1st of all, how do you cremate every thing that has died? No way people could cremate every thing that use to be living before someone could get it reanimated,
2nd, with Cremate, it's a member of the Orzhov. Also, it is a great card. People have it in their side boards to not only stop reanimator decks or Snapcaster Mage's, but to draw a card. It is pretty powerful.
Now my view on the most powerful guilds. It depends what you look at, law, money, war front, or knowledge. I will go overall though.
I say it is a tie for Golgari and Boros guilds. Why you may ask Golgari over Dimir? Because Dimir are all about mind controlling. Most zombies the Golgari summon do not have any brains left to search through and wipe. Also, Golgari have insects as spies. Who ever expects the fly on the wall to actually be spying on you? Also Golgari have their own assassins. Also they know have a planeswalker, Vraska, the Hidden.
Now why do I say Boros ties with Golgari for top guild? The reason why Boros is powerful is two things: popularity and their army. Most of Ravnica's citizens love the Boros for smiting evil and solving their problems and crime waves, especially fighting to stop the Rakdos Festivals. They are wanted by most citizens in Ravnica. Their army is also well taught in the art of war's weaponry and magic, a force to be reckoned with.
Just my two cents on who are the top guilds.
That's actually very interesting. I never actually knew that the Golgari had their own assassins. It would make sense, considering they also master "black mana". I just checked on the Wizards website.
However, the Dimir actually also have their own Spirits, Skeletons and Zombies as well (another thing I forgot until I researched it). If you kill Zombies and Skeletons, they will regenerate or the Dimir could find new material to create Zombies with. Spirits, on the other hand, can't be killed. The Golgari deal only with living matter, which can be replenished, but destroyed. The Golgari do not deal with Spirits.
Moreover, the Dimir are much more secretive in their dealings, even more so than the Golgari. Like I previously mentioned in a previous post, nobody knows where the Dimir reside. This would give them an upper hand in everything, even if they cannot mind control Golgari zombies.
1st of all, how do you cremate every thing that has died? No way people could cremate every thing that use to be living before someone could get it reanimated,
2nd, with Cremate, it's a member of the Orzhov. Also, it is a great card. People have it in their side boards to not only stop reanimator decks or Snapcaster Mage's, but to draw a card. It is pretty powerful.
Now my view on the most powerful guilds. It depends what you look at, law, money, war front, or knowledge. I will go overall though.
I say it is a tie for Golgari and Boros guilds. Why you may ask Golgari over Dimir? Because Dimir are all about mind controlling. Most zombies the Golgari summon do not have any brains left to search through and wipe. Also, Golgari have insects as spies. Who ever expects the fly on the wall to actually be spying on you? Also Golgari have their own assassins. Also they know have a planeswalker, Vraska, the Hidden.
Now why do I say Boros ties with Golgari for top guild? The reason why Boros is powerful is two things: popularity and their army. Most of Ravnica's citizens love the Boros for smiting evil and solving their problems and crime waves, especially fighting to stop the Rakdos Festivals. They are wanted by most citizens in Ravnica. Their army is also well taught in the art of war's weaponry and magic, a force to be reckoned with.
Just my two cents on who are the top guilds.
That's actually very interesting. I never actually knew that the Golgari had their own assassins. It would make sense, considering they also master "black mana". I just checked on the Wizards website.
However, the Dimir actually also have their own Spirits, Skeletons and Zombies as well (another thing I forgot until I researched it). If you kill Zombies and Skeletons, they will regenerate or the Dimir could find new material to create Zombies with. Spirits, on the other hand, can't be killed. The Golgari deal only with living matter, which can be replenished, but destroyed. The Golgari do not deal with Spirits.
Moreover, the Dimir are much more secretive in their dealings, even more so than the Golgari. Like I previously mentioned in a previous post, nobody knows where the Dimir reside. This would give them an upper hand in everything, even if they cannot mind control Golgari zombies.
Ah wow didn't know that. But I do know one down fall to the Dimir. They wipe their own minds and do not know how many their are in the guild since they don't keep in contact well. So Golgari have a better force when brought together. From what I know, the Dimir rarely work together and usually don't know their comrades. That I believe is their downfall.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
Ah wow didn't know that. But I do know one down fall to the Dimir. They wipe their own minds and do not know how many their are in the guild since they don't keep in contact well. So Golgari have a better force when brought together. From what I know, the Dimir rarely work together and usually don't know their comrades. That I believe is their downfall.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
It's a bonus, a downfall and a necessity for the Dimir. It's a bonus in that if a Dimir agent is captured, they cannot give any information about other comrades, so the Golgari would have a lot of trouble trying to figure out where other Dimir agents are. They would have to run their own covert operations to find out.
But it's also a downfall in that if each proven Dimir agent (it would be difficult to prove, but still possible) is taken out silently, the majority of the Dimir Guild would not know about it. Even if they did, they would be more interested in protecting themselves rather than the interests of a guild many do not even know that they work for. Vaclav would have a very hard time rounding up the entire guild, because many would believe that they had been cheated on by not knowing who they work for. The only solution would be for Vaclav to mind control every Dimir agent to work towards one centralised goal in defeating the Golgari. Which could work, but its much less efficient (Blue mana has never been a quick colour) than the Golgari gathering everything together.
The Dimir really have no other choice but to limit the contacts of their members. Its the only way for them to survive.
In direct combat though, Golgari would absolutely annihilate the Dimir. On top of that, they can do covert operations fairly well. But while the Dimir can only do covert operations successfully, they do it better, as they have access to Spirits and are much more secretive.
It's a bonus, a downfall and a necessity for the Dimir. It's a bonus in that if a Dimir agent is captured, they cannot give any information about other comrades, so the Golgari would have a lot of trouble trying to figure out where other Dimir agents are. They would have to run their own covert operations to find out.
But it's also a downfall in that if each proven Dimir agent (it would be difficult to prove, but still possible) is taken out silently, the majority of the Dimir Guild would not know about it. Even if they did, they would be more interested in protecting themselves rather than the interests of a guild many do not even know that they work for. Vaclav would have a very hard time rounding up the entire guild, because many would believe that they had been cheated on by not knowing who they work for. The only solution would be for Vaclav to mind control every Dimir agent to work towards one centralised goal in defeating the Golgari. Which could work, but its much less efficient (Blue mana has never been a quick colour) than the Golgari gathering everything together.
The Dimir really have no other choice but to limit the contacts of their members. Its the only way for them to survive.
That is an interesting concept with the Dimir. I agree that I can see benefits to the way they operate, but it's greatest flaw is taking out enough nodes make a message unreachable like you said.
In direct combat though, Golgari would absolutely annihilate the Dimir. On top of that, they can do covert operations fairly well. But while the Dimir can only do covert operations successfully, they do it better, as they have access to Spirits and are much more secretive.
I definetly agree with you there. Some guilds are just are better at some things than others. The Golgari using death and life for immense power, and the Dimir using secrecy as a massive cover to hide behind, being able to keep poking from behind. Poke it enough times and it will die.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
Future Sight:
You have consider the context. While Niv-Mizzet is bored to rule Ravnica outright, it has been well established that he has no qualms about putting guilds in their place. If he wanted, Vizkopa would be immolated at any given time. He knows where EXACTLY Duskmantle is, and can eradicate any of these threats at any given time. As long as they don't stand in his way. Orzhov can't bribe him, extract anything from him. Dimir can't assassinate him, or otherwise remove him. He is the single most powerful and brilliant entity on Ravnica, and by that extension, the Izzet are. Without a doubt.
It has been well established that Izzet and Boros work together, creating new tools for the Boros soldiers and keep the surface in check. And the underground business and the behind the scenes action is heavily controlled. But I do like your way of thinking, you're intelligent.
So, in other words, Orzhov and Dimir hold only as much power as Niv-Mizzet allows them to. That's power.
Considering that it has been established that Niv-Mizzet would have a psychological motivation to destroy guilds if necessary, I am convinced of Niv-Mizzet's potential.
But I have to say one more point.
I'm just curious whether it has been established in the lore whether "immortal" Spirit creatures can be dealt with by mortal creatures. One argument that I had based the Orzhov and Dimir power on was their dealings with immortal spirits. If they can be dealt with, then the Dimir and Orzhov power would be greatly reduced, and Niv-Mizzet would unquestionably be the strongest.
If they can't be dealt with by mortal creatures, then it probably will be a stalemate as an entity like the Ghost Council can could do so much with their power. The Dimir Spirits could possibly find a way to sneak attack on Niv-Mizzet, but it's highly unlikely given his intelligence.
Could an attack of all Orzhov and/or Dimir Spirits kill Niv-Mizzet? I'm not sure, but that's going into unknown territory.
Edit 1: Spirits could conspire against Niv-Mizzet, as I mentioned in a previous post, but on second thoughts, its questionable whether it would be successful. Im beginning to change my mind on the subject. If Niv-Mizzet would know about Duskmantle, then a simple conspiration of Spirits would be easy for him to find out. Whether he can kill the Spirits though would also be questionable.
The thing you guys boosting Niv are forgetting is that he's a capricious entity and doesn't always act in what would be in the guild's best interests. The guild serves him, but he is not his guild. Within the context of this thought exercise, it would be a coin toss as to whether or not the guild would be able to count on him in ways that matter.
Also, there's much ado made of his power and his genius, but at the end of the day he's not that big of a deal. He got his ass handed to him fighting the nephilim, and a rag-tag band of heroes with varied guild affiliations was able to take them down. Niv's power comes in being able to plan for the long game, and when he's forced to act on small timescales he's really not that big of a deal. So when the guilds find themselves suddenly on Earth, Niv's planning is suddenly worthless and he's starting from a point of having to beg the world's banks and corporations (Orzhov) and governments (Azorius) for table scraps of funding.
As for the Dimir, their power comes from having an established intelligence network on Ravnica. Suddenly transpose them into the real world and suddenly their network is useless. Hell, given the structure of the guild it's not even a given that it will even still be able to function for the first couple decades after the relocation, much like it had to be reformed after Agyrem separated from Ravnica, taking Szadek with it. Sure, once they did reform they'd be indispensable, but they'd hardly be the most powerful of all.
For the Boros, it kinda depends on if we're talking Rav Block Boros or RTR Block Boros in terms of figuring out where they place. In the original Rav block, they were police and army rolled into one. This would give them a huge feet-on-the-ground presence and a nontrivial level of political power (though still not enough to challenge the Orzhov since the rank and file of the Boros weren't working for free and the money has to come from somewhere). RTR Block Boros are pretty much an oversized private military contractor like Xi. They'd be relatively easy to dispose of entirely on Earth within a couple decades since their value to the system is pretty much having body counts in military conflicts that don't show up in news reports as military, and the Dimir would make that a moot point. Once the Dimir get their operations going, the Boros Legion becomes nothing more than the go-to source of mall security guards.
The Orzhov are a shame to white. The selesnya actually hate them for binding souls to the ilving world instead of giving them what they could get:heaven. The boros hate the orzhov for stealing their angels with bribes. The golgari do not care about monies, not do the rakdos, or the dimir. The azorius arent allies with the orzhov because of the thrull zombies. Lastly, the izzet are the most powerful, because they can blow up the whole city if they want to, and they provide infrastructure. Then the simic, because there wouldn't be any health care without them.
That's actually very interesting. I never actually knew that the Golgari had their own assassins. It would make sense, considering they also master "black mana". I just checked on the Wizards website.
However, the Dimir actually also have their own Spirits, Skeletons and Zombies as well (another thing I forgot until I researched it). If you kill Zombies and Skeletons, they will regenerate or the Dimir could find new material to create Zombies with. Spirits, on the other hand, can't be killed. The Golgari deal only with living matter, which can be replenished, but destroyed. The Golgari do not deal with Spirits.
Moreover, the Dimir are much more secretive in their dealings, even more so than the Golgari. Like I previously mentioned in a previous post, nobody knows where the Dimir reside. This would give them an upper hand in everything, even if they cannot mind control Golgari zombies.
Ah wow didn't know that. But I do know one down fall to the Dimir. They wipe their own minds and do not know how many their are in the guild since they don't keep in contact well. So Golgari have a better force when brought together. From what I know, the Dimir rarely work together and usually don't know their comrades. That I believe is their downfall.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
It's a bonus, a downfall and a necessity for the Dimir. It's a bonus in that if a Dimir agent is captured, they cannot give any information about other comrades, so the Golgari would have a lot of trouble trying to figure out where other Dimir agents are. They would have to run their own covert operations to find out.
But it's also a downfall in that if each proven Dimir agent (it would be difficult to prove, but still possible) is taken out silently, the majority of the Dimir Guild would not know about it. Even if they did, they would be more interested in protecting themselves rather than the interests of a guild many do not even know that they work for. Vaclav would have a very hard time rounding up the entire guild, because many would believe that they had been cheated on by not knowing who they work for. The only solution would be for Vaclav to mind control every Dimir agent to work towards one centralised goal in defeating the Golgari. Which could work, but its much less efficient (Blue mana has never been a quick colour) than the Golgari gathering everything together.
The Dimir really have no other choice but to limit the contacts of their members. Its the only way for them to survive.
In direct combat though, Golgari would absolutely annihilate the Dimir. On top of that, they can do covert operations fairly well. But while the Dimir can only do covert operations successfully, they do it better, as they have access to Spirits and are much more secretive.
That is an interesting concept with the Dimir. I agree that I can see benefits to the way they operate, but it's greatest flaw is taking out enough nodes make a message unreachable like you said.
I definetly agree with you there. Some guilds are just are better at some things than others. The Golgari using death and life for immense power, and the Dimir using secrecy as a massive cover to hide behind, being able to keep poking from behind. Poke it enough times and it will die.
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
Considering that it has been established that Niv-Mizzet would have a psychological motivation to destroy guilds if necessary, I am convinced of Niv-Mizzet's potential.
But I have to say one more point.
I'm just curious whether it has been established in the lore whether "immortal" Spirit creatures can be dealt with by mortal creatures. One argument that I had based the Orzhov and Dimir power on was their dealings with immortal spirits. If they can be dealt with, then the Dimir and Orzhov power would be greatly reduced, and Niv-Mizzet would unquestionably be the strongest.
If they can't be dealt with by mortal creatures, then it probably will be a stalemate as an entity like the Ghost Council can could do so much with their power. The Dimir Spirits could possibly find a way to sneak attack on Niv-Mizzet, but it's highly unlikely given his intelligence.
Could an attack of all Orzhov and/or Dimir Spirits kill Niv-Mizzet? I'm not sure, but that's going into unknown territory.
Edit 1: Spirits could conspire against Niv-Mizzet, as I mentioned in a previous post, but on second thoughts, its questionable whether it would be successful. Im beginning to change my mind on the subject. If Niv-Mizzet would know about Duskmantle, then a simple conspiration of Spirits would be easy for him to find out. Whether he can kill the Spirits though would also be questionable.
Also, there's much ado made of his power and his genius, but at the end of the day he's not that big of a deal. He got his ass handed to him fighting the nephilim, and a rag-tag band of heroes with varied guild affiliations was able to take them down. Niv's power comes in being able to plan for the long game, and when he's forced to act on small timescales he's really not that big of a deal. So when the guilds find themselves suddenly on Earth, Niv's planning is suddenly worthless and he's starting from a point of having to beg the world's banks and corporations (Orzhov) and governments (Azorius) for table scraps of funding.
As for the Dimir, their power comes from having an established intelligence network on Ravnica. Suddenly transpose them into the real world and suddenly their network is useless. Hell, given the structure of the guild it's not even a given that it will even still be able to function for the first couple decades after the relocation, much like it had to be reformed after Agyrem separated from Ravnica, taking Szadek with it. Sure, once they did reform they'd be indispensable, but they'd hardly be the most powerful of all.
For the Boros, it kinda depends on if we're talking Rav Block Boros or RTR Block Boros in terms of figuring out where they place. In the original Rav block, they were police and army rolled into one. This would give them a huge feet-on-the-ground presence and a nontrivial level of political power (though still not enough to challenge the Orzhov since the rank and file of the Boros weren't working for free and the money has to come from somewhere). RTR Block Boros are pretty much an oversized private military contractor like Xi. They'd be relatively easy to dispose of entirely on Earth within a couple decades since their value to the system is pretty much having body counts in military conflicts that don't show up in news reports as military, and the Dimir would make that a moot point. Once the Dimir get their operations going, the Boros Legion becomes nothing more than the go-to source of mall security guards.
Signature courtesy of Rivenor and Miraculous Recovery
EDH Altered Cards by Galspanic (Seriously, this guy's awesome.)
My Pauper Cube
Tapped-Out Simulator
My Trade Thread
-Decks-
Commander:
GWR Rith, the Awakener RWG
U Kami of the Crescent Moon U (Flagship Deck)
BW Teysa, Orzhov Scion WB
Under Construction:
UBR Crosis, the Purger RBU
Cube:
WUBRGX Pauper XGRBUW
Please don't necro old threads.