I honestly don't know what you guys are arguing about. I think one faction is just pessimistic about the format and need to sit down with a good pal and forge some fond memories of the format. The other side of things likes Modern and just wants it to be free. I represent the 1% who want to ban fetchlands, and that is all.
In June, the whole world will know. I suspect the banlist to change at least a little. I personally would love to see the format nuked (fetches), but cards taken off (Nacatl, Jace, Ponder) . Then, the format could be re-evaluated with a completely different power level assessed to every single deck in the format. (official last post about my crazy vision for the format).
Why in June? The Next banlist announcement happens when DGM comes out...
In short the rest of the post says, Wotc bases their decisions on data, the player base base their wants on passion and personal game play, other wise a small sample size. Feel free to read on though.
Honestly I am tired of saying the same thing over and over and people just complaining about this about Modern or that about Modern.
Fact #1, Wotc has much, much more data on all the formats and Modern in particular and they should be making the decisions, not the player base.
Fact #2, Wotc is trying to make a format that is profitable. In other words Wotc is trying to aim the format at the largest player base willing to spend money on the format.
Fact #3, Old Extended and small extended were failures in the eyes of Wotc, why would they shape Modern towards it in any way?
Now those who heard the early announcement and assumed the format was going to be Legacy lite or some cheaper format that is dominated by oppressive decks, well you just were not listening when the announcement came out. You had a vision of what you wanted for the format.
In the end the game it self and Modern are Wotcs sandbox. We are all invited to play in that sandbox but Wotc controls the guidelines of what happens with in that sandbox. The game is not the first priority, profit is. Profit for Wotc, Hasbro, and the LGS come first. Then the game itself.
Yes Magic has changed over the years. Standard today is much different then Standard of 5-7 years ago. But Wotc/Hasbro is making money hand over fist the past 4 years. Record sales the last 4 years. We as the player base has 2 choices, 1) suck it up and play in their sandbox, or 2) stop playing the game/format and send a message. If attendance drops to a point where Wotc sees they have to make changes, they will. If Wotc stops seeing the profits they will be forced to change their ways or shut the doors.
Now, as to CarzyMikes post, his vision (and it is his vision, Wotc has never said anything near what CrazyMike posted) makes the format close to Old Extended, which was a failure in the eyes of Wotc and dropped form the supported line up of formats. Why would anyone want to suggest Wotc push another format that was already a failure? Do you think the new player base would take to this new format as it has to Modern?
Wotc is in a place I dont envy. If they keep going the way they have, they will lose those who want the over powered format many envision. If they go the way of the powerful format, they lose percentage of the player base they have now. The player base has put Wotc in a no win situation. But I am pretty sure they knew they were not going to be able to please everyone. I for one am pleased with Modern, and hope they continue in the manner they have been.
By the way, the article Tom LaPile wrote was the one everyone seems to be taking as the word of Wotc. I have read it and find no where in it where it says Modern is a replacement for anything. It does mention a non-rotating format that is not hindered by the reserve list, but in no way does he say it will be a replacement for anything. As a matter of fact he says multiple times in the article the Modern is an experiment.
and BTW, we're also referencing what a member of WotC said at PAX this weekend, "We hope to make Modern as fun and exciting as Legacy soon!"
So, those of us who had that expectation are kinda justified for having it now...
Please, quit saying we want Legacy-lite, we don't.
We just want the powerlevel of Modern to be higher than that of Standard... and considering it's the past 10 years of magic, we have the right to expect to be able to play some of the more powerful cards from the past 10 years of MTG history, for example: Bitterblossom - It's not that powerful. If you unbanned Bitterblossom and Ancestral Visions RIGHT NOW, literally, it would be fine...
If there was one thing I would do to try and "fix" modern, it would be to re-evaluate the entire banned list every year or two using modo.
Take like 6 to 10 weeks after the spring set comes out (for instance after DGM this year) and have a format on modo that is "Modern Classic", where every modern card that can be modern legal is (so no vaults or commander printings, etc) and let the masses play it out.
Support it with 2 mans, 8 mans, dailies and PEs. And see where the meta goes and what really needs to be banned. You can ban during the test if needed (every PE and Daily won by blazing shoal? ban it mid test, obviously warping).
It would allow them to find out if cards really need to be banned, without releasing them into the "wild" (PTQs, GPs, PTs, store level events where people could just hate everything).
You could see if BBE does keep Jace down, like she did in standard. You could see if Abrupt decay works to keep Bitterblossom, SFM and Jitte in place. You could see if there is a combo deck that would be way to degenerate with chrome mox, full suite of rituals and cantrips. You could see if Dredge is actually too good, even though most of the best GY hate ever printed for that deck are modern legal. You could see if you really need to ban the artifact lands/would affinity even play the white or black ones?
I think it would be an interesting experiment at least. And one that could produce a lot more trackable information that what WotC does behind closed doors when pondering the banned list changes.
If there was one thing I would do to try and "fix" modern, it would be to re-evaluate the entire banned list every year or two using modo.
Take like 6 to 10 weeks after the spring set comes out (for instance after DGM this year) and have a format on modo that is "Modern Classic", where every modern card that can be modern legal is (so no vaults or commander printings, etc) and let the masses play it out.
Support it with 2 mans, 8 mans, dailies and PEs. And see where the meta goes and what really needs to be banned. You can ban during the test if needed (every PE and Daily won by blazing shoal? ban it mid test, obviously warping).
It would allow them to find out if cards really need to be banned, without releasing them into the "wild" (PTQs, GPs, PTs, store level events where people could just hate everything).
You could see if BBE does keep Jace down, like she did in standard. You could see if Abrupt decay works to keep Bitterblossom, SFM and Jitte in place. You could see if there is a combo deck that would be way to degenerate with chrome mox, full suite of rituals and cantrips. You could see if Dredge is actually too good, even though most of the best GY hate ever printed for that deck are modern legal. You could see if you really need to ban the artifact lands/would affinity even play the white or black ones?
I think it would be an interesting experiment at least. And one that could produce a lot more trackable information that what WotC does behind closed doors when pondering the banned list changes.
This doesn't really work. It's very very difficult to tell if one deck is a problem if there are worse problems in the format. It wouldn't be very much fun, and you wouldn't get great Magic minds to play. And in such a short amount of time, it would be hard for a dominant archetype to try to be countered. Rather than let the format develop, they would be banning anything that was good for a few days.
Honestly I think something along reprinting wasteland and making it modern legal would due more then any ban changes to diversity the format. There is no reason not to run 3-4 color decks in the format. Players should be rewarded for not having a greedy mana base.
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Current Legacy Decks
0USpiral Tide0U
UWU/W 'Miracle Top' Control UW
012 Post 0
Random Opponent: Playing against 12 Post Feels like trying to win in Yugioh with no super secret rares.
Thinking fetch lands would go a long way in fixing format imbalance doesn't help your case either, like at all.
This is what we're talking about. You gave no reason and no context. So i'll do it for you.
What will banning fetch's do in Modern? More shocks and Sunpetal Grove lands. 3+ color decks will be less consistent. Shadow of Doubt for Modern becomes unplayable and Stifle in legacy becomes a lot worse and most definitely suffers a price drop.
So I honestly ask you and any of you who have brought this up, since I find it absolutely ridiculous when there are MUCH and I mean MUCH more important and pressing ban candidates than fetch lands; WHY fetch lands?
As I've stated before with Preordain/Ponder lowering consistency does not make a format better. It just makes it more random, frustrating & clunky.
The modern era of Magic has be characterised by decks that don't have any problems with mana, to the point where they can just run any colour they feel like with no consequences. Even in legacy, which has it's fair share of wastelands and other things to punish you for your "greedy" manabase, three colour decks are the rule, not the exception. And when you translate the exact same manabase to Modern, except now you don't have the hate, you get a format where there is no downside to running more colours.
(Maybe this is a reason to add wasteland et al. to Modern, but I don't see it doing enough, because it still doesn't in Legacy)
So you get a format where the colour of spells you play doesn't matter. Every two colour deck gets better when you add a third colour. There's no reason not to play green in your red/black deck for tarmogoyf and deathrite shaman and abrupt decay and oops you made a Jund deck and all you did was take all the good cards in three colours and jam them together. This is a problem if you want a format to be full of decks instead of colours.
(On a side note, this is why decks get boring names these days, because they aren't built of synergy around a particular set of components, but around the best cards in each colour)
And fetchlands are absolutely the cause of it all. A single fetchland represents any of your colours, and it comes into play untapped. The last time Standard had a manabase even close to that good we had people playing Cloudthresher and Cryptic Command in the same deck as Cruel Ultimatum, and everyone complained that it was too easy then. Why do we allow that kind of deck in any of our formats?
I don't think that the fetchlands represent a threat to the life of the format, and I'm sure they will never be banned ever and people will keep playing Modern and Legacy and loving them. But I think they are too powerful and allow for too much consistency for Magic, even though we've adjusted to their existence and moved on (and it's pretty much useless to speculate what Magic would be like if they hadn't been printed)
It's not really about imbalance.
(Last sidenote, the one-two punch of fetchland+shockland is why aggro is so good in Modern. Player's can be expected to start with at least three less life than they should. As a longtime aggro player, it's so much easier to do 17 damage than 20. If we banned the fetchlands, aggro would be a smaller contender in Modern and control would see a rising popularity)
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I'll hold myself to this. I'll get fancy dishes and everything.
If there was one thing I would do to try and "fix" modern, it would be to re-evaluate the entire banned list every year or two using modo.
Take like 6 to 10 weeks after the spring set comes out (for instance after DGM this year) and have a format on modo that is "Modern Classic", where every modern card that can be modern legal is (so no vaults or commander printings, etc) and let the masses play it out.
Support it with 2 mans, 8 mans, dailies and PEs. And see where the meta goes and what really needs to be banned. You can ban during the test if needed (every PE and Daily won by blazing shoal? ban it mid test, obviously warping).
It would allow them to find out if cards really need to be banned, without releasing them into the "wild" (PTQs, GPs, PTs, store level events where people could just hate everything).
You could see if BBE does keep Jace down, like she did in standard. You could see if Abrupt decay works to keep Bitterblossom, SFM and Jitte in place. You could see if there is a combo deck that would be way to degenerate with chrome mox, full suite of rituals and cantrips. You could see if Dredge is actually too good, even though most of the best GY hate ever printed for that deck are modern legal. You could see if you really need to ban the artifact lands/would affinity even play the white or black ones?
I think it would be an interesting experiment at least. And one that could produce a lot more trackable information that what WotC does behind closed doors when pondering the banned list changes.
One thing, in most Fae based decks I believe AD won't touch the blossom because most will run Scion, giving it shroud.
Certainly seems like a reasonable experiment though.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Right, and all the three to four color goodstuff decks drown out the participation of poor mono-red Goblins where I'm told I can win because my opponent bolts his face with his lands. Fun.
Modern is pretty much already an 'elitist format'. You pretty much need to own a majority of the format to enjoy it. If you don't own Tarmogoyf, you can't even enjoy your Kird Apes without people making fun of you. I have a deck in Legacy that is cold to 1/3 of the format but still enjoy the prospects of taking the deck to a competitive tournament.
So I, in my outsiders opinion, say nerf Tarmogoyf and nerf the XXx goodstuff deck's manabase, because that's not what I want to be doing in Modern.
*I don't mean anything bad by 'elitist', but with the lack of budget decks, the format heavily favors the elite, multi-format magic player.
**And I suppose that is me admiring my qualms with the format are budget issues...the fetchlands are well within my budget. I will very likely own the necessary Scalding Tarns unless they jump to $50 which would just kill Modern, but I don't want to play Tarmogoyf and I don't want to play three color goodstuff. ~that's just me~
Why in June? The Next banlist announcement happens when DGM comes out...
Your link is broken...
and BTW, we're also referencing what a member of WotC said at PAX this weekend, "We hope to make Modern as fun and exciting as Legacy soon!"
So, those of us who had that expectation are kinda justified for having it now...
Please, quit saying we want Legacy-lite, we don't.
We just want the powerlevel of Modern to be higher than that of Standard... and considering it's the past 10 years of magic, we have the right to expect to be able to play some of the more powerful cards from the past 10 years of MTG history, for example: Bitterblossom - It's not that powerful. If you unbanned Bitterblossom and Ancestral Visions RIGHT NOW, literally, it would be fine...
OK, last paragraph has me convinced that they're not going to nuke the manabases.
It's a shame. I think they'd sell more lands, sell more packs of Gatecrash, if they ban the fetches. Modern shouldn't be 'buy these lands to join the club' but rather 'play the right lands for your deck'. Fetchlands just blow away most other lands by a wide margin and there is plenty of lost design space due to their presence in magic and the addiction of players to cracking fetch.
:-( so many levels of awesome cannot be because three color decks are so cool.
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Decks:
Legacy: RWBG Goblins RRR Burn WBU Affinity UBR Sac-Land Tendrils! BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
There honestly needs to be a form of efficient punishment for players who run a lot of non-basic lands. Price of Progress has been mentioned many times by people, and that might be a start, but the argument is that it would make red decks too good (but isn't that the price... of progress? or in this case 3+ non-basics). Back to Basics could be another option, and could boost blue based control decks that currently don't show up at all in Modern.
The crux of the problem is there is 2 sides to this. If Wotc pushes for the side LBS and the rest are asking for, how much of the player base would actually play? We have already seen Old Extended nuked and thought of a s a failure by Wotc and yet there is a group of people wanting more or less the same power level, same type of format. I have come to the point I kind of want Wotc to witch gears and push the format so we can all watch it die and then listen to some different crying.
Quote from Plaguefather »
and BTW, we're also referencing what a member of WotC said at PAX this weekend, "We hope to make Modern as fun and exciting as Legacy soon!"
So, those of us who had that expectation are kinda justified for having it now...
Please, quit saying we want Legacy-lite, we don't.
Argue with yourself often? First you mention a format as fun as Legacy, yet you say you dont want Legacy lite. What dont you want? the lite part? It seems some just want Legacy part 2.
Still not one person crying that Modern needs change has explained whats going to happen to those who like the format as it is now? Just screw them, they dont like something you do? I think many asking for change underestimate the numbers that would walk away from the format if its changed into their vision of the format.
You had a deck that took basically infinite turns and therefore stopped the opponent from playing, and therefore, stopping them from having fun... And you were surprised when something got banned from it?
And this is why eggs will have something banned.
Players need to realise, that both players sitting at the table need to enjoy/play the game.
Funnily enough, this is also the reason why noobs hate LD/draw-go/grindy attrition decks. Boo hoo, he blew up my lands, now I can't play spells! Boo hoo, he's countering/killing everything I play!
Some decks are built to kill every single thing you play. Some decks are built not to give a damn what you play. Modern's card pool is wide enough that you'll find decks on both ends of this spectrum. If you want to play something less extreme, you're free to. Just don't act like you have the right to tell other people that they shouldn't.
I don't want a Legacy lite. I already have Legacy, and it's the best format you can play besides possibly Cube, which unfortunately isn't conducive to constructed tournaments.
I do want Modern to be palatable though. The best way to do that is to start incorporating Legacy elements (WotC pretty much admitted as much). I'm talking allied fetchlands, decent counter magic, Wasteland/Stifle, and some other cards.
It can never replace Legacy though. Even with the suggest improvements, it wouldn't have sweet cards like Brainstorm, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Swords to Plowshares, Ancient Tomb, Mother of Runes, Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Crop Rotation, Enlightened Tutor, and hundreds of others, including most importantly, the original duals. It doesn't need to be Legacy, but right now it feels like crippled four-year Extended, which really sucks considering all the potential a non-rotating format can have.
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Due to real-life obligations, I am taking a long break from Magic which may include missing the local Legacy GP. Apologies for not being able to keep my threads updated.
Land destruction should be viable. Being able to play a whole deck designed around blowing up lands probably shouldn't.
Draw-go can be fine, countering EVERY spell, not so much.
Grindy attrition decks? People have a problem with attrition decks? First i've heard of it.
Modern should be the format for moderation, except there seems to be a group of players who don't like moderation.
So all those decks are OK but something that generates infinite turns isn't?
I mean, really, what's the difference between having your spell countered/killed every turn and a Time Sieve lock?
Hell, what's the difference between a Time Sieve lock and a Twin combo? Other than "one kills you faster"? If you have no outs just scoop and stop wasting time. If I have a Sieve lock, victory is guaranteed - if you want to make me play out the entire thing, that's a punishment that YOU are choosing to put YOURSELF through.
I don't want a Legacy lite. I already have Legacy, and it's the best format you can play besides possibly Cube, which unfortunately isn't conducive to constructed tournaments.
And then the very first post is about introducing Brainstorm, Force and Waste into Modern. Guess what are the three most played cards in Legacy?
As much as I hate to admit it, Bocephus makes a few points that are difficult to argue with.
WotC, as mercenary as this might sound, doesn't care about what Modern looks or plays like. They care about making money. To that end, they will mold the format to what they think the majority of the players want. Whether or not their vision is correct to achieve their goals is something that remains to be seen.
I already gave you my group breakdown of who I think is most likely to gravitate towards Modern. If I'm right, that means WotC is doing the right thing.
Look, like it or not, current day Magic is NOT the Magic of 1994 or even 2004. They're trying to attract the Yugioh crowd and they feel the way to do that is by making the game more about creatures and less about oppressive strategies that don't allow the other player to play his game.
Personally, I hate it. But as little money as I give WotC each year (I never buy packs or boxes anymore) I am not their target market and they just don't care about me. Why should they? But if WotC can get the new Standard players into Modern and get them to buy MM and MM2 and however many come out after that, they WotC has done what it needs to do...make Hasbro happy by making money.
If WotC had to remove every card type from the game except creatures to accomplish that goal, they'd do it in a heartbeat. This is what a lot of people don't understand. The game is second. The money is first.
Look, let's face facts. The old Magic that I loved (P9, Necro, Academy) did NOT sell like the cards of today sell. Planeswalkers, love 'em or hate 'em, are HUGE with the current crop of players. Powerful creatures with amazing EtB effects or abilities are HUGE.
Boros Reckoner is one of the most, if not THE most expensive card in Standard today.
Tarmagoyf is the most expensive card in Modern. Dark Confidant I think is the third most expensive card in Modern.
This should be telling you something. Players like creatures. They don't like sitting around watching you play with your eggs or fateseal you with your Jace so all you can do is drop a land each turn. They don't like you grapeshotting them on turn 3 for 20 because you've got all this ridiculous card draw and ramp that you can just keep dumping spell after spell.
The players today, many who have come over from Yugioh, want to bash your face in with the biggest baddest creature they can get their hands on.
We had more fun back then simply drawing 7 cards at the end of our turn or tapping a land for 12 mana.
It's a different Magic today. I don't like it. but it's not for me to say whether it's better or worse. All I can say objectively is it's different. And WotC seems to think that this "different" Magic is what the majority of the players want.
Maybe they're right. You can't argue with the sales figures over the last few years, though I think DotP has something to do with them. But the fact that this game is MORE popular now than when it first came out (talking first 3 years) says a lot. Usually a game loses popularity over time.
Look at Trivial Pursuit and how HUGE that was.
Who even plays it now?
D&D is almost dead.
But Magic is more popular than ever.
You may not like what WotC is doing with Modern (I sure as hell don't) but if they're making money from it, that's all they and Hasbro care about.
At what point did I say countering every spell or killing every creature was fine?
Twin decks don't bother me, they don't break the turn 4 rule, their combo's are creature based and generally easier to hate mb, they have removal and can play like a normal deck, and when they combo off you know immediately that you are dead. No spending 10+ minutes sitting there going "are you going to whiff or am I dead? F6"
Even with infinite turns, if your wincon is Tezz then you have to draw your cards until you hit Tezz, there is a statistical possibility that you could only have Tezz in the bottom couple of cards in your library and not have enough turns left before you draw out to ultimate tezz and win.
So scooping doesn't do you any favours unless you believe you can win games 2 and 3 without too much effort.
Then what's the problem with engine combo? Unlike meanie LD/draw go, I give you a free hand to resolve ALL of your spells. So much fun!
May I remind you that your initial post was about "both players sitting at the table need to enjoy/play the game"? So let's say you have a field full of creatures and get Wrathed, and only your Kitchen Finks survives. Do you think you'll have fun for the rest of the match? Oh, sure, not all of your creatures died - you still have a 2/1 Finks!
You can scoop halfway through if Eggs is comboing off. Here's a very simple inequality:
X is the number of Eggs on the battlefield
Y is the number of Sunrises/Rewards in your opponent's hand.
Z is the number of cards in your opponent's library.
If XY > Z, the Eggs player is guaranteed to draw his entire library.
If I show you a hand of 4 Sunrises, have 8 eggs on the battlefield and 30 cards left in my library, will you scoop?
Lastly, you do not need to hit Tezz to win. Every Thopter you make past the fifth stays on the battlefield, and the number of Thopters you can make is tied to the amount of mana you can produce. You can make 6, sac 5, Time Walk, next turn make 7, swing with 1, Time Walk, next turn make 8, swing with 3, Time Walk...
See, you're not even trying to defend your "both players need to enjoy the game" stand any more. You're talking about gameplay choices now.
Your argument is that non-interactive games are bad. I'm telling you that LD and draw-go can lead to very uninteractive games. I'd like to add that Burn and Auras also lead to uninteractive games. Do you hate them with as much passion as you reserve for engine combo?
So, whatever, you have a 2/1 Finks and your opponent is in total control. He has a hand full of kill spells, counterspells and Snapcaster Mages, ensuring that nothing you play will survive for the rest of the game. Still feel like it's fun to be in that position?
Eggs is guaranteed to kill you if XY > Z. It's as simple mathematics as "I have 2 Soul Wardens in play and 3 creatures in hand, I can gain 6 life."
i love modern and disagree with the banned list but god do i hate how people say they hate modern because all the cards they want to play are banned...seriously? look at the banned list, sure there are cards i would love to play from it, but the other 56 cards of my deck arent banned. geez man, stop whining, play the format and at least try it instead of bashing it. wizards is doing what they think is best, us players are acting with our hearts not our heads, they know better then us what is healthy for the format and are not nearly as biased as anyone of us regular players are.
i love modern and disagree with the banned list but god do i hate how people say they hate modern because all the cards they want to play are banned...seriously? look at the banned list, sure there are cards i would love to play from it, but the other 56 cards of my deck arent banned. geez man, stop whining, play the format and at least try it instead of bashing it. wizards is doing what they think is best, us players are acting with our hearts not our heads, they know better then us what is healthy for the format and are not nearly as biased as anyone of us regular players are.
Except people don't think with their heads. And in fact, WotC is tailoring Modern to what they believe will be the majority of people who WILL think with their hearts and love PLAYING the game. Otherwise, why play it?
Playing a CCG is not like going out and buying a refrigerator where you're simply trying to be practical and get something that will efficiently keep your food from going bad. I don't love my refrigerator. I'm grateful it keeps my food cold and would probably be lost without it. But I don't love it.
What I DO love is playing Magic. And if the Magic I'm playing is one that I don't love, for whatever reason, I'm not going to play it. Games are meant to be fun, not practical. We don't play games with our heads.
So WotC is trying to appeal to as many hearts as it can and hope that it's making the right choices in doing so. To tell somebody to stop thinking with their heart when it comes to a game (something that you play because you supposedly love it) makes as much sense as telling somebody not to worry about that gun pointed at your head with somebody's finger ready to squeeze the trigger.
We play games because we love them. Not because we rationally think through them.
When that day comes, I stop playing games.
So yes, I want to play with my Jace and my Stoneforge and my SDT. And if I can't do it in Modern, I'll do it in a format that will allow me to.
Deathrite Shaman is annoying ban that sucker. He is pretty close to being as good as ooze, maybe better. Probably better. Although he isn't as effective as ooze against goyf. While we are at it can we ban Landboys wall of text and broken writing structure. Every post I see, jeeze man.
I really don't think modern is all that messed up. Nothing stands out as too good. A lot of stuff that is really good but nothing over the top. Breakfast is annoying but, well combo players need love too.
Some decks are built to kill every single thing you play. Some decks are built not to give a damn what you play. Modern's card pool is wide enough that you'll find decks on both ends of this spectrum. If you want to play something less extreme, you're free to. Just don't act like you have the right to tell other people that they shouldn't.
Just like you dont have the right to pooh-pooh on everyone who is enjoying the format as it is. What gives you the right to take away a format that is being enjoyed by thousand, to make it more in your vision? Are you sure more people will play it? Can you guarantee it to Wotc? If not, leave Wotc to do as they wish. If you like what they are doing, play the format, if not, find a format you enjoy and play it. Just dont force me to play your magic, I am not forcing you to play my magic.
Deathrite Shaman is annoying ban that sucker. He is pretty close to being as good as ooze, maybe better. Probably better. Although he isn't as effective as ooze against goyf. While we are at it can we ban Landboys wall of text and broken writing structure. Every post I see, jeeze man.
I really don't think modern is all that messed up. Nothing stands out as too good. A lot of stuff that is really good but nothing over the top. Breakfast is annoying but, well combo players need love too.
<snip>
I have to agree with Bocephus after all is said and done. If he and the majority of people are enjoying Modern as it is, they should be allowed to.
If WotC is wrong in their vision, we will soon find out. It is possible that with more bannings, some players on the fence MAY get fed up and leave and attendance will drop.
There is no question that WotC has to be careful how they handle this no matter which direction they go. They're never going to please everybody and they have to go in the direction that is going to please the majority if Modern is going to be profitable.
I don't like Modern as it is now. If I'm in the minority, it won't matter. If I'm not, then WotC and Modern itself have a problem.
We're eventually going to find out which way the wind blows.
Just like you dont have the right to pooh-pooh on everyone who is enjoying the format as it is.
I don't tell other people that they should be ashamed of themselves if they play X archetype. On the other hand I get it all the time because I play Eggs.
Are you sure more people will play it? Can you guarantee it to Wotc? If not, leave Wotc to do as they wish.
Name even one person who can guarantee better profits for WotC. I mean 100%, risk-free, positive returns.
Oh, that's right, nobody can. Not even the best damn businessman in the world. Not even Wizards themselves. So by your logic, no-one is fit to suggest anything about Modern.
If you like what they are doing, play the format, if not, find a format you enjoy and play it. Just dont force me to play your magic, I am not forcing you to play my magic.
I play Modern in accordance with its current ban list. Is "my" Magic any different from "yours"?
Problems to whom? It seems there are those who feel the format needs changing, and those who feel the format is functioning well.
Why in June? The Next banlist announcement happens when DGM comes out...
Your link is broken...
and BTW, we're also referencing what a member of WotC said at PAX this weekend, "We hope to make Modern as fun and exciting as Legacy soon!"
So, those of us who had that expectation are kinda justified for having it now...
Please, quit saying we want Legacy-lite, we don't.
We just want the powerlevel of Modern to be higher than that of Standard... and considering it's the past 10 years of magic, we have the right to expect to be able to play some of the more powerful cards from the past 10 years of MTG history, for example: Bitterblossom - It's not that powerful. If you unbanned Bitterblossom and Ancestral Visions RIGHT NOW, literally, it would be fine...
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
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Take like 6 to 10 weeks after the spring set comes out (for instance after DGM this year) and have a format on modo that is "Modern Classic", where every modern card that can be modern legal is (so no vaults or commander printings, etc) and let the masses play it out.
Support it with 2 mans, 8 mans, dailies and PEs. And see where the meta goes and what really needs to be banned. You can ban during the test if needed (every PE and Daily won by blazing shoal? ban it mid test, obviously warping).
It would allow them to find out if cards really need to be banned, without releasing them into the "wild" (PTQs, GPs, PTs, store level events where people could just hate everything).
You could see if BBE does keep Jace down, like she did in standard. You could see if Abrupt decay works to keep Bitterblossom, SFM and Jitte in place. You could see if there is a combo deck that would be way to degenerate with chrome mox, full suite of rituals and cantrips. You could see if Dredge is actually too good, even though most of the best GY hate ever printed for that deck are modern legal. You could see if you really need to ban the artifact lands/would affinity even play the white or black ones?
I think it would be an interesting experiment at least. And one that could produce a lot more trackable information that what WotC does behind closed doors when pondering the banned list changes.
This doesn't really work. It's very very difficult to tell if one deck is a problem if there are worse problems in the format. It wouldn't be very much fun, and you wouldn't get great Magic minds to play. And in such a short amount of time, it would be hard for a dominant archetype to try to be countered. Rather than let the format develop, they would be banning anything that was good for a few days.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
The modern era of Magic has be characterised by decks that don't have any problems with mana, to the point where they can just run any colour they feel like with no consequences. Even in legacy, which has it's fair share of wastelands and other things to punish you for your "greedy" manabase, three colour decks are the rule, not the exception. And when you translate the exact same manabase to Modern, except now you don't have the hate, you get a format where there is no downside to running more colours.
(Maybe this is a reason to add wasteland et al. to Modern, but I don't see it doing enough, because it still doesn't in Legacy)
So you get a format where the colour of spells you play doesn't matter. Every two colour deck gets better when you add a third colour. There's no reason not to play green in your red/black deck for tarmogoyf and deathrite shaman and abrupt decay and oops you made a Jund deck and all you did was take all the good cards in three colours and jam them together. This is a problem if you want a format to be full of decks instead of colours.
(On a side note, this is why decks get boring names these days, because they aren't built of synergy around a particular set of components, but around the best cards in each colour)
And fetchlands are absolutely the cause of it all. A single fetchland represents any of your colours, and it comes into play untapped. The last time Standard had a manabase even close to that good we had people playing Cloudthresher and Cryptic Command in the same deck as Cruel Ultimatum, and everyone complained that it was too easy then. Why do we allow that kind of deck in any of our formats?
I don't think that the fetchlands represent a threat to the life of the format, and I'm sure they will never be banned ever and people will keep playing Modern and Legacy and loving them. But I think they are too powerful and allow for too much consistency for Magic, even though we've adjusted to their existence and moved on (and it's pretty much useless to speculate what Magic would be like if they hadn't been printed)
It's not really about imbalance.
(Last sidenote, the one-two punch of fetchland+shockland is why aggro is so good in Modern. Player's can be expected to start with at least three less life than they should. As a longtime aggro player, it's so much easier to do 17 damage than 20. If we banned the fetchlands, aggro would be a smaller contender in Modern and control would see a rising popularity)
One thing, in most Fae based decks I believe AD won't touch the blossom because most will run Scion, giving it shroud.
Certainly seems like a reasonable experiment though.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Modern is pretty much already an 'elitist format'. You pretty much need to own a majority of the format to enjoy it. If you don't own Tarmogoyf, you can't even enjoy your Kird Apes without people making fun of you. I have a deck in Legacy that is cold to 1/3 of the format but still enjoy the prospects of taking the deck to a competitive tournament.
So I, in my outsiders opinion, say nerf Tarmogoyf and nerf the XXx goodstuff deck's manabase, because that's not what I want to be doing in Modern.
*I don't mean anything bad by 'elitist', but with the lack of budget decks, the format heavily favors the elite, multi-format magic player.
**And I suppose that is me admiring my qualms with the format are budget issues...the fetchlands are well within my budget. I will very likely own the necessary Scalding Tarns unless they jump to $50 which would just kill Modern, but I don't want to play Tarmogoyf and I don't want to play three color goodstuff. ~that's just me~
Legacy:
RWBG Goblins
RRR Burn
WBU Affinity
UBR Sac-Land Tendrils!
BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
Pauper:
RGoblins
URCloudpost
other decks
Goblins.
fixed link: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144
It's a shame. I think they'd sell more lands, sell more packs of Gatecrash, if they ban the fetches. Modern shouldn't be 'buy these lands to join the club' but rather 'play the right lands for your deck'. Fetchlands just blow away most other lands by a wide margin and there is plenty of lost design space due to their presence in magic and the addiction of players to cracking fetch.
:-( so many levels of awesome cannot be because three color decks are so cool.
Legacy:
RWBG Goblins
RRR Burn
WBU Affinity
UBR Sac-Land Tendrils!
BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
Pauper:
RGoblins
URCloudpost
other decks
Goblins.
Why don't people play them? Oh, that's right. It screws up their own mana base as well.
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Big Johnny.
Argue with yourself often? First you mention a format as fun as Legacy, yet you say you dont want Legacy lite. What dont you want? the lite part? It seems some just want Legacy part 2.
Still not one person crying that Modern needs change has explained whats going to happen to those who like the format as it is now? Just screw them, they dont like something you do? I think many asking for change underestimate the numbers that would walk away from the format if its changed into their vision of the format.
Funnily enough, this is also the reason why noobs hate LD/draw-go/grindy attrition decks. Boo hoo, he blew up my lands, now I can't play spells! Boo hoo, he's countering/killing everything I play!
Some decks are built to kill every single thing you play. Some decks are built not to give a damn what you play. Modern's card pool is wide enough that you'll find decks on both ends of this spectrum. If you want to play something less extreme, you're free to. Just don't act like you have the right to tell other people that they shouldn't.
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Big Johnny.
I do want Modern to be palatable though. The best way to do that is to start incorporating Legacy elements (WotC pretty much admitted as much). I'm talking allied fetchlands, decent counter magic, Wasteland/Stifle, and some other cards.
It can never replace Legacy though. Even with the suggest improvements, it wouldn't have sweet cards like Brainstorm, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Swords to Plowshares, Ancient Tomb, Mother of Runes, Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Crop Rotation, Enlightened Tutor, and hundreds of others, including most importantly, the original duals. It doesn't need to be Legacy, but right now it feels like crippled four-year Extended, which really sucks considering all the potential a non-rotating format can have.
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingSo all those decks are OK but something that generates infinite turns isn't?
I mean, really, what's the difference between having your spell countered/killed every turn and a Time Sieve lock?
Hell, what's the difference between a Time Sieve lock and a Twin combo? Other than "one kills you faster"? If you have no outs just scoop and stop wasting time. If I have a Sieve lock, victory is guaranteed - if you want to make me play out the entire thing, that's a punishment that YOU are choosing to put YOURSELF through.
And then the very first post is about introducing Brainstorm, Force and Waste into Modern. Guess what are the three most played cards in Legacy?
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Big Johnny.
WotC, as mercenary as this might sound, doesn't care about what Modern looks or plays like. They care about making money. To that end, they will mold the format to what they think the majority of the players want. Whether or not their vision is correct to achieve their goals is something that remains to be seen.
I already gave you my group breakdown of who I think is most likely to gravitate towards Modern. If I'm right, that means WotC is doing the right thing.
Look, like it or not, current day Magic is NOT the Magic of 1994 or even 2004. They're trying to attract the Yugioh crowd and they feel the way to do that is by making the game more about creatures and less about oppressive strategies that don't allow the other player to play his game.
Personally, I hate it. But as little money as I give WotC each year (I never buy packs or boxes anymore) I am not their target market and they just don't care about me. Why should they? But if WotC can get the new Standard players into Modern and get them to buy MM and MM2 and however many come out after that, they WotC has done what it needs to do...make Hasbro happy by making money.
If WotC had to remove every card type from the game except creatures to accomplish that goal, they'd do it in a heartbeat. This is what a lot of people don't understand. The game is second. The money is first.
Look, let's face facts. The old Magic that I loved (P9, Necro, Academy) did NOT sell like the cards of today sell. Planeswalkers, love 'em or hate 'em, are HUGE with the current crop of players. Powerful creatures with amazing EtB effects or abilities are HUGE.
Boros Reckoner is one of the most, if not THE most expensive card in Standard today.
Tarmagoyf is the most expensive card in Modern. Dark Confidant I think is the third most expensive card in Modern.
This should be telling you something. Players like creatures. They don't like sitting around watching you play with your eggs or fateseal you with your Jace so all you can do is drop a land each turn. They don't like you grapeshotting them on turn 3 for 20 because you've got all this ridiculous card draw and ramp that you can just keep dumping spell after spell.
The players today, many who have come over from Yugioh, want to bash your face in with the biggest baddest creature they can get their hands on.
Why do you think Emrakul is so big in Modern?
Years ago, things were different. Nobody played Colossus of Sardia or Force of Nature because those creatures sucked.
We had more fun back then simply drawing 7 cards at the end of our turn or tapping a land for 12 mana.
It's a different Magic today. I don't like it. but it's not for me to say whether it's better or worse. All I can say objectively is it's different. And WotC seems to think that this "different" Magic is what the majority of the players want.
Maybe they're right. You can't argue with the sales figures over the last few years, though I think DotP has something to do with them. But the fact that this game is MORE popular now than when it first came out (talking first 3 years) says a lot. Usually a game loses popularity over time.
Look at Trivial Pursuit and how HUGE that was.
Who even plays it now?
D&D is almost dead.
But Magic is more popular than ever.
You may not like what WotC is doing with Modern (I sure as hell don't) but if they're making money from it, that's all they and Hasbro care about.
For the rest of us, there's always Legacy.
Then what's the problem with engine combo? Unlike meanie LD/draw go, I give you a free hand to resolve ALL of your spells. So much fun!
May I remind you that your initial post was about "both players sitting at the table need to enjoy/play the game"? So let's say you have a field full of creatures and get Wrathed, and only your Kitchen Finks survives. Do you think you'll have fun for the rest of the match? Oh, sure, not all of your creatures died - you still have a 2/1 Finks!
You can scoop halfway through if Eggs is comboing off. Here's a very simple inequality:
X is the number of Eggs on the battlefield
Y is the number of Sunrises/Rewards in your opponent's hand.
Z is the number of cards in your opponent's library.
If XY > Z, the Eggs player is guaranteed to draw his entire library.
If I show you a hand of 4 Sunrises, have 8 eggs on the battlefield and 30 cards left in my library, will you scoop?
Lastly, you do not need to hit Tezz to win. Every Thopter you make past the fifth stays on the battlefield, and the number of Thopters you can make is tied to the amount of mana you can produce. You can make 6, sac 5, Time Walk, next turn make 7, swing with 1, Time Walk, next turn make 8, swing with 3, Time Walk...
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Big Johnny.
Your argument is that non-interactive games are bad. I'm telling you that LD and draw-go can lead to very uninteractive games. I'd like to add that Burn and Auras also lead to uninteractive games. Do you hate them with as much passion as you reserve for engine combo?
So, whatever, you have a 2/1 Finks and your opponent is in total control. He has a hand full of kill spells, counterspells and Snapcaster Mages, ensuring that nothing you play will survive for the rest of the game. Still feel like it's fun to be in that position?
Eggs is guaranteed to kill you if XY > Z. It's as simple mathematics as "I have 2 Soul Wardens in play and 3 creatures in hand, I can gain 6 life."
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Big Johnny.
Except people don't think with their heads. And in fact, WotC is tailoring Modern to what they believe will be the majority of people who WILL think with their hearts and love PLAYING the game. Otherwise, why play it?
Playing a CCG is not like going out and buying a refrigerator where you're simply trying to be practical and get something that will efficiently keep your food from going bad. I don't love my refrigerator. I'm grateful it keeps my food cold and would probably be lost without it. But I don't love it.
What I DO love is playing Magic. And if the Magic I'm playing is one that I don't love, for whatever reason, I'm not going to play it. Games are meant to be fun, not practical. We don't play games with our heads.
So WotC is trying to appeal to as many hearts as it can and hope that it's making the right choices in doing so. To tell somebody to stop thinking with their heart when it comes to a game (something that you play because you supposedly love it) makes as much sense as telling somebody not to worry about that gun pointed at your head with somebody's finger ready to squeeze the trigger.
We play games because we love them. Not because we rationally think through them.
When that day comes, I stop playing games.
So yes, I want to play with my Jace and my Stoneforge and my SDT. And if I can't do it in Modern, I'll do it in a format that will allow me to.
How hard is that to understand?
I really don't think modern is all that messed up. Nothing stands out as too good. A lot of stuff that is really good but nothing over the top. Breakfast is annoying but, well combo players need love too.
Flame warning —Rax
Just like you dont have the right to pooh-pooh on everyone who is enjoying the format as it is. What gives you the right to take away a format that is being enjoyed by thousand, to make it more in your vision? Are you sure more people will play it? Can you guarantee it to Wotc? If not, leave Wotc to do as they wish. If you like what they are doing, play the format, if not, find a format you enjoy and play it. Just dont force me to play your magic, I am not forcing you to play my magic.
<snip>
I have to agree with Bocephus after all is said and done. If he and the majority of people are enjoying Modern as it is, they should be allowed to.
If WotC is wrong in their vision, we will soon find out. It is possible that with more bannings, some players on the fence MAY get fed up and leave and attendance will drop.
There is no question that WotC has to be careful how they handle this no matter which direction they go. They're never going to please everybody and they have to go in the direction that is going to please the majority if Modern is going to be profitable.
I don't like Modern as it is now. If I'm in the minority, it won't matter. If I'm not, then WotC and Modern itself have a problem.
We're eventually going to find out which way the wind blows.
Flame infraction —Rax
I don't tell other people that they should be ashamed of themselves if they play X archetype. On the other hand I get it all the time because I play Eggs.
Now you're being ridiculous. When have I even shared what I want Modern to be like in this thread?
Name even one person who can guarantee better profits for WotC. I mean 100%, risk-free, positive returns.
Oh, that's right, nobody can. Not even the best damn businessman in the world. Not even Wizards themselves. So by your logic, no-one is fit to suggest anything about Modern.
I play Modern in accordance with its current ban list. Is "my" Magic any different from "yours"?
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Big Johnny.