That is how I play constructed: all the entry fee goes into the prize pool.
So what about when the best players win all the prizes in Sealed or Constructed? They are taking advantage of the noobs, right?
Why is it only drafts with a re-draft that get accused of this?
~ Tim
Because part of the fee in a draft is for the packs. When I enter a constructed event, there is no expectation that I will win anything, and the entry fee is relatively low, say ~$5. A $13 draft on the other hand, I am not pnly paying for any prizes, but also the packs I am using to draft with. I thus expect to be able to walk out with the equivalent of the packs that I paid for. We all know that packs are negative EV, and letting someone cherrypick the best out of packs means that I am effectively paying 13 for nothing.
I would absolutely LOVE to see if the people who support Rare Redraft would agree to it in Constructed.
I think it would be HILARIOUS if someone brought a Legacy deck worth over $1,000 to a FNM, and it got smashed by a Modern deck worth half as much, and then the Modern player drafted the hell out of the Legacy player's staples. It could concievably happen if the pieces fall into place with the one but not the other.
Rare Redraft is the veteran player excuse to support Ante but not call it that. Hell, it's functionally WORSE than Ante, because the "winning" cards are NEVER the crappiest ones. And, you can cover your morality any way you want to by saying "Well, you still got something out of it."
There is no justifying it in my book. It is the way veteran players can take advantage over noobs, and it is reprehensible.
Size of stakes is the difference here. Many view draft as throwing away your $10 for an afternoon of fun. Not a mortgage payment. If you are in a group of people who are all of the opinion that I paid for the experience of drafting in a fun competitive environment, than it becomes more clear that its fairly easy to justify splitting "new extra rewards" ie the remaining cards of any true value back around. Rare redrafters draft for the love of the game, NOT to get rich.
Constructed is also a VERY different beast. How does giving up your deck in ANY way constitute skill over value? in the constructed world value=skill (95% of the time, excluding VERY old cards which only hold value for reserve list reasons) I mean sure I will play that way with you, redraft both our decks constructed I will bring 60 island deck, and walk away with cards worth more than 60 basic lands.
First, typical Constructed entry fees are 1/2 to 1/3 of draft entry fees.
Second, Constructed play is typically available to any player outside of the framework of a tournament. All you have to do is find one other person who wants to play. Therefore, one can reasonably assume that a player entering a Constructed tournament has done so specifically in order to contend for the prizes. One cannot assume this for people who enter a draft, because most people don't have the ability to get 7 other Magic-playing friends together for a draft. Many of them just want to draft. They shouldn't be forced to spend 100% of the entry fee to subsidize the sharks.
P.S.: If you enter a tournament where the rares are redrafted and you knew this when you entered, you have no right to walk out of there with the cards, no matter what the tournament rules say or don't say and no matter how much you despise redrafts. You must abide by the terms you agreed to when you entered the tournament.
First, typical Constructed entry fees are 1/2 to 1/3 of draft entry fees.
This is the issue here. The new or less frequent(more casual) players are paying for the packs in limited and end up getting virtually nothing when there is a redraft.
I'm pretty decent at limited, but don't like the idea of a redraft.
Its a lot easier to justify $5 for a few hours of fun or $15 for a few hours of fun and a few packs of cards than it is to justify $15 for a few hours of less fun(which drafts where rares are redrafted usually are).
They dont win everyone's cards (unless you are playing a special variant where "winner takes all" or something, but that isnt what I am talking about). Each player still gets 3 rares.
When you look up official rules of drafting, no where does it say that "at the end everyone puts rares into a pool then redrafts those". Again, people draft for different reasons. Some people like cards for constructed decks, others are playing for best EV.
Anytime you are redistributing cards you are taking cards from another person and taking their cards. The very definition of "redraft" is winning other people's cards.
The best player doesnt even get the 3 best rares - he gets the best rare, the 9th best rare and the 17th best rare (assuming 8 man pods). The player who came last even gets one rare that is better than one of the winner's rares.
The point is if you draft a deck that wins a tournament you might not even draft 3 rares. So, automatically you're already getting more value out of it. If you win the best rare (say someone opens a Bonfire of the Dammed) and nothing else of note is opened it doesn't matter. You have effectively taken value from another player. Redrafting =/= prize support.
Not everyone values cards the same way. And I've seen redrafts where first place gets first 3 picks and then so on down the line. Not everyone does "everyone picks 1 in order". The point I'm trying to make, and one that has yet to be disproved, is the notion that "it makes people draft better".
Now, again, incase anyone missed it:
- redrafting rares isnt right for everyone, it has pros and cons
- people should be made aware up front if there is going to be a redraft so they can make an informed decision as to whether they want to enter or not
Stores shouldn't be promoting rare redrafts due to bad customer experiences that can arise from it (aforementioned: Fraud, how it feels to lose everything then have the cool rare you opened taken from you, the rich get richer). I don't see how anyone could even want to play in an event that promotes only the winner getting anything. (in regular draft, even if you don't win you at least get to keep ALL the cards you draft).
They might not specifically punish "theft of rares from a redraft pool", but Im sure a TO could think of plenty of things to report it under (poor sportsmanship, failure to follow instructions, theft of tournament materials, whatever) - they could still throw the book at them.
Stores can ban people from their store for whatever reason they want to, they'll have a hard time getting the DCI to ban someone over taking a draft pool after the draft was over home. Because it is expected that the cards drafted are the players' to keep.
It isn't "theft of tournament materials". Theft of tournament materials is stealing another person's constructed deck, draft deck, FNM foils before they were given out, table/chairs at the venue. In a sanctioned limited event the cards belong to the people who open/draft them, if you get a great sealed pool before you pass it you can drop from the tournament and keep the cards if you wish. Same rules apply to draft.
A redraft is a social contract that takes place after the event ends. No one has to participate in it. The store is within their right to ban you from future events, but it isn't illegal.
Plus they get banned from the venue, and hopefully arrested too (because regardless of DCI rule technicalities, stealing peoples stuff is still real world stealing).
it isn't real world stealing. The cards technically belong to the person who drafted them, making exceptions on rares isn't grounds to get someone arrested. Even if they did, they'd have a hard time pressing charges because you can't prove that the cards were not the person's to begin with.
Running out with a rare that doesnt belong to you is no different that snatching boosters off the TOs table.
~ Tim
But according to the dci sanctioned tournament guidelines the rares do belong to the person who drafted them. Regardless of "we redraft at the end for rares". it is nothing like taking boosters from a store or stealing someone's binder.
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
Size of stakes is the difference here. Many view draft as throwing away your $10 for an afternoon of fun. Not a mortage payment. If you are in a group of people who are all of the oppinion that I paid for the experance of drafting in a fun compeitive enviroment, than it becomes more clear that its fairly easy to justify splitting "new extra rewards" ie the remaining cards of any true value back around. Rare redrafters draft for the love of the game, NOT to get rich.
The size of the stakes may mean that the morality is different to you, but to many (and apparantly the vast majority), the size of the theft does not change the fact that it feels like theft.
Here it is, boiled down to a very simple situation.
1) Young player walks in to an LGS. He has played Magic a few times, and hears they are having a draft. "What's a draft?"
2) You get three packs. When you are told to, you open the first pack, take out the card you like the most, and pass it to the next player. The player on the other side passes you the rest of the pack just opened there. They took one out before they passed. You keep on doing this until all of the cards are chosen, and then you open up the next pack, and do the same thing, but pass it the other direction. When all of this is done, you build a deck from the cards you chose.
3) You get to play with the cards you picked? That sounds neat. I get to see some of the new cards AND play with them, all for about the price of just buying the packs? And, I might WIN some more? Hey, sign me up now!
4) ****4 hours later*****
5) OK, turn in all of your rares.
6) New player says "What?" You mean I don't get to keep the cards I drafted? Why did I draft them?
7) You only drafted them for the tournament. Now, you draft again, and decide which ones you get to keep. The people who did the best get to pick first.
8) I guess I have to stay around to get SOMETHING for this night that just got really crappy, but I am not coming back.
And that could be the case if you did well, and cracked that nice, new Ajani that you wanted for your deck, but you placed SECOND, and because of that, the player who placed first took the only Ajani in the pool, the one you cracked and drafted, because, well, he can. Hope that Chandra, the Firebrand goes well in your deck that has no Red in it whatsoever.
To your player who insisted that he already "redrafts" in constructed...I mean not splitting up the M13 packs you are about to crack that were handed out. I mean, I get to draft YOUR Lion's Eye Diamond and you get to draft MY Worldfire that just happened to be in the Kiki-Jiki deck as a laugh. Make any sense now? What are you complaining about? I won, didn't I? If you had wanted to keep that LED, you should have instead played the best deck tonight, instead of the one you wanted to play because you thought it was more fun. What are you complaining about? HUH? You want to keep what you play with, you gotta step up your game!
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My other favorite argument from the side of the "redrafters" is:
"But we only care about drafting and not about rares"
So why do you care if people keep the cards at the end? Why can't this be answered legitimately? If you only care about the draft and playing in the draft, why do you care if you get rares at the end? I assume you are only playing limited so the cards are effectively meaningless after the event.
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
1) Young player walks in to an LGS. He has played Magic a few times, and hears they are having a draft. "What's a draft?"
2) You get three packs. When you are told to, you open the first pack, take out the card you like the most, and pass it to the next player. The player on the other side passes you the rest of the pack just opened there. They took one out before they passed. You keep on doing this until all of the cards are chosen, and then you open up the next pack, and do the same thing, but pass it the other direction. When all of this is done, you build a deck from the cards you chose.
3) You get to play with the cards you picked? That sounds neat. I get to see some of the new cards AND play with them, all for about the price of just buying the packs? And, I might WIN some more? Hey, sign me up now!
4) ****4 hours later*****
5) OK, turn in all of your rares.
6) New player says "What?" You mean I don't get to keep the cards I drafted? Why did I draft them?
7) You only drafted them for the tournament. Now, you draft again, and decide which ones you get to keep. The people who did the best get to pick first.
8) I guess I have to stay around to get SOMETHING for this night that just got really crappy, but I am not coming back.
This same scenario happened to me the first time that I encountered a redraft. I was shocked and very angry when they took away my rares.
Stores are NOT upfront about this redraft stuff most of the time. The stores doing this should be reported to the DCI, not the players. These stores need to post signs or something. There should be a picture of the store owner stealing your wallet from behind on the front door. (Don't these places get away with less real prizes when they "redraft"?)
Honestly, do any of you think that someone would be able to get away with walking out on an event week after week? The store would ban them.
My lgs does redraft, but we don't have to pay in to play. We only have to have 3 standard packs. The only prize pool is the redraft at the end. I bought a box of RtR from them over break and saved some packs to draft there once before coming back to college.
I owned all the cards in those 3 packs at the start of the draft before I passed my first pack. By passing those 14 cards I am saying that I am giving you these cards and you can do whatever you'd like with them, and I expect the same thing from everyone I'm with. I have the same mindset every time I pass. I personally detest redrafting because I may open a card I've been wanting for a constructed deck and then having the possibility of losing that card because of things outside of my control (even with a good deck you can struggle with not drawing answers). I've never thought "Man, I wish we redrafted because that guy pulled a ______ and it's not in his colors/I want it/etc".
Last night some guys I play with drafted RtR with packs as the only prize (I didn't play because I'm sick of opening RtR). A lot of money cards were pulled (of 7 people, the first packs had a Vraska, Steam Vents, Overgrown Tomb, and Supreme Verdict). Not one of those cards got played by the people who drafted them and everyone was cool with that. They didn't get mad that people rare drafted cards and if they wanted them they traded afterwards. One guy even asked me the value of a card (Epic Experiment) was at when he opened it and no one got upset that he was thinking about taking it even if it wouldn't be played.
At my local store once a draft is finished all the non-foil rares are drafted in the order of placing. I have seen posts here that loathe this practice, and I want to know why. It lets people play properly, encourages good play and lets the store to focus the prizes on the top two. Could someone explain this?
Because sometimes I bomb out with a bunch of mediocre junk and my only solace is that foil Hallowed Fountain I opened.
There seem to be lots of straw men flying around this thread...
Oh and stealing is still stealing. No matter how people try to justify it. Hopefully if it happens in the real world (not just internet forums :rolleyes:) it gets dealt with. Firmly. Veeery firmly.
~ Tim
Has anyone defending rare redrafting claimed that it is not about the rares, it is about the character of the draft, and the building of the best deck? Yes, they have. Consistently. And a few have said they would build the exact same deck even if they were not rare redrafting.
And, one of the opponents of rare redrafting suggested that the store do a "ghost draft", in which none of the participants kept anything from the card pool. Didn't really catch on at all with the Redraft supporters.
So, doesn't appear to be a straw man. The fact of the matter is very simple: Rare redraft offends newer players who get surprised. Rare redraft rewards people who have a signficantly higher skill level than the average player, and pretty much hoses those with lower to average skills. Rare redraft, especially when a surprise, will take people who could have been valuable members of the magic community in a few years, or even a few months, and turns then instead into the people who look down on the game and it's players.
Go ahead, defend that by soothsaying, it falls on deaf ears now.
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There's no need to justify stealing because no one is talking about stealing. Your poor understanding just makes you think people are talking about stealing
No one in this thread is advocating stealing.
Everyone would agree that stealing should be dealt with. However, if you try to take the "law" into your own hands, even if you weren't completely wrong with the theft and stealing remarks, you would end up being in trouble with the law. If you want to waste the cops time with nonsense stealing accusations, that's you're choice; but get ready for the repercussions if you try to take it farther than that.
Like I said before, maybe people don't like redrafting because if someone raredrafts and drops, not a single thing can be done about it other than possibly banning that person from a single store and maybe complaining about it online
Why do you think that's not a sufficiently harsh penalty? Most people only have 2-3 stores in their area. If you get banned from one, you have greatly diminished opportunites for playing magic. And the gains are not going to be that good, you won't get more than like maybe 40$ profit this way.
The kind of people who are into drafting, I don't see them taking that exchange even without a moral compass. I can more easily envision constructed players doing that.. but drafters usually aren't there to make money. Magic the Gathering is not a very good way to have a healthy bank account, so most of the people in your LGS are already making a statement that they value the playing experience more than cash.
There seem to be lots of straw men flying around this thread...
Oh and stealing is still stealing. No matter how people try to justify it.
Multiple people have already attempted to explain to you why this isn't stealing. You can't steal something that is already in your possession. Stores should practice redrafts in a more upfront manner. The sad truth is that they often do it sneakily so that they can do more business on draft night with newer customers.
If anything, it is the store that is stealing your rares. You own the deck. They are arbitrarily deciding to take some of it back so that they can make more money not offering you enough real prizes.
This is probably going to be my last post about this as I've talked about it for the past few days and I'm getting tired of it.
Here are the best arguments I have received from "redrafters":
1. Among friends it is a common/great practice (I won't argue redrafting among friends, that is totally different than redrafting as "prize support" for LGS events)
2. Somehow people who redraft believe it makes people better drafters because the "allure" of rares/foils/mythics are seemingly taken out of the equation (I don't believe this, I think people will draft the same regardless, but I'll mention it here)
3. At some stores this is cheaper than a traditional draft (if by cheaper, than by as little as 3 to 5 dollars. not really a substantial amount by any stretch)
4. Everyone gets 3 rares (even though unless you finish in the top 3 you're likely to end up with rares that cost less than your commons/uncommons combined. )
That is about all I think I can come up with for arguments for redrafting. The problem with all of these is it increasing the likelihood of fraud (be it by bringing in bulk rares to exchange for good ones, new/inexperienced players who have never drafted having no idea what "redraft" is, better than average players always getting the prizes and the best cards out of the draft pool).
I won't argue against redrafting with friends. I've done that in the past, it is fair (i guess) when there is no prizes on the line and it is in a casual atmosphere. I *DO NOT* support redrafting at LGS. People have a variety of reasons why they go to a store to draft, I do not believe redrafting should be introduced in that environment (I have no idea how good/bad the drafters I'm drafting with are, why do I want to potentially risk any good/decent card I open to just be blatantly taken from me?).
The best solution that I can come up with is you need to support LGS that offer decent pack prizes (Even if it is as little as a pack per match win.. if you're decent you'll likely end up with 2 or 3 packs of cards most weeks and never less than a pack). If you understand that over time you'll likely either open expensive cards or get expensive cards from your pack winnings that you'll never feel like you are "missing out on getting at least 3 rares from a draft".
I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
It is fine if everyone at your LGS is really competitive. But it is a big turn-off for newer players.
I am all for having 2 separate drafts- redraft or etc. and a normal draft. Then players choose their own adventure.
I'd pick redrafts or such, but if my LGS could only have 1, I'd pick normal drafts. Let new players have their fun.
1. Among friends it is a common/great practice (I won't argue redrafting among friends, that is totally different than redrafting as "prize support" for LGS events)
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I won't argue against redrafting with friends. I've done that in the past, it is fair (i guess) when there is no prizes on the line and it is in a casual atmosphere. I *DO NOT* support redrafting at LGS. People have a variety of reasons why they go to a store to draft, I do not believe redrafting should be introduced in that environment (I have no idea how good/bad the drafters I'm drafting with are, why do I want to potentially risk any good/decent card I open to just be blatantly taken from me?).
Redraft among friends is perfectly acceptable. It is then a case of, "If you don't agree, don't buy in to this box cracking". That agreement is "Hey, let's crack this box, play a few drafts as we do it, and then put everything together and draft out the rares fairly so that we all get something close to what we paid into the box out of it." That is PERFECTLY reasonable. And, in fact, a wonderful way to do it. But that is not what this thread is about (I understand that was your point).
What none of the redrafters seem to get (maybe it is because they are so far beyond casual players now that they are always playing for competetive reasons, I don't know) is that for many players, ESPECIALLY CASUAL, there is that moment of sheer JOY as you crack the pack and find that rare you drooled over during the spoiler week. Whether it is in reality a good card or not is irrelevant. BUT, you crack the pack and you damned near faint. YOU GOT IT.
Whoops, no you didn't, because someone who placed maybe even ONE WIN BETTER wanted it too. Too bad, so sad, you should have done better. Take what we were nice enough to let you have and be happy with that, you scrub.
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First off, this sort of thing has been argued to death between here and Limited.
Second, I think we've reached the end of this discourse. We're going nowhere fast. Clearly there's a preference towards normal drafting, but I nary doubt that either is better than the other because there are all sorts of different playgroups.
Rather than let people continue to generalize and waste time by rehashing the same points, I'm going to shutter this. The same will be done for the other thread.
Because part of the fee in a draft is for the packs. When I enter a constructed event, there is no expectation that I will win anything, and the entry fee is relatively low, say ~$5. A $13 draft on the other hand, I am not pnly paying for any prizes, but also the packs I am using to draft with. I thus expect to be able to walk out with the equivalent of the packs that I paid for. We all know that packs are negative EV, and letting someone cherrypick the best out of packs means that I am effectively paying 13 for nothing.
Size of stakes is the difference here. Many view draft as throwing away your $10 for an afternoon of fun. Not a mortgage payment. If you are in a group of people who are all of the opinion that I paid for the experience of drafting in a fun competitive environment, than it becomes more clear that its fairly easy to justify splitting "new extra rewards" ie the remaining cards of any true value back around. Rare redrafters draft for the love of the game, NOT to get rich.
Constructed is also a VERY different beast. How does giving up your deck in ANY way constitute skill over value? in the constructed world value=skill (95% of the time, excluding VERY old cards which only hold value for reserve list reasons) I mean sure I will play that way with you, redraft both our decks constructed I will bring 60 island deck, and walk away with cards worth more than 60 basic lands.
Second, Constructed play is typically available to any player outside of the framework of a tournament. All you have to do is find one other person who wants to play. Therefore, one can reasonably assume that a player entering a Constructed tournament has done so specifically in order to contend for the prizes. One cannot assume this for people who enter a draft, because most people don't have the ability to get 7 other Magic-playing friends together for a draft. Many of them just want to draft. They shouldn't be forced to spend 100% of the entry fee to subsidize the sharks.
P.S.: If you enter a tournament where the rares are redrafted and you knew this when you entered, you have no right to walk out of there with the cards, no matter what the tournament rules say or don't say and no matter how much you despise redrafts. You must abide by the terms you agreed to when you entered the tournament.
This is the issue here. The new or less frequent(more casual) players are paying for the packs in limited and end up getting virtually nothing when there is a redraft.
I'm pretty decent at limited, but don't like the idea of a redraft.
Its a lot easier to justify $5 for a few hours of fun or $15 for a few hours of fun and a few packs of cards than it is to justify $15 for a few hours of less fun(which drafts where rares are redrafted usually are).
When you look up official rules of drafting, no where does it say that "at the end everyone puts rares into a pool then redrafts those". Again, people draft for different reasons. Some people like cards for constructed decks, others are playing for best EV.
Anytime you are redistributing cards you are taking cards from another person and taking their cards. The very definition of "redraft" is winning other people's cards.
The point is if you draft a deck that wins a tournament you might not even draft 3 rares. So, automatically you're already getting more value out of it. If you win the best rare (say someone opens a Bonfire of the Dammed) and nothing else of note is opened it doesn't matter. You have effectively taken value from another player. Redrafting =/= prize support.
Not everyone values cards the same way. And I've seen redrafts where first place gets first 3 picks and then so on down the line. Not everyone does "everyone picks 1 in order". The point I'm trying to make, and one that has yet to be disproved, is the notion that "it makes people draft better".
Stores shouldn't be promoting rare redrafts due to bad customer experiences that can arise from it (aforementioned: Fraud, how it feels to lose everything then have the cool rare you opened taken from you, the rich get richer). I don't see how anyone could even want to play in an event that promotes only the winner getting anything. (in regular draft, even if you don't win you at least get to keep ALL the cards you draft).
Stores can ban people from their store for whatever reason they want to, they'll have a hard time getting the DCI to ban someone over taking a draft pool after the draft was over home. Because it is expected that the cards drafted are the players' to keep.
It isn't "theft of tournament materials". Theft of tournament materials is stealing another person's constructed deck, draft deck, FNM foils before they were given out, table/chairs at the venue. In a sanctioned limited event the cards belong to the people who open/draft them, if you get a great sealed pool before you pass it you can drop from the tournament and keep the cards if you wish. Same rules apply to draft.
A redraft is a social contract that takes place after the event ends. No one has to participate in it. The store is within their right to ban you from future events, but it isn't illegal.
it isn't real world stealing. The cards technically belong to the person who drafted them, making exceptions on rares isn't grounds to get someone arrested. Even if they did, they'd have a hard time pressing charges because you can't prove that the cards were not the person's to begin with.
But according to the dci sanctioned tournament guidelines the rares do belong to the person who drafted them. Regardless of "we redraft at the end for rares". it is nothing like taking boosters from a store or stealing someone's binder.
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The size of the stakes may mean that the morality is different to you, but to many (and apparantly the vast majority), the size of the theft does not change the fact that it feels like theft.
Here it is, boiled down to a very simple situation.
1) Young player walks in to an LGS. He has played Magic a few times, and hears they are having a draft. "What's a draft?"
2) You get three packs. When you are told to, you open the first pack, take out the card you like the most, and pass it to the next player. The player on the other side passes you the rest of the pack just opened there. They took one out before they passed. You keep on doing this until all of the cards are chosen, and then you open up the next pack, and do the same thing, but pass it the other direction. When all of this is done, you build a deck from the cards you chose.
3) You get to play with the cards you picked? That sounds neat. I get to see some of the new cards AND play with them, all for about the price of just buying the packs? And, I might WIN some more? Hey, sign me up now!
4) ****4 hours later*****
5) OK, turn in all of your rares.
6) New player says "What?" You mean I don't get to keep the cards I drafted? Why did I draft them?
7) You only drafted them for the tournament. Now, you draft again, and decide which ones you get to keep. The people who did the best get to pick first.
8) I guess I have to stay around to get SOMETHING for this night that just got really crappy, but I am not coming back.
And that could be the case if you did well, and cracked that nice, new Ajani that you wanted for your deck, but you placed SECOND, and because of that, the player who placed first took the only Ajani in the pool, the one you cracked and drafted, because, well, he can. Hope that Chandra, the Firebrand goes well in your deck that has no Red in it whatsoever.
To your player who insisted that he already "redrafts" in constructed...I mean not splitting up the M13 packs you are about to crack that were handed out. I mean, I get to draft YOUR Lion's Eye Diamond and you get to draft MY Worldfire that just happened to be in the Kiki-Jiki deck as a laugh. Make any sense now? What are you complaining about? I won, didn't I? If you had wanted to keep that LED, you should have instead played the best deck tonight, instead of the one you wanted to play because you thought it was more fun. What are you complaining about? HUH? You want to keep what you play with, you gotta step up your game!
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
"But we only care about drafting and not about rares"
So why do you care if people keep the cards at the end? Why can't this be answered legitimately? If you only care about the draft and playing in the draft, why do you care if you get rares at the end? I assume you are only playing limited so the cards are effectively meaningless after the event.
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This same scenario happened to me the first time that I encountered a redraft. I was shocked and very angry when they took away my rares.
Stores are NOT upfront about this redraft stuff most of the time. The stores doing this should be reported to the DCI, not the players. These stores need to post signs or something. There should be a picture of the store owner stealing your wallet from behind on the front door. (Don't these places get away with less real prizes when they "redraft"?)
Honestly, do any of you think that someone would be able to get away with walking out on an event week after week? The store would ban them.
And by the same token, they only care about drafting really well so they can steal all your rares week after week.
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I owned all the cards in those 3 packs at the start of the draft before I passed my first pack. By passing those 14 cards I am saying that I am giving you these cards and you can do whatever you'd like with them, and I expect the same thing from everyone I'm with. I have the same mindset every time I pass. I personally detest redrafting because I may open a card I've been wanting for a constructed deck and then having the possibility of losing that card because of things outside of my control (even with a good deck you can struggle with not drawing answers). I've never thought "Man, I wish we redrafted because that guy pulled a ______ and it's not in his colors/I want it/etc".
Last night some guys I play with drafted RtR with packs as the only prize (I didn't play because I'm sick of opening RtR). A lot of money cards were pulled (of 7 people, the first packs had a Vraska, Steam Vents, Overgrown Tomb, and Supreme Verdict). Not one of those cards got played by the people who drafted them and everyone was cool with that. They didn't get mad that people rare drafted cards and if they wanted them they traded afterwards. One guy even asked me the value of a card (Epic Experiment) was at when he opened it and no one got upset that he was thinking about taking it even if it wouldn't be played.
Because sometimes I bomb out with a bunch of mediocre junk and my only solace is that foil Hallowed Fountain I opened.
Has anyone defending rare redrafting claimed that it is not about the rares, it is about the character of the draft, and the building of the best deck? Yes, they have. Consistently. And a few have said they would build the exact same deck even if they were not rare redrafting.
And, one of the opponents of rare redrafting suggested that the store do a "ghost draft", in which none of the participants kept anything from the card pool. Didn't really catch on at all with the Redraft supporters.
So, doesn't appear to be a straw man. The fact of the matter is very simple: Rare redraft offends newer players who get surprised. Rare redraft rewards people who have a signficantly higher skill level than the average player, and pretty much hoses those with lower to average skills. Rare redraft, especially when a surprise, will take people who could have been valuable members of the magic community in a few years, or even a few months, and turns then instead into the people who look down on the game and it's players.
Go ahead, defend that by soothsaying, it falls on deaf ears now.
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
Why do you think that's not a sufficiently harsh penalty? Most people only have 2-3 stores in their area. If you get banned from one, you have greatly diminished opportunites for playing magic. And the gains are not going to be that good, you won't get more than like maybe 40$ profit this way.
The kind of people who are into drafting, I don't see them taking that exchange even without a moral compass. I can more easily envision constructed players doing that.. but drafters usually aren't there to make money. Magic the Gathering is not a very good way to have a healthy bank account, so most of the people in your LGS are already making a statement that they value the playing experience more than cash.
You're missing the point here...
It's just a simple basic fact that this happens. It happened to me years ago, too. It sucks.
Multiple people have already attempted to explain to you why this isn't stealing. You can't steal something that is already in your possession. Stores should practice redrafts in a more upfront manner. The sad truth is that they often do it sneakily so that they can do more business on draft night with newer customers.
If anything, it is the store that is stealing your rares. You own the deck. They are arbitrarily deciding to take some of it back so that they can make more money not offering you enough real prizes.
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Here are the best arguments I have received from "redrafters":
1. Among friends it is a common/great practice (I won't argue redrafting among friends, that is totally different than redrafting as "prize support" for LGS events)
2. Somehow people who redraft believe it makes people better drafters because the "allure" of rares/foils/mythics are seemingly taken out of the equation (I don't believe this, I think people will draft the same regardless, but I'll mention it here)
3. At some stores this is cheaper than a traditional draft (if by cheaper, than by as little as 3 to 5 dollars. not really a substantial amount by any stretch)
4. Everyone gets 3 rares (even though unless you finish in the top 3 you're likely to end up with rares that cost less than your commons/uncommons combined. )
That is about all I think I can come up with for arguments for redrafting. The problem with all of these is it increasing the likelihood of fraud (be it by bringing in bulk rares to exchange for good ones, new/inexperienced players who have never drafted having no idea what "redraft" is, better than average players always getting the prizes and the best cards out of the draft pool).
I won't argue against redrafting with friends. I've done that in the past, it is fair (i guess) when there is no prizes on the line and it is in a casual atmosphere. I *DO NOT* support redrafting at LGS. People have a variety of reasons why they go to a store to draft, I do not believe redrafting should be introduced in that environment (I have no idea how good/bad the drafters I'm drafting with are, why do I want to potentially risk any good/decent card I open to just be blatantly taken from me?).
The best solution that I can come up with is you need to support LGS that offer decent pack prizes (Even if it is as little as a pack per match win.. if you're decent you'll likely end up with 2 or 3 packs of cards most weeks and never less than a pack). If you understand that over time you'll likely either open expensive cards or get expensive cards from your pack winnings that you'll never feel like you are "missing out on getting at least 3 rares from a draft".
I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
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I am all for having 2 separate drafts- redraft or etc. and a normal draft. Then players choose their own adventure.
I'd pick redrafts or such, but if my LGS could only have 1, I'd pick normal drafts. Let new players have their fun.
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
Redraft among friends is perfectly acceptable. It is then a case of, "If you don't agree, don't buy in to this box cracking". That agreement is "Hey, let's crack this box, play a few drafts as we do it, and then put everything together and draft out the rares fairly so that we all get something close to what we paid into the box out of it." That is PERFECTLY reasonable. And, in fact, a wonderful way to do it. But that is not what this thread is about (I understand that was your point).
What none of the redrafters seem to get (maybe it is because they are so far beyond casual players now that they are always playing for competetive reasons, I don't know) is that for many players, ESPECIALLY CASUAL, there is that moment of sheer JOY as you crack the pack and find that rare you drooled over during the spoiler week. Whether it is in reality a good card or not is irrelevant. BUT, you crack the pack and you damned near faint. YOU GOT IT.
Whoops, no you didn't, because someone who placed maybe even ONE WIN BETTER wanted it too. Too bad, so sad, you should have done better. Take what we were nice enough to let you have and be happy with that, you scrub.
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
Are you propositioning us, sir?
Second, I think we've reached the end of this discourse. We're going nowhere fast. Clearly there's a preference towards normal drafting, but I nary doubt that either is better than the other because there are all sorts of different playgroups.
Rather than let people continue to generalize and waste time by rehashing the same points, I'm going to shutter this. The same will be done for the other thread.
Closed.
[GTC] Gatecrash Patch for MWS (249/249)