I'm very surprised so many people here apologize, tolerate, or accept this. It is, simply put, cheating. I guess I can see now why so many knuckleheads engage in it. And I don't think it's all cutesy-pie "oh, I couldn't contain myself. I got so excited." I believe in many cases it is simply a way to gain an edge, especially when their favorite buddies are in their pod and they can be in cahoots with them to stay out of each other's colors.
At the first sight of such behavior, I say, in a stern but polite tone, "No table talk, please." It often re-occurs, and then I simply repeat, "No table talk, please." If someone persists I will say, "Come on!"
Usually works pretty good.
J
How exactly would it be cheating? I can't envision a scenario where you would benefit from people knowing what you have.
How exactly would it be cheating? I can't envision a scenario where you would benefit from people knowing what you have.
Wow, I'm psychic. I knew someone was going to ask this.
Especially when I say why IN MY POST how it's cheating.
Read the rest of this thread and there are other mentions of how you can gain an advantage.
If you know the guy next to you is going Red/White and you are going to be cut off from Red/White, you may be less likely to pick Red/White, am I right? So Aurelia boy just gained an unfair advantage.
While the curiosity is understandable, it's poor etiquette to request or reveal information before the drafting is complete because it could affect the selection process of the card pool. If you want to participate in the best possible draft, a genuine draft where the selection is more 'natural', it's always best to say nothing during the drafting process, then talk to your heart's content once the cards are all picked.
I fully realize that, but it was an exceptional occurrence. I didn't ask him to tell me what he pulled, I simply asked why in the world he'd pass me what he did. It was a limited bomb, as I recall, and he was passing it after his very first pick, so it wasn't like it would be out of his colors or anything. I'd also drafted with the guy enough times before to know that he wasn't some newbie that didn't understand the drafting process. Seeing him skip over a first pick card on the very first pick of the draft surprised me enough that I couldn't help myself. Revealing that he'd picked a foil copy of the same card obviously explains his actions.
Talking during draft is specifically and explicitly prohibited by the rules:
Players may not communicate in any way with, or reveal hidden information to, other individuals during a draft, apart from tournament officials. This applies as soon as the draft pod pairings are posted and lasts until players hand in their decklists.
At FNM, most of the time no one really cares if you chat about unrelated subjects. But please do not talk about the cards you are picking. It's extremely rude to people who want to play by the rules.
If this situation arises, it's reasonable to say "please don't discuss the draft while it is in progress". The judge should back you up on this (if the judge knows the rules).
I'm very surprised so many people here apologize, tolerate, or accept this. It is, simply put, cheating. I guess I can see now why so many knuckleheads engage in it. And I don't think it's all cutesy-pie "oh, I couldn't contain myself. I got so excited." I believe in many cases it is simply a way to gain an edge, especially when their favorite buddies are in their pod and they can be in cahoots with them to stay out of each other's colors.
It's FNM at your local store generally you can script how everyone you know will draft anyway. A silent table isn't a fun table and being the rules nazi generally intimidates the new players which is exactly what FNM is about. I find the spike who roams around the tables checking out everyones pool/deck before the first round and then refuses to play any practice games because his tech is so top secret infinitely more annoying.
Talking during draft is specifically and explicitly prohibited by the rules:
At FNM, most of the time no one really cares if you chat about unrelated subjects. But please do not talk about the cards you are picking. It's extremely rude to people who want to play by the rules.
If this situation arises, it's reasonable to say "please don't discuss the draft while it is in progress". The judge should back you up on this (if the judge knows the rules).
True. At Comp/Pro REL you've got "Cheating — Hidden Information Violation" with the very first example being "A player in a booster draft intentionally reveals a card she drafted to another player during the draft." The penalty is a DQ. (Note: the definition for "Tournament Error — Draft Procedure Violation" specifically says "This does not cover any attempts to view or reveal cards that are hidden")
The JAR document doesn't have very much to say on the subject, though we do have
letting players chat during a booster draft is fine – up to the point of giving strategy advice
...
- General Unwanted Behaviours -
...
− Asking for, or providing, strategy advice during a tournament match or booster draft
In all of these cases, educate the player on better behaviour – for example, alternate shuffling techniques or the importance of allowing players to make their own decisions. Once a player has been asked to correct their behaviour, treat any further instance of the same problem as you would any repeat infraction.
Wow, I'm psychic. I knew someone was going to ask this.
Especially when I say why IN MY POST how it's cheating.
Read the rest of this thread and there are other mentions of how you can gain an advantage.
If you know the guy next to you is going Red/White and you are going to be cut off from Red/White, you may be less likely to pick Red/White, am I right? So Aurelia boy just gained an unfair advantage.
Please, this is basic stuff.
J
But if everyone knows (the guys shouts his pull obviously)...everyone benefits from the knowledge not just one individual.
...At FNM, most of the time no one really cares if you chat about unrelated subjects. But please do not talk about the cards you are picking. It's extremely rude to people who want to play by the rules...
It's FNM at your local store generally you can script how everyone you know will draft anyway. A silent table isn't a fun table and being the rules nazi generally intimidates the new players which is exactly what FNM is about. I find the spike who roams around the tables checking out everyones pool/deck before the first round and then refuses to play any practice games because his tech is so top secret infinitely more annoying.
Hmm. I am going to continue this potentially fruitless exercise on the assumption that there may be a moment for learning here.
I believe it is unlikely that you can script how "everyone you know" will draft. But what about the "new players" who don't know everyone? They certainly cannot take advantage of that, can they? That's another obvious thing going against them.
In a higher REL event, as many of us here do know, it IS a "silent table". But at FNM I don't believe I have ever seen such a thing. But discussing the card selection and card picks goes against the spirit and the rules of the game. I hope we don't have to dispute too much more about whether it affects the game progress, in an artificial way. It should be self-evident that we draft with the packs hidden from our neighbors FOR A REASON. If everyone drafted their packs face up on the table it would be some sort of different game. If a couple bad eggs communicate to one or more others at the table what they are drafting, it creates a condition where players can work in cooperation with each other. And players who did not hear the table talk, or did not understand it, are at a disadvantage. This is unfair and it's cheating. I say it's fine to chit chat at an FNM draft. I do it every time. But it is STRAIGHT UP cheating to say, "Oh, I'm going Green." or ANYTHING else about the draft.
OMG I'm going to have a heart seizure. THINK, my friends, THINK.
Hmm. I am going to continue this potentially fruitless exercise on the assumption that there may be a moment for learning here.
I believe it is unlikely that you can script how "everyone you know" will draft. But what about the "new players" who don't know everyone? They certainly cannot take advantage of that, can they? That's another obvious thing going against them.
In a higher REL event, as many of us here do know, it IS a "silent table". But at FNM I don't believe I have ever seen such a thing. But discussing the card selection and card picks goes against the spirit and the rules of the game. I hope we don't have to dispute too much more about whether it affects the game progress, in an artificial way. It should be self-evident that we draft with the packs hidden from our neighbors FOR A REASON. If everyone drafted their packs face up on the table it would be some sort of different game. If a couple bad eggs communicate to one or more others at the table what they are drafting, it creates a condition where players can work in cooperation with each other. And players who did not hear the table talk, or did not understand it, are at a disadvantage. This is unfair and it's cheating. I say it's fine to chit chat at an FNM draft. I do it every time. But it is STRAIGHT UP cheating to say, "Oh, I'm going Green." or ANYTHING else about the draft.
OMG I'm going to have a heart seizure. THINK, my friends, THINK.
J
I think i'm going to be in a silent majority here, but I agree with you.
Talking about which cards you're picking during the draft corrupts the draft environment. Silence should be enforced.
I've been to a dozen drafts, sure, it gets boring sitting there quietly, but I understand why i must be quiet. If I go on about that Awesome Foil Mythic I just cherry-picked to pay for my draft and any prize I might not win, I would be corrupting the table by sending the signal that I'm in that color, when if I cherry pick an Aurelia's Fury, people think I'm going to be in R/W, when I might just end up drafting Esper or something completely opposite. So everyone ends up taking the red/white stuff and they think "Oh boy, he's screwed now" In actuality, it just ends up helping me cherry-pick my draft and win on the basis of everyone else's fear of me getting super-good pulls.
So please, Silence is golden in Draft. Sure, it's fine to talk about things other than magic, but in my area, it's not really that easy to talk about anything other than magic at the game store... :/
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But if everyone knows (the guys shouts his pull obviously)...everyone benefits from the knowledge not just one individual.
Not true.
Let's say I'm sitting in seat 5 and Reggie Regular is sitting in seat 1. Reggie's friend Sammy Shark is sitting in seat 2. In pack 1, Reggie opens Aurelia, slams it on the table face up, and announces to the entire draft pod that he just opened an Aurelia. Then he passes the cards to Sammy. Also in the pack is Sunhome Guildmage. Sammy has the benefit of knowing that Sunhome Guildmage isn't very much of a signal in this situation. In fact, if Sammy hasn't made his first pick yet, it might also influence that decision. Meanwhile, way down there at seat 5, what benefit do I get from knowing that someone first-picked an Aurelia on the other side of the table? Not much, really. Reggie might not have meant to cheat, but he ended up giving his friend a big advantage, and putting the rest of the drafters at a disadvantage.
If this happened in real life I would call a judge instantly, and probably request a refund of my entrance fee, to be honest.
Let's say I'm sitting in seat 5 and Reggie Regular is sitting in seat 1. Reggie's friend Sammy Shark is sitting in seat 2. In pack 1, Reggie opens Aurelia, slams it on the table face up, and announces to the entire draft pod that he just opened an Aurelia. Then he passes the cards to Sammy. Also in the pack is Sunhome Guildmage. Sammy has the benefit of knowing that Sunhome Guildmage isn't very much of a signal in this situation. In fact, if Sammy hasn't made his first pick yet, it might also influence that decision. Meanwhile, way down there at seat 5, what benefit do I get from knowing that someone first-picked an Aurelia on the other side of the table? Not much, really. Reggie might not have meant to cheat, but he ended up giving his friend a big advantage, and putting the rest of the drafters at a disadvantage.
If this happened in real life I would call a judge instantly, and probably request a refund of my entrance fee, to be honest.
Sammy knows: Shy away from R/W basically
Player 5 knows: Shy away from R/W or possibly take some not many people to the left will be taking it for obvious reasons. (The decision probably comes with what you're passed for that round which will provide a treasure trove of information)
Sounds about the same except for the whole bit about P1P1 windmill face up slam
This happens a lot at my FNM drafts, and usually it's the more experienced players and/or the judges who are doing it. Is it annoying and unprofessional? Yes. My solution is to keep my head down, ignore what's going on and draft as well as I can. Plus, knowing that the judge who was sitting next to me was playing Boros allowed me to quietly hatedraft a Legion Loyalist that came my way.
amoebasinger is right, no question about it. If I were allowed to have everyone know where I am in my drafts, you can be sure I'd say "I'm Orzhov, just for your information, so I wouldn't go Orzhov if I were you". That clearly gives me an advantage. What if everyone does this? Drafting becomes dumb. You're ruining the game this way.
Tell the dude to kindly shut up is my advice, since it's FNM. If he doesn't (and it's a problem in future drafts as well), call the judge. Behavior like that should not be tolerated, no matter the event.
It takes away from the experience of the draft because it gives an unfair advantage to your neighbors and yourself. Your neighbors will stay out of your colors now, and the people across the table from you don't have the benefit of this so you've given yourself an edge. Ideally, imho, this would be cheating.
At best, this is frustrating for those of us who LOVE to draft and some butt can't stay quiet.
And I don't mean we all need to be super quiet and serious the whole time, I just think there's a very important line not to be crossed, and it's somewhere in between "lol this pack is bad imma take the foil plains" and "omg i have 3 boros charms"
Player 5 knows: Shy away from R/W or possibly take some not many people to the left will be taking it for obvious reasons. (The decision probably comes with what you're passed for that round which will provide a treasure trove of information)
So you're saying P5 should stay out of the colors of the player of P1?
That's not how drafts work...
Just a question that sort of fits in this vein...at our first draft, my lady-friend wanted to ask me a couple of questions about what she had drafted just after finishing the actual draft and right before play began, as everyone was assembling their decks. We were quietly having this conversation after stepping away from our respective tables.
Is this frowned upon? She's still a card-slinger in training and just wanted a bit of advice...but I certainly don't want to doom myself or her in the process and get into trouble with my LGS.
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Just a question that sort of fits in this vein...at our first draft, my lady-friend wanted to ask me a couple of questions about what she had drafted just after finishing the actual draft and right before play began, as everyone was assembling their decks. We were quietly having this conversation after stepping away from our respective tables.
Is this frowned upon? She's still a card-slinger in training and just wanted a bit of advice...but I certainly don't want to doom myself or her in the process and get into trouble with my LGS.
No, this is different than talking about picks during the draft. At the FNM level, deckbuilding advice, particularly for new players, is common place.
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Just a question that sort of fits in this vein...at our first draft, my lady-friend wanted to ask me a couple of questions about what she had drafted just after finishing the actual draft and right before play began, as everyone was assembling their decks. We were quietly having this conversation after stepping away from our respective tables.
Is this frowned upon? She's still a card-slinger in training and just wanted a bit of advice...but I certainly don't want to doom myself or her in the process and get into trouble with my LGS.
In an LGS FNM scenario, which is REL, this is fine. You can ask people for advice and talk about your deck.
At a tournament, however, this would be against the rules.
Some people take this crap way too seriously.
It is a draft, have fun with it.
You are not at Worlds or something, you are probably at your LGC.
IF someone wants to give information, so be it.
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In an LGS FNM scenario, which is REL, this is fine. You can ask people for advice and talk about your deck.
At a tournament, however, this would be against the rules.
No, as long as you are not swapping cards it would still not be against the rules in any way at all.
People can ask advice and get advice even while deck building, even in tourney situations.
If it is distracting other people, then you might get someone giving you a nudge or something.
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You should give them lessons about how they are ruining everybody else's fun and that it is against the rules. Hopefully a good slap on the wrist would get them in line.
My favorite players are the ones that admonish all the other drafters because card x was passed all the way to them and this should never have happened. Thanks Mr. Pro. Now kindly piss off.
This happened last week when my wife and I went drafting. This guy couldn't BELIEVE all the stuff he was getting passed, and drafted every (.50) rare he could. My wife was seated right next to him in the draft, and said he kept saying things like "How did THIS get all the way to me. Don't people know what they're doing?"
I ended up playing him in the final round, and it turned out that his "mana base was a bit shaky," in his own words. ie...he was playing every rare he drafted, and relying on keyrunes to power a couple of them, since he was running all 5 colors.
Predictably, it was a blowout. He got a stack of bulk rares, and I ended up getting prize packs. (Also drafted a Watery Grave...so who cares about the rest!)
Oh, and the rare I passed in the first pack that he ended up picking up? I passed it for a Smite...which served me rather well, thank you.
On the other hand, there's a girl who drafts with us, and anytime she opens a pack, or even when you're playing her, anytime you make a play (other than dropping a basic/gate,) she ALWAYS, without fail says "THAT'S a card!"
Yes...it's a card. Congratulations on succeeding at basic recognition.
So you're saying P5 should stay out of the colors of the player of P1?
That's not how drafts work...
No, i'm saying that the information given is essentially equal to the information given to P2 and that information spreads to the entire table and the person who shouts it out or the player next to that person does not gain an unfair advantage over the rest of the table. It's not like this is some theory either, I've done a fair number of drafts involving this scenario. And we haven't even covered the windmill face up slam of a P3P1 or P2P1
It's a FNM draft, who cares. So a guy takes a foil Skarrg Goliath over a Skarrg Guildmage, who cares. It would be different if this was Competitive REL and people were actually trying to cheat, but if someone opens a foil mythic and regular mythic at a casual draft, I think it's fun to hear about. I also think it's funny when people go on and on about rares that tabled because they're so terrible (really, you think that Thespian's Stage tabling is giving anyone relevant info?)
To those spikes who yell at people who talk during a casual draft...wow, we would not be friends. Crap like that makes me want to spend my free time doing something else.
No, as long as you are not swapping cards it would still not be against the rules in any way at all.
People can ask advice and get advice even while deck building, even in tourney situations.
If it is distracting other people, then you might get someone giving you a nudge or something.
Hmmm, interesting. I guess I just assumed it was against the rules because it is against the rules in sealed deck at Competitive REL to discuss your pool with anyone before submitting your deck.
Not to mention it would just be a bad idea since you might play the person you are discussing it with, or someone you are playing might overhear you.
How exactly would it be cheating? I can't envision a scenario where you would benefit from people knowing what you have.
Wow, I'm psychic. I knew someone was going to ask this.
Especially when I say why IN MY POST how it's cheating.
Read the rest of this thread and there are other mentions of how you can gain an advantage.
If you know the guy next to you is going Red/White and you are going to be cut off from Red/White, you may be less likely to pick Red/White, am I right? So Aurelia boy just gained an unfair advantage.
Please, this is basic stuff.
J
I fully realize that, but it was an exceptional occurrence. I didn't ask him to tell me what he pulled, I simply asked why in the world he'd pass me what he did. It was a limited bomb, as I recall, and he was passing it after his very first pick, so it wasn't like it would be out of his colors or anything. I'd also drafted with the guy enough times before to know that he wasn't some newbie that didn't understand the drafting process. Seeing him skip over a first pick card on the very first pick of the draft surprised me enough that I couldn't help myself. Revealing that he'd picked a foil copy of the same card obviously explains his actions.
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At FNM, most of the time no one really cares if you chat about unrelated subjects. But please do not talk about the cards you are picking. It's extremely rude to people who want to play by the rules.
If this situation arises, it's reasonable to say "please don't discuss the draft while it is in progress". The judge should back you up on this (if the judge knows the rules).
It's FNM at your local store generally you can script how everyone you know will draft anyway. A silent table isn't a fun table and being the rules nazi generally intimidates the new players which is exactly what FNM is about. I find the spike who roams around the tables checking out everyones pool/deck before the first round and then refuses to play any practice games because his tech is so top secret infinitely more annoying.
True. At Comp/Pro REL you've got "Cheating — Hidden Information Violation" with the very first example being "A player in a booster draft intentionally reveals a card she drafted to another player during the draft." The penalty is a DQ. (Note: the definition for "Tournament Error — Draft Procedure Violation" specifically says "This does not cover any attempts to view or reveal cards that are hidden")
The JAR document doesn't have very much to say on the subject, though we do have
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But if everyone knows (the guys shouts his pull obviously)...everyone benefits from the knowledge not just one individual.
Hmm. I am going to continue this potentially fruitless exercise on the assumption that there may be a moment for learning here.
I believe it is unlikely that you can script how "everyone you know" will draft. But what about the "new players" who don't know everyone? They certainly cannot take advantage of that, can they? That's another obvious thing going against them.
In a higher REL event, as many of us here do know, it IS a "silent table". But at FNM I don't believe I have ever seen such a thing. But discussing the card selection and card picks goes against the spirit and the rules of the game. I hope we don't have to dispute too much more about whether it affects the game progress, in an artificial way. It should be self-evident that we draft with the packs hidden from our neighbors FOR A REASON. If everyone drafted their packs face up on the table it would be some sort of different game. If a couple bad eggs communicate to one or more others at the table what they are drafting, it creates a condition where players can work in cooperation with each other. And players who did not hear the table talk, or did not understand it, are at a disadvantage. This is unfair and it's cheating. I say it's fine to chit chat at an FNM draft. I do it every time. But it is STRAIGHT UP cheating to say, "Oh, I'm going Green." or ANYTHING else about the draft.
OMG I'm going to have a heart seizure. THINK, my friends, THINK.
J
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I think i'm going to be in a silent majority here, but I agree with you.
Talking about which cards you're picking during the draft corrupts the draft environment. Silence should be enforced.
I've been to a dozen drafts, sure, it gets boring sitting there quietly, but I understand why i must be quiet. If I go on about that Awesome Foil Mythic I just cherry-picked to pay for my draft and any prize I might not win, I would be corrupting the table by sending the signal that I'm in that color, when if I cherry pick an Aurelia's Fury, people think I'm going to be in R/W, when I might just end up drafting Esper or something completely opposite. So everyone ends up taking the red/white stuff and they think "Oh boy, he's screwed now" In actuality, it just ends up helping me cherry-pick my draft and win on the basis of everyone else's fear of me getting super-good pulls.
So please, Silence is golden in Draft. Sure, it's fine to talk about things other than magic, but in my area, it's not really that easy to talk about anything other than magic at the game store... :/
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Let's say I'm sitting in seat 5 and Reggie Regular is sitting in seat 1. Reggie's friend Sammy Shark is sitting in seat 2. In pack 1, Reggie opens Aurelia, slams it on the table face up, and announces to the entire draft pod that he just opened an Aurelia. Then he passes the cards to Sammy. Also in the pack is Sunhome Guildmage. Sammy has the benefit of knowing that Sunhome Guildmage isn't very much of a signal in this situation. In fact, if Sammy hasn't made his first pick yet, it might also influence that decision. Meanwhile, way down there at seat 5, what benefit do I get from knowing that someone first-picked an Aurelia on the other side of the table? Not much, really. Reggie might not have meant to cheat, but he ended up giving his friend a big advantage, and putting the rest of the drafters at a disadvantage.
If this happened in real life I would call a judge instantly, and probably request a refund of my entrance fee, to be honest.
Sammy knows: Shy away from R/W basically
Player 5 knows: Shy away from R/W or possibly take some not many people to the left will be taking it for obvious reasons. (The decision probably comes with what you're passed for that round which will provide a treasure trove of information)
Sounds about the same except for the whole bit about P1P1 windmill face up slam
Tell the dude to kindly shut up is my advice, since it's FNM. If he doesn't (and it's a problem in future drafts as well), call the judge. Behavior like that should not be tolerated, no matter the event.
It takes away from the experience of the draft because it gives an unfair advantage to your neighbors and yourself. Your neighbors will stay out of your colors now, and the people across the table from you don't have the benefit of this so you've given yourself an edge. Ideally, imho, this would be cheating.
At best, this is frustrating for those of us who LOVE to draft and some butt can't stay quiet.
And I don't mean we all need to be super quiet and serious the whole time, I just think there's a very important line not to be crossed, and it's somewhere in between "lol this pack is bad imma take the foil plains" and "omg i have 3 boros charms"
So you're saying P5 should stay out of the colors of the player of P1?
That's not how drafts work...
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Is this frowned upon? She's still a card-slinger in training and just wanted a bit of advice...but I certainly don't want to doom myself or her in the process and get into trouble with my LGS.
No, this is different than talking about picks during the draft. At the FNM level, deckbuilding advice, particularly for new players, is common place.
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In an LGS FNM scenario, which is REL, this is fine. You can ask people for advice and talk about your deck.
At a tournament, however, this would be against the rules.
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It is a draft, have fun with it.
You are not at Worlds or something, you are probably at your LGC.
IF someone wants to give information, so be it.
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No, as long as you are not swapping cards it would still not be against the rules in any way at all.
People can ask advice and get advice even while deck building, even in tourney situations.
If it is distracting other people, then you might get someone giving you a nudge or something.
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Thanks to Sioux for the Sig!
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Deck Tech:
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This happened last week when my wife and I went drafting. This guy couldn't BELIEVE all the stuff he was getting passed, and drafted every (.50) rare he could. My wife was seated right next to him in the draft, and said he kept saying things like "How did THIS get all the way to me. Don't people know what they're doing?"
I ended up playing him in the final round, and it turned out that his "mana base was a bit shaky," in his own words. ie...he was playing every rare he drafted, and relying on keyrunes to power a couple of them, since he was running all 5 colors.
Predictably, it was a blowout. He got a stack of bulk rares, and I ended up getting prize packs. (Also drafted a Watery Grave...so who cares about the rest!)
Oh, and the rare I passed in the first pack that he ended up picking up? I passed it for a Smite...which served me rather well, thank you.
On the other hand, there's a girl who drafts with us, and anytime she opens a pack, or even when you're playing her, anytime you make a play (other than dropping a basic/gate,) she ALWAYS, without fail says "THAT'S a card!"
Yes...it's a card. Congratulations on succeeding at basic recognition.
No, i'm saying that the information given is essentially equal to the information given to P2 and that information spreads to the entire table and the person who shouts it out or the player next to that person does not gain an unfair advantage over the rest of the table. It's not like this is some theory either, I've done a fair number of drafts involving this scenario. And we haven't even covered the windmill face up slam of a P3P1 or P2P1
To those spikes who yell at people who talk during a casual draft...wow, we would not be friends. Crap like that makes me want to spend my free time doing something else.
Hmmm, interesting. I guess I just assumed it was against the rules because it is against the rules in sealed deck at Competitive REL to discuss your pool with anyone before submitting your deck.
Not to mention it would just be a bad idea since you might play the person you are discussing it with, or someone you are playing might overhear you.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588