I don't think WotC wants people playing Legacy and Vintage. At least not very many people. There is very little money in it for them. And we just saw by the new block format that WotC's interests are firmly set in making the most money possible. Further there needs to be an illusion of value for people to justify spending the money they do. It also helps to hold people to the game. If the base consisted of limited players only, well that would be pretty unstable considering most Limited players could care less about value. By creating value, WotC pulls players into Standard and beyond, but not too much. WotC needs people buying packs. Honestly, if Modern became too popular, it wouldn't surprise me if WotC sabotaged it to make it less popular by way of the banned list.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
You can define the domain of 'whatever' however you like, but as I said earlier, it's wishful thinking. One can wish that collectors know nothing about finance, as if the two are inexplicably incompatible but that's not going to change reality. I can wish that the people who complain about the reserved list would learn more about planning personal finances and careers - to the point where they can afford to buy cards with the fruits of their labor, like the rest of us instead of spending unproductive hours whining in forums. But that's not going to change reality either.
As a note, there's probably very few people in mtg who are 'pure' players even if they like to categorize themselves that way. I would describe myself as a collector/investor/player all-in-one so whatever singular black-and-white motives and actions you are attributing to any particular group all apply to myself and I'm not finding that I agree with your assessments on motives or what people would or would not do.
Now, on the name-calling, who came up with a term really doesn't matter. For example even if you didn't invent racist terminology doesn't matter if you're the one using it. I can see by your sour-grape comments that you require usage of derogatory terms to bolster your arguments and that's understandable. I had hoped to engage in polite discussion of the reserved list but I guess that's too much to hope for. I have no need to toss out catchy populist terms and hope they 'stick', I was really just hoping that the common sense of what I'm saying would make sense to some folks
On financial savvy-ness, this is an area I'm greatly interested in discussing. What particular reason do you have to say that financially savvy people would be buying and selling cards at a regular pace? I disagree entirely with your sentiment. As a general observation across this and various other forums, I find that the individuals who understand the concepts of finance - wealth management, time value of money and so on tend to be the ones who do well for themselves financially as well as in collecting mtg. The average working professional is going to make significantly more on an hourly basis than he could buying and selling cards. Indeed, if there was any free time, it would be better spent, on a financial basis, engaging in additional contract opportunities related to one's career rather than flipping cards for piddly amounts of return, both on an absolute as well as a relative basis. There's a lot of people flipping cards - what car do you see them driving again? Compare and contrast to working professionals. 'Nuff said. Anybody doing the simple math on this would see that the financially-savvy move, in terms of short-term $ potential as well as the additional long-term career impact of additional skills and experience via off-hours contract work would be to just work more and accumulate cards by just buying them. In contrast, one could just not do any of that and instead whine about how cards are expensive, yadda yadda and keep wishing that collectors are financial idiots I guess. Why anybody would think that those who have the large amounts of money in the first place to spend on a hobby are not financially capable is beyond me.
Lastly, I would have to ask that anybody who claims to not care about taking a large % hit in the value of their collection in exchange for more people to play with should just put up or shut up, it's not that hard - unless of course it is It seems that it's still about sour-grapes at the end, the endless railing at the "haves" from the "have-nots" or "not-have-as-much's". As a player/collector/investor - I lend my cards out a good amount as well, there's no legacy scene at my LGS unless I'm the one bringing the decks. Regarding how far lending a collection goes, it depends on your collection - one good thing about being an avid collector is that I have large numbers of those staple cards so whenever I lend decks out, I can play most decks against most other decks. Oh and at the end of the day, I'm not above resorting to just writing card names on basic land cards because from a player perspective, what I care about is being able to play some legacy right? Everybody did this back in the day to play the game, the culture of entitlement these days is truly amazing.
So proxy tournaments happen and are attended, but they can't be official. I personal enjoy playing in proxy tournaments even though I have none and own the majority of Legacy staples (at least enough to make all the decks I want to play) and an excess of certain reserve list cards. I really wouldn't care if my collection became worthless though, because I'm not a collector. I didn't get into this for the money. I just like playing Legacy. Only format I really enjoy. So proxy tournaments are fun, but there is always the issue of them not being allowed to be sanctioned and I think it's a legitimate one. Despite Wizards showing the minimum amount of support to Legacy there is still an appeal to being sanctioned.
Well, this might be a really stupid idea, but it looks like 1/2 to 1/3 the price of many decks, and the large majority of reserved list price in most decks, is the dual lands. Why not just petition Wizards to ban them? It's against they're current banning philosophy, but I'd imagine that to be more flexible than their reserved list policy. It's not like duals are functionally unique, even if the other options are noticeably worse. I'm sure there'd be fallout in terms of the meta, but it seems like you'd cut the buy-in cost, especially in terms of stuff that can't see reprint, and lose little of the uniqueness of the format in terms of game play. I don't know, just seems like there are other windmills to tilt at. I just mention this track as I recently removed the dual lands from my cube due to price concerns.
Horrible for Legacy players who like the format. Horrible for collectors who apparently care about the value of their revised duals (yeah great "collectors" item...). Bad for store owners who have duals. Then there's the people who want to get into Legacy. Guess what, they actually like duals too. So the format they want to get into is no longer even the same format. Even bad for wizards because of the backlash from...well almost everyone. Who does this even benefit? Basically just EDH players? You're throwing around a "fallout in the meta" as if it is negligible. On the current track, Legacy plateaus out and eventually reaches a ceiling. Your proposal just kills it.
On financial savvy-ness, this is an area I'm greatly interested in discussing. What particular reason do you have to say that financially savvy people would be buying and selling cards at a regular pace?
I've lived both worlds. I used to sell cards through consignment back when I was a student, and these days my collection pretty much just sits and accrues value. It's true that my fetches are worth way more now than when I first bought them, but it took a couple of years for them to gain that value. I used to make that much money in a couple of months from consignment profits.
So proxy tournaments happen and are attended, but they can't be official. I personal enjoy playing in proxy tournaments even though I have none and own the majority of Legacy staples (at least enough to make all the decks I want to play) and an excess of certain reserve list cards. I really wouldn't care if my collection became worthless though, because I'm not a collector. I didn't get into this for the money. I just like playing Legacy. Only format I really enjoy. So proxy tournaments are fun, but there is always the issue of them not being allowed to be sanctioned and I think it's a legitimate one. Despite Wizards showing the minimum amount of support to Legacy there is still an appeal to being sanctioned.
Well, this might be a really stupid idea, but it looks like 1/2 to 1/3 the price of many decks, and the large majority of reserved list price in most decks, is the dual lands. Why not just petition Wizards to ban them? It's against they're current banning philosophy, but I'd imagine that to be more flexible than their reserved list policy. It's not like duals are functionally unique, even if the other options are noticeably worse. I'm sure there'd be fallout in terms of the meta, but it seems like you'd cut the buy-in cost, especially in terms of stuff that can't see reprint, and lose little of the uniqueness of the format in terms of game play. I don't know, just seems like there are other windmills to tilt at. I just mention this track as I recently removed the dual lands from my cube due to price concerns.
Horrible for Legacy players who like the format. Horrible for collectors who apparently care about the value of their revised duals (yeah great "collectors" item...). Bad for store owners who have duals. Then there's the people who want to get into Legacy. Guess what, they actually like duals too. So the format they want to get into is no longer even the same format. Even bad for wizards because of the backlash from...well almost everyone. Who does this even benefit? Basically just EDH players? You're throwing around a "fallout in the meta" as if it is negligible. On the current track, Legacy plateaus out and eventually reaches a ceiling. Your proposal just kills it.
I was really concerned with the value of revised duals. I'm sure they'd drop but long term collectors and EDH would keep them from being worthless. Besides which the point was to try and help legacy without touching the reserved list (which appears to be a non-starter).
That being said if removing the duals would kill legacy then I suppose that's that. I'm really surprised that ya seem to think that removing the duals would wind up killing that many archtypes. I'd think the common loss across most archtypes would keep most things the same and help a few non-affected decks a bit + aggressive strategies there are. But then I'm not a legacy player. Shrug. Thankfully, not my problem.
Thanks for the calm response, appreciate it. I see that you have had experience selling cards through consignment, that's great insofar as it relates to mtg because it seems like it provides a good time to value ratio. How often did you have to make a trip to the store to update stock and prices though? What I'm getting at is, sure, I understand you made money doing this. What about in comparison to anything else you could have done with your time or money?
It is symptomatic of the limited financial thinking that is becoming more prevalent in the mtg community in that people think flipping cards is a good route to making money. I would say that the financially savvy would not consider flipping mtg, in general, as an option at all. Let's take a look at some numbers that are achievable as a student and as a full-time working professional. Are these on the high end? Sure, how about just the average? In all likelihood, flipping mtg doesn't even beat out the average numerically, not factoring in insurance, 401k matches, etc. and that's aiming low so simple analysis ranks it as an inferior option. Instead of the countless hours spent researching the ups and downs of cards, perusing lists and negotiating deals, one could be working towards a career with the aforementioned numbers, not necessarily those exact titles. Might it take years to get there? Sure. Would you be missing out on ALL THAT PROFIT from mtg you could be making in the meantime? You're not missing much. You'll easily make up for it in a couple of years with a decent paycheck. Am I advising that people skip out on playing mtg at all? Not at all, everybody's got to have a hobby. Just be cognizant of that fact that if time spent on the game is hobby time and even if money is being made you're making money flipping cards, you're not making as much money as you could be doing something else.
On financial savvy-ness, this is an area I'm greatly interested in discussing. What particular reason do you have to say that financially savvy people would be buying and selling cards at a regular pace?
I've lived both worlds. I used to sell cards through consignment back when I was a student, and these days my collection pretty much just sits and accrues value. It's true that my fetches are worth way more now than when I first bought them, but it took a couple of years for them to gain that value. I used to make that much money in a couple of months from consignment profits.
Not at all, everybody's got to have a hobby. Just be cognizant of that fact that if time spent on the game is hobby time and even if money is being made you're making money flipping cards, you're not making as much money as you could be doing something else.
I don't think that many people are flipping cards in place of a job (successfully). But, as a collector and speculator myself, I know many people who do it on the side. Most of them play the long game; it's too unreliable to try to do it in the standard environment, like day-trading. In fact, I know a fellow who has a six-figure income and no idea of how to play Magic but has a nice fat stack of dual lands and P9 in his safe. Because they increase in value by 10% annually and have for 20 years straight with no sign of slowing down. There's really not a lot of investments you can say that about. Just in my circle of friends I probably know half a dozen people who each have at least $1000 in cards and product waiting for a good time to sell. I know that I do.
That being said, I really don't believe that breaking the reserve list and reprinting everything would wreck us. They recently reprinted the heck out of Sol Ring and it literally didn't even touch the values of my alphas and betas.
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The Collection:
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
Good point, Savage Dream Lord, that's why I said 'flipping cards' was not not a great financial option. Buying and holding them, on the other hand, requires no time investment outside of the initial purchase and the results thus far have been as you stated.
Breaking the reserve list may not wreck the values of alphas and betas much (they're still going to be affected though) but what about those of us who collect from then on? I opine that Unlimited/Revised would be drastically effected, a reprint of Underground Sea? In modern black borders? Who wants the ugly white ones after that?
if they somehow manage to get the reserved list out they could always try i don't know, maybe green borders just to keep some collectionable price of the old ones.
but overall i agree that i would gladly see my collection become 10% of what its worth right now in order to see more people playing legacy and vintage.
But I tell you the same people crying about the reserved list now would cry about getting only pink bordered reprints of the duals because in reality it is not all about playing with these cards, it is also envy of others who own dual lands and they won't stop until they feel like their new shiny reprints invalidate the old original cards.
Whoa. That's some serious projection right there (hope that doesn't qualify as flaming).
We just want to play with the dang cards without spending thousands of dollars to do so. Print them up in paisley or pink or whatever. Who cares.
That is naive as to how human psychology works.
Wannabe standard players complain about standard prices.
Wannabe modern players complain about modern prices.
Wannabe legacy players complain about the reserved list.
People of all walks of life, of all skill levels, complain about something. What the hell does that have to do with your characterization?
IT has nothing to do with being naive or not, it has to do with bad logic, pure and simple.
It makes me gag that some people think they're entitled to earn money aka the fruits of other people's labor for buying into a card game early that they enjoyed playing. Like, you've contributed nothing to society. You've done nothing to increase the nation's GDP (within the context of stockpiling old rares). What the heck do you deserve money for? It's an investment. Some investments don't pay off. Time for wizards to make this the case here, so that players can actually play (what a concept!)
What's especially nauseating is the guy who pretends financial responsibility is spending $800 on a playset of dual lands, and then risk actually playing with them.
Functional reprint of duals to soften the entry cost into legacy/vintage w/o diminishing the value of duals... shocks aren't comparable, need a land that has no drawbacks.
Why not make a Legendary cycle for them? Basically the exact same thing as the current dual lands w/ the Legendary supertype tacked on... people will still desire duals for legacy, but this will help soften the entry cost a little bit.
If you are a collector, you are looking to complete a collection. That is what collectors do. Thus fluctuations in value of cards you already own do not affect your finances in the slightest, unless you plan to sell the cards at some point. In which case you are no longer a collector but merely someone who holds onto cards for a long time with the idea of selling them at some point - this is the definition of a baggage holder.
]Another Wizards fanboy wants to glorify everything they do. Why can't you see that the game has gotten nothing but worse since the 1940's? At least in the 1800's we had spells that actually did something. I remember in 1492 when I first opened a pack of Alpha under the dim light of my oil lantern, I was at least inspired to travel to a new undiscovered land.!
Why lands at all? why not legendary artifacts, 0 mana tap to add a green or a red to your mana pool?
You have just created dual color moxes, being legendary doesn't do much when they would be banned in every format except vintage where they would be restricted.
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Observation: Does anybody else find it interesting that WotC has changed both the FNM format to allow ANY format to be played (not just Standard/Draft) and also announced a change to a paper-based Vintage Masters draft for several rounds at Worlds this year in just the month of October? Just speculation - but why would they change format allowances for an environment where they want to push Standard (FNM) and also showcase Vintage Masters at the Pro Tour/Worlds (which is just a marketing promotion for them from their own admission)? Also - do we know if the Reserved List has a statute of limitations (it was put into effect in March of 1996 - meaning the twenty year anniversary of it being put into effect is just a year and a half away)?
You know, when it all comes down to it, Magic and everything else in the world that isn't an absolute necessity to survival, is entitlement.
You don't need a TV or stereo to survive. You don't need a $30,000 car to get to work. A used compact will get you there just as well. There are lots of things in this world that we don't need but want because they make life a little better.
But they're not requirements.
I'd love to be able to play Vintage where I am in a non proxy tournament. But I can't afford 10 grand for a deck so I don't. It's something I have learned to live without. I'd also love to win the lottery but that's not going to happen either.
The only thing that matters in this entire discussion is what's best for WotC. Maybe they themselves don't even know what's best. Maybe they're just guessing. Regardless, it's their business. So they're going to do what they feel is best to do. Our wants and desires, whether it be lower prices so that more people can play or stable and even rising prices, so that card collections don't devalue, are immaterial. They only become material if and when the fortunes of WotC change because of whatever stance they took.
So far, in spite of the insane card prices (I myself can't believe Underground Seas are $350) history is on their side. Attendance is strong in all formats across the board. SCG has made a major impact on the game to the point where it alone could keep it going indefinitely. It simply has too much invested to let thins get out of hand.
If the day comes when the majority of the player base can no longer play Legacy, trust me, SCG will adjust the prices. They are not going to tank their own business model.
But as long as there are still people out there who are willing to spend current card prices to play the top decks, don't expect things to change.
And as long as WotC continues to rake in the bucks from new product (they really don't care about a format that they make very little money from) don't expect the RL to disappear.
That is the reality of the siutation whether we like it or not.
Why is it such a big deal that WotC has promised to never reprint certain cards? Some cards are definitely too powerful to ever be reprinted, such as the power nine, the original ten dual lands, and certain other cards, such as the cycle of Gaea's cradle, Serra's sanctum, and Tolarian academy. Then, there are cards that either reference anteing or require physical dexterity, which I also believe should never be reprinted, either.
There are some cards on the reserved list that I do wish to see reprinted, such as cadaverous bloom, infernal tribute, or Gwendlyn di Corci, but, surely, WotC could print cards that were remarkably similar to them, with only the most minor of differences (such as a higher mana cost or an additional cost to activate their abilities)? And I believe that the shocklands are almost as good as the original dual lands for most intents and purposes. Perhaps there could be new versions of the three legendary lands that I mentioned above with the drawback of either entering the battlefield tapped or requiring 1 mana to be paid to activate their abilities?
I have been wondering for some time now: how did sol ring avoid being placed on the reserved list? I certainly am not complaining about that, since its recent reprints allowed me to have a copy of it in each of my EDH decks, but it is one of the best mana-producing artifacts in the entire game, surpassed only by the original moxen and black lotus, so its exclusion from the list is very unusual, to me.
Why is it such a big deal that WotC has promised to never reprint certain cards? Some cards are definitely too powerful to ever be reprinted, such as the power nine, the original ten dual lands, and certain other cards, such as the cycle of Gaea's cradle, Serra's sanctum, and Tolarian academy.
And yet, cards that are as powerful or even more powerful have been reprinted with no problem. Sol Ring is certainly more powerful than the original dual lands and is in some ways better than the Moxen; that card's been reprinted a lot of times. Demonic Tutor got a reprint. You can't say that those other cards are too powerful to be reprinted when other crazy powerful cards have been reprinted with no problem!
You seem to be confusing the idea of a Standard reprint with the idea of any reprint period. Of course something like Black Lotus is too powerful for Standard. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't get any reprint. Tons of cards that would screw up Standard horribly have gotten reprints in various ways, e.g. Modern Masters, From The Vaults, etc. The idea that a card is too powerful to reprint at all is utterly nonsensical.
There are some cards on the reserved list that I do wish to see reprinted, such as cadaverous bloom, infernal tribute, or Gwendlyn di Corci, but, surely, WotC could print cards that were remarkably similar to them, with only the most minor of differences (such as a higher mana cost or an additional cost to activate their abilities)? And I believe that the shocklands are almost as good as the original dual lands for most intents and purposes. Perhaps there could be new versions of the three legendary lands that I mentioned above with the drawback of either entering the battlefield tapped or requiring 1 mana to be paid to activate their abilities?
The shocklands are not almost as good as the original dual lands. They're the ones that come closest, but the fact you have to choose between taking 2 damage or waiting a turn to use them is huge. Of course, it's also what makes them fair...
I have been wondering for some time now: how did sol ring avoid being placed on the reserved list? I certainly am not complaining about that, since its recent reprints allowed me to have a copy of it in each of my EDH decks, but it is one of the best mana-producing artifacts in the entire game, surpassed only by the original moxen and black lotus, so its exclusion from the list is very unusual, to me.
The Reserved List is only rares. Sol Ring was an uncommon. At some point there were some uncommons on the list, but they removed them. Which of course makes the whole "we made a promise! We can't change it!" all the more of a joke, because they're still printing some of the cards that were taken off the list. Did you know that Clone was, at one point, on the Reserved List? Wizards of the Coast seems to have no problem breaking their promise in regards to that...
I have been wondering for some time now: how did sol ring avoid being placed on the reserved list? I certainly am not complaining about that, since its recent reprints allowed me to have a copy of it in each of my EDH decks, but it is one of the best mana-producing artifacts in the entire game, surpassed only by the original moxen and black lotus, so its exclusion from the list is very unusual, to me.
The reserved list isn't about power, it's about collectibility. It was instituted after Chronicles reprinted a ton of cards, reducing their apparent collectible value (although most collectors today probably consider the set that the card came from as important if not more so than the card's name). The reserve list is made of rares (U1 cards) that hadn't already been reprinted at the time. Sol Ring was an uncommon.
It's not just about Rares, I recall MaRo saying that they chose like 60%(?), or some number, of Rares they didn't think they'd ever [need/want to] reprint, for Lore purposes, and put those on the List.
I believe the way he described it was, that they had a certain % of Cards they could choose to "save", if they thought it had potential to be reprinted elsewhere Lore-wise.
(I just wish Rishadan Port, Gaea's Cradle, and Hazezon Tamar weren't on that list, or had gotten a Modern Border Judge Promo before the last loophole was closed... :S)
Lastly, I would have to ask that anybody who claims to not care about taking a large % hit in the value of their collection in exchange for more people to play with should just put up or shut up, it's not that hard - unless of course it is
I dunno, I feel like you're attempting to project a sense of hypocrisy that requires a hypothetical situation which at present, due to the reserve list, is impossible to have, and a purely blanket **assumption** about the outcome.
You can define the domain of 'whatever' however you like, but as I said earlier, it's wishful thinking. One can wish that collectors know nothing about finance, as if the two are inexplicably incompatible but that's not going to change reality. I can wish that the people who complain about the reserved list would learn more about planning personal finances and careers..
And I wish, likewise, that people who merely pooh-pooh it as a matter of the person complaining, and their finances, actual re-read what was being argued, as from what I gathered at least it is a bit more complicated than that.
All I have to say is why can't I get a reprint/"functional reprint" of Krovikan Horror? Really guys, its not stupid expensive... not really OP or anything of the sort. Why?
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"Failing to Find" Since March 2010.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Standard:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
All I have to say is why can't I get a reprint/"functional reprint" of Krovikan Horror? Really guys, its not stupid expensive... not really OP or anything of the sort. Why?
Because it's a rare from Alliances that didn't see a reprinting before the creation of the reserved list. That's basically the reason for all cards on the list (replacing "Alliances" with the appropriate set). It's not like people actually want to play with Wood Elemental.
In Krovikan Horror's case, there definitely will never be a (near-)functional reprint in a Standard set, because it cares about graveyard order.
Previously, there was a loophole in the reserved list that allowed a card to be reprinted as a promo or other "special" card, but that loophole no longer exists. Why was that loophole closed? What was wrong with it?
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GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
As a note, there's probably very few people in mtg who are 'pure' players even if they like to categorize themselves that way. I would describe myself as a collector/investor/player all-in-one so whatever singular black-and-white motives and actions you are attributing to any particular group all apply to myself and I'm not finding that I agree with your assessments on motives or what people would or would not do.
Now, on the name-calling, who came up with a term really doesn't matter. For example even if you didn't invent racist terminology doesn't matter if you're the one using it. I can see by your sour-grape comments that you require usage of derogatory terms to bolster your arguments and that's understandable. I had hoped to engage in polite discussion of the reserved list but I guess that's too much to hope for. I have no need to toss out catchy populist terms and hope they 'stick', I was really just hoping that the common sense of what I'm saying would make sense to some folks
On financial savvy-ness, this is an area I'm greatly interested in discussing. What particular reason do you have to say that financially savvy people would be buying and selling cards at a regular pace? I disagree entirely with your sentiment. As a general observation across this and various other forums, I find that the individuals who understand the concepts of finance - wealth management, time value of money and so on tend to be the ones who do well for themselves financially as well as in collecting mtg. The average working professional is going to make significantly more on an hourly basis than he could buying and selling cards. Indeed, if there was any free time, it would be better spent, on a financial basis, engaging in additional contract opportunities related to one's career rather than flipping cards for piddly amounts of return, both on an absolute as well as a relative basis. There's a lot of people flipping cards - what car do you see them driving again? Compare and contrast to working professionals. 'Nuff said. Anybody doing the simple math on this would see that the financially-savvy move, in terms of short-term $ potential as well as the additional long-term career impact of additional skills and experience via off-hours contract work would be to just work more and accumulate cards by just buying them. In contrast, one could just not do any of that and instead whine about how cards are expensive, yadda yadda and keep wishing that collectors are financial idiots I guess. Why anybody would think that those who have the large amounts of money in the first place to spend on a hobby are not financially capable is beyond me.
Lastly, I would have to ask that anybody who claims to not care about taking a large % hit in the value of their collection in exchange for more people to play with should just put up or shut up, it's not that hard - unless of course it is It seems that it's still about sour-grapes at the end, the endless railing at the "haves" from the "have-nots" or "not-have-as-much's". As a player/collector/investor - I lend my cards out a good amount as well, there's no legacy scene at my LGS unless I'm the one bringing the decks. Regarding how far lending a collection goes, it depends on your collection - one good thing about being an avid collector is that I have large numbers of those staple cards so whenever I lend decks out, I can play most decks against most other decks. Oh and at the end of the day, I'm not above resorting to just writing card names on basic land cards because from a player perspective, what I care about is being able to play some legacy right? Everybody did this back in the day to play the game, the culture of entitlement these days is truly amazing.
I've lived both worlds. I used to sell cards through consignment back when I was a student, and these days my collection pretty much just sits and accrues value. It's true that my fetches are worth way more now than when I first bought them, but it took a couple of years for them to gain that value. I used to make that much money in a couple of months from consignment profits.
I was really concerned with the value of revised duals. I'm sure they'd drop but long term collectors and EDH would keep them from being worthless. Besides which the point was to try and help legacy without touching the reserved list (which appears to be a non-starter).
That being said if removing the duals would kill legacy then I suppose that's that. I'm really surprised that ya seem to think that removing the duals would wind up killing that many archtypes. I'd think the common loss across most archtypes would keep most things the same and help a few non-affected decks a bit + aggressive strategies there are. But then I'm not a legacy player. Shrug. Thankfully, not my problem.
It is symptomatic of the limited financial thinking that is becoming more prevalent in the mtg community in that people think flipping cards is a good route to making money. I would say that the financially savvy would not consider flipping mtg, in general, as an option at all. Let's take a look at some numbers that are achievable as a student and as a full-time working professional. Are these on the high end? Sure, how about just the average? In all likelihood, flipping mtg doesn't even beat out the average numerically, not factoring in insurance, 401k matches, etc. and that's aiming low so simple analysis ranks it as an inferior option. Instead of the countless hours spent researching the ups and downs of cards, perusing lists and negotiating deals, one could be working towards a career with the aforementioned numbers, not necessarily those exact titles. Might it take years to get there? Sure. Would you be missing out on ALL THAT PROFIT from mtg you could be making in the meantime? You're not missing much. You'll easily make up for it in a couple of years with a decent paycheck. Am I advising that people skip out on playing mtg at all? Not at all, everybody's got to have a hobby. Just be cognizant of that fact that if time spent on the game is hobby time and even if money is being made you're making money flipping cards, you're not making as much money as you could be doing something else.
I don't think that many people are flipping cards in place of a job (successfully). But, as a collector and speculator myself, I know many people who do it on the side. Most of them play the long game; it's too unreliable to try to do it in the standard environment, like day-trading. In fact, I know a fellow who has a six-figure income and no idea of how to play Magic but has a nice fat stack of dual lands and P9 in his safe. Because they increase in value by 10% annually and have for 20 years straight with no sign of slowing down. There's really not a lot of investments you can say that about. Just in my circle of friends I probably know half a dozen people who each have at least $1000 in cards and product waiting for a good time to sell. I know that I do.
That being said, I really don't believe that breaking the reserve list and reprinting everything would wreck us. They recently reprinted the heck out of Sol Ring and it literally didn't even touch the values of my alphas and betas.
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
Breaking the reserve list may not wreck the values of alphas and betas much (they're still going to be affected though) but what about those of us who collect from then on? I opine that Unlimited/Revised would be drastically effected, a reprint of Underground Sea? In modern black borders? Who wants the ugly white ones after that?
but overall i agree that i would gladly see my collection become 10% of what its worth right now in order to see more people playing legacy and vintage.
People of all walks of life, of all skill levels, complain about something. What the hell does that have to do with your characterization?
IT has nothing to do with being naive or not, it has to do with bad logic, pure and simple.
What's especially nauseating is the guy who pretends financial responsibility is spending $800 on a playset of dual lands, and then risk actually playing with them.
Why not make a Legendary cycle for them? Basically the exact same thing as the current dual lands w/ the Legendary supertype tacked on... people will still desire duals for legacy, but this will help soften the entry cost a little bit.
EDH Decks
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Phelddagrif
Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Bladewing the Risen
The extra "a" means quality.
You have just created dual color moxes, being legendary doesn't do much when they would be banned in every format except vintage where they would be restricted.
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Any new cool Daretti cards printed in the latest set? Tell me about it!
Rules Advisor
You don't need a TV or stereo to survive. You don't need a $30,000 car to get to work. A used compact will get you there just as well. There are lots of things in this world that we don't need but want because they make life a little better.
But they're not requirements.
I'd love to be able to play Vintage where I am in a non proxy tournament. But I can't afford 10 grand for a deck so I don't. It's something I have learned to live without. I'd also love to win the lottery but that's not going to happen either.
The only thing that matters in this entire discussion is what's best for WotC. Maybe they themselves don't even know what's best. Maybe they're just guessing. Regardless, it's their business. So they're going to do what they feel is best to do. Our wants and desires, whether it be lower prices so that more people can play or stable and even rising prices, so that card collections don't devalue, are immaterial. They only become material if and when the fortunes of WotC change because of whatever stance they took.
So far, in spite of the insane card prices (I myself can't believe Underground Seas are $350) history is on their side. Attendance is strong in all formats across the board. SCG has made a major impact on the game to the point where it alone could keep it going indefinitely. It simply has too much invested to let thins get out of hand.
If the day comes when the majority of the player base can no longer play Legacy, trust me, SCG will adjust the prices. They are not going to tank their own business model.
But as long as there are still people out there who are willing to spend current card prices to play the top decks, don't expect things to change.
And as long as WotC continues to rake in the bucks from new product (they really don't care about a format that they make very little money from) don't expect the RL to disappear.
That is the reality of the siutation whether we like it or not.
There are some cards on the reserved list that I do wish to see reprinted, such as cadaverous bloom, infernal tribute, or Gwendlyn di Corci, but, surely, WotC could print cards that were remarkably similar to them, with only the most minor of differences (such as a higher mana cost or an additional cost to activate their abilities)? And I believe that the shocklands are almost as good as the original dual lands for most intents and purposes. Perhaps there could be new versions of the three legendary lands that I mentioned above with the drawback of either entering the battlefield tapped or requiring 1 mana to be paid to activate their abilities?
I have been wondering for some time now: how did sol ring avoid being placed on the reserved list? I certainly am not complaining about that, since its recent reprints allowed me to have a copy of it in each of my EDH decks, but it is one of the best mana-producing artifacts in the entire game, surpassed only by the original moxen and black lotus, so its exclusion from the list is very unusual, to me.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
You seem to be confusing the idea of a Standard reprint with the idea of any reprint period. Of course something like Black Lotus is too powerful for Standard. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't get any reprint. Tons of cards that would screw up Standard horribly have gotten reprints in various ways, e.g. Modern Masters, From The Vaults, etc. The idea that a card is too powerful to reprint at all is utterly nonsensical.
The shocklands are not almost as good as the original dual lands. They're the ones that come closest, but the fact you have to choose between taking 2 damage or waiting a turn to use them is huge. Of course, it's also what makes them fair...
The Reserved List is only rares. Sol Ring was an uncommon. At some point there were some uncommons on the list, but they removed them. Which of course makes the whole "we made a promise! We can't change it!" all the more of a joke, because they're still printing some of the cards that were taken off the list. Did you know that Clone was, at one point, on the Reserved List? Wizards of the Coast seems to have no problem breaking their promise in regards to that...
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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I believe the way he described it was, that they had a certain % of Cards they could choose to "save", if they thought it had potential to be reprinted elsewhere Lore-wise.
(I just wish Rishadan Port, Gaea's Cradle, and Hazezon Tamar weren't on that list, or had gotten a Modern Border Judge Promo before the last loophole was closed... :S)
I dunno, I feel like you're attempting to project a sense of hypocrisy that requires a hypothetical situation which at present, due to the reserve list, is impossible to have, and a purely blanket **assumption** about the outcome.
And I wish, likewise, that people who merely pooh-pooh it as a matter of the person complaining, and their finances, actual re-read what was being argued, as from what I gathered at least it is a bit more complicated than that.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
In Krovikan Horror's case, there definitely will never be a (near-)functional reprint in a Standard set, because it cares about graveyard order.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt