What do you think is the strongest/powerful Ravnica guild:
1. In terms of card mechanics.
2. If they existed in real life.
I think that the Dimir Guild in real life would be the strongest and/or most powerful. By far the most secretive and knowledgable, they pretty much have the ability to manipulate anything in Ravnica to their own ends.
On paper, however, the Azorius would have the most legitimate power, as they essentially are the government of Ravnica.
The Boros Legion would defeat any army in the world and is therefore the most powerful.
Lightning Helix is ridiculously strong for its cost.
Edit: Boros would have a great chance in that case.
On a completely unrelated note, even though I said Dimir is the strongest, I have a strong bias for the Orzhov guild. I don't know whether Ozhov would be the strongest, but they are definately not the weakest. If the Orzhov Guild dies, the economy would collapse and their would be chaos. Moreover, they can bribe any guild (except the Dimir, they don't care about moneys:D) into anything they want. Their army would have some level of strength as well.
I think in recent times the Gruul would be one of the weakest.
Real-world-wise, the Orzhov would have the combined power of a major religion AND the world's banks. They'd be the most powerful guild by a very, very wide margin.
Real-world-wise, the Orzhov would have the combined power of a major religion AND the world's banks. They'd be the most powerful guild by a very, very wide margin.
Long live the Orzhov!
I think the reason why I originally thought that the Orzhov would not be the strongest because militarily they could get hammered by other soldiers and mages of other guilds. But they can buy their own soldiers anyway. The Orzhov are reputably allies with the Azorius, Boros and Selesnya, so we do have the ultimate alliance.
Golgari at the moment. It's new ability is awesome.
I reckon Golgari's new ability is much, much better than the old one. The old "Dredge" ability just keeps milling you too much to be beneficial.
While its true you could still play cards from the graveyard through the dredge mechanic, the mechanic works by milling your own cards and skipping your draw phase. So you would be sending more cards to the graveyard then getting them out.
I reckon Golgari's new ability is much, much better than the old one. The old "Dredge" ability just keeps milling you too much to be beneficial.
While its true you could still play cards from the graveyard through the dredge mechanic, the mechanic works by milling your own cards and skipping your draw phase. So you would be sending more cards to the graveyard then getting them out.
... not sure if trolling.
Dredge is one of the most busted keywords printed to date.
Dredge is one of the most busted keywords printed to date.
I've never been up against a Golgari deck in years, so I wouldn't remember too much, but based on what I've read with the ability, "Dredge" seems to just mill several of your cards for just one card.
Grave-Troll is busted only because of "Dredge 6". Its other abilities do not matter.
In that case, I still prefer the "Scavange" ability, just because it seems more balanced than the "Dredge" ability. But then again, it could still be too weak for any competitive play.
In that case, I still prefer the "Scavange" ability, just because it seems more balanced than the "Dredge" ability. But then again, it could still be too weak for any competitive play.
Edit: The Scavenge ability, that is.
First you prefer "Scavenge" because it is better, and then you prefer it because it is weaker? Sounds strange to me. Also, just look at the decks called "Dredge" in Legacy and Vintage, and how they work. You will see that putting cards into your graveyard as fast as you can is a very powerful thing to do. Dredge decks in both formats can win on turn 1, although it is pretty rare. Sometimes you just hit for 30 before your opponent gets a turn ^^
On another note, putting cards from your library to your graveyard doesn't matter in terms of card advantage. The only thing you care about when calculating card advantage is how many cards you have on the battlefield and in hand, so it doesn't matter whether cards are in your graveyard or library anyway. I would be happy to put 6 cards from my library to my graveyard if the card I got back from it is better than the one I would have drawn.
On topic, I think it is hard to say which guilds would be the most powerful unless you define what kind of setting we are in. You mention the real world, but does that include magic or not?
1. Golgari for sure. Dredge is the most broken mechanic since Storm.
2. Not sure. Not much of a Vorthos, but I think Orzhov would for the reasons posted above.
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First you prefer "Scavenge" because it is better, and then you prefer it because it is weaker? Sounds strange to me. Also, just look at the decks called "Dredge" in Legacy and Vintage, and how they work. You will see that putting cards into your graveyard as fast as you can is a very powerful thing to do. Dredge decks in both formats can win on turn 1, although it is pretty rare. Sometimes you just hit for 30 before your opponent gets a turn ^^
On another note, putting cards from your library to your graveyard doesn't matter in terms of card advantage. The only thing you care about when calculating card advantage is how many cards you have on the battlefield and in hand, so it doesn't matter whether cards are in your graveyard or library anyway. I would be happy to put 6 cards from my library to my graveyard if the card I got back from it is better than the one I would have drawn.
On topic, I think it is hard to say which guilds would be the most powerful unless you define what kind of setting we are in. You mention the real world, but does that include magic or not?
I probably should have added a bit more information or said something different, but I prefer the "Scavange" ability because it just seems more exciting amd appealing for casual play. When I read "Dredge" for the first time, I thought it would be to sacrificial for the player to run in a deck. When I realised how broken it was, it still did not seem fun enough for casual play due to it's overpowered nature. I know I said something different, but I probably expressed it in the wrong words.
In terms of my definition of "real-life" setting, you can refer to "real-life" as being "in the world of Ravnica" or "if they existed on Earth" if one chooses. You can have your own definition if you want, but this could lead onto a tangent.
(e.g. Strongest Guild if set on jupiter; makes absolutely no sense).
In our block constructed playgroup, the Selesnya Midrange player busts all of the other guilds up real good. Most of all the Azorius and Izzet players (me and 2 others)
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Orzhov's only power is in the banks and churches, enforced by a relatively few enforcers. They have no standing army, no unity, no real intelligence or reasonable number to rule.
The Orzhov have plenty of unity for their purposes - increasing the wealth of the guild. Their intelligence comes in the form of market reports and insider info. The power of the banks and churches is greater than the power of any nation or any standing army. The HSBC was found to have a number of executives directly involved in financing anti-US terror... and the only punishment being meted out as a result of this is $1.9 billion in fines. This comes out to about only two weeks of the company's profit, and the stated reason for having the fine set so low was because anything bigger would actually be detrimental to the company. That is to say, anything bigger would have been a noticeable punishment and the bank wouldn't abide by that.
The world's nations are in total servitude to the banks.
You can't seriously be having this discussion when the answer is already established. It was clearly stated, that Niv-Mizzet could rule all of Ravnica if he wanted to, he just finds the idea boring. So, therefore, Izzet is on the top.
Far second is Rakdos, because the power of the Demon himself and the might he inspires among him followers, followed by their recklessness and the fact that they are willing to heed to every one of his orders.
Golgari and Boros are shortly behind Rakdos, because of their numbers and military efficiency and might, respectively.
Contrary to what most of you have written, Dimir and Orzhov hold little to no power. Dimir works very slowly, and doesn't have the charisma in the hearts of it's followers, sheer number, military force or the immense brilliance and power of the individual. Orzhov's only power is in the banks and churches, enforced by a relatively few enforcers. They have no standing army, no unity, no real intelligence or reasonable number to rule.
I will agree, but disagree. It seems that Niv-Mizzet could rule all of Ravnica, but his primary weakness is his tendency to get bored. When someone is bored of something, common sense says they won't do it. When they don't do it, it doesn't happen. Therefore, Niv-Mizzet ruling over Ravnica, regardless of power, is a hypothetical, and really shouldn't be a consideration. The power of motivation to rule should also be considered as well, because it is what causes powerful actions. For example, an athlete woudn't be able to dominate a sport if it wasn't because of strong psychological motivation and strength. Moreoever, the Izzet guild itself doesn't display that much interest in ruling over Ravnica anyway, so they wouldn't be high on the list at all.
But when you have a super-secretive underground organisation that no-one knows exists, realistically, how can you destroy it? The Dimir blew up Prahv, the Azorius Guildhall (and centre of all Ravnica). You have to know it exists first, you have to know where they are located, who works for who. In lore, it is mentioned where their location is, but almost no-one in Ravnica would have any idea where they would be. The Dimir also destroy their own memories so they cannot even recall the crimes that they do. Moreover, there ability to manipulate individuals means that they could probably manipulate Niv-Mizzet to their own ends anyway. Note that I said probably, because I'm not sure if it is established if Niv-Mizzet actually knows about the existance of the Dimir. If he does know, then he would be too bored to stop it, and would probably become a planeswalker and go somewhere else.
The Orzhov shouldn't be underestimated. They defeated the Gruul with their small little army. Even though the Gruul was a declining force anyway, you would think that an aggressive Guild would bring a non-aggressive guild to its knees. It didn't. And think of this cycle:
What is realistic motivation for the Izzet supplying inventions to the public? The desire for discovery, and money, because they need to eat.
How would they realistically get money?
Through people buying inventions, and funding from the government (The Azorius) for infrastructure.
How do people realistically get money to buy inventions? Through work, in which a huge proportion would work for businesses, and a small portion, the government. Businesses would have a larger porportion of employees because, otherwise, it would be a socialist country. From what I've read, Ravnica seems more market economy oriented
Who do all businesses have connections to? The Orzhov
The Ozhov Guild controls the economy, and the prime motivation of the majority of the populace to work and keep society at bay. They buy their way out of anything. Even the Gruul, who most likely can live without money, cannot defeat the Orzhov. The only guild in which the Orzhov would have legitimate trouble defeating is the Dimir (as they probably are unaware of their plans) and maybe the Boros, because of their military efficiency.
Moreover, if you kill an Orzhov, they come back as a ghost. If you are unlucky, a Ghost Council member. You can't kill ghosts. They will conspire against anyone, even if Niv-Mizzet does try to take control over Ravnica. Moreover, the Azorius have their own spirits as well, so they would be quite difficult to kill as well.
As far as the Golgari are concerned, cremation would keep them at bay.
Edit #1: Which Guild is featured on the Cremate card? (Also read the flavour text of both the Ravnica and RTR versions of the card). Yes, its a bad card, I'm speaking in terms of "real-life" rather than card mechanics.
Edit #2: http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/productarticle.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/guilds/dimir (In this website, it says the Dimir are already plotting against Niv-Mizzet. Also it seems the populace actually does know about the existance of the Dimir, but they refuse to acknowledge it and have no idea where their Guildhall is).
An interesting offshoot to question two is: "How would one rank the guilds in their ability to amass material wealth?"
Yes, the Orzhov would most likely come in first. Frankly, Chairman of the Federal Planar Reserve would be the cushiest job in the city--even more so than Patriarch of the Ghost Council. Gruul would probably end up as the most destitute, the good news for them being people tend to root for the underdog and the overlooked reality that one doesn't need vast resources to cause great damage.
The absolute wealthiest of Orzhovs, I think, would be the ones with friendly connections to House Dimir--the guild best suited for ciphering money away in offshore extraplanar accounts far beyond the reach of Azorius taxmen.
As far as the Golgari are concerned, cremation would keep them at bay.
Edit #1: Which Guild is featured on the Cremate card? (Also read the flavour text of both the Ravnica and RTR versions of the card). Yes, its a bad card, I'm speaking in terms of "real-life" rather than card mechanics.
1st of all, how do you cremate every thing that has died? No way people could cremate every thing that use to be living before someone could get it reanimated,
2nd, with Cremate, it's a member of the Orzhov. Also, it is a great card. People have it in their side boards to not only stop reanimator decks or Snapcaster Mage's, but to draw a card. It is pretty powerful.
Now my view on the most powerful guilds. It depends what you look at, law, money, war front, or knowledge. I will go overall though.
I say it is a tie for Golgari and Boros guilds. Why you may ask Golgari over Dimir? Because Dimir are all about mind controlling. Most zombies the Golgari summon do not have any brains left to search through and wipe. Also, Golgari have insects as spies. Who ever expects the fly on the wall to actually be spying on you? Also Golgari have their own assassins. Also they know have a planeswalker, Vraska, the Hidden.
Now why do I say Boros ties with Golgari for top guild? The reason why Boros is powerful is two things: popularity and their army. Most of Ravnica's citizens love the Boros for smiting evil and solving their problems and crime waves, especially fighting to stop the Rakdos Festivals. They are wanted by most citizens in Ravnica. Their army is also well taught in the art of war's weaponry and magic, a force to be reckoned with.
Just my two cents on who are the top guilds.
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1. In terms of card mechanics.
2. If they existed in real life.
I think that the Dimir Guild in real life would be the strongest and/or most powerful. By far the most secretive and knowledgable, they pretty much have the ability to manipulate anything in Ravnica to their own ends.
On paper, however, the Azorius would have the most legitimate power, as they essentially are the government of Ravnica.
Hard to give this a solid answer until Gatecrash is out.
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Boros has Lightning Helix.
The Boros Legion would defeat any army in the world and is therefore the most powerful.
Lightning Helix is ridiculously strong for its cost.
Edit: Boros would have a great chance in that case.
On a completely unrelated note, even though I said Dimir is the strongest, I have a strong bias for the Orzhov guild. I don't know whether Ozhov would be the strongest, but they are definately not the weakest. If the Orzhov Guild dies, the economy would collapse and their would be chaos. Moreover, they can bribe any guild (except the Dimir, they don't care about moneys:D) into anything they want. Their army would have some level of strength as well.
I think in recent times the Gruul would be one of the weakest.
Long live the Orzhov!
I think the reason why I originally thought that the Orzhov would not be the strongest because militarily they could get hammered by other soldiers and mages of other guilds. But they can buy their own soldiers anyway. The Orzhov are reputably allies with the Azorius, Boros and Selesnya, so we do have the ultimate alliance.
Real life: Orzhov. How do you kill a ghost council?
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Big Johnny.
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I reckon Golgari's new ability is much, much better than the old one. The old "Dredge" ability just keeps milling you too much to be beneficial.
While its true you could still play cards from the graveyard through the dredge mechanic, the mechanic works by milling your own cards and skipping your draw phase. So you would be sending more cards to the graveyard then getting them out.
In terms of RTR cards, I guess Azorius is the best, thanks to Sphinx's Revelation. Rakdos is probably the best Limited deck though.
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Dredge is one of the most busted keywords printed to date.
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I've never been up against a Golgari deck in years, so I wouldn't remember too much, but based on what I've read with the ability, "Dredge" seems to just mill several of your cards for just one card.
On the other hand Golgari Grave-Troll is utterly, utterly busted.
That's just the point, you fill up your graveyard using Dredge, and win with Bridge from Below, Narcomoeba, Ichorid, Bloodghast, Nether Shadow, Dread Return and Cabal Therapy. All of which do not require you to pay mana to cast or activate.
Grave-Troll is busted only because of "Dredge 6". Its other abilities do not matter.
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Big Johnny.
In that case, I still prefer the "Scavange" ability, just because it seems more balanced than the "Dredge" ability. But then again, it could still be too weak for any competitive play.
Edit: The Scavenge ability, that is.
First you prefer "Scavenge" because it is better, and then you prefer it because it is weaker? Sounds strange to me. Also, just look at the decks called "Dredge" in Legacy and Vintage, and how they work. You will see that putting cards into your graveyard as fast as you can is a very powerful thing to do. Dredge decks in both formats can win on turn 1, although it is pretty rare. Sometimes you just hit for 30 before your opponent gets a turn ^^
On another note, putting cards from your library to your graveyard doesn't matter in terms of card advantage. The only thing you care about when calculating card advantage is how many cards you have on the battlefield and in hand, so it doesn't matter whether cards are in your graveyard or library anyway. I would be happy to put 6 cards from my library to my graveyard if the card I got back from it is better than the one I would have drawn.
On topic, I think it is hard to say which guilds would be the most powerful unless you define what kind of setting we are in. You mention the real world, but does that include magic or not?
2. Not sure. Not much of a Vorthos, but I think Orzhov would for the reasons posted above.
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I probably should have added a bit more information or said something different, but I prefer the "Scavange" ability because it just seems more exciting amd appealing for casual play. When I read "Dredge" for the first time, I thought it would be to sacrificial for the player to run in a deck. When I realised how broken it was, it still did not seem fun enough for casual play due to it's overpowered nature. I know I said something different, but I probably expressed it in the wrong words.
In terms of my definition of "real-life" setting, you can refer to "real-life" as being "in the world of Ravnica" or "if they existed on Earth" if one chooses. You can have your own definition if you want, but this could lead onto a tangent.
(e.g. Strongest Guild if set on jupiter; makes absolutely no sense).
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The Orzhov have plenty of unity for their purposes - increasing the wealth of the guild. Their intelligence comes in the form of market reports and insider info. The power of the banks and churches is greater than the power of any nation or any standing army. The HSBC was found to have a number of executives directly involved in financing anti-US terror... and the only punishment being meted out as a result of this is $1.9 billion in fines. This comes out to about only two weeks of the company's profit, and the stated reason for having the fine set so low was because anything bigger would actually be detrimental to the company. That is to say, anything bigger would have been a noticeable punishment and the bank wouldn't abide by that.
The world's nations are in total servitude to the banks.
I will agree, but disagree. It seems that Niv-Mizzet could rule all of Ravnica, but his primary weakness is his tendency to get bored. When someone is bored of something, common sense says they won't do it. When they don't do it, it doesn't happen. Therefore, Niv-Mizzet ruling over Ravnica, regardless of power, is a hypothetical, and really shouldn't be a consideration. The power of motivation to rule should also be considered as well, because it is what causes powerful actions. For example, an athlete woudn't be able to dominate a sport if it wasn't because of strong psychological motivation and strength. Moreoever, the Izzet guild itself doesn't display that much interest in ruling over Ravnica anyway, so they wouldn't be high on the list at all.
But when you have a super-secretive underground organisation that no-one knows exists, realistically, how can you destroy it? The Dimir blew up Prahv, the Azorius Guildhall (and centre of all Ravnica). You have to know it exists first, you have to know where they are located, who works for who. In lore, it is mentioned where their location is, but almost no-one in Ravnica would have any idea where they would be. The Dimir also destroy their own memories so they cannot even recall the crimes that they do. Moreover, there ability to manipulate individuals means that they could probably manipulate Niv-Mizzet to their own ends anyway. Note that I said probably, because I'm not sure if it is established if Niv-Mizzet actually knows about the existance of the Dimir. If he does know, then he would be too bored to stop it, and would probably become a planeswalker and go somewhere else.
The Orzhov shouldn't be underestimated. They defeated the Gruul with their small little army. Even though the Gruul was a declining force anyway, you would think that an aggressive Guild would bring a non-aggressive guild to its knees. It didn't. And think of this cycle:
What is realistic motivation for the Izzet supplying inventions to the public?
The desire for discovery, and money, because they need to eat.
How would they realistically get money?
Through people buying inventions, and funding from the government (The Azorius) for infrastructure.
How do people realistically get money to buy inventions?
Through work, in which a huge proportion would work for businesses, and a small portion, the government. Businesses would have a larger porportion of employees because, otherwise, it would be a socialist country. From what I've read, Ravnica seems more market economy oriented
Who do all businesses have connections to?
The Orzhov
The Ozhov Guild controls the economy, and the prime motivation of the majority of the populace to work and keep society at bay. They buy their way out of anything. Even the Gruul, who most likely can live without money, cannot defeat the Orzhov. The only guild in which the Orzhov would have legitimate trouble defeating is the Dimir (as they probably are unaware of their plans) and maybe the Boros, because of their military efficiency.
Moreover, if you kill an Orzhov, they come back as a ghost. If you are unlucky, a Ghost Council member. You can't kill ghosts. They will conspire against anyone, even if Niv-Mizzet does try to take control over Ravnica. Moreover, the Azorius have their own spirits as well, so they would be quite difficult to kill as well.
As far as the Golgari are concerned, cremation would keep them at bay.
Edit #1: Which Guild is featured on the Cremate card? (Also read the flavour text of both the Ravnica and RTR versions of the card). Yes, its a bad card, I'm speaking in terms of "real-life" rather than card mechanics.
Edit #2: http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/productarticle.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/guilds/dimir (In this website, it says the Dimir are already plotting against Niv-Mizzet. Also it seems the populace actually does know about the existance of the Dimir, but they refuse to acknowledge it and have no idea where their Guildhall is).
Yes, the Orzhov would most likely come in first. Frankly, Chairman of the
FederalPlanar Reserve would be the cushiest job in the city--even more so than Patriarch of the Ghost Council. Gruul would probably end up as the most destitute, the good news for them being people tend to root for the underdog and the overlooked reality that one doesn't need vast resources to cause great damage.The absolute wealthiest of Orzhovs, I think, would be the ones with friendly connections to House Dimir--the guild best suited for ciphering money away in
offshoreextraplanar accounts far beyond the reach of Azorius taxmen.1st of all, how do you cremate every thing that has died? No way people could cremate every thing that use to be living before someone could get it reanimated,
2nd, with Cremate, it's a member of the Orzhov. Also, it is a great card. People have it in their side boards to not only stop reanimator decks or Snapcaster Mage's, but to draw a card. It is pretty powerful.
Now my view on the most powerful guilds. It depends what you look at, law, money, war front, or knowledge. I will go overall though.
I say it is a tie for Golgari and Boros guilds. Why you may ask Golgari over Dimir? Because Dimir are all about mind controlling. Most zombies the Golgari summon do not have any brains left to search through and wipe. Also, Golgari have insects as spies. Who ever expects the fly on the wall to actually be spying on you? Also Golgari have their own assassins. Also they know have a planeswalker, Vraska, the Hidden.
Now why do I say Boros ties with Golgari for top guild? The reason why Boros is powerful is two things: popularity and their army. Most of Ravnica's citizens love the Boros for smiting evil and solving their problems and crime waves, especially fighting to stop the Rakdos Festivals. They are wanted by most citizens in Ravnica. Their army is also well taught in the art of war's weaponry and magic, a force to be reckoned with.
Just my two cents on who are the top guilds.
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