy players. You gave the number of 300,000 available of each dual land, give or take. This means that less than 100.000 people can have a full playset of any given dual. Means there's an artificial barrier as to how many people can actually play high-end legacy decks. Simply adding duals to the pool removes that barrier to an extent. Which, combined with the possibility of further reprints and reprints of random other high-price cards that have niche applications, would certainly attract more people.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I agree with sealteamfive. If you don't reprint enough to cause a drastic price drop in duals there's no point in reprinting them in the first place. SCG would buy them up and keep selling that at 80+90% original dual prices. The only reason to reprint the duals would be to tank the price.
At this point if someone wants to start playing Legacy, they can buy any card they want right now. The entry cost if you own nothing is between $1000 and $3000 for a tier 1 legacy deck. The number of cards in circulation doesn't impact that. The barrier isn't the physical number of cards - it's price. Now we can discuss that price and availability go hand-in-hand and that is certainly true. But if someone wanted to pick up legacy and build a deck tomorrow, that could be done on TCGplayer or any number of sites right now.
The way that you would attract more people to the format would be to lower the barrier to entry. This means lowering the price of cards. If Wizards created EMA 2 with reserve list only cards, charged $100/pack and effectively added supply without lowering the price of cards, I doubt very strongly that we would have an increase in interest in Legacy.
/edit Something else I was thinking about was the actual price of key reserve list cards. Prior to the EMA announcement, many RL staples were far cheaper than they are today. Underground Sea was $260, but could easily be bought in MP condition for as low as $215. Tropical Island was $165. Even pricing at that level wasn't enough to entice people into the format. What this tells me is that in order to really get interest, you would have to significantly tank pricing to get enough interest in the format to have people buying in.
Greed? I just want the cards I need to play deck I want in the format I want. The reserve list was no secret, we've known for like 20 years that duals wouldn't ever get reprinted. The prices really aren't that insane for someone who's willing to work and save. That's what laziness gets you. The problem is all these people who think they're entitled to just get handed what everyone else, save for the people who have been playing since the 90's, has had to work for. It took me years to build (and foil) my legacy deck. Lots of trading and grinding and selling and saving and sacrifices. Suck it up, get a job, eat some ramen, trade your Boros Reckoners before rotation. It's not hard, it's just not the instant gratification you seek. If anything, THAT'S greedy.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Why does it HAVE to be such hard work to get into the format though? That's the status quo and what you're used to, but doesn't HAVE to be the case. How can the format grow with that mindset? Having to put thousands of dollars into a card game stops 99% of new blood from entering the scene. I personally don't know a single legacy/vintage player and I've moved multiple states and attended 5 different LGS's. Something has to change, whether you like it or not, Mr. Gatekeeper.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Give me a break. What's entitled about wanting to buy in to a format at a lower price point, asking the company that produces the game pieces to actually print more to satisfy demand (and in the process make money off of their IP)? Seems like some kosher capitalism.
I own Legacy cards, including three-figure reserve list staples. I saved for many of them, bought them on sale, or did hardcore binder-grinding to acquire them. I'm not rich, so it took a lot of time and effort. But now, I'm miffed, because the price barrier of Legacy, which I managed to hurdle over, is making it hard for me to find games over the past year or so. I used to be able to walk into local stores and expected to be able to jam some 1.5. Not anymore. "Too expensive" is usually the response. I want to play Legacy, so I'm very interested in seeing these barriers go the way of the Berlin Wall, so I have more people to play with.
Is that entitled? Maybe. Perhaps I'm not doing enough. I mean, I could completely uproot myself from family/friends/work and move to a Legacy Mecca, because big life decisions made around a children's card game seems like very rational behavior. Yeah, that's the ticket...I need to do more! I need to be less entitled and work harder!
Can't have the price of Legacy staples drop because then some people might actually lose exchange-value on their hobby implements that they are deriving use-value from. Because that's how hobbies work, you never lose money pursuing them. Or maybe you do, and a certain subset of Magic players feel, dare I say, entitled to a low-risk financial instrument in addition to their hobby?
Or maybe there's a certain class of people who feel that others should be denied the ability to play a format because they stand to lose
It's growing...but not at a fast enough rate, compared to other formats, for most large stores and WotC to give it major support. Yeah, sure, everything's fine, Bahgdad Bob.
Standard as a sucker's game is a common meme on Magic parts and many of the players who complain about price are operating well within their budgets; just look at all the sigs where people have their decks listed and see how many are explicitly budget or implicitly so (i.e. Tier Fun decks that will never top 8 a major event).
You're building a total strawman. Many of the complainers could easily be playing budget EDH lists as their primary Magic activity. Hell, that's what most of the folks at my LGS(s) do.
There are no right or wrong answers here, just everyone's opinions.
As has been brought up many times already, the "collectible" value is being conflated with the playability. Check out the prices of Alpha cards: real collectibles. The value of them as collectibles is why a Revised Shivan dragon is bulk, but an Alpha one is a $700 piece of cardboard. Same with things like Birds of paradise: been reprinted many many times, but the original one still holds value. THOSE are collectibles. Alpha Underground Sea is a collectible. Revised Underground Sea holds value only because of playability and artificial scarcity. Reprinting will remove "artificial scarcity" from the equation, and the prices for the real collectible versions would stabilize just fine. Would they lose value? Certainly, they would lose the inflated value of being necessary for playing certain decks, but collectible value is a real thing (Ask the Shivan Dragons.)
Abolishing the RL would hurt investors and speculators short-term. I know my collection would take a big hit, value-wise, but, as long as I'm not planning on cashing out, it's a net positive to me: I could actually play Legacy games with people. My cards would get played! I could create (or re-create) some of the decks I grew up playing, ones that aren't ever going to be legal anywhere but Legacy ever again!
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
As I have responded to you many times on this, collectibility is in the eye of the beholder. Revised Underground Sea may not be a collectible in your eyes, but for the great majority of us who cannot afford a $5000 beta version, it is as collectible as we can get. We continue to go round and round on this. You only look at this through the eyes of a player with almost complete disregard to anyone who is a collector.
Also, as I stated earlier the artificial scarcity argument is patently false. Anyone who wants to buy these cards can do so on TCG or any other site. It isn't artificial scarcity that keeps people out of Legacy, it's price. If Wizards printed an EMA 2 with nothing but reserve list cards at $100/pack and essentially raised supply without decreasing price do you really believe that there would be a massive influx of players into Legacy?
1. You act like my "Mr. Entitlement" comment was directed at you. It wasn't, it was a response to calling me "Mr. Gatekeeper" for no other reason than the same thing you're guilty of- owning Legacy cards. There's nothing entitled about wanting to buy in to a lower price point. I never said that. Entitlement comes from the notion that we should be expecting WotC to suddenly change course on a major cornerstone of one of their operational policies that has been in place 20+ years on a wish and a whim, not for the purpose of growing the format, but out of sheer spite for the people who put the effort in to play it, alongside the notion that those who own a bunch of legacy cards are now "hoarders and gatekeepers":
Entitlement comes from completely ignoring reality because we don't like it, and wailing at the sky "WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE THIS HARD FOR ME? I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO FACE THE SAME REALITY EVERYONE ELSE DOES!"
that's the reality. This is the world's most popular collectible card game, it's a little beyond a "children's card game" at this point. At some point you've stopped playing around with "Monopoly", and are now looking to play with other people who found Monopoly much more interesting when the actual depression was occurring, and so only play with original boards and game pieces minted from that era.
You're pursuing some of the most powerful pieces of the game that were printed in limited quantities over 20+ years ago. It's going to cost money, there may not be a ton of people who are also interested in your quest, and it's not going to be an overnight process. The RL exists. It's a thing. It's been a thing. This is why. You know this.
Still, WotC has made an easier path by offering MtGO. If all you genuinely care about is playing, and don't want to pay the paper prices, go play there. In another 20 years, that might be where we're all playing anyway. Hate the client? Fine, go complain about that, that's something WotC can actually address and fix, unlike the RL. You have a much better shot of getting a better MtGO client than you do of getting rid of the RL. I mean, honestly, it should be pretty clear at this point you have a better chance of D.B. Cooper deciding he wants to come out of hiding and wants YOU to teach him how to play Magic than you do of the RL getting broken. People who want to play Legacy but don't have opponents or want to put that work in (and it is a LOT of work) should be directing their energy at the MTGO client, that's actually a viable resolution that can eventually be fixed.
Whether you agree with the reserve list or not has nothing to do with the fact that it's here, it's been made abundantly clear for an extended period of time that it's not going anywhere. Does it suck? Yes. But people act like it's been a super secret that suddenly got spoiled and reserve list cards are expensive as a result of this are a completely unforeseen development. "Oh man! I can't believe that the most powerful playing pieces for the world's most popular CCG that can never be reprinted and are 25+ years old can't just be opened out of a booster pack for $2.95 anymore! What do they cost now, like $10? No? Well, does the price change any if I complain a whole lot about it? Will I suddenly own the cards if I tear my hair and cut myself in the streets outside WotC's office?"
Expecting that WotC will suddenly look down upon poor ericlimeback and see his plight, then look at the reserve list and say "wow, you know, we were all for this RL thing until ericlimeback brought this to our attention, let's just torch it because he's made a unique argument that we've never, ever been presented with before and shower him in dual lands so he can bathe in the tears of everyone else who sucked it up, accepted that this is the way things are, and decided they still wanted to play badly enough to go down that road. He really deserves it."
2. I don't feel any pity for people who use Magic as a stock market and lose money in it. My understanding is that of those that do, most don't feel any for themselves either when they lose money. It is a game, first and foremost, and those treating it as Wall Street are doing so at great risk. Having said that:
There are not many games I would pony up $1k+ to play. Hell, there's a lot of video games I like but want to wait till they go on sale because I don't like spending $60 on a lot of games.
So why do I play a format of a game where a single piece is worth twice that or more? Why did I acquire them? Why didn't I choose a different format? Here's the rub. I did so because it's a one shot investment. Not into my bank account, but into the game itself. If I ever tire of deck, I can trade it for other playing pieces worth just as much value. If I ever tire of the game, I can get most of what I paid into it back- it's an expensive, but safe investment. I had minimal qualms about grinding for duals and LEDs and a Tabernacle, but I have major qualms about decklists that call for Tarmogoyfs and LotV and the modern format in general for this reason. These cards are just a matter of time before 'goyf succumbs to a combination of reprints and gradual obsolescence and LoTV gets Do I wish I could be playing the game for a fraction of the cost with more people and less hurdles? Sure. But I accept that that's (again reiterating this) not reality. Basing my decisions of format choice in reality is not entitlement, it's simply choosing to operate within the outlined parameters of the way the company that produces that game has said it will be produced, and has repeatedly underscored and further tightened down on that stance. It's a decision based on reality. I don't really like the reality myself, but that doesn't change it any, but I can still choose how to operate within it, or to not be part of it, but choosing to not be part of it, complaining about it, and arguing that people who choose to play within it are greedy hoarders and gatekeepers that deserve to be spited is just insane.
This is equally insane though. To suggest that people support the reserve list so they can sit on their mountains of $100 cards and declare themselves the winners of a game that can't be played because they have all the pieces-or whatever the line of reasoning is that's prompting you to make this argument-is just completely absurd. There's plenty of competition as it stands, and in a format where you can die because you tapped the wrong thing out of order, the notion that that this argument holds any merit with people who, I assure you, are quite unafraid of losing, is just insane. The people who have climbed the hurdles usually have enough love of the game to be as invested in it skill-wise as they are financially. If the skies opened up and rained legacy staples down on everyone tomorrow, I think the highest level competitors will still be the ones who played before the Great Dual Downpour of 2017. I mean, I get that some people value the investment they made into their cards more highly than others, that's fine, but to suggest that perhaps supporters of the RL are doing so because they fear competition......do you have ANY basis for this in reality at all?
Fair enough, some of them are. And I can probably find plenty of examples of my case in point as well, I can think of a few at my LGS. But that meme exists for a reason. I don't really think it's a "sucker's" game persay, Standard can be a fulfilling format that challenges you to work within a more confined cardpool in an ever-shifting landscape, dramatic improvements to make standard more affordable have started to show, and I don't hate standard just for being "not legacy." I don't actually hate the concept of standard anyway, but I find it too prone to suddenly going from good to bad on a whim and the continual grind to keep up with it isn't my bag. So instead of complaining about it....I just choose not to play it. I don't even think its pricetag is that bad anymore, for a recurring expense, it's gotten a lot more reasonable and you can build a good deck for between $100-$250. I just don't like the format itself too often.
Then you have Modern's pricetag for its top tier decks that meets or exceeds some Legacy lists, and comes close to matching many more. I can't justify that kind of expense on cards that- by and large- will almost certainly see a reprint, when I could be playing a more diverse format, with more powerful cards, that have a pretty much ironclad "won't get reprinted" clause. Again, don't get me wrong, I understand why Modern would appeal to some, it's just not my cup of tea, and I'd rather put that kind of cash into game pieces that I know I can cash out for similar value if I leave the game.
Still, it seems odd to me that people who stick to "tier fun" decks, as you describe, and budget edh lists would have any place to complain about Legacy being too expensive to begin with. I mean, if all you're going to play is "tier fun" decks and budget edh, it seems that Legacy's pricetag is a bit like someone who only rides a bike and drives a Volvo complaining about the cost of a new Tesla.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave