As much as I dislike the RL, and am in favor of reprints, I agree that Wizards would never just throw open the floodgates: they've shown themselves to be pretty conservative with reprints to begin with, and even int he cases where they massively reprinted something, their print runs were close enough that it didn't really crash prices. I don't think that an overprinting on the magnitude of Chronicles is even POSSIBLE at this point, unless several people at WotC all decided to not do exactly the jobs they're being paid for.
It's sad that Chronicles was such a black mark, and the reason the RL exists, because it wasn't reprinting that killed the prices: it was overprinting that made older cards, and Chronicles in general, worthless. The RL was s solution to the wrong problem, which is why it's a failed policy and will always be a failed policy. Fallen Empires was the last set that was really, massively overprinted (Future Sight block didn't sell well due to a combination of factors: it was overprinted based on a flawed demand model, though.)
The RL is no longer necessary. It hasn't been necessary since they got a much better handle on print runs. Chronicles was an outlier, and then MMA was an outlier in the opposite direction: one printed far too much, the other printed far too little. MMA15 was probably about right, size-wise, but the set was so overall weak that there was less demand than expected. I'll make a prediction that Eternal Masters will sell like hotcakes, solely based on Wasteland at rare and FoW at Mythic. Then again, I've mentioned before that I believe WotC could straight-up reprint Homelands, insert Expediton-type cards, and have a best-seller on their hands. Collectors with money ontheir hands will pay for the premium versions of cards, and that's wonderful: it sells packs when they include special versions, makes money for WotC and LGSs, and the collectors get something with real value as a collectible. As long as there are still versions of those cards available for players, just basic cards without any collectible value, I'm all for making this split. But keeping one segment of cards and saying "there are no versions of this card that are not collectible," is ignoring a large part of the consumer base for Magic to begin with: the people who just want the cards to play with.
Eternal masters, not Vintage Masters...
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Yep. I pretty much agree with everything you've said.
The unfortunate reality is that there are some cards that have no uncollectible versions. For many cards it is less of an issue because Vintage just isn't a played format. Some of the biggest offenders were printed in Arabian Nights, Legends and Antiquities. I know several EDH players that want to get a Mishra's Workshop, but that is a card where collectors and players converge onto the same market and the pricing is just ridiculous. In the Legacy scene, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Candelabra of Tawnos come to mind. Sadly I do not have a solution. You are absolutely correct that Wizards should balance both players and collectors. It is areas where one side or the other that dominates where there is a problem. In the case of the reserve list cards it is heavily slanted towards collectors.
/edit After re-reading this, one thought did occur. There are some cards that exist almost solely for their collectible value. The P9 specifically come to mind as they are only viable in Vintage and Cube. Most all who own these cards do so because they are collectible. Nobody really clamors for reprints on these cards because of their status, and quite frankly they are broken to begin with.
Honestly, Since the late 90's, Wizards IMO has done a wonderful job balancing players and collectors. Much of the disagreement involves cards that were printed before 1995.
I'm a contracts attorney and I teach a contracts course so I can shed some light on the issue. However, this statement does not in any way constitute legal advice, it's just my quick thoughts on the matter.
There are two separate legal issues and people are conflating the two: 1) Does the reserve list constitute a binding agreement between Wizards and Consumers, in other words, a contract? 2) Does the legal principle of promissory estoppel create potential liability for Wizards?
1) The reserve list in no way is a contract. Contracts require offer, acceptance, and consideration. In this case there is no offer, acceptance, or consideration. Wizards simply said they wouldn't print cards on the reserve list. There is no consideration from the collectors, they didn't give Wizards anything in exchange for the promise. You can argue they gave them their business on the basis of the promise, but that's more promissory estoppel theory than contract law. This was a promise. Specifically regarding contract law, promises without consideration are worth nothing in a legal sense, absent some other legal theory. I can promise you the moon but that doesn't mean I'm bound to give it you absent offer, acceptance, and consideration.
2) Promissory estoppel is a far thornier legal issue. I'm going to cut and paste here:
In the law of contracts, the doctrine that provides that if a party changes his or her position substantially either by acting or forbearing from acting in reliance upon a gratuitous promise, then that party can enforce the promise although the essential elements of a contract are not present.
Certain elements must be established to invoke promissory estoppel. A promisor—one who makes a promise—makes a gratuitous promise that he should reasonably have expected to induce action or forbearance of a definite and substantial character on the part of the promisee—one to whom a promise has been made. The promisee justifiably relies on the promise. A substantial detriment—that is, an economic loss—ensues to the promisee from action or forbearance. Injustice can be avoided only by enforcing the promise.
The point at issue here is whether the collectors detrimentally relied on the promise by Wizards to never reprint cards on the reserved list. This is going to be difficult to prove for those who purchased their cards prior to the reserved list announcement because they bought the cards without the reserve list promise. For those that purchased thereafter, they would have to prove they would not have purchased the cards BUT FOR the reserve list announcement. In other words, that they wouldn't have bought the cards if there wasn't the reserve list announcement. They would be forced to prove that the reserved list announcement was the very thing that filled them with the confidence to invest in those cards. Very difficult to prove.
Civil liability cases rest on the preponderance of the evidence standard, with the burden being on the plaintiff to prove their side of the case. Typically huge corporations have a strong advantage here because they can bury the Plaintiffs in motion delaying the trial for years and years, bury the plaintiff's attorney in burdensome discovery (although discovery goes both ways), etc. So Wizards would likely have a huge advantage over plaintiffs, i.e. collectors.
However, Wizards may be risk averse in their legal strategy. They may not want to pay the legal fees. In other words, I think it isn't fear that they would lose a potential lawsuit that is driving them. I think they just want to avoid the headache if at all possible. There isn't huge incentive to them printing cards on the reserved list (although this is debatable) and there is a huge potential cost not necessarily in terms of actual legal liability but more so in terms of the immense headache that defending a lawsuit would entail. Why slam my head against a wall when I don't have to? Better to just avoid it.
Just to clarify, I have no preference as to whether the reserved list is abolished or not. As to the legal ramifications I don't want people thinking that my opinion is that it's hopeless. If anything I'm actually in the camp that the plaintiffs don't have a very strong case for promissory estoppel. A better case of promissory estoppel would be I inquire about a pool guy to come clean my pool. His business is informal and doesn't have formalized contracts. There is never formal offer and acceptance but I say something like "it sounds like a good deal and I would like you to come over." Then my phone hangs up and for whatever reason is out of service. We never formalize offer and acceptance. On that basis he comes and cleans my pool. That's a slam dunk case of promissory estoppel. I'm actually in the camp of thinking the plaintiffs (collectors) don't have a strong case. I don't think it's slam dunk for the plaintiffs at all as they would have to prove that the reserve list was the deciding factor in them buying the cards. They have to prove they never would have invested in the cards without the reserve list and I just don't think that's true. Most of them would probably have purchased the cards irrespective of the reserved list. Even if they wouldn't have bought them they have to prove that fact and that's hard to do. I'm just trying to intuit as to why wizards is being so risk averse. I don't think they believe they'll lose the lawsuit. I just think they don't want to deal with it. That doesn't mean it's a strong case for the collectors.
Nobody at WotC will discuss killing the RL, and MaRo has said that he can't talk about why he can't talk about it. It's possible that it's purely internal: he has been told by his boss to not discuss it, no legal team needs to be involved. The fact is that no matter how many people are convinced that Promissory Estoppel is a viable threat, the more I read about it, the less likely it seems.
The other option is an NDA: some entity actually took them to court, and either the judgement or the settlement included a clause that prevented either side from talking about the outcome. Considering that WotC as a company was small-but-growing at the time of Chronicles, a lawsuit really could have hurt them back then, so they settled, and now can no longer discuss the RL. To me, this seems like the single most likely reason, and if true, there's really nothing that can be done.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Nobody at WotC will discuss killing the RL, and MaRo has said that he can't talk about why he can't talk about it. It's possible that it's purely internal: he has been told by his boss to not discuss it, no legal team needs to be involved. The fact is that no matter how many people are convinced that Promissory Estoppel is a viable threat, the more I read about it, the less likely it seems.
The other option is an NDA: some entity actually took them to court, and either the judgement or the settlement included a clause that prevented either side from talking about the outcome. Considering that WotC as a company was small-but-growing at the time of Chronicles, a lawsuit really could have hurt them back then, so they settled, and now can no longer discuss the RL. To me, this seems like the single most likely reason, and if true, there's really nothing that can be done.
That's probably the smartest thing I've read so far. Bingo. That would explain it.
Nobody at WotC will discuss killing the RL, and MaRo has said that he can't talk about why he can't talk about it. It's possible that it's purely internal: he has been told by his boss to not discuss it, no legal team needs to be involved. The fact is that no matter how many people are convinced that Promissory Estoppel is a viable threat, the more I read about it, the less likely it seems.
The other option is an NDA: some entity actually took them to court, and either the judgement or the settlement included a clause that prevented either side from talking about the outcome. Considering that WotC as a company was small-but-growing at the time of Chronicles, a lawsuit really could have hurt them back then, so they settled, and now can no longer discuss the RL. To me, this seems like the single most likely reason, and if true, there's really nothing that can be done.
This is a brilliant piece of analysis. Taking it one step further, they could have easily been taken to court back in 2002 when the commons/uncommons came off the list or in 2010 when they closed the premium loophole. Either way it probably happened after Hasbro acquired Wizards of the Coast (1999).
If it's true, I wonder what the circumstances and or settlement said. It could be very interesting if Wizards put an escape clause or some sort of expiration date on the agreement.
/edit Another thought - they could have been taken to court back in 1996 when they actually created the reserve list in the first place. That would line up as well.
Nobody at WotC will discuss killing the RL, and MaRo has said that he can't talk about why he can't talk about it. It's possible that it's purely internal: he has been told by his boss to not discuss it, no legal team needs to be involved. The fact is that no matter how many people are convinced that Promissory Estoppel is a viable threat, the more I read about it, the less likely it seems.
The other option is an NDA: some entity actually took them to court, and either the judgement or the settlement included a clause that prevented either side from talking about the outcome. Considering that WotC as a company was small-but-growing at the time of Chronicles, a lawsuit really could have hurt them back then, so they settled, and now can no longer discuss the RL. To me, this seems like the single most likely reason, and if true, there's really nothing that can be done.
This is a brilliant piece of analysis. Taking it one step further, they could have easily been taken to court back in 2002 when the commons/uncommons came off the list or in 2010 when they closed the premium loophole. Either way it probably happened after Hasbro acquired Wizards of the Coast (1999).
If it's true, I wonder what the circumstances and or settlement said. It could be very interesting if Wizards put an escape clause or some sort of expiration date on the agreement.
/edit Another thought - they could have been taken to court back in 1996 when they actually created the reserve list in the first place. That would line up as well.
A search on PACER only turns up one case with Wizards as the defendant, and three cases with Hasbro as the defendant. The Wizards case was against Palladium Books because The Primal Order referenced Palladium's game directly, which ended in a settlement.
The most recent of the three (2012) appears to be (the legal document I found was handwritten and it's difficult to read) an innmate suing literally dozens of companies, from Alaska Air Group to the Wisconsin State Journal (and including things like Apple and Hasbro) for "personally participat[ing] in obstructing the administrative remedy process" after things like an allegedly unlawful pat-down search and forced subjection to psychological evaluation. The handwritten list of defendants for the case is literally 6 pages long. As you might expect, the case was essentially laughed out of court, several times by several judges.
The 2009 case was something about the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act, but I can't find the original filing, and it was dismissed for failure to prosecute. Hasbro was a defendant along with a bunch of other toy and entertainment manufacturers.
The judge's order dismissing the 2008 case against Hasbro and Hasbro's president (brought by the same person that later brought the 2009 case) is particularly hilarious. I simply have to copy the end of it, it's too good to not share:
Plaintiff, a federal prisoner proceeding pro se, filed the 21 civil actions listed above against a variety of defendants.
...
The complaints in the above-listed cases must be dismissed because they set forth claims and allegations that are clearly irrational, baseless or frivolous, including, inter alia, that actors Eddie Murphy and Jeff Foxworthy make fun of innmates; that the actor Matt Damon and the character he portrays in a movie, Jason Bourne, have caused plaintiff "brain damage;" and that actor Toby Maguire has a duty to help plaintiff with his "special powers" as "Spiderman." See U.S.C. § 1915A(a); 1915(e)(2); seeDenton v. Hernandez, 504 U.S. 25, 32 (1992). Moreover, plaintiff has not paid the filing fee in connection with these cases, as required by the January 2, 2008 order. Accordingly, the above-listed cases are hereby DISMISSED, and the Clerk shall close the files.
IT IS SO ORDERED.
The order also quotes previous dismissals of cases this guy has brought up (over 160 civil cases filed within a 2-month span at once point), and one judge says it's unclear whether he's mentally ill or just doing it as "a hobby akin to short story writing."
Now, I'm sure there has been more legal action for Hasbro's lawyers (and Wizards' before the acquisition) than 3 cases all in the past 8 years (for example, I know Wizards got into it with MTGSalvation a few years back), but that's what shows up on the Public Access to Court Electronic Records system when you search for Wizards of the Coast or Hasbro as party to a case. And I don't really want to dig a whole lot harder since each query costs money.
That's a nice piece of investigative work Lithl. So it sounds like any kind of legal action that might have occurred outside of court.
Here's another theory (and I'm not 100% on this one). In reading some of the other threads, Wizards had to make deals with the artists my giving them some rights over the cards they produced the artwork over. I had heard that they bought back the rights to the Power 9 and Library of Alexandria as iconic cards. Could the cards that they didn't buy the rights back to be another reason they aren't interested in removing the reserve list?
Here's another theory (and I'm not 100% on this one). In reading some of the other threads, Wizards had to make deals with the artists my giving them some rights over the cards they produced the artwork over. I had heard that they bought back the rights to the Power 9 and Library of Alexandria as iconic cards. Could the cards that they didn't buy the rights back to be another reason they aren't interested in removing the reserve list?
Unlikely. As I understand it, they have to pay those artists each time they use the same art, not the same card. Additionally, not every card subject to those royalty contracts is on the RL; for example, since 2002, the RL does not have a single common card on it, but very close to every card in those early sets has that kind of contract attached. (I don't think Stasis does, since the art for it was a favor from Richard Garfield's aunt.)
The argument that the RL shows some sort of valuable loyalty or reliability is very disconcerting. To respect a business for blindly continuing a decision, even if it is silly, is not a very good corporate trait.
Wizards isn't blindly following this policy. They've tested the waters twice. One time went well for them when it was relatively low risk. The second time didn't. As a matter of fact, AF has said his legal team will not allow him to even talk about the reserve list other than to state that it is in place and Wizards intends to keep its word. That sounds overwhelmingly like they've had in depth legal discussions over this issue over the years.
Utterly irrelevant to the idea that the RL shows a sort of valuable loyalty. The singular adjective of "blindly" does not seem so extreme.
To take from him saying "I can't talk about it" any amount of information is silly.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Wizards should consider putting gold-bordered versions of the ABUR duals, and maybe a few other sought after RL cards into Eternal Masters as "Expedition-type" special inserts.
This would be HUGE for kitchen table players, as these cards would effectively be high quality proxies, and may also be valuable in their own right as collectibles.
I know that MaRo has stated that they consider gold-border as breaking the spirit of the reserve list, but the policy is clearly stated that it only applies to tournament legal cards. And if they were to do a special rarity insert of gold bordered cards, it wouldn't seem like an action that would cause any legal headaches...
Wizards should consider putting gold-bordered versions of the ABUR duals, and maybe a few other sought after RL cards into Eternal Masters as "Expedition-type" special inserts.
This would be HUGE for kitchen table players, as these cards would effectively be high quality proxies, and may also be valuable in their own right as collectibles.
I know that MaRo has stated that they consider gold-border as breaking the spirit of the reserve list, but the policy is clearly stated that it only applies to tournament legal cards. And if they were to do a special rarity insert of gold bordered cards, it wouldn't seem like an action that would cause any legal headaches...
I feel like gold border cards would be a great idea for all reserve list cards. I've suggested this in the past. It fills maybe 30-50% of the demand for these cards. It's not that hard to do. Perfect picture of the card on the front with a gold border. Backside Vintage gold boarder card run, not tournament legal. Just like the worlds decks. While it's not a complete solution I'd be completely for this. Then the next push after this happens would be to get rid of the reserve list completely. I'd take gold bordered at a small victory in the right direction.
How is gold bordered cards any different than just printing some proxies on and then just gluing them to some random cards? If the whole point is to be able to use RL cards casually (not tournament legal), why bother spending money when you can do it for almost free?
Wizards should consider putting gold-bordered versions of the ABUR duals, and maybe a few other sought after RL cards into Eternal Masters as "Expedition-type" special inserts.
This would be HUGE for kitchen table players, as these cards would effectively be high quality proxies, and may also be valuable in their own right as collectibles.
I know that MaRo has stated that they consider gold-border as breaking the spirit of the reserve list, but the policy is clearly stated that it only applies to tournament legal cards. And if they were to do a special rarity insert of gold bordered cards, it wouldn't seem like an action that would cause any legal headaches...
I feel like gold border cards would be a great idea for all reserve list cards. I've suggested this in the past. It fills maybe 30-50% of the demand for these cards. It's not that hard to do. Perfect picture of the card on the front with a gold border. Backside Vintage gold boarder card run, not tournament legal. Just like the worlds decks. While it's not a complete solution I'd be completely for this. Then the next push after this happens would be to get rid of the reserve list completely. I'd take gold bordered at a small victory in the right direction.
How is gold bordered cards any different than just printing some proxies on and then just gluing them to some random cards? If the whole point is to be able to use RL cards casually (not tournament legal), why bother spending money when you can do it for almost free?
you can use them as proxies in tournaments (when permitted)
They also are used in cubes as well. That may be why a gold bordered Gaea's Cradle is $25.
For example, players at my LGS often proxy fetchlands in their modern decks until they rotate out of standard, where the originals are in the standard deck, whereas the glued on ones will be too thick.
The LGS is flexible about it as long as you provide the originals upon request.
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Wizards should consider putting gold-bordered versions of the ABUR duals, and maybe a few other sought after RL cards into Eternal Masters as "Expedition-type" special inserts.
This would be HUGE for kitchen table players, as these cards would effectively be high quality proxies, and may also be valuable in their own right as collectibles.
I know that MaRo has stated that they consider gold-border as breaking the spirit of the reserve list, but the policy is clearly stated that it only applies to tournament legal cards. And if they were to do a special rarity insert of gold bordered cards, it wouldn't seem like an action that would cause any legal headaches...
I feel like gold border cards would be a great idea for all reserve list cards. I've suggested this in the past. It fills maybe 30-50% of the demand for these cards. It's not that hard to do. Perfect picture of the card on the front with a gold border. Backside Vintage gold boarder card run, not tournament legal. Just like the worlds decks. While it's not a complete solution I'd be completely for this. Then the next push after this happens would be to get rid of the reserve list completely. I'd take gold bordered at a small victory in the right direction.
How is gold bordered cards any different than just printing some proxies on and then just gluing them to some random cards? If the whole point is to be able to use RL cards casually (not tournament legal), why bother spending money when you can do it for almost free?
you can use them as proxies in tournaments (when permitted)
They also are used in cubes as well. That may be why a gold bordered Gaea's Cradle is $25.
For example, players at my LGS often proxy fetchlands in their modern decks until they rotate out of standard, where the originals are in the standard deck, whereas the glued on ones will be too thick.
The LGS is flexible about it as long as you provide the originals upon request.
Again, how is that different from a free proxy that you make? If it is useable in official tournaments, then they are no longer proxies and jotc just straight up reprinted the cards. If your LGS allows players to proxy as long as they have the original card, then any proxy would work. Does your LGS set an arbitrary quality threshold requirement for proxies?
Just google Black Core MTG Proxies, they come from china and cost less than a dollar each. My cube is awesome thanks to these "criminals".
Seriously dude? You're a big part of the problem. If you're buying these things, then they have a business. An increase in counterfeiting or proxying, whatever you want to call it, should make even you nervous as it completely undermines the legitimacy of real cards!
Just google Black Core MTG Proxies, they come from china and cost less than a dollar each. My cube is awesome thanks to these "criminals".
Seriously dude? You're a big part of the problem. If you're buying these things, then they have a business. An increase in counterfeiting or proxying, whatever you want to call it, should make even you nervous as it completely undermines the legitimacy of real cards!
Nope, it's just a game. One i enjoy and play to have fun. I'm not going to try and pawn these off on someone as the real mccoy, i play to have fun not to make money. If Wotc won't reprint (even gold bordered) some of the awesomeness that is just waaaayyy too pricey. I'll get proxies and have a blast playing with them.:)
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Just google Black Core MTG Proxies, they come from china and cost less than a dollar each. My cube is awesome thanks to these "criminals".
Seriously dude? You're a big part of the problem. If you're buying these things, then they have a business. An increase in counterfeiting or proxying, whatever you want to call it, should make even you nervous as it completely undermines the legitimacy of real cards!
Nope, it's just a game. One i enjoy and play to have fun. I'm not going to try and pawn these off on someone as the real mccoy, i play to have fun not to make money. If Wotc won't reprint (even gold bordered) some of the awesomeness that is just waaaayyy too pricey. I'll get proxies and have a blast playing with them.:)
I really don't care if you call them proxies or not. If you are purchasing Chinese fakes that look even slightly realistic, then you ARE part of the problem. Any money you spend with these degenerates goes right back into them trying to improve the quality of their counterfeits and I have a serious problem with that. If all you want to do is play with "proxies", then go to magiccards.info and print off paper copies for your own personal use.
I understand you may not have the desire to own the real thing and that's fine. What I do not condone is one red cent being handed over to people who are having a direct and negative impact on the game. If nobody bought these counterfeits, they'd quickly realize that they had no market to sell to and would move on to other ventures.
it's wizards fault is people buy fakes. they brought this on themselves so it's perfectly fine if people buy fakes in order to play eternal.
(buying them in order to scam people it's different of course, but still, it's wizards fault again)
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it's wizards fault is people buy fakes. they brought this on themselves so it's perfectly fine if people buy fakes in order to play eternal.
(buying them in order to scam people it's different of course, but still, it's wizards fault again)
This guy gets it. I would be fine if the backs said FAKE in giant font. I would never try and "cash in" and sell them for a (BIG) profit. Besides, I'd miss them in my vintage cube.
And as for the paper in sleeves thing, it changes the density of the card somewhat having a piece of paper shoved in over a macabre waltz. I can feel it when i shuffle.
I know that MaRo has stated that they consider gold-border as breaking the spirit of the reserve list, but the policy is clearly stated that it only applies to tournament legal cards. And if they were to do a special rarity insert of gold bordered cards, it wouldn't seem like an action that would cause any legal headaches...
It's comments like this that convince me that the RL doesn't exist because of legal consequence. If the only reason for the list is because of the legal consequences, then why would they care in the slightest about the 'spirit' of the agreement, when such is not an enforceable element legally? I take then that there must be some other reason, which is why it is valid to make arguments that the RL damages the game, to combat those other reasons for its existence.
Personally, I think WoTC just wants people to play standard and limited.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
it's wizards fault is people buy fakes. they brought this on themselves so it's perfectly fine if people buy fakes in order to play eternal.
(buying them in order to scam people it's different of course, but still, it's wizards fault again)
Wow.. You are putting the blame on Wizards??? that is like saying a raped woman did it to herself because she dressed provocatively. This is an abhorrent argument to make. I strongly suggest you go back and rethink your position.
Wizards may make the decision to not reprint cards and allow values to climb up but that in NO WAY allows for ILLEGAL activities to take place because you don't agree with their policies. What counterfeiters are doing is illegal, immoral and would be shut down immediately if they could be found. I do not understand how anyone can say with a straight face that this someone else's fault.
... on second thought you have got to be trolling me. Nobody could really have this opinion
it's wizards fault is people buy fakes. they brought this on themselves so it's perfectly fine if people buy fakes in order to play eternal.
(buying them in order to scam people it's different of course, but still, it's wizards fault again)
This guy gets it. I would be fine if the backs said FAKE in giant font. I would never try and "cash in" and sell them for a (BIG) profit. Besides, I'd miss them in my vintage cube.
And as for the paper in sleeves thing, it changes the density of the card somewhat having a piece of paper shoved in over a macabre waltz. I can feel it when i shuffle.
I understand the density issue. I've felt it before. The best answer is to put a piece of paper over every card in the cube. That at least makes it consistent all the way through. Not the greatest solution, but it still works. If the cards did say FAKE all the way through I'd be fine as well. What these people are doing though, is attempting to pass off counterfeits as the real deal. I hope every one of them gets shut down and thrown in jail.
/edit There is one thing I just don't understand. You seem to have no problem screwing Wizards over by buying counterfeits. However you have some sort of moral code that won't allow you to screw over an individual by trying to pass the card off as legit? Both acts are infringing on Wizards copyrights, yet one is acceptable and one is not?
It's sad that Chronicles was such a black mark, and the reason the RL exists, because it wasn't reprinting that killed the prices: it was overprinting that made older cards, and Chronicles in general, worthless. The RL was s solution to the wrong problem, which is why it's a failed policy and will always be a failed policy. Fallen Empires was the last set that was really, massively overprinted (Future Sight block didn't sell well due to a combination of factors: it was overprinted based on a flawed demand model, though.)
The RL is no longer necessary. It hasn't been necessary since they got a much better handle on print runs. Chronicles was an outlier, and then MMA was an outlier in the opposite direction: one printed far too much, the other printed far too little. MMA15 was probably about right, size-wise, but the set was so overall weak that there was less demand than expected. I'll make a prediction that Eternal Masters will sell like hotcakes, solely based on Wasteland at rare and FoW at Mythic. Then again, I've mentioned before that I believe WotC could straight-up reprint Homelands, insert Expediton-type cards, and have a best-seller on their hands. Collectors with money ontheir hands will pay for the premium versions of cards, and that's wonderful: it sells packs when they include special versions, makes money for WotC and LGSs, and the collectors get something with real value as a collectible. As long as there are still versions of those cards available for players, just basic cards without any collectible value, I'm all for making this split. But keeping one segment of cards and saying "there are no versions of this card that are not collectible," is ignoring a large part of the consumer base for Magic to begin with: the people who just want the cards to play with.
Eternal masters, not Vintage Masters...
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
The unfortunate reality is that there are some cards that have no uncollectible versions. For many cards it is less of an issue because Vintage just isn't a played format. Some of the biggest offenders were printed in Arabian Nights, Legends and Antiquities. I know several EDH players that want to get a Mishra's Workshop, but that is a card where collectors and players converge onto the same market and the pricing is just ridiculous. In the Legacy scene, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Candelabra of Tawnos come to mind. Sadly I do not have a solution. You are absolutely correct that Wizards should balance both players and collectors. It is areas where one side or the other that dominates where there is a problem. In the case of the reserve list cards it is heavily slanted towards collectors.
/edit After re-reading this, one thought did occur. There are some cards that exist almost solely for their collectible value. The P9 specifically come to mind as they are only viable in Vintage and Cube. Most all who own these cards do so because they are collectible. Nobody really clamors for reprints on these cards because of their status, and quite frankly they are broken to begin with.
Honestly, Since the late 90's, Wizards IMO has done a wonderful job balancing players and collectors. Much of the disagreement involves cards that were printed before 1995.
There are two separate legal issues and people are conflating the two: 1) Does the reserve list constitute a binding agreement between Wizards and Consumers, in other words, a contract? 2) Does the legal principle of promissory estoppel create potential liability for Wizards?
1) The reserve list in no way is a contract. Contracts require offer, acceptance, and consideration. In this case there is no offer, acceptance, or consideration. Wizards simply said they wouldn't print cards on the reserve list. There is no consideration from the collectors, they didn't give Wizards anything in exchange for the promise. You can argue they gave them their business on the basis of the promise, but that's more promissory estoppel theory than contract law. This was a promise. Specifically regarding contract law, promises without consideration are worth nothing in a legal sense, absent some other legal theory. I can promise you the moon but that doesn't mean I'm bound to give it you absent offer, acceptance, and consideration.
2) Promissory estoppel is a far thornier legal issue. I'm going to cut and paste here:
In the law of contracts, the doctrine that provides that if a party changes his or her position substantially either by acting or forbearing from acting in reliance upon a gratuitous promise, then that party can enforce the promise although the essential elements of a contract are not present.
Certain elements must be established to invoke promissory estoppel. A promisor—one who makes a promise—makes a gratuitous promise that he should reasonably have expected to induce action or forbearance of a definite and substantial character on the part of the promisee—one to whom a promise has been made. The promisee justifiably relies on the promise. A substantial detriment—that is, an economic loss—ensues to the promisee from action or forbearance. Injustice can be avoided only by enforcing the promise.
The point at issue here is whether the collectors detrimentally relied on the promise by Wizards to never reprint cards on the reserved list. This is going to be difficult to prove for those who purchased their cards prior to the reserved list announcement because they bought the cards without the reserve list promise. For those that purchased thereafter, they would have to prove they would not have purchased the cards BUT FOR the reserve list announcement. In other words, that they wouldn't have bought the cards if there wasn't the reserve list announcement. They would be forced to prove that the reserved list announcement was the very thing that filled them with the confidence to invest in those cards. Very difficult to prove.
Civil liability cases rest on the preponderance of the evidence standard, with the burden being on the plaintiff to prove their side of the case. Typically huge corporations have a strong advantage here because they can bury the Plaintiffs in motion delaying the trial for years and years, bury the plaintiff's attorney in burdensome discovery (although discovery goes both ways), etc. So Wizards would likely have a huge advantage over plaintiffs, i.e. collectors.
However, Wizards may be risk averse in their legal strategy. They may not want to pay the legal fees. In other words, I think it isn't fear that they would lose a potential lawsuit that is driving them. I think they just want to avoid the headache if at all possible. There isn't huge incentive to them printing cards on the reserved list (although this is debatable) and there is a huge potential cost not necessarily in terms of actual legal liability but more so in terms of the immense headache that defending a lawsuit would entail. Why slam my head against a wall when I don't have to? Better to just avoid it.
The other option is an NDA: some entity actually took them to court, and either the judgement or the settlement included a clause that prevented either side from talking about the outcome. Considering that WotC as a company was small-but-growing at the time of Chronicles, a lawsuit really could have hurt them back then, so they settled, and now can no longer discuss the RL. To me, this seems like the single most likely reason, and if true, there's really nothing that can be done.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
That's probably the smartest thing I've read so far. Bingo. That would explain it.
This is a brilliant piece of analysis. Taking it one step further, they could have easily been taken to court back in 2002 when the commons/uncommons came off the list or in 2010 when they closed the premium loophole. Either way it probably happened after Hasbro acquired Wizards of the Coast (1999).
If it's true, I wonder what the circumstances and or settlement said. It could be very interesting if Wizards put an escape clause or some sort of expiration date on the agreement.
/edit Another thought - they could have been taken to court back in 1996 when they actually created the reserve list in the first place. That would line up as well.
The most recent of the three (2012) appears to be (the legal document I found was handwritten and it's difficult to read) an innmate suing literally dozens of companies, from Alaska Air Group to the Wisconsin State Journal (and including things like Apple and Hasbro) for "personally participat[ing] in obstructing the administrative remedy process" after things like an allegedly unlawful pat-down search and forced subjection to psychological evaluation. The handwritten list of defendants for the case is literally 6 pages long. As you might expect, the case was essentially laughed out of court, several times by several judges.
The 2009 case was something about the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act, but I can't find the original filing, and it was dismissed for failure to prosecute. Hasbro was a defendant along with a bunch of other toy and entertainment manufacturers.
The judge's order dismissing the 2008 case against Hasbro and Hasbro's president (brought by the same person that later brought the 2009 case) is particularly hilarious. I simply have to copy the end of it, it's too good to not share:
The order also quotes previous dismissals of cases this guy has brought up (over 160 civil cases filed within a 2-month span at once point), and one judge says it's unclear whether he's mentally ill or just doing it as "a hobby akin to short story writing."
Now, I'm sure there has been more legal action for Hasbro's lawyers (and Wizards' before the acquisition) than 3 cases all in the past 8 years (for example, I know Wizards got into it with MTGSalvation a few years back), but that's what shows up on the Public Access to Court Electronic Records system when you search for Wizards of the Coast or Hasbro as party to a case. And I don't really want to dig a whole lot harder since each query costs money.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Here's another theory (and I'm not 100% on this one). In reading some of the other threads, Wizards had to make deals with the artists my giving them some rights over the cards they produced the artwork over. I had heard that they bought back the rights to the Power 9 and Library of Alexandria as iconic cards. Could the cards that they didn't buy the rights back to be another reason they aren't interested in removing the reserve list?
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Utterly irrelevant to the idea that the RL shows a sort of valuable loyalty. The singular adjective of "blindly" does not seem so extreme.
To take from him saying "I can't talk about it" any amount of information is silly.
This would be HUGE for kitchen table players, as these cards would effectively be high quality proxies, and may also be valuable in their own right as collectibles.
I know that MaRo has stated that they consider gold-border as breaking the spirit of the reserve list, but the policy is clearly stated that it only applies to tournament legal cards. And if they were to do a special rarity insert of gold bordered cards, it wouldn't seem like an action that would cause any legal headaches...
How is gold bordered cards any different than just printing some proxies on and then just gluing them to some random cards? If the whole point is to be able to use RL cards casually (not tournament legal), why bother spending money when you can do it for almost free?
you can use them as proxies in tournaments (when permitted)
They also are used in cubes as well. That may be why a gold bordered Gaea's Cradle is $25.
For example, players at my LGS often proxy fetchlands in their modern decks until they rotate out of standard, where the originals are in the standard deck, whereas the glued on ones will be too thick.
The LGS is flexible about it as long as you provide the originals upon request.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
Again, how is that different from a free proxy that you make? If it is useable in official tournaments, then they are no longer proxies and jotc just straight up reprinted the cards. If your LGS allows players to proxy as long as they have the original card, then any proxy would work. Does your LGS set an arbitrary quality threshold requirement for proxies?
Seriously dude? You're a big part of the problem. If you're buying these things, then they have a business. An increase in counterfeiting or proxying, whatever you want to call it, should make even you nervous as it completely undermines the legitimacy of real cards!
Nope, it's just a game. One i enjoy and play to have fun. I'm not going to try and pawn these off on someone as the real mccoy, i play to have fun not to make money. If Wotc won't reprint (even gold bordered) some of the awesomeness that is just waaaayyy too pricey. I'll get proxies and have a blast playing with them.:)
I really don't care if you call them proxies or not. If you are purchasing Chinese fakes that look even slightly realistic, then you ARE part of the problem. Any money you spend with these degenerates goes right back into them trying to improve the quality of their counterfeits and I have a serious problem with that. If all you want to do is play with "proxies", then go to magiccards.info and print off paper copies for your own personal use.
I understand you may not have the desire to own the real thing and that's fine. What I do not condone is one red cent being handed over to people who are having a direct and negative impact on the game. If nobody bought these counterfeits, they'd quickly realize that they had no market to sell to and would move on to other ventures.
But playing the ethics card does not work with these types of people.
(buying them in order to scam people it's different of course, but still, it's wizards fault again)
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
This guy gets it. I would be fine if the backs said FAKE in giant font. I would never try and "cash in" and sell them for a (BIG) profit. Besides, I'd miss them in my vintage cube.
And as for the paper in sleeves thing, it changes the density of the card somewhat having a piece of paper shoved in over a macabre waltz. I can feel it when i shuffle.
It's comments like this that convince me that the RL doesn't exist because of legal consequence. If the only reason for the list is because of the legal consequences, then why would they care in the slightest about the 'spirit' of the agreement, when such is not an enforceable element legally? I take then that there must be some other reason, which is why it is valid to make arguments that the RL damages the game, to combat those other reasons for its existence.
Personally, I think WoTC just wants people to play standard and limited.
Wow.. You are putting the blame on Wizards??? that is like saying a raped woman did it to herself because she dressed provocatively. This is an abhorrent argument to make. I strongly suggest you go back and rethink your position.
Wizards may make the decision to not reprint cards and allow values to climb up but that in NO WAY allows for ILLEGAL activities to take place because you don't agree with their policies. What counterfeiters are doing is illegal, immoral and would be shut down immediately if they could be found. I do not understand how anyone can say with a straight face that this someone else's fault.
... on second thought you have got to be trolling me. Nobody could really have this opinion
I understand the density issue. I've felt it before. The best answer is to put a piece of paper over every card in the cube. That at least makes it consistent all the way through. Not the greatest solution, but it still works. If the cards did say FAKE all the way through I'd be fine as well. What these people are doing though, is attempting to pass off counterfeits as the real deal. I hope every one of them gets shut down and thrown in jail.
/edit There is one thing I just don't understand. You seem to have no problem screwing Wizards over by buying counterfeits. However you have some sort of moral code that won't allow you to screw over an individual by trying to pass the card off as legit? Both acts are infringing on Wizards copyrights, yet one is acceptable and one is not?