it's wizards fault is people buy fakes. they brought this on themselves so it's perfectly fine if people buy fakes in order to play eternal.
(buying them in order to scam people it's different of course, but still, it's wizards fault again)
This guy gets it. I would be fine if the backs said FAKE in giant font. I would never try and "cash in" and sell them for a (BIG) profit. Besides, I'd miss them in my vintage cube.
And as for the paper in sleeves thing, it changes the density of the card somewhat having a piece of paper shoved in over a macabre waltz. I can feel it when i shuffle.
I understand the density issue. I've felt it before. The best answer is to put a piece of paper over every card in the cube. That at least makes it consistent all the way through. Not the greatest solution, but it still works. If the cards did say FAKE all the way through I'd be fine as well. What these people are doing though, is attempting to pass off counterfeits as the real deal. I hope every one of them gets shut down and thrown in jail.
/edit There is one thing I just don't understand. You seem to have no problem screwing Wizards over by buying counterfeits. However you have some sort of moral code that won't allow you to screw over an individual by trying to pass the card off as legit? Both acts are infringing on Wizards copyrights, yet one is acceptable and one is not?
Wow.. You are putting the blame on Wizards??? that is like saying a raped woman did it to herself because she dressed provocatively. This is an abhorrent argument to make. I strongly suggest you go back and rethink your position.
this makes no sense and you should use more appropriate examples and in the future try not to put words in other people mouth's
yes i blame wizard and i find nothing wrong with that honestly. wizards only cares about three things:
- standard
- limited
- commander
wizards hates eternal and we all know that. it has absolutely no respect for players ( an example: banning to death decks and making people 1) build a new deck hoping it will not get the axe too 2) quit magic ). the reason the reserved list is here is not because they want to preserve collectors investment (a alpha lotus place will not change in value if they reprint it c'mon) but because wizard doesn't want people to play a format in which they get no profit and when you buy into, you don't have to buy anything else.
so yeah, buying counterfeits could be even a positive thing since wizard would start to get less money and thus forced to do something good for the players for once
/edit There is one thing I just don't understand. You seem to have no problem screwing Wizards over by buying counterfeits. However you have some sort of moral code that won't allow you to screw over an individual by trying to pass the card off as legit? Both acts are infringing on Wizards copyrights, yet one is acceptable and one is not?
how can you compare buying counterfeits because you want to play a game that otherwise you can't because wizard doesn't let you do so, with scamming people ?
it's wizards fault is people buy fakes. they brought this on themselves so it's perfectly fine if people buy fakes in order to play eternal.
(buying them in order to scam people it's different of course, but still, it's wizards fault again)
This guy gets it. I would be fine if the backs said FAKE in giant font. I would never try and "cash in" and sell them for a (BIG) profit. Besides, I'd miss them in my vintage cube.
And as for the paper in sleeves thing, it changes the density of the card somewhat having a piece of paper shoved in over a macabre waltz. I can feel it when i shuffle.
I understand the density issue. I've felt it before. The best answer is to put a piece of paper over every card in the cube. That at least makes it consistent all the way through. Not the greatest solution, but it still works. If the cards did say FAKE all the way through I'd be fine as well. What these people are doing though, is attempting to pass off counterfeits as the real deal. I hope every one of them gets shut down and thrown in jail.
/edit There is one thing I just don't understand. You seem to have no problem screwing Wizards over by buying counterfeits. However you have some sort of moral code that won't allow you to screw over an individual by trying to pass the card off as legit? Both acts are infringing on Wizards copyrights, yet one is acceptable and one is not?
Wow.. You are putting the blame on Wizards??? that is like saying a raped woman did it to herself because she dressed provocatively. This is an abhorrent argument to make. I strongly suggest you go back and rethink your position.
this makes no sense and you should use more appropriate examples and in the future try not to put words in other people mouth's
yes i blame wizard and i find nothing wrong with that honestly. wizards only cares about three things:
- standard
- limited
- commander
wizards hates eternal and we all know that. it has absolutely no respect for players ( an example: banning to death decks and making people 1) build a new deck hoping it will not get the axe too 2) quit magic ). the reason the reserved list is here is not because they want to preserve collectors investment (a alpha lotus place will not change in value if they reprint it c'mon) but because wizard doesn't want people to play a format in which they get no profit and when you buy into, you don't have to buy anything else.
so yeah, buying counterfeits could be even a positive thing since wizard would start to get less money and thus forced to do something good for the players for once
/edit There is one thing I just don't understand. You seem to have no problem screwing Wizards over by buying counterfeits. However you have some sort of moral code that won't allow you to screw over an individual by trying to pass the card off as legit? Both acts are infringing on Wizards copyrights, yet one is acceptable and one is not?
how can you compare buying counterfits because you want to play a game that otherwise you can't because wizard doesn't let you do so, with scamming people ?
Yeah I give up trying to explain my reasons to the guy (or gal). They seriously think I will print and cut 700 sheets of paper and slide into each card sleeve in the cube? C'mon guy (or gal).
it's wizards fault is people buy fakes. they brought this on themselves so it's perfectly fine if people buy fakes in order to play eternal.
(buying them in order to scam people it's different of course, but still, it's wizards fault again)
Wow.. You are putting the blame on Wizards??? that is like saying a raped woman did it to herself because she dressed provocatively. This is an abhorrent argument to make. I strongly suggest you go back and rethink your position.
Wizards may make the decision to not reprint cards and allow values to climb up but that in NO WAY allows for ILLEGAL activities to take place because you don't agree with their policies. What counterfeiters are doing is illegal, immoral and would be shut down immediately if they could be found. I do not understand how anyone can say with a straight face that this someone else's fault.
... on second thought you have got to be trolling me. Nobody could really have this opinion
You cannot be serious, did you just compare a violent and traumatizing crime to ripping off a massively profitable company that has proven ad nauseum that they have no real ethics and care only about the bottom line? That is sickening. I personally don't use proxies, convincing or otherwise, but that is because I have nowhere to play Legacy. Wizards has sped up rotation on Standard and let the prices of other formats go out of control, forcing anyone playing on any justifiable budget out of real competition, then banned thousands of dollars worth of deck into unplayability. We mean nothing to them beyond dollar signs, and we owe them nothing
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Just as a reminder, Promotion of Illegal Activity is disallowed on MTGSalvation, and promotion of counterfeit cards falls into this. I get that this is the Reserved List Discussion, and proxies and/or counterfeit cards can often come up in this context, but promotion of counterfeit cards isn't something we can condone.
this makes no sense and you should use more appropriate examples and in the future try not to put words in other people mouth's
yes i blame wizard and i find nothing wrong with that honestly. wizards only cares about three things:
- standard
- limited
- commander
wizards hates eternal and we all know that. it has absolutely no respect for players ( an example: banning to death decks and making people 1) build a new deck hoping it will not get the axe too 2) quit magic ). the reason the reserved list is here is not because they want to preserve collectors investment (a alpha lotus place will not change in value if they reprint it c'mon) but because wizard doesn't want people to play a format in which they get no profit and when you buy into, you don't have to buy anything else.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. Wizards is a corporation whose primary goal is... wait for it... to MAKE MONEY! Of course they are going to do what makes them the most money. What do you expect? Do you work for free and the betterment of everyone around you? do you job hop to at another company to make more money? Of course we do! That is a capitalistic society. You can expect Wizards to do what is in their best interests. Just like we can expect you to do the same. Just because those two things don't line up for you does not condone you breaking the law to get your way. And before you ask, knowingly purchasing illegally copyrighted material is... illegal!
As for Wizards hating eternal, how can you possibly come up with such a statement? 5 years ago they freaking created an eternal format specifically to get around their previous mistake of the reserved list! You may not agree with how they have managed it, but to say they hate eternal formats is just wrong. Additionally, Commander is an eternal format.
Your reasons of banning to death decks shows a very poor understanding of the formats. Go to the modern subforum and do some reading about the banlist discussion. Most agree with every ban Wizards has done with the exception of Splinter Twin. Additionally, almost the entire Modern subforum was calling for some sort of a ban on the recent Eldrazi menace. Pod? Summer Bloom? Storm? Modern is a healthier format because those archetypes are not around. Additionally, Wizards just gave the format a boost by UNBANNING Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek!
On Legacy, the only cards banned there are on the restricted list for Vintage because those cards are absurdly powerful. On Vintage, those cards are banned because they have to do with Ante or manual dexterity.
So tell me, which eternal format is Wizards actively hating out? Commander? Nope - they are creating Commander decks every year. Modern? Nope - they just gave that format a shot in the arm and did 2 Modern Masters sets to help control pricing and increase availability. Legacy? Nope, Eternal Masters will help there as well. Vintage? It hasn't seen support in years because of the aforementioned reserved list. And simply put if Wizards hated these eternal formats so much, why do they even bother to keep them? Wizards could just outright say "Vintage and Legacy are no longer legal formats" and that would be the end of it.
Your argument that Wizards is only keeping the reserved list to preserve collectors investments is pure supposition on your part. To be honest, nobody outside of Wizards has a real understanding of why they maintain the list. Wizards freely admits it was a mistake, but it is a promise they intend to keep. One thing about your argument also stuck out as odd. Wizards has no respect for its players, but wants to wants to artificially maintain the value of said player's collections? Which one is it?
so yeah, buying counterfeits could be even a positive thing since wizard would start to get less money and thus forced to do something good for the players for once
/edit There is one thing I just don't understand. You seem to have no problem screwing Wizards over by buying counterfeits. However you have some sort of moral code that won't allow you to screw over an individual by trying to pass the card off as legit? Both acts are infringing on Wizards copyrights, yet one is acceptable and one is not?
how can you compare buying counterfeits because you want to play a game that otherwise you can't because wizard doesn't let you do so, with scamming people ?
In no way shape or form is buying counterfeits good for the whole of the game. It undermines the entire secondary market and the game's economy. that sort of thing can absolutely shatter the game itself.
On your last statement, I can easily make the comparison. Both are illegal. You are not entitled to play with every card Wizards ever created because you are Xenob8. Wizards is not the one making the decision on what you can and cannot do. That is all on you. If it were up to Wizards, they would have you in playing their game as much as possible with everything you had. That makes them more money. If your situation is such that you cannot afford to play $3,000 decks for Legacy or $1,000 decks for Modern, then consider finding a less expensive hobby or work intelligently towards those goals.
Do not, however, do things that are illegal and subvert the hard work that everyone at Wizards has put into this fine game.
[quote from="JoeyJellico »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334928-reserved-list-discussion?comment=2882"]
/edit There is one thing I just don't understand. You seem to have no problem screwing Wizards over by buying counterfeits. However you have some sort of moral code that won't allow you to screw over an individual by trying to pass the card off as legit? Both acts are infringing on Wizards copyrights, yet one is acceptable and one is not?
Every card on the reserve list is out of print and only available on the secondary market which means, by definition, that you aren't taking any sales from Wizards by buying or making counterfeits of RL cards as wizards was not selling them anyway.
Whether there are other reasons not to buy counterfeits/proxies solely for playing with and not for trading or selling is still up for debate, but the "it hurts wizards" argument doesn't hold water.
this makes no sense and you should use more appropriate examples and in the future try not to put words in other people mouth's
yes i blame wizard and i find nothing wrong with that honestly. wizards only cares about three things:
- standard
- limited
- commander
wizards hates eternal and we all know that. it has absolutely no respect for players ( an example: banning to death decks and making people 1) build a new deck hoping it will not get the axe too 2) quit magic ). the reason the reserved list is here is not because they want to preserve collectors investment (a alpha lotus place will not change in value if they reprint it c'mon) but because wizard doesn't want people to play a format in which they get no profit and when you buy into, you don't have to buy anything else.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. Wizards is a corporation whose primary goal is... wait for it... to MAKE MONEY! Of course they are going to do what makes them the most money. What do you expect? Do you work for free and the betterment of everyone around you? do you job hop to at another company to make more money? Of course we do! That is a capitalistic society. You can expect Wizards to do what is in their best interests. Just like we can expect you to do the same. Just because those two things don't line up for you does not condone you breaking the law to get your way. And before you ask, knowingly purchasing illegally copyrighted material is... illegal!
As for Wizards hating eternal, how can you possibly come up with such a statement? 5 years ago they freaking created an eternal format specifically to get around their previous mistake of the reserved list! You may not agree with how they have managed it, but to say they hate eternal formats is just wrong. Additionally, Commander is an eternal format.
Your reasons of banning to death decks shows a very poor understanding of the formats. Go to the modern subforum and do some reading about the banlist discussion. Most agree with every ban Wizards has done with the exception of Splinter Twin. Additionally, almost the entire Modern subforum was calling for some sort of a ban on the recent Eldrazi menace. Pod? Summer Bloom? Storm? Modern is a healthier format because those archetypes are not around. Additionally, Wizards just gave the format a boost by UNBANNING Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek!
On Legacy, the only cards banned there are on the restricted list for Vintage because those cards are absurdly powerful. On Vintage, those cards are banned because they have to do with Ante or manual dexterity.
So tell me, which eternal format is Wizards actively hating out? Commander? Nope - they are creating Commander decks every year. Modern? Nope - they just gave that format a shot in the arm and did 2 Modern Masters sets to help control pricing and increase availability. Legacy? Nope, Eternal Masters will help there as well. Vintage? It hasn't seen support in years because of the aforementioned reserved list. And simply put if Wizards hated these eternal formats so much, why do they even bother to keep them? Wizards could just outright say "Vintage and Legacy are no longer legal formats" and that would be the end of it.
Your argument that Wizards is only keeping the reserved list to preserve collectors investments is pure supposition on your part. To be honest, nobody outside of Wizards has a real understanding of why they maintain the list. Wizards freely admits it was a mistake, but it is a promise they intend to keep. One thing about your argument also stuck out as odd. Wizards has no respect for its players, but wants to wants to artificially maintain the value of said player's collections? Which one is it?
What kind of society do we live in where maximizing profits is considered the pinnacle of morality? Why is copyright regularly strengthened and copyright protection regularly lengthened? Perhaps because we live in a capitalistic society with a corrupt political system owned by the wealthy?
I prefer to base my societal morals on preferential utilitarianism. This means we should aim to maximize everyone's preferences. If you prefer to spend tons of money on mtg cards, then do so. If others prefer to purchase and play with proxies, then let them. When WOTC starts losing money we can talk about the negative impact of proxies on the mtg economy. As of right now there are arguments proxies are both beneficial and detrimental to mtg as a game and mtg as an economy.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
[quote from="JoeyJellico »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334928-reserved-list-discussion?comment=2882"]
/edit There is one thing I just don't understand. You seem to have no problem screwing Wizards over by buying counterfeits. However you have some sort of moral code that won't allow you to screw over an individual by trying to pass the card off as legit? Both acts are infringing on Wizards copyrights, yet one is acceptable and one is not?
Every card on the reserve list is out of print and only available on the secondary market which means, by definition, that you aren't taking any sales from Wizards by buying or making counterfeits of RL cards as wizards was not selling them anyway.
Whether there are other reasons not to buy counterfeits/proxies solely for playing with and not for trading or selling is still up for debate, but the "it hurts wizards" argument doesn't hold water.
Sure it does. You see it pop up here all the time on the forums. Each time someone is concerned about whether or not the card they just bought was a fake adds on. It's to the point now that there are many who refuse to purchase (and this is just the most common example) revised dual lands that are in NM shape for fear they are counterfeit.
If counterfeiting didn't hurt Wizards at all, then why did they implement the hologram into their cards in 2014? That is an added expense that they didn't need to take on.
It has had a direct and negative impact by adding costs to Wizards' manufacturing of cards not to mention shaking consumer confidence. The counterfeit issue is FAR larger than just that of those cards on the reserve list. Someone on here earlier posted that the 3 most counterfeit cards were Tarmogoyf, Liliana of the Veil, and Scalding Tarn.
What kind of society do we live in where maximizing profits is considered the pinnacle of morality? Why is copyright regularly strengthened and copyright protection regularly lengthened? Perhaps because we live in a capitalistic society with a corrupt political system owned by the wealthy?
I prefer to base my societal morals on preferential utilitarianism. This means we should aim to maximize everyone's preferences. If you prefer to spend tons of money on mtg cards, then do so. If others prefer to purchase and play with proxies, then let them. When WOTC starts losing money we can talk about the negative impact of proxies on the mtg economy. As of right now there are arguments proxies are both beneficial and detrimental to mtg as a game and mtg as an economy.
You should re-read my statements. Nowhere did I say making money was the pinnacle of morality. I said that as a corporation their PRIMARY goal is to make money. I think you have strayed far into the political arena with this comment. Since this thread is already getting derailed from its original intent to counterfeiting, I'm going to pass on what you have said. But as one parting go, if you do not like the US and it's system, there are plenty of other places in the world that are more accepting of your views.
as for the counterfeit angle, it is wrong. It is both immoral and illegal. I fail to understand how people are perfectly fine doing these things.
@SealTeamFive: First off, I will state I neither agree nor disagree with players buying counterfeits.
You are viewing from the perspective of a company. Try viewing it from the perspective of a consumer. Consumers want to receive more value for their money. Buying counterfeits is cost saving to consumers as outsourcing is to companies. I can only hope something beneficial arises from counterfeiting. (I will not hold my breath on this)
this makes no sense and you should use more appropriate examples and in the future try not to put words in other people mouth's
yes i blame wizard and i find nothing wrong with that honestly. wizards only cares about three things:
- standard
- limited
- commander
wizards hates eternal and we all know that. it has absolutely no respect for players ( an example: banning to death decks and making people 1) build a new deck hoping it will not get the axe too 2) quit magic ). the reason the reserved list is here is not because they want to preserve collectors investment (a alpha lotus place will not change in value if they reprint it c'mon) but because wizard doesn't want people to play a format in which they get no profit and when you buy into, you don't have to buy anything else.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. Wizards is a corporation whose primary goal is... wait for it... to MAKE MONEY! Of course they are going to do what makes them the most money. What do you expect? Do you work for free and the betterment of everyone around you? do you job hop to at another company to make more money? Of course we do! That is a capitalistic society. You can expect Wizards to do what is in their best interests. Just like we can expect you to do the same. Just because those two things don't line up for you does not condone you breaking the law to get your way. And before you ask, knowingly purchasing illegally copyrighted material is... illegal!
As for Wizards hating eternal, how can you possibly come up with such a statement? 5 years ago they freaking created an eternal format specifically to get around their previous mistake of the reserved list! You may not agree with how they have managed it, but to say they hate eternal formats is just wrong. Additionally, Commander is an eternal format.
Your reasons of banning to death decks shows a very poor understanding of the formats. Go to the modern subforum and do some reading about the banlist discussion. Most agree with every ban Wizards has done with the exception of Splinter Twin. Additionally, almost the entire Modern subforum was calling for some sort of a ban on the recent Eldrazi menace. Pod? Summer Bloom? Storm? Modern is a healthier format because those archetypes are not around. Additionally, Wizards just gave the format a boost by UNBANNING Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek!
On Legacy, the only cards banned there are on the restricted list for Vintage because those cards are absurdly powerful. On Vintage, those cards are banned because they have to do with Ante or manual dexterity.
So tell me, which eternal format is Wizards actively hating out? Commander? Nope - they are creating Commander decks every year. Modern? Nope - they just gave that format a shot in the arm and did 2 Modern Masters sets to help control pricing and increase availability. Legacy? Nope, Eternal Masters will help there as well. Vintage? It hasn't seen support in years because of the aforementioned reserved list. And simply put if Wizards hated these eternal formats so much, why do they even bother to keep them? Wizards could just outright say "Vintage and Legacy are no longer legal formats" and that would be the end of it.
Your argument that Wizards is only keeping the reserved list to preserve collectors investments is pure supposition on your part. To be honest, nobody outside of Wizards has a real understanding of why they maintain the list. Wizards freely admits it was a mistake, but it is a promise they intend to keep. One thing about your argument also stuck out as odd. Wizards has no respect for its players, but wants to wants to artificially maintain the value of said player's collections? Which one is it?
What kind of society do we live in where maximizing profits is considered the pinnacle of morality? Why is copyright regularly strengthened and copyright protection regularly lengthened? Perhaps because we live in a capitalistic society with a corrupt political system owned by the wealthy?
I prefer to base my societal morals on preferential utilitarianism. This means we should aim to maximize everyone's preferences. If you prefer to spend tons of money on mtg cards, then do so. If others prefer to purchase and play with proxies, then let them. When WOTC starts losing money we can talk about the negative impact of proxies on the mtg economy. As of right now there are arguments proxies are both beneficial and detrimental to mtg as a game and mtg as an economy.
The entire reason why our economy is based on Capitalism IS DUE TO UTILITARIANISM. We feel that under Capitalism we are all better off than under another economic theory. Modern medicine, modern agricultural techniques, space exploration, etc. were all built on the backs of Capitalism. Capitalism may benefit some more than others, but it benefits us all somewhat. Adam Smith, Invisible Hand, good stuff.
When you say "invisible hand," do you mean the market forces that make counterfeiting profitable? The very same market forces that prop up the M:tG secondary market? You can't preserve the value of authentic cards without ensuring that counterfeiting real cards is a profitable business model, which is capitalism at its finest: see an unfilled demand, step in and fill it. Free Market capitalism is even more open, with anyone who can afford to step in and produce a product is free to attempt to make a profit on that product. just because Wizards doesn't want any competition, doesn't mean "no competition" is good for the game. It's definitely not good for the players.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
When you say "invisible hand," do you mean the market forces that make counterfeiting profitable? The very same market forces that prop up the M:tG secondary market? You can't preserve the value of authentic cards without ensuring that counterfeiting real cards is a profitable business model, which is capitalism at its finest: see an unfilled demand, step in and fill it. Free Market capitalism is even more open, with anyone who can afford to step in and produce a product is free to attempt to make a profit on that product. just because Wizards doesn't want any competition, doesn't mean "no competition" is good for the game. It's definitely not good for the players.
No I don't mean anything in reference to the reserved list. I was simply responding to someone who stated that they don't want to live in a Capitalist society. Considering alternatives, I really think that you do.
@SealTeamFive: First off, I will state I neither agree nor disagree with players buying counterfeits.
You are viewing from the perspective of a company. Try viewing it from the perspective of a consumer. Consumers want to receive more value for their money. Buying counterfeits is cost saving to consumers as outsourcing is to companies. I can only hope something beneficial arises from counterfeiting. (I will not hold my breath on this)
As odd as it may seem, I am looking at it from a players perspective (mine). Granted, I am a player that is heavily invested in the game. Two things concern me greatly. #1 is that the bottom will fall out and tens of thousands of dollars that I have invested in the game will be worthless overnight, and #2 is that counterfeiting undermines all of the legitimate cards that I have.
By keeping Wizards' business model whole, I am also protecting my own interests and the cards that I (we) own.
Additionally, I fully understand that people are either unwilling or unable to play with $3,000 decks. What I used to do was print cards off or make Xerox copies to play with. It is more unwieldy to have pieces of paper stuck behind cards, but for the purposes of casual play it had no difference. That is really what we're talking about here, isn't it? Casual play? My problem is with people who think that counterfeits that are designed to look like the real thing enter circulation is ok. That's bad for everyone.
Regardless of how counterfeits are played, players playing counterfeits are likely not invested in MtG.
But thats only my train of logical thoughts. For you and I, whether emotionally or financially, we are invested in MtG and buying legit cards is our way of ensuring WotC's business model.
Those players just play MtG casually, even step into FNM and maybe able to earn packs or even worse.. selling counterfeits. With cards costing that much, it will attract all sorts of profiteers.
Regardless of how counterfeits are played, players playing counterfeits are likely not invested in MtG.
But thats only my train of logical thoughts. For you and I, whether emotionally or financially, we are invested in MtG and buying legit cards is our way of ensuring WotC's business model.
Those players just play MtG casually, even step into FNM and maybe able to earn packs or even worse.. selling counterfeits. With cards costing that much, it will attract all sorts of profiteers.
Very true. while I like to think I'm not emotionally tied to these kinds of arguments, I clearly am. We're not going to solve these problems on forums, but sometimes I feel like the only person standing in defense of these issues.
When you say "invisible hand," do you mean the market forces that make counterfeiting profitable? The very same market forces that prop up the M:tG secondary market? You can't preserve the value of authentic cards without ensuring that counterfeiting real cards is a profitable business model, which is capitalism at its finest: see an unfilled demand, step in and fill it. Free Market capitalism is even more open, with anyone who can afford to step in and produce a product is free to attempt to make a profit on that product. just because Wizards doesn't want any competition, doesn't mean "no competition" is good for the game. It's definitely not good for the players.
No I don't mean anything in reference to the reserved list. I was simply responding to someone who stated that they don't want to live in a Capitalist society. Considering alternatives, I really think that you do.
Someone said they don't want to live in a Capitalist society?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
this makes no sense and you should use more appropriate examples and in the future try not to put words in other people mouth's
yes i blame wizard and i find nothing wrong with that honestly. wizards only cares about three things:
- standard
- limited
- commander
wizards hates eternal and we all know that. it has absolutely no respect for players ( an example: banning to death decks and making people 1) build a new deck hoping it will not get the axe too 2) quit magic ). the reason the reserved list is here is not because they want to preserve collectors investment (a alpha lotus place will not change in value if they reprint it c'mon) but because wizard doesn't want people to play a format in which they get no profit and when you buy into, you don't have to buy anything else.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. Wizards is a corporation whose primary goal is... wait for it... to MAKE MONEY! Of course they are going to do what makes them the most money. What do you expect? Do you work for free and the betterment of everyone around you? do you job hop to at another company to make more money? Of course we do! That is a capitalistic society. You can expect Wizards to do what is in their best interests. Just like we can expect you to do the same. Just because those two things don't line up for you does not condone you breaking the law to get your way. And before you ask, knowingly purchasing illegally copyrighted material is... illegal!
As for Wizards hating eternal, how can you possibly come up with such a statement? 5 years ago they freaking created an eternal format specifically to get around their previous mistake of the reserved list! You may not agree with how they have managed it, but to say they hate eternal formats is just wrong. Additionally, Commander is an eternal format.
Your reasons of banning to death decks shows a very poor understanding of the formats. Go to the modern subforum and do some reading about the banlist discussion. Most agree with every ban Wizards has done with the exception of Splinter Twin. Additionally, almost the entire Modern subforum was calling for some sort of a ban on the recent Eldrazi menace. Pod? Summer Bloom? Storm? Modern is a healthier format because those archetypes are not around. Additionally, Wizards just gave the format a boost by UNBANNING Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek!
On Legacy, the only cards banned there are on the restricted list for Vintage because those cards are absurdly powerful. On Vintage, those cards are banned because they have to do with Ante or manual dexterity.
So tell me, which eternal format is Wizards actively hating out? Commander? Nope - they are creating Commander decks every year. Modern? Nope - they just gave that format a shot in the arm and did 2 Modern Masters sets to help control pricing and increase availability. Legacy? Nope, Eternal Masters will help there as well. Vintage? It hasn't seen support in years because of the aforementioned reserved list. And simply put if Wizards hated these eternal formats so much, why do they even bother to keep them? Wizards could just outright say "Vintage and Legacy are no longer legal formats" and that would be the end of it.
Your argument that Wizards is only keeping the reserved list to preserve collectors investments is pure supposition on your part. To be honest, nobody outside of Wizards has a real understanding of why they maintain the list. Wizards freely admits it was a mistake, but it is a promise they intend to keep. One thing about your argument also stuck out as odd. Wizards has no respect for its players, but wants to wants to artificially maintain the value of said player's collections? Which one is it?
What kind of society do we live in where maximizing profits is considered the pinnacle of morality? Why is copyright regularly strengthened and copyright protection regularly lengthened? Perhaps because we live in a capitalistic society with a corrupt political system owned by the wealthy?
I prefer to base my societal morals on preferential utilitarianism. This means we should aim to maximize everyone's preferences. If you prefer to spend tons of money on mtg cards, then do so. If others prefer to purchase and play with proxies, then let them. When WOTC starts losing money we can talk about the negative impact of proxies on the mtg economy. As of right now there are arguments proxies are both beneficial and detrimental to mtg as a game and mtg as an economy.
The entire reason why our economy is based on Capitalism IS DUE TO UTILITARIANISM. We feel that under Capitalism we are all better off than under another economic theory. Modern medicine, modern agricultural techniques, space exploration, etc. were all built on the backs of Capitalism. Capitalism may benefit some more than others, but it benefits us all somewhat. Adam Smith, Invisible Hand, good stuff.
I think you are attributing too much to capitalism. Modern medicine, modern agricultural techniques and space exploration (to use the examples you put forward) were successful for many reasons, including public investment in education, public subsidization of education, public investment in space exploration, cold war desire to beat Russia to the moon, high taxes on the wealthy, writing that allowed us to pass knowledge on to others, etc. You also seem to brush over the fact that copyright protections are guaranteed by the government and set by the government, but heavily influenced by lobbying groups and big money.
Lakanna also said it right in that the 'invisible hand' of the market makes counterfeiting profitable. Many of us who mention counterfeits in mtg to others note that the absurdly high prices of mtg cards and WOTC lack of will to reprint staples and competitively essential cards incentivizes counterfeiting. The higher prices go the more incentive counterfeiters have to produce counterfeits indistinguishable from officially produced mtg cards. Welcome to the free market at work.
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Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
Regardless of how counterfeits are played, players playing counterfeits are likely not invested in MtG.
But thats only my train of logical thoughts. For you and I, whether emotionally or financially, we are invested in MtG and buying legit cards is our way of ensuring WotC's business model.
Those players just play MtG casually, even step into FNM and maybe able to earn packs or even worse.. selling counterfeits. With cards costing that much, it will attract all sorts of profiteers.
It's a logical train of thought, but narrow.
I've been playing off and on since Revised. I'd bet that I've "invested" more time and money into the game than the majority of forum posters. And yet, I'm all for reprints, low prices, accessibility, and more people playing the game. Why?
Easy: I'm expecting a different sort of payoff. You believe your "investment" in the game should pay off in dollars and cents: that it should have monetary compensation, and that you should be financially rewarded for your investment. I believe that the payoff for the game is having fun and interesting games.
When someone looks at the prices for a Legacy, Modern, or even Standard deck, and then decides the format is too expensive for them, that cuts into potential fun games. Every player who decides to cash out because they can't keep up with the prices, that's interesting games lost. And every time someone puts "the value of my cards" over "getting more people to play," it just frustrates me. Legacy is a stagnant format because of the RL: there are a finite number of dual lands, and demand can never be satisfied while the RL exists.
Wizards has allowed people with a selfish interest in keeping prices high to dictate what is good for them. Those people have no vested interest in what is good for the game as a whole: they're entirely selfish actors. While that isn't a bad thing in and of itself, it IS a bad thing to allow them to dictate terms of production to the company that actually produces the cards. The RL was a foolish decision, where Wizards surrendered their own agency over their IP to a third party with no vested interest in keeping that IP healthy and growing. It was a bad business decision then and it remains a bad business decision today.
Breaking the RL breaks the trust of a relatively few high-end investors. Keeping it slowly erodes the faith of millions of people who WANT to play with the cards that Wizards has decided to put forever out of their reach. I would suggest that in the long run, that slow erosion of faith in Wizards to do right by the players, that belief that they will screw players over to favor the secondary market, will do more harm than any broken promise ever could.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
it's wizards fault is people buy fakes. they brought this on themselves so it's perfectly fine if people buy fakes in order to play eternal.
(buying them in order to scam people it's different of course, but still, it's wizards fault again)
This guy gets it. I would be fine if the backs said FAKE in giant font. I would never try and "cash in" and sell them for a (BIG) profit. Besides, I'd miss them in my vintage cube.
And as for the paper in sleeves thing, it changes the density of the card somewhat having a piece of paper shoved in over a macabre waltz. I can feel it when i shuffle.
I understand the density issue. I've felt it before. The best answer is to put a piece of paper over every card in the cube. That at least makes it consistent all the way through. Not the greatest solution, but it still works. If the cards did say FAKE all the way through I'd be fine as well. What these people are doing though, is attempting to pass off counterfeits as the real deal. I hope every one of them gets shut down and thrown in jail.
/edit There is one thing I just don't understand. You seem to have no problem screwing Wizards over by buying counterfeits. However you have some sort of moral code that won't allow you to screw over an individual by trying to pass the card off as legit? Both acts are infringing on Wizards copyrights, yet one is acceptable and one is not?
How is it screwing over wizards? They aren't losing any money over it sincr they eont be reprinting the cards
Breaking the RL breaks the trust of a relatively few high-end investors. Keeping it slowly erodes the faith of millions of people who WANT to play with the cards that Wizards has decided to put forever out of their reach. I would suggest that in the long run, that slow erosion of faith in Wizards to do right by the players, that belief that they will screw players over to favor the secondary market, will do more harm than any broken promise ever could.
I understand most of the arguments for and against the RL, but this one seems really odd. How does Wizards not doing something they said they wouldn't do erode the faith of magic players? I can understand that people would be upset over this decision and why the fact that is was made in the first place brings WOTCs policies into question, but how does upholding it erode your faith in the company?
If this is based on the theory that a majority of players want the RL dead and WOTC should give into the majority. Then it is flawed at its base, the majority of players have never heard of and don't care about the RL. This is because the majority of actual players don't play any kind of competitive games but play kitchen table magic.
Also the person you quoted was talking about counterfeits and you go off on a tangent of monetary vs emotional value that has little to do with most counterfeits.
Also the person you quoted was talking about counterfeits and you go off on a tangent of monetary vs emotional value that has little to do with most counterfeits.
My thoughts exactly!
It lost me after this line: "It's a logical train of thought, but narrow."
@SealTeamFive: Neither can we do a thing about RL nor counterfeits.
When someone looks at the prices for a Legacy, Modern, or even Standard deck, and then decides the format is too expensive for them, that cuts into potential fun games. Every player who decides to cash out because they can't keep up with the prices, that's interesting games lost.
I would say that is at least partly wrong. Why? Because Modern only was created because of reserved list issues in legacy. In the forum i read time and again that modern is the favorite format for many peoples, and all those modern games would have been lost if the legacy price-barriere wouldn´t have gone that high, because modern would never have been created.
The same holds true for pauper, there are people enjoying that format.
Modern is more what people expected "Extended" to be, till it started to rotate into "old Standard".
However, modern isnt much cheaper than legacy and the reserved list has little to no impact on the prices. Dual-lands are the clear outstanding thing, anything else isnt more expensive than any other expensive card in modern would be.
I understand most of the arguments for and against the RL, but this one seems really odd. How does Wizards not doing something they said they wouldn't do erode the faith of magic players? I can understand that people would be upset over this decision and why the fact that is was made in the first place brings WOTCs policies into question, but how does upholding it erode your faith in the company?
If this is based on the theory that a majority of players want the RL dead and WOTC should give into the majority. Then it is flawed at its base, the majority of players have never heard of and don't care about the RL. This is because the majority of actual players don't play any kind of competitive games but play kitchen table magic.
Actually based more on the theory that, if a card exists, people will want to play with it. And that refusing to reprint cards due to the influence of people outside Wizards implies that they are more important than their players. Similar to how the bump to Mythic for Goyf made a lot of people wonder, and MaRo finally just admitted it was at least in part to "preserve the value" of existing cards. This indicates that they are willing to put "what's best for players" and "what's best for the game" at lower priorities in order to placate a small subset of investors. I have faith in WotC to not upset the status quo, no matter how toxic that status quo gets. That's not exactly a positive thing, though...
Also the person you quoted was talking about counterfeits and you go off on a tangent of monetary vs emotional value that has little to do with most counterfeits.
The implication was that people who are "more invested" in the game are also invested in the current implementation of the RL and the current business model. I apologize if I misunderstood that. I wanted to point out that you could be invested in the game, but not be expecting to make a profit on it, instead reaping a reward in a different fashion. For me, having other people to play against in whatever format will always be valued more highly than whatever certain pieces of cardboard are worth, monetarily.
Any company who decides to stop producing a popular, profitable product just to make it more valuable to the customers who already have one is... That might be the worst business decision ever. If the market has surplus demand, then SOMEONE is going to step in and fill it. The counterfeiting situation is one that Wizards can fix easily, by reprinting cards people want to play with at sufficient volume to meet demand. Anything less incentivizes counterfeiters. Of course, this kills the secondary market too... or at least makes it less of a breeding ground for price-fixing, price-gouging, rampant speculation, and creating a barrier to the game that's entirely financial.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
I understand most of the arguments for and against the RL, but this one seems really odd. How does Wizards not doing something they said they wouldn't do erode the faith of magic players? I can understand that people would be upset over this decision and why the fact that is was made in the first place brings WOTCs policies into question, but how does upholding it erode your faith in the company?
If this is based on the theory that a majority of players want the RL dead and WOTC should give into the majority. Then it is flawed at its base, the majority of players have never heard of and don't care about the RL. This is because the majority of actual players don't play any kind of competitive games but play kitchen table magic.
Actually based more on the theory that, if a card exists, people will want to play with it. And that refusing to reprint cards due to the influence of people outside Wizards implies that they are more important than their players. Similar to how the bump to Mythic for Goyf made a lot of people wonder, and MaRo finally just admitted it was at least in part to "preserve the value" of existing cards. This indicates that they are willing to put "what's best for players" and "what's best for the game" at lower priorities in order to placate a small subset of investors. I have faith in WotC to not upset the status quo, no matter how toxic that status quo gets. That's not exactly a positive thing, though...
Also the person you quoted was talking about counterfeits and you go off on a tangent of monetary vs emotional value that has little to do with most counterfeits.
The implication was that people who are "more invested" in the game are also invested in the current implementation of the RL and the current business model. I apologize if I misunderstood that. I wanted to point out that you could be invested in the game, but not be expecting to make a profit on it, instead reaping a reward in a different fashion. For me, having other people to play against in whatever format will always be valued more highly than whatever certain pieces of cardboard are worth, monetarily.
Any company who decides to stop producing a popular, profitable product just to make it more valuable to the customers who already have one is... That might be the worst business decision ever. If the market has surplus demand, then SOMEONE is going to step in and fill it. The counterfeiting situation is one that Wizards can fix easily, by reprinting cards people want to play with at sufficient volume to meet demand. Anything less incentivizes counterfeiters. Of course, this kills the secondary market too... or at least makes it less of a breeding ground for price-fixing, price-gouging, rampant speculation, and creating a barrier to the game that's entirely financial.
You do realize that magic needs some cards to be very expensive, which is why Tarmogofy was bumped to mythic. People expect it to cost a significant amount and will be upset if it crashes. The RL looks like it has something to do with this but it doesn't, WOTC won't reprint the expensive cards on the list and not because they are expensive but because it makes little sense to. The cards WOTC wants off the list are those like Thunder Spirit, the ones that are actually choking design space, and I've yet to see anyone advocating the death of the RL for those cards. As seen with gofy WOTC has no interest in killing the secondary market, instead they are doing their best to make sure it thrives. Why? because it insures the proliferation of their game. Counterfeits have little to do with surplus demand, the most counterfeited cards are not in short supply but have such high demand that those who have it expect a high price. So some people feel that while they still want the item they don't want it enough to pay 'market price' so they go to counterfeits.
I'm not sure how to treat your 'theory' certainly there are some people who will want to play with any card that exists but they seem like a very small minority as for most people I don't think the mere existence of a card makes them anymore or less inclined to play with said card. A number of people want to play with cards that don't exists, so they make them. Either way when the RL is brought up it is only about the expensive cards, and while I'm sure a number of people would love to play with Lotuses and Moxen those types of games become boring fast, but no one is stopping your from playing with them at your home with your friends, only in WOTC's sanctioned tournaments.
Finally WOTC isn't deciding to stop producing a popular, profitable product just to make it more valuable. Unless you're only talking about Modern Masters, which was printed in limited supply. They are producing NEW products constantly because they have found this to be the most popular and profitable way of running their business. Sure you could be right and they are making a terrible decision by making new products rather then turning out old products that did well, but considering that they are the ones most concerned with making money for themselves I'm certain they are doing what they have found is the most popular and profitable.
By the way I would like the RL to die so we can get cards like Thunder Spirit, but I'm a very small minority so I don't see Wizards caving to my demands anytime soon.
Edit: So just checked after a long time, WTF happened to Thunder Spirit, why did it become $40+? Were rumors of Eternal Masters enough to make even this humble card spike?
Wow.. You are putting the blame on Wizards??? that is like saying a raped woman did it to herself because she dressed provocatively. This is an abhorrent argument to make. I strongly suggest you go back and rethink your position.
this makes no sense and you should use more appropriate examples and in the future try not to put words in other people mouth's
yes i blame wizard and i find nothing wrong with that honestly. wizards only cares about three things:
- standard
- limited
- commander
wizards hates eternal and we all know that. it has absolutely no respect for players ( an example: banning to death decks and making people 1) build a new deck hoping it will not get the axe too 2) quit magic ). the reason the reserved list is here is not because they want to preserve collectors investment (a alpha lotus place will not change in value if they reprint it c'mon) but because wizard doesn't want people to play a format in which they get no profit and when you buy into, you don't have to buy anything else.
so yeah, buying counterfeits could be even a positive thing since wizard would start to get less money and thus forced to do something good for the players for once
/edit There is one thing I just don't understand. You seem to have no problem screwing Wizards over by buying counterfeits. However you have some sort of moral code that won't allow you to screw over an individual by trying to pass the card off as legit? Both acts are infringing on Wizards copyrights, yet one is acceptable and one is not?
how can you compare buying counterfeits because you want to play a game that otherwise you can't because wizard doesn't let you do so, with scamming people ?
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
You cannot be serious, did you just compare a violent and traumatizing crime to ripping off a massively profitable company that has proven ad nauseum that they have no real ethics and care only about the bottom line? That is sickening. I personally don't use proxies, convincing or otherwise, but that is because I have nowhere to play Legacy. Wizards has sped up rotation on Standard and let the prices of other formats go out of control, forcing anyone playing on any justifiable budget out of real competition, then banned thousands of dollars worth of deck into unplayability. We mean nothing to them beyond dollar signs, and we owe them nothing
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
You are of course entitled to your opinion. Wizards is a corporation whose primary goal is... wait for it... to MAKE MONEY! Of course they are going to do what makes them the most money. What do you expect? Do you work for free and the betterment of everyone around you? do you job hop to at another company to make more money? Of course we do! That is a capitalistic society. You can expect Wizards to do what is in their best interests. Just like we can expect you to do the same. Just because those two things don't line up for you does not condone you breaking the law to get your way. And before you ask, knowingly purchasing illegally copyrighted material is... illegal!
As for Wizards hating eternal, how can you possibly come up with such a statement? 5 years ago they freaking created an eternal format specifically to get around their previous mistake of the reserved list! You may not agree with how they have managed it, but to say they hate eternal formats is just wrong. Additionally, Commander is an eternal format.
Your reasons of banning to death decks shows a very poor understanding of the formats. Go to the modern subforum and do some reading about the banlist discussion. Most agree with every ban Wizards has done with the exception of Splinter Twin. Additionally, almost the entire Modern subforum was calling for some sort of a ban on the recent Eldrazi menace. Pod? Summer Bloom? Storm? Modern is a healthier format because those archetypes are not around. Additionally, Wizards just gave the format a boost by UNBANNING Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek!
On Legacy, the only cards banned there are on the restricted list for Vintage because those cards are absurdly powerful. On Vintage, those cards are banned because they have to do with Ante or manual dexterity.
So tell me, which eternal format is Wizards actively hating out? Commander? Nope - they are creating Commander decks every year. Modern? Nope - they just gave that format a shot in the arm and did 2 Modern Masters sets to help control pricing and increase availability. Legacy? Nope, Eternal Masters will help there as well. Vintage? It hasn't seen support in years because of the aforementioned reserved list. And simply put if Wizards hated these eternal formats so much, why do they even bother to keep them? Wizards could just outright say "Vintage and Legacy are no longer legal formats" and that would be the end of it.
Your argument that Wizards is only keeping the reserved list to preserve collectors investments is pure supposition on your part. To be honest, nobody outside of Wizards has a real understanding of why they maintain the list. Wizards freely admits it was a mistake, but it is a promise they intend to keep. One thing about your argument also stuck out as odd. Wizards has no respect for its players, but wants to wants to artificially maintain the value of said player's collections? Which one is it?
In no way shape or form is buying counterfeits good for the whole of the game. It undermines the entire secondary market and the game's economy. that sort of thing can absolutely shatter the game itself.
On your last statement, I can easily make the comparison. Both are illegal. You are not entitled to play with every card Wizards ever created because you are Xenob8. Wizards is not the one making the decision on what you can and cannot do. That is all on you. If it were up to Wizards, they would have you in playing their game as much as possible with everything you had. That makes them more money. If your situation is such that you cannot afford to play $3,000 decks for Legacy or $1,000 decks for Modern, then consider finding a less expensive hobby or work intelligently towards those goals.
Do not, however, do things that are illegal and subvert the hard work that everyone at Wizards has put into this fine game.
Every card on the reserve list is out of print and only available on the secondary market which means, by definition, that you aren't taking any sales from Wizards by buying or making counterfeits of RL cards as wizards was not selling them anyway.
Whether there are other reasons not to buy counterfeits/proxies solely for playing with and not for trading or selling is still up for debate, but the "it hurts wizards" argument doesn't hold water.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
What kind of society do we live in where maximizing profits is considered the pinnacle of morality? Why is copyright regularly strengthened and copyright protection regularly lengthened? Perhaps because we live in a capitalistic society with a corrupt political system owned by the wealthy?
I prefer to base my societal morals on preferential utilitarianism. This means we should aim to maximize everyone's preferences. If you prefer to spend tons of money on mtg cards, then do so. If others prefer to purchase and play with proxies, then let them. When WOTC starts losing money we can talk about the negative impact of proxies on the mtg economy. As of right now there are arguments proxies are both beneficial and detrimental to mtg as a game and mtg as an economy.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
Sure it does. You see it pop up here all the time on the forums. Each time someone is concerned about whether or not the card they just bought was a fake adds on. It's to the point now that there are many who refuse to purchase (and this is just the most common example) revised dual lands that are in NM shape for fear they are counterfeit.
If counterfeiting didn't hurt Wizards at all, then why did they implement the hologram into their cards in 2014? That is an added expense that they didn't need to take on.
Link to Wizards' announcement
It has had a direct and negative impact by adding costs to Wizards' manufacturing of cards not to mention shaking consumer confidence. The counterfeit issue is FAR larger than just that of those cards on the reserve list. Someone on here earlier posted that the 3 most counterfeit cards were Tarmogoyf, Liliana of the Veil, and Scalding Tarn.
You should re-read my statements. Nowhere did I say making money was the pinnacle of morality. I said that as a corporation their PRIMARY goal is to make money. I think you have strayed far into the political arena with this comment. Since this thread is already getting derailed from its original intent to counterfeiting, I'm going to pass on what you have said. But as one parting go, if you do not like the US and it's system, there are plenty of other places in the world that are more accepting of your views.
as for the counterfeit angle, it is wrong. It is both immoral and illegal. I fail to understand how people are perfectly fine doing these things.
You are viewing from the perspective of a company. Try viewing it from the perspective of a consumer. Consumers want to receive more value for their money. Buying counterfeits is cost saving to consumers as outsourcing is to companies. I can only hope something beneficial arises from counterfeiting. (I will not hold my breath on this)
The entire reason why our economy is based on Capitalism IS DUE TO UTILITARIANISM. We feel that under Capitalism we are all better off than under another economic theory. Modern medicine, modern agricultural techniques, space exploration, etc. were all built on the backs of Capitalism. Capitalism may benefit some more than others, but it benefits us all somewhat. Adam Smith, Invisible Hand, good stuff.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
No I don't mean anything in reference to the reserved list. I was simply responding to someone who stated that they don't want to live in a Capitalist society. Considering alternatives, I really think that you do.
As odd as it may seem, I am looking at it from a players perspective (mine). Granted, I am a player that is heavily invested in the game. Two things concern me greatly. #1 is that the bottom will fall out and tens of thousands of dollars that I have invested in the game will be worthless overnight, and #2 is that counterfeiting undermines all of the legitimate cards that I have.
By keeping Wizards' business model whole, I am also protecting my own interests and the cards that I (we) own.
Additionally, I fully understand that people are either unwilling or unable to play with $3,000 decks. What I used to do was print cards off or make Xerox copies to play with. It is more unwieldy to have pieces of paper stuck behind cards, but for the purposes of casual play it had no difference. That is really what we're talking about here, isn't it? Casual play? My problem is with people who think that counterfeits that are designed to look like the real thing enter circulation is ok. That's bad for everyone.
Regardless of how counterfeits are played, players playing counterfeits are likely not invested in MtG.
But thats only my train of logical thoughts. For you and I, whether emotionally or financially, we are invested in MtG and buying legit cards is our way of ensuring WotC's business model.
Those players just play MtG casually, even step into FNM and maybe able to earn packs or even worse.. selling counterfeits. With cards costing that much, it will attract all sorts of profiteers.
Very true. while I like to think I'm not emotionally tied to these kinds of arguments, I clearly am. We're not going to solve these problems on forums, but sometimes I feel like the only person standing in defense of these issues.
Someone said they don't want to live in a Capitalist society?
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
I think you are attributing too much to capitalism. Modern medicine, modern agricultural techniques and space exploration (to use the examples you put forward) were successful for many reasons, including public investment in education, public subsidization of education, public investment in space exploration, cold war desire to beat Russia to the moon, high taxes on the wealthy, writing that allowed us to pass knowledge on to others, etc. You also seem to brush over the fact that copyright protections are guaranteed by the government and set by the government, but heavily influenced by lobbying groups and big money.
Lakanna also said it right in that the 'invisible hand' of the market makes counterfeiting profitable. Many of us who mention counterfeits in mtg to others note that the absurdly high prices of mtg cards and WOTC lack of will to reprint staples and competitively essential cards incentivizes counterfeiting. The higher prices go the more incentive counterfeiters have to produce counterfeits indistinguishable from officially produced mtg cards. Welcome to the free market at work.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
It's a logical train of thought, but narrow.
I've been playing off and on since Revised. I'd bet that I've "invested" more time and money into the game than the majority of forum posters. And yet, I'm all for reprints, low prices, accessibility, and more people playing the game. Why?
Easy: I'm expecting a different sort of payoff. You believe your "investment" in the game should pay off in dollars and cents: that it should have monetary compensation, and that you should be financially rewarded for your investment. I believe that the payoff for the game is having fun and interesting games.
When someone looks at the prices for a Legacy, Modern, or even Standard deck, and then decides the format is too expensive for them, that cuts into potential fun games. Every player who decides to cash out because they can't keep up with the prices, that's interesting games lost. And every time someone puts "the value of my cards" over "getting more people to play," it just frustrates me. Legacy is a stagnant format because of the RL: there are a finite number of dual lands, and demand can never be satisfied while the RL exists.
Wizards has allowed people with a selfish interest in keeping prices high to dictate what is good for them. Those people have no vested interest in what is good for the game as a whole: they're entirely selfish actors. While that isn't a bad thing in and of itself, it IS a bad thing to allow them to dictate terms of production to the company that actually produces the cards. The RL was a foolish decision, where Wizards surrendered their own agency over their IP to a third party with no vested interest in keeping that IP healthy and growing. It was a bad business decision then and it remains a bad business decision today.
Breaking the RL breaks the trust of a relatively few high-end investors. Keeping it slowly erodes the faith of millions of people who WANT to play with the cards that Wizards has decided to put forever out of their reach. I would suggest that in the long run, that slow erosion of faith in Wizards to do right by the players, that belief that they will screw players over to favor the secondary market, will do more harm than any broken promise ever could.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
How is it screwing over wizards? They aren't losing any money over it sincr they eont be reprinting the cards
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
If this is based on the theory that a majority of players want the RL dead and WOTC should give into the majority. Then it is flawed at its base, the majority of players have never heard of and don't care about the RL. This is because the majority of actual players don't play any kind of competitive games but play kitchen table magic.
Also the person you quoted was talking about counterfeits and you go off on a tangent of monetary vs emotional value that has little to do with most counterfeits.
My thoughts exactly!
It lost me after this line: "It's a logical train of thought, but narrow."
@SealTeamFive: Neither can we do a thing about RL nor counterfeits.
Modern is more what people expected "Extended" to be, till it started to rotate into "old Standard".
However, modern isnt much cheaper than legacy and the reserved list has little to no impact on the prices. Dual-lands are the clear outstanding thing, anything else isnt more expensive than any other expensive card in modern would be.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
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Actually based more on the theory that, if a card exists, people will want to play with it. And that refusing to reprint cards due to the influence of people outside Wizards implies that they are more important than their players. Similar to how the bump to Mythic for Goyf made a lot of people wonder, and MaRo finally just admitted it was at least in part to "preserve the value" of existing cards. This indicates that they are willing to put "what's best for players" and "what's best for the game" at lower priorities in order to placate a small subset of investors. I have faith in WotC to not upset the status quo, no matter how toxic that status quo gets. That's not exactly a positive thing, though...
The implication was that people who are "more invested" in the game are also invested in the current implementation of the RL and the current business model. I apologize if I misunderstood that. I wanted to point out that you could be invested in the game, but not be expecting to make a profit on it, instead reaping a reward in a different fashion. For me, having other people to play against in whatever format will always be valued more highly than whatever certain pieces of cardboard are worth, monetarily.
Any company who decides to stop producing a popular, profitable product just to make it more valuable to the customers who already have one is... That might be the worst business decision ever. If the market has surplus demand, then SOMEONE is going to step in and fill it. The counterfeiting situation is one that Wizards can fix easily, by reprinting cards people want to play with at sufficient volume to meet demand. Anything less incentivizes counterfeiters. Of course, this kills the secondary market too... or at least makes it less of a breeding ground for price-fixing, price-gouging, rampant speculation, and creating a barrier to the game that's entirely financial.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
I'm not sure how to treat your 'theory' certainly there are some people who will want to play with any card that exists but they seem like a very small minority as for most people I don't think the mere existence of a card makes them anymore or less inclined to play with said card. A number of people want to play with cards that don't exists, so they make them. Either way when the RL is brought up it is only about the expensive cards, and while I'm sure a number of people would love to play with Lotuses and Moxen those types of games become boring fast, but no one is stopping your from playing with them at your home with your friends, only in WOTC's sanctioned tournaments.
Finally WOTC isn't deciding to stop producing a popular, profitable product just to make it more valuable. Unless you're only talking about Modern Masters, which was printed in limited supply. They are producing NEW products constantly because they have found this to be the most popular and profitable way of running their business. Sure you could be right and they are making a terrible decision by making new products rather then turning out old products that did well, but considering that they are the ones most concerned with making money for themselves I'm certain they are doing what they have found is the most popular and profitable.
By the way I would like the RL to die so we can get cards like Thunder Spirit, but I'm a very small minority so I don't see Wizards caving to my demands anytime soon.
Edit: So just checked after a long time, WTF happened to Thunder Spirit, why did it become $40+? Were rumors of Eternal Masters enough to make even this humble card spike?