Quick question. Wizards can't print cards on reserved list right but can't they just print the cards with different names, wizards does that all the time. Elvish mystic is just Llanowar elves with a different name. Black lotus could become something like Shadow Lotus. Then they could make a rule that of only 4 lotus cards per deck is aloud.
Quick question. Wizards can't print cards on reserved list right but can't they just print the cards with different names, wizards does that all the time. Elvish mystic is just Llanowar elves with a different name. Black lotus could become something like Shadow Lotus. Then they could make a rule that of only 4 lotus cards per deck is aloud.
No, they cannot do that. From the Official Reprint Policy:
Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
Llanowar Elves into Elvish Mystic is fine, because Llanowar Elves are not on the reserved list. Black Lotus into an identical card named Shadow Lotus would not be fine.
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DCI Level 2 Judge
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
Quick question. Wizards can't print cards on reserved list right but can't they just print the cards with different names, wizards does that all the time. Elvish mystic is just Llanowar elves with a different name. Black lotus could become something like Shadow Lotus. Then they could make a rule that of only 4 lotus cards per deck is aloud.
No, they cannot do that. From the Official Reprint Policy:
Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
Llanowar Elves into Elvish Mystic is fine, because Llanowar Elves are not on the reserved list. Black Lotus into an identical card named Shadow Lotus would not be fine.
Wait why sutch a rule of no functional repritns exists?Isn't the same card so why does concern the so called "collectors"?
There are two reasons.
First, price is greatly affected by playability. Functional reprints effectively increase the supply of reserved list cards, thereby reducing the secondary market price. That would upset collectors and it clearly violates the spirit of the reserved list, which was explicitly to not flood the secondary market with extra copies of certain cards.
And second, functional reprints actually make certain decks better, which means that functional reprints don't necessarily "close the gap" on playability. For example, you might think that a functional reprint of a valuable card would give more people an opportunity to play with that card, thereby allowing more people to participate in eternal formats. Except in practice, that just gives an edge to the players that own an original copy; a functional reprint of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale would allow the reprint to be in play at the same time as the original without violating the legend rule, which means that decks could run both without penalty, and that would probably be a "more optimal" build than any deck with just the functional reprint.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Wait why sutch a rule of no functional repritns exists?Isn't the same card so why does concern the so called "collectors"?
There are two reasons.
First, price is greatly affected by playability. Functional reprints effectively increase the supply of reserved list cards, thereby reducing the secondary market price. That would upset collectors and it clearly violates the spirit of the reserved list, which was explicitly to not flood the secondary market with extra copies of certain cards.
And second, functional reprints actually make certain decks better, which means that functional reprints don't necessarily "close the gap" on playability. For example, you might think that a functional reprint of a valuable card would give more people an opportunity to play with that card, thereby allowing more people to participate in eternal formats. Except in practice, that just gives an edge to the players that own an original copy; a functional reprint of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale would allow the reprint to be in play at the same time as the original without violating the legend rule, which means that decks could run both without penalty, and that would probably be a "more optimal" build than any deck with just the functional reprint.
Woudn't a solution for that to ban the reserved cards that have their functional counterparts? I know isn't the most optional and it would suck for legacy players because of their investment, but the card reprinted its value will be far more afordable and might get more people to the format. ofcourse this would be a slow process because it woudn't ban everything at one go, only those with coutnerparts but it might work unless im missing something.
Wait why sutch a rule of no functional repritns exists?Isn't the same card so why does concern the so called "collectors"?
There are two reasons.
First, price is greatly affected by playability. Functional reprints effectively increase the supply of reserved list cards, thereby reducing the secondary market price. That would upset collectors and it clearly violates the spirit of the reserved list, which was explicitly to not flood the secondary market with extra copies of certain cards.
And second, functional reprints actually make certain decks better, which means that functional reprints don't necessarily "close the gap" on playability. For example, you might think that a functional reprint of a valuable card would give more people an opportunity to play with that card, thereby allowing more people to participate in eternal formats. Except in practice, that just gives an edge to the players that own an original copy; a functional reprint of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale would allow the reprint to be in play at the same time as the original without violating the legend rule, which means that decks could run both without penalty, and that would probably be a "more optimal" build than any deck with just the functional reprint.
Woudn't a solution for that to ban the reserved cards that have their functional counterparts? I know isn't the most optional and it would suck for legacy players because of their investment, but the card reprinted its value will be far more afordable and might get more people to the format. ofcourse this would be a slow process because it woudn't ban everything at one go, only those with coutnerparts but it might work unless im missing something.
What you're missing is the first reason from my previous post. If your solution were implemented and WotC banned all of the cards that have functional reprints, then all of those cards would immediately tank in value (because they're no longer playable), thereby upsetting the collectors.
Today, WotC abides by "the spirit of the reserved list". They don't try to circumvent the reserved list anymore; they simply design around it, keeping in mind that it exists. Functional reprints are a core violation of the spirit of the reserved list; if they were willing to print functional reprints (especially if they banned the originals), then they might as well have just reprinted the originals.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Also i thought collectors wanted to, you know, collect cards so how this would upset them? You mean this would upset "investors" not true collectors. Colelctors would still have their old and vintage cards that still keep a high pricing, like how Alpha Birds of Paradise is still expensive even tough the card had so many printings. So in essence isn't legacy players that keeping the price of the cards high and the investors are banking on them?
Also i thought collectors wanted to, you know, collect cards so how this would upset them? You mean this would upset "investors" not true collectors. Colelctors would still have their old and vintage cards that still keep a high pricing, like how Alpha Birds of Paradise is still expensive even tough the card had so many printings. So in essence isn't legacy players that keeping the price of the cards high and the investors are banking on them?
From the standpoint of a heavily invested legacy player/collector, I would be very upset if WotC banned everything on the reserve list and then released functional reprints. Probably upset enough to quit entirely. Saying that all of my current cards are unusable and I need a set of cards that do exactly the same thing but require me to spend a bunch more money on them if I want to keep playing the format would feel like a blatant cash grab. I imagine I'm not the only person who feels that way. I would go so far as to guess that an action like that would drive the majority of current legacy players out of the format, if not out of the game.
Note that I'm entirely against the reserved list and am certainly not an investor. I would gladly see them tank the value of my collection by breaking the reserve list. I bought my cards to play with first and foremost, with collection as a secondary goal. A solution like what you're proposing technically "solves" the reserve list problem, but it would be burning a lot of bridges with some very established players/collectors.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Price is tied to playability. There's a reason that Black Lotus is expensive and Raging River is not, despite both of them having the exact same number of printings in the exact same sets. Scarcity doesn't explain the price difference; the price difference is explained by playability. If you suddenly banned Black Lotus, there might be some extra novelty ("collector") value in the card that still doesn't exist for Raging River, but suddenly no one has any functional reason to own one, which would cause a drastic decrease in price.
If you still don't believe that, take a card like Fastbond, which is an old, ridiculously powerful spell. Today, you can own it for less than $5, despite it having been a rare last printed in Revised. The reason is because the card is banned in all formats except Vintage, where it's restricted. Banned cards are cheap, despite being powerful.
Also i thought collectors wanted to, you know, collect cards so how this would upset them? You mean this would upset "investors" not true collectors. Colelctors would still have their old and vintage cards that still keep a high pricing, like how Alpha Birds of Paradise is still expensive even tough the card had so many printings. So in essence isn't legacy players that keeping the price of the cards high and the investors are banking on them?
For all intents and purposes, "collectors" and "investors" are synonymous. Sure, any given person may be one or the other, but both groups take cardboard out of circulation just to have it.
Alpha BoP maintain a different price tag than reprinted editions because they are functionally identical, but more scarce. It is tautology to suggest that older editions (from the ABU days) will have a higher price tag than contemporary counterparts. However, Alpha BoP would be significantly more expensive than it is today if BoP hadn't been reprinted so many times. The reprints have undeniably brought down the price of the alpha edition and today, the price difference between the two is only explained by "collector" value (and niche formats like 93/94).
The price of cards on the secondary market is driven by supply and demand. The supply of older, playable cards is relatively low and their demand is relatively high, which means that those cards end up being expensive. The secondary market price is affected by all of the people who wish to buy or sell copies, including those people that want to play with them or simply remove them from circulation. There are a bunch of reasons any given card could enter or disappear from the market. I don't claim to have causal knowledge of what is responsible for the high market prices, but I suspect that it's some combination of playability, scarcity, novelty, and asset security.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I don't really see a purpose to the reserved list besides artificially inflating prices constantly due to an ever dwindling supply of functional copies and constant demand for them. They should dispense of the reserve list entirely and just reprint the cards in commander products. Not like most people are going to care and those who did go take loans out to mess around with the card stock prices pretty much deserve the results.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A trade-in program or something like it is coming whether you like it or not. I am just trying to speed up the process to save Legacy. It is either that
or MTG will stop being a collectible card game outside alpha and beta, which could happen. Once that happens though, they will not be able
to charge a premium for their product.
The secondary market is all about confidence. Once that collapses, Wotc is done and finished.
When/if the counterfeits become too good, they will be forced to do it. Abolishing the reserved list won't get rid of the counterfeits like
everyone claims on this "website". That is the popular opinion all over the web. The counterfeiters are now faking full art lands, Kaladesh, Khans of Tarkir, SOI and Battle for Zendikar cards. The fakes have the hologram too. Those cards are still in print. It's only a matter of time before they are wide spread. Maybe they are widespread already for all I know.
It does make business sense for them to do it or something like it. They will do it just because they are forced to and not because they had the foresight to. And Wotc does care about the secondary market, but they don't advertise it on purpose, because that opens them up to a new set of tax laws that would make MTG a registered asset. They are doing everything they can to avoid this legal characterization. This is why they are careful with their language.
A trade-in program or something like it is coming whether you like it or not.
You have no evidence nor any good argument for the existence of a trade-in program. At best, that sentiment belongs in the speculation thread and at worst, it's incredibly misleading for anyone that stumbles upon this thread.
I am just trying to speed up the process to save Legacy.
As far as WotC is concerned, Legacy is dead. WotC cut tournament support for it. WotC doesn't playtest for it when they develop new sets. The only times that WotC throws Legacy players a bone are when they reprint eligible stables in specialty products like Commander or EMA.
Any Magic is better than no Magic, so they would never discourage people from playing Legacy. But after years of fighting the reserved list problem and the color imbalance, WotC made the sound business decision to create Modern and start from scratch. Again, as far as WotC is concerned, Legacy is dead.
It is either that or MTG will stop being a collectible card game outside alpha and beta, which could happen. Once that happens though, they will not be able to charge a premium for their product.
Magic is still a collectible card game. It's just that all cards are eligible for reprint. The secondary market value of contemporary cards clearly still exists, and WotC still charges a premium for its MMA sets.
When/if the counterfeits become too good, they will be forced to do it. Abolishing the reserved list won't get rid of the counterfeits like everyone claims on this "website". That is the popular opinion all over the web. The counterfeiters are now faking full art lands, Kaladesh, Khans of Tarkir, SOI and Battle for Zendikar cards. The fakes have the hologram too. Those cards are still in print. It's only a matter of time before they are wide spread. Maybe they are widespread already for all I know.
This is a thread about the reserved list and WotC's reprint policy. It is not a thread about counterfeits. I don't want to discuss counterfeits and even though I disagree with you about this too, I'm not going to respond to it.
It does make business sense for them to do it or something like it. They will do it just because they are forced to and not because they had the foresight to. And Wotc does care about the secondary market, but they don't advertise it on purpose, because that opens them up to a new set of tax laws that would make MTG a registered asset. They are doing everything they can to avoid this legal characterization. This is why they are careful with their language.
I'm not a lawyer. I don't know why WotC doesn't explicitly acknowledge the secondary market. But I also don't care. They're a business and I have a decent understanding of how they operate.
It doesn't make business sense for them to do a trade-in program because the best use of investment dollars is probably to update (replace) MTGO. People like Magic. People would play more Magic if they could play in their homes and the client wasn't horrible. For the amount of money and logistics that it would take in order to have a trade-in program, they should finally just develop their online brand to the point that it's not an embarrassment.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Legal issues aside, my 2 cents is that you're sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't when it comes to collecting older cards.
Say you want some sweet old card, like say imperial seal (a card that I own). If you buy it and then they reprint it, you sunk a ton of money into something that's now available for pennies on the dollar, most likely, and you're out a lot of money. If you don't buy it, the price just keeps going up unless they reprint it, which happens very rarely when you're looking at the many expensive older cards.
If the value of cards was always kept low, it wouldn't be a big deal. I would have been happier if I'd paid less money for my collection, and it was worth less. But once the cards start to be worth a lot, it becomes more and more of a problem. Someone's going to be mad either way.
My solution to this is: let people proxy. Those of us with cool collections get to stay cool, and those who want to play cards can play cards.
Of course, I only play commander, not legacy, so I don't have to worry about tournament legality issues.
I own a significant number of reserve list cards (a set of Underground Sea, Tundra, Volcanic Island, etc. (the only duals I don't have full sets of are Scrubland, Badlands)) with a pretty expensive collection ($30k~ approx). I wouldn't mind them abolishing the reserve list, and I doubt a promissory estoppel would matter considering the game, market, etc., has changed significantly from the time in which the promise was made. A lot of my collection was obtained before it became significantly expensive-- for example, I bought my Seas when they were $30, so maybe my input isn't as worthwhile as those who dropped for them at full price, but I wouldn't mind shaving some of the value off of my collection so that I can finally play my favorite formats with people again. I've only been to one Vintage tournament (it was 10 proxy) and Legacy has been harder and harder to find games in, and is easily the most fun I've ever had playing Magic. Legacy with Commander side games is the *greatest* time ever.
I especially wouldn't mind them re-opening the foil loophole so that duals, Moat, Tabernacle, Workshop, Bazaar, etc., could be reprinted again. These cards don't need a tremendous increase in supply in order to aid the market- there just need to be enough so that the formats in which those cards are playable can actually support the volume of players who would like to use them in decks. Duals would be absurdly popular due to Vintage/Legacy but also for Commander, as well, so I guess they'd need to be more careful about that since not everyone is as easygoing as I when it comes to this subject.
I really do think Wizards needs to do something, though. This game is probably my greatest addiction, but it's not worth a damn if I can't play with anybody (and no, I'm not going to play Modern. Wizards has been pretty ban-happy and I've lost integral pieces to my decks 3 separate times now as I was a UR Storm, Pod, and then Amulet Bloom player who was building Splinter Twin because it was only a matter of time before Bloom got banned, I thought. If I can't play good combo decks, I won't be in the format, no thank you).
A trade-in program or something like it is coming whether you like it or not. I am just trying to speed up the process to save Legacy. It is either that
or MTG will stop being a collectible card game outside alpha and beta, which could happen. Once that happens though, they will not be able
to charge a premium for their product.
The secondary market is all about confidence. Once that collapses, Wotc is done and finished.
When/if the counterfeits become too good, they will be forced to do it. Abolishing the reserved list won't get rid of the counterfeits like
everyone claims on this "website". That is the popular opinion all over the web. The counterfeiters are now faking full art lands, Kaladesh, Khans of Tarkir, SOI and Battle for Zendikar cards. The fakes have the hologram too. Those cards are still in print. It's only a matter of time before they are wide spread. Maybe they are widespread already for all I know.
It does make business sense for them to do it or something like it. They will do it just because they are forced to and not because they had the foresight to. And Wotc does care about the secondary market, but they don't advertise it on purpose, because that opens them up to a new set of tax laws that would make MTG a registered asset. They are doing everything they can to avoid this legal characterization. This is why they are careful with their language.
Wow. You're like the Warangel88 of the Reserved List.
Please stop making ridiculous, unsubstantiated claims. You're not moving the discussion forward in any way.
Why in the world would anyone think a trade-in program of any sort is a good idea? It's like that NGF nonsense when so-called "collectors" would trade in their original NeoGeo game case sleeves with all the original misprints for a "corrected" case sleeve branded with NGF branded garbage. A real collector would not trade in their cards, even the high dollar ones, because well.... they want to collect them, warts and all.
No investor would think it's a good idea to trade away their premium high dollar cards for a wheelbarrow full of what would inevitably be junk cards.
The people such a program would actually benefit would be the people who don't have said cards in the first place or the people who want to preserve the cards for their collection (there's that word again).
The frame thing, or talking about fakes, or whatever, as a reason for a trade program is just nonsense. If I have the real card, I already know I have a real card, why trade it for a guaranteed real card? If I don't like the frame, it would be better to sell it and buy the new version or trade away for it.
Then there's the money. No way is WotC going to sink that kind of money in validating old cardd and producing a ton of cards only to give them away.
If I bought the card, I want the card. If I didn't want the card, I would sell the card and use the money to get other cards. No reserved list trade in program of any kind is going to convince me, or anyone else, who didn't sell the card already to trade the card in.
The have-nots will whine for eons to come as they always have about not being able (or more accurately willing) to buy cards on the reserved list when they're cheap/affordable, but just today while I was picking up a small commander preorder, I found a signed ebon praetor in a bulk box for 10 cents! Damn right I snatched that sucker up. I mean, c'mon. It's got a giant rabbit, a devil, and something even weirder with a long-brimmed hat, robe, and snout! Playability (or rather lack thereof) aside, the art alone has to be worth something, lol. Eventually, I'll care enough to learn the story behind that concept art, but I've got so many signed cards already and that wasn't one of them, so how could I possibly overlook it and not add it to my list. After all, it can't possibly lose value at this point, can it? Moral of the story: Cards on the reserved list are worth every penny. Stay humble
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
I found a signed ebon praetor in a bulk box for 10 cents! Damn right I snatched that sucker up.
Congrats on saving a quarter, I guess?
Lol. Thanks, but the quarter was irrelevant.
I only cared about the signature.
Sure, it's certainly no mox diamond (which I also have signed, a Stronghold copy that is), but I would've bought it just the same had it been a roc of kher ridges. I simply didn't have a signed copy of that terrible, albeit artistically flavorful, and more importantly, out-of-print card yet
Now I'm on the hunt for a signed Hand of Justice. lol.
I got several others as well the other day, and overlooked some that didn't interest me, signatures that is. Nothing else on the reserved list though.
As I've become more of a collector, commander player, and cube drafter in recent years, I usually prefer acquiring signed and/or foil and/or foreign language cards as opposed to regular copies whenever they're available, if only for the added rarity and exclusivity (call it "elitist" as some do if you'd like) factor (assuming the price or trade offer is too good to refuse and I don't already have more copies than I'll ever need or be able to trade or sell). While most of these cards will never find their way into decks and may very well sit in binders for years to come, I've been motivated by 'Markers' and other collectors (who admittedly I'll never catch up to) to augment my decks and collection with as many signed cards as I can (especially if they're also on the reserved list), budget permitting of course and when they're offered to me significantly below market value, which fortunately is easy for the most part as their popularity is seemingly niche and many players consider them "damaged", often even refusing to trade for them when I'm feeling generous enough to let one go to sweeten a negotiation (alas, their loss as far as I'm concerned). While I do understand that opinion from a grading perspective and perhaps even agree with it to a certain extent, I've always felt the term should be renamed because implying that any card signed by the artist is inherently "damaged" is an exaggeration and linguistic imprecision which is offensive to the artist. Imagine if someone rudely labelled a piece of art you produced or a product you helped produce damaged because your name is on it. Suffice it to say I've discussed this with a couple artists I've met in person while awaiting signatures who agree (I'm one of those guys who brings a big stack of cards in priority order for each artist at local GPs with the hope they'll sign most if not all). Some do, and some have caps, excuses, or lazy wrists, but either way, I always tip well. What's interesting is that some artists act surprised when you have certain cards (generally perceived to be obscure or unplayable) to get signed, and even express frustration that great works of art they produced never see play and how they (almost) never get requests for signatures on particular cards because the cards are either too inefficient outside of limited or banned in popular formats. Without naming names, I even met one artist who seemed pretty disappointed at Wotc because none of their art ever made it on a card of mythic rarity. I tried reassuring them that it was only a matter of time, how it couldn't possibly be intentional, that there were very few mythics per set, and that rarity doesn't even necessarily equal popularity or playability (which they already knew), but despite my best efforts I seemed to offer little consolation. What surprised and impressed me was when they refused my (rather generous) tip that time stating "I never charge for signatures, only alters". I smiled and tried to insist because I brought close too 100 for them to sign that day, but again they refused and said "spend it on cards you need or give it to another artist instead". That's the kind of artist I respect most, someone who produces quality art, has charisma and class, volunteers their time, and gives back to the community.
Back on the topic of Reserved Lists and our perceptions of them...
One could easily argue that every signed (and otherwise altered) card is also technically on a "reserved list" of their own as every signature is subtly unique, and there is (and always will be) a finite number of signed copies of individual cards (most yet to be determined and some obviously more than others) in circulation. Some artists are already no longer with us or unavailable (so glad I got a few signed Quinton Hoover cards when I did), and as time goes on, sadly more, and eventually all artists will either stop signing by choice, death, disability, or some other inability to do so (ie: geographic inaccessibility). The supply will dwindle, and slowly but incrementally, as demand goes up, the market values of such cards will adjust accordingly relative to their scarcity, inevitably rising to new plateaus and settling higher than the supply of their equally conditioned, unsigned counterparts which will be much more readily available and always subject to re-saturation through reprinting.
The way I see it...The original Reserved List may be finalized and unchangeable.
However, we mustn't forget that Magic cards are still being added to a new Reserved List every day.
You just have to look beyond what's produced, printed, and packaged by Wotc.
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
I think you are wrong about the investor not wanting to trade in a card. Remember that investors are not players like us. They are in it to make money.
So the investor would trade their revised tundra for 8 new tundras with security features and then sell them for 40 bucks a piece to new players. You as an investor would make money. If Wotc reprints tundra, you as an investor lose money, since Wotc is the one doing the selling. Not only investors, but I
think many players would trade in their dual lands (save one of them for sentimental reasons) for extra tournament legal copies.
Additionally,as long as Wotc destroyed or took out of circulation the revised tundra, the collectors who own revised tundra would see increase in value due to scarcity similar to alpha and beta cards. Overall, investor or player in most cases makes the profit and not Wotc with excessive reprints.
If fakes get too good, (which is debatable) but as some players on this site point out, what is the difference if you can not distinguish between them. Some players might want to get ahead of the curve.
Remember, I mention "or other thing". The other thing Wotc might do is do away with Legacy and the reserved list all together. It's called
"no reserve list Legacy". I would not put it past them to that. It would make many players mad, but I can see it. In my opinion,which many of you
disagree with me, I think it's a trade-in program or no-reserve list Legacy becomes a thing. That is what I think will happen in the long run.
I could be wrong and they could do nothing. But I think long-term Wotc would be costing themselves lots of money by not doing something.
All my statements and predictions above assumes that that the Reserve list is law or unbreakable and that counterfeits get better and better.
As it stands now, "not at all likely." Then again, the part that most people forget is that they've changed the Reprint Policy before. If they could remove a ton of cards from the list once, with no repercussions, they have a very strong case for being able to remove the rest. As long as their official policy is that the RL is staying, though, there's not much hope for players getting these cards legally.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
You mean how you seem to be because people - many falling into the category of "haves" - have opinions you disagree with?
This vitriol, you know, is why these discussions on the RL become so damn hostile.
Sort of unsure on my opinion on this topic. I would really like to have some fun cards like Cursed Scroll to be reprinted, so that I could play them in Modern.. but at the same time I don't want the dual lands that I bought to lose value if they became reprinted. Have bought 2 Taiga, 2 Plateau and a Savannah years ago - I don't play them anymore, just sitting safe in a binder.
Sort of unsure on my opinion on this topic. I would really like to have some fun cards like Cursed Scroll to be reprinted, so that I could play them in Modern.. but at the same time I don't want the dual lands that I bought to lose value if they became reprinted. Have bought 2 Taiga, 2 Plateau and a Savannah years ago - I don't play them anymore, just sitting safe in a binder.
Even if the RL were abolished, I doubt most if any would be reprinted in a Modern-accessible set.
No, they cannot do that. From the Official Reprint Policy:
Llanowar Elves into Elvish Mystic is fine, because Llanowar Elves are not on the reserved list. Black Lotus into an identical card named Shadow Lotus would not be fine.
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
First, price is greatly affected by playability. Functional reprints effectively increase the supply of reserved list cards, thereby reducing the secondary market price. That would upset collectors and it clearly violates the spirit of the reserved list, which was explicitly to not flood the secondary market with extra copies of certain cards.
And second, functional reprints actually make certain decks better, which means that functional reprints don't necessarily "close the gap" on playability. For example, you might think that a functional reprint of a valuable card would give more people an opportunity to play with that card, thereby allowing more people to participate in eternal formats. Except in practice, that just gives an edge to the players that own an original copy; a functional reprint of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale would allow the reprint to be in play at the same time as the original without violating the legend rule, which means that decks could run both without penalty, and that would probably be a "more optimal" build than any deck with just the functional reprint.
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Woudn't a solution for that to ban the reserved cards that have their functional counterparts? I know isn't the most optional and it would suck for legacy players because of their investment, but the card reprinted its value will be far more afordable and might get more people to the format. ofcourse this would be a slow process because it woudn't ban everything at one go, only those with coutnerparts but it might work unless im missing something.
Today, WotC abides by "the spirit of the reserved list". They don't try to circumvent the reserved list anymore; they simply design around it, keeping in mind that it exists. Functional reprints are a core violation of the spirit of the reserved list; if they were willing to print functional reprints (especially if they banned the originals), then they might as well have just reprinted the originals.
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Also i thought collectors wanted to, you know, collect cards so how this would upset them? You mean this would upset "investors" not true collectors. Colelctors would still have their old and vintage cards that still keep a high pricing, like how Alpha Birds of Paradise is still expensive even tough the card had so many printings. So in essence isn't legacy players that keeping the price of the cards high and the investors are banking on them?
Note that I'm entirely against the reserved list and am certainly not an investor. I would gladly see them tank the value of my collection by breaking the reserve list. I bought my cards to play with first and foremost, with collection as a secondary goal. A solution like what you're proposing technically "solves" the reserve list problem, but it would be burning a lot of bridges with some very established players/collectors.
Price is tied to playability. There's a reason that Black Lotus is expensive and Raging River is not, despite both of them having the exact same number of printings in the exact same sets. Scarcity doesn't explain the price difference; the price difference is explained by playability. If you suddenly banned Black Lotus, there might be some extra novelty ("collector") value in the card that still doesn't exist for Raging River, but suddenly no one has any functional reason to own one, which would cause a drastic decrease in price.
If you still don't believe that, take a card like Fastbond, which is an old, ridiculously powerful spell. Today, you can own it for less than $5, despite it having been a rare last printed in Revised. The reason is because the card is banned in all formats except Vintage, where it's restricted. Banned cards are cheap, despite being powerful.
For all intents and purposes, "collectors" and "investors" are synonymous. Sure, any given person may be one or the other, but both groups take cardboard out of circulation just to have it.
Alpha BoP maintain a different price tag than reprinted editions because they are functionally identical, but more scarce. It is tautology to suggest that older editions (from the ABU days) will have a higher price tag than contemporary counterparts. However, Alpha BoP would be significantly more expensive than it is today if BoP hadn't been reprinted so many times. The reprints have undeniably brought down the price of the alpha edition and today, the price difference between the two is only explained by "collector" value (and niche formats like 93/94).
The price of cards on the secondary market is driven by supply and demand. The supply of older, playable cards is relatively low and their demand is relatively high, which means that those cards end up being expensive. The secondary market price is affected by all of the people who wish to buy or sell copies, including those people that want to play with them or simply remove them from circulation. There are a bunch of reasons any given card could enter or disappear from the market. I don't claim to have causal knowledge of what is responsible for the high market prices, but I suspect that it's some combination of playability, scarcity, novelty, and asset security.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A trade-in program or something like it is coming whether you like it or not. I am just trying to speed up the process to save Legacy. It is either that
or MTG will stop being a collectible card game outside alpha and beta, which could happen. Once that happens though, they will not be able
to charge a premium for their product.
The secondary market is all about confidence. Once that collapses, Wotc is done and finished.
When/if the counterfeits become too good, they will be forced to do it. Abolishing the reserved list won't get rid of the counterfeits like
everyone claims on this "website". That is the popular opinion all over the web. The counterfeiters are now faking full art lands, Kaladesh, Khans of Tarkir, SOI and Battle for Zendikar cards. The fakes have the hologram too. Those cards are still in print. It's only a matter of time before they are wide spread. Maybe they are widespread already for all I know.
It does make business sense for them to do it or something like it. They will do it just because they are forced to and not because they had the foresight to. And Wotc does care about the secondary market, but they don't advertise it on purpose, because that opens them up to a new set of tax laws that would make MTG a registered asset. They are doing everything they can to avoid this legal characterization. This is why they are careful with their language.
As far as WotC is concerned, Legacy is dead. WotC cut tournament support for it. WotC doesn't playtest for it when they develop new sets. The only times that WotC throws Legacy players a bone are when they reprint eligible stables in specialty products like Commander or EMA.
Any Magic is better than no Magic, so they would never discourage people from playing Legacy. But after years of fighting the reserved list problem and the color imbalance, WotC made the sound business decision to create Modern and start from scratch. Again, as far as WotC is concerned, Legacy is dead.
Magic is still a collectible card game. It's just that all cards are eligible for reprint. The secondary market value of contemporary cards clearly still exists, and WotC still charges a premium for its MMA sets.
This is the exact reason that the reserved list still exists and that their policy will never change.
This is a thread about the reserved list and WotC's reprint policy. It is not a thread about counterfeits. I don't want to discuss counterfeits and even though I disagree with you about this too, I'm not going to respond to it.
I'm not a lawyer. I don't know why WotC doesn't explicitly acknowledge the secondary market. But I also don't care. They're a business and I have a decent understanding of how they operate.
It doesn't make business sense for them to do a trade-in program because the best use of investment dollars is probably to update (replace) MTGO. People like Magic. People would play more Magic if they could play in their homes and the client wasn't horrible. For the amount of money and logistics that it would take in order to have a trade-in program, they should finally just develop their online brand to the point that it's not an embarrassment.
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Say you want some sweet old card, like say imperial seal (a card that I own). If you buy it and then they reprint it, you sunk a ton of money into something that's now available for pennies on the dollar, most likely, and you're out a lot of money. If you don't buy it, the price just keeps going up unless they reprint it, which happens very rarely when you're looking at the many expensive older cards.
If the value of cards was always kept low, it wouldn't be a big deal. I would have been happier if I'd paid less money for my collection, and it was worth less. But once the cards start to be worth a lot, it becomes more and more of a problem. Someone's going to be mad either way.
My solution to this is: let people proxy. Those of us with cool collections get to stay cool, and those who want to play cards can play cards.
Of course, I only play commander, not legacy, so I don't have to worry about tournament legality issues.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I especially wouldn't mind them re-opening the foil loophole so that duals, Moat, Tabernacle, Workshop, Bazaar, etc., could be reprinted again. These cards don't need a tremendous increase in supply in order to aid the market- there just need to be enough so that the formats in which those cards are playable can actually support the volume of players who would like to use them in decks. Duals would be absurdly popular due to Vintage/Legacy but also for Commander, as well, so I guess they'd need to be more careful about that since not everyone is as easygoing as I when it comes to this subject.
I really do think Wizards needs to do something, though. This game is probably my greatest addiction, but it's not worth a damn if I can't play with anybody (and no, I'm not going to play Modern. Wizards has been pretty ban-happy and I've lost integral pieces to my decks 3 separate times now as I was a UR Storm, Pod, and then Amulet Bloom player who was building Splinter Twin because it was only a matter of time before Bloom got banned, I thought. If I can't play good combo decks, I won't be in the format, no thank you).
Sig and Avatar drawn by me.
Wow. You're like the Warangel88 of the Reserved List.
Please stop making ridiculous, unsubstantiated claims. You're not moving the discussion forward in any way.
No investor would think it's a good idea to trade away their premium high dollar cards for a wheelbarrow full of what would inevitably be junk cards.
The people such a program would actually benefit would be the people who don't have said cards in the first place or the people who want to preserve the cards for their collection (there's that word again).
The frame thing, or talking about fakes, or whatever, as a reason for a trade program is just nonsense. If I have the real card, I already know I have a real card, why trade it for a guaranteed real card? If I don't like the frame, it would be better to sell it and buy the new version or trade away for it.
Then there's the money. No way is WotC going to sink that kind of money in validating old cardd and producing a ton of cards only to give them away.
If I bought the card, I want the card. If I didn't want the card, I would sell the card and use the money to get other cards. No reserved list trade in program of any kind is going to convince me, or anyone else, who didn't sell the card already to trade the card in.
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Lol. Thanks, but the quarter was irrelevant.
I only cared about the signature.
Sure, it's certainly no mox diamond (which I also have signed, a Stronghold copy that is), but I would've bought it just the same had it been a roc of kher ridges. I simply didn't have a signed copy of that terrible, albeit artistically flavorful, and more importantly, out-of-print card yet
Now I'm on the hunt for a signed Hand of Justice. lol.
I got several others as well the other day, and overlooked some that didn't interest me, signatures that is. Nothing else on the reserved list though.
As I've become more of a collector, commander player, and cube drafter in recent years, I usually prefer acquiring signed and/or foil and/or foreign language cards as opposed to regular copies whenever they're available, if only for the added rarity and exclusivity (call it "elitist" as some do if you'd like) factor (assuming the price or trade offer is too good to refuse and I don't already have more copies than I'll ever need or be able to trade or sell). While most of these cards will never find their way into decks and may very well sit in binders for years to come, I've been motivated by 'Markers' and other collectors (who admittedly I'll never catch up to) to augment my decks and collection with as many signed cards as I can (especially if they're also on the reserved list), budget permitting of course and when they're offered to me significantly below market value, which fortunately is easy for the most part as their popularity is seemingly niche and many players consider them "damaged", often even refusing to trade for them when I'm feeling generous enough to let one go to sweeten a negotiation (alas, their loss as far as I'm concerned). While I do understand that opinion from a grading perspective and perhaps even agree with it to a certain extent, I've always felt the term should be renamed because implying that any card signed by the artist is inherently "damaged" is an exaggeration and linguistic imprecision which is offensive to the artist. Imagine if someone rudely labelled a piece of art you produced or a product you helped produce damaged because your name is on it. Suffice it to say I've discussed this with a couple artists I've met in person while awaiting signatures who agree (I'm one of those guys who brings a big stack of cards in priority order for each artist at local GPs with the hope they'll sign most if not all). Some do, and some have caps, excuses, or lazy wrists, but either way, I always tip well. What's interesting is that some artists act surprised when you have certain cards (generally perceived to be obscure or unplayable) to get signed, and even express frustration that great works of art they produced never see play and how they (almost) never get requests for signatures on particular cards because the cards are either too inefficient outside of limited or banned in popular formats. Without naming names, I even met one artist who seemed pretty disappointed at Wotc because none of their art ever made it on a card of mythic rarity. I tried reassuring them that it was only a matter of time, how it couldn't possibly be intentional, that there were very few mythics per set, and that rarity doesn't even necessarily equal popularity or playability (which they already knew), but despite my best efforts I seemed to offer little consolation. What surprised and impressed me was when they refused my (rather generous) tip that time stating "I never charge for signatures, only alters". I smiled and tried to insist because I brought close too 100 for them to sign that day, but again they refused and said "spend it on cards you need or give it to another artist instead". That's the kind of artist I respect most, someone who produces quality art, has charisma and class, volunteers their time, and gives back to the community.
Back on the topic of Reserved Lists and our perceptions of them...
One could easily argue that every signed (and otherwise altered) card is also technically on a "reserved list" of their own as every signature is subtly unique, and there is (and always will be) a finite number of signed copies of individual cards (most yet to be determined and some obviously more than others) in circulation. Some artists are already no longer with us or unavailable (so glad I got a few signed Quinton Hoover cards when I did), and as time goes on, sadly more, and eventually all artists will either stop signing by choice, death, disability, or some other inability to do so (ie: geographic inaccessibility). The supply will dwindle, and slowly but incrementally, as demand goes up, the market values of such cards will adjust accordingly relative to their scarcity, inevitably rising to new plateaus and settling higher than the supply of their equally conditioned, unsigned counterparts which will be much more readily available and always subject to re-saturation through reprinting.
The way I see it...The original Reserved List may be finalized and unchangeable.
However, we mustn't forget that Magic cards are still being added to a new Reserved List every day.
You just have to look beyond what's produced, printed, and packaged by Wotc.
So the investor would trade their revised tundra for 8 new tundras with security features and then sell them for 40 bucks a piece to new players. You as an investor would make money. If Wotc reprints tundra, you as an investor lose money, since Wotc is the one doing the selling. Not only investors, but I
think many players would trade in their dual lands (save one of them for sentimental reasons) for extra tournament legal copies.
Additionally,as long as Wotc destroyed or took out of circulation the revised tundra, the collectors who own revised tundra would see increase in value due to scarcity similar to alpha and beta cards. Overall, investor or player in most cases makes the profit and not Wotc with excessive reprints.
If fakes get too good, (which is debatable) but as some players on this site point out, what is the difference if you can not distinguish between them. Some players might want to get ahead of the curve.
Remember, I mention "or other thing". The other thing Wotc might do is do away with Legacy and the reserved list all together. It's called
"no reserve list Legacy". I would not put it past them to that. It would make many players mad, but I can see it. In my opinion,which many of you
disagree with me, I think it's a trade-in program or no-reserve list Legacy becomes a thing. That is what I think will happen in the long run.
I could be wrong and they could do nothing. But I think long-term Wotc would be costing themselves lots of money by not doing something.
All my statements and predictions above assumes that that the Reserve list is law or unbreakable and that counterfeits get better and better.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
You mean how you seem to be because people - many falling into the category of "haves" - have opinions you disagree with?
This vitriol, you know, is why these discussions on the RL become so damn hostile.
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