Last night at FNM I was paired off against a young player (12-13 years old). After our first game, which I won, we both decided to sideboard. My opponent was polite but a bit scatterbrained, and he had cards all over the place. When we were done sideboarding, I looked at the small pile of cards next to his library, asked him if that was his sideboard, and asked him to count how many cards were there. Sure enough, there were only 14.
Since so many players have been nice to me, I didn't want to be a total jerk about it and just asked him to fix the problem instead of calling the judge. He beat me the second game and we drew the third since we ran out of time.
Would you have called the judge and taken a win for the round? Or would you have been polite and did what I did? I can see valid arguments both ways. (Final consideration: the boy's father, a rather large, rude man, was present at the store with his son.)
Its FNM. Probably not. I know I _should_, but that also depends if he's a bratty kid. Also depends on the judge present. If I do call the judge, it will be so that the judge explains the situation, not to look for a win. I'm not sure what the penalty is, but getting a win because I called the judge for something like that would just make me feel bad.
On the other hand, if this were the top 8 in a PT, you'd bet I'd be calling a judge with the expectation for something more substantial than a talking-to. Blood for the blood god!
I never really understood why a sideboard less than 15 cards was illegal. You're actually giving yourself a disadvantage by not having the full 15 anyway.
Because that may mean a 61 card maindeck with a "maindecked SB card".
Ensuring 0/15 card sideboard prevents arguments regarding "well, I really had that maindeck." Can't even refer to decklists because at that level decklists aren't required.
I know it isn't in standard, but if you're playing red and see a maindecked COP:red, that's kinda significant.
At FNM we would make sure that his deck was legal and have him fix any errors. As long as he/she isn't cheating there wont be a severe penalty. Be patient with kids, they may get annoying sometimes, but teaching them is better than driving them away.
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the user formerly known as isopsycho86
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig Legacy RUBFaithless Dredge
Rude father = non-issue unless he was attempting to interfere with the match or intimidate you.
I think you played it right. Calling a judge on a kid who made what looks like a simple error is not classy, and you avoided that problem. FNM is about learning, not stomping kids in the dirt using technicalities.
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Currently playing:
Standard: WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern: UR Twinning RU G Venus Fly Trap G U Artifacts Aggro U
I usually attend FNM with a 0 card sideboard and I've been playing for years. Would you have called a judge on me?
I belive that that's actually legal. As far as I know sideboards should be either 0 or 15 cards.
Edit: looked that up and I'm right
100.4a In constructed play, sideboards are optional, but must contain exactly fifteen cards if used. The four-card limit (see rule 100.2a) applies to the combined deck and sideboard.
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Anyway, this being an FNM, you probably handled this correct. I think I would have done the same thing tbh.
At FNM we would make sure that his deck was legal and have him fix any errors. As long as he/she isn't cheating there wont be a severe penalty. Be patient with kids, they may get annoying sometimes, but teaching them is better than driving them away.
And what if he did the same mistake at a GP? He would be given a game loss, I believe that the infracture procedure guide should be at ALL events that way there is no double standard.
And what if he did the same mistake at a GP? He would be given a game loss, I believe that the infracture procedure guide should be at ALL events that way there is no double standard.
DCI has decreed that FNM is a "learning" environment, and therefore is at a different Rules Enforcement Level than competetive play at tournaments. That is why the difference in application of the rules. The rules are still rules, however, at FNM, the focus is on teaching/learning the rules, where at tournaments, the focus is on enforcing/abiding by the rules.
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Currently playing:
Standard: WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern: UR Twinning RU G Venus Fly Trap G U Artifacts Aggro U
I probably would've done the same, OP.
I have such a high regard for my LGS because of people that were kind to me at my first FNM. An opponent let me take back a move where I tried to O-ring his Inkmoth Nexus among other mistakes. He beat me into the dirt nevertheless. Since then, I've returned the kind favour to many other newer players. Having an illegal sideboard at an FNM really isn't a big enough deal to call a judge over for it. Simply telling the younger misinformed player how to fix his/her mistake seems much easier and less messy.
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Why are there so many mirrors at the gym?
I already know what I look like. That's why I'm there.
Yes, in retrospect, I'm feeling a lot better about my decision in the light of day. Kid was nice so there was no reason to be "cutthroat" as was mentioned.
And what if he did the same mistake at a GP? He would be given a game loss, I believe that the infracture procedure guide should be at ALL events that way there is no double standard.
If you read the MIPG's stance on Regular, it directs you to the document "Judging at Regular REL". In that document, it says the fix for decklist errors is generally to fix them without penalty.
I'd have let it slide. At FNM, most of the time I'm just there to have fun and play with friends - my entire playgroup generally lets things slide on a regular basis. "Aw, crap, forgot to draw a card - do you mind?", "@#$%, my SB only has 14 cards in it, one sec", etc. are minor things for our playgroup because we keep to being honest and focus on having fun and being fair more than enforcing strict rules.
Save the cutthroat shenanigans for the GPs and PTQs, I say.
If you call the judge over, and the judge basically fixes the problem and gives them a light reprimand, not only does it show that FNM is a more forgiving environment when it comes to rules mistakes, it shows that the judge isn't a figure to be afraid of or afraid of calling over to resolve things. As a player, it's not your place to decide what level of adherence everyone has to the rules of the game. Everyone who says "It's just FMN, anything goes there, let it slide" is contributing to breeding lax players who make FNM an anything-goes format in the first place, IMO. There's no reason why you can't call a judge and manage to avoid turning into a rules-lawyering hardass.
I fail to see how calling a judge would have been a jerk move in this case.
As has been previously mentioned, it's FNM, so there won't be a game loss penalty. The OP wasn't accusing the kid of cheating. Maybe the kid dropped a SB card on the floor; maybe he made a mistake and ended up with a 61 card maindeck; maybe he miscounted and didn't actually have a 15 card sideboard to begin with. A good judge will be able to quickly clear up any mistakes in a non-biased manner so both players can get back to playing.
Calling a judge would have resulted in the judge telling the younger player to add a basic land to their sideboard. No penalties as its FNM.
A good rule of thumb to remember for FNM is that there's really not any warnings or game losses unless it is a repeated issue. A very wise judge told me, "there aren't any warnings for FNM really; I prefer to have 'educational opportunities'. FNM is about teaching people the game, not about being super competitive.
I probably wouldnt have called a judge at a higher event truthfully. sometimes things slip players like this.
This isn't the right thing to do. You might not want to be "that guy" basically getting your opponent a game loss, but the reason we issue game losses for deck/deck list problems at REL Competitive/Professional is because of the potential for abuse. If the risk of getting caught is just a slap on the wrist, then why not try to get away with it? We issue game losses for these kind of problems because the risk for abuse is just too high, so we issue a penalty fitting of infraction.
By issuing a game loss, we're actually showing the player that we're doing everything in our power to prevent cheating.
Although (as mentioned) in the original scenario, the player at FNM (REL Regular) is not likely to get a gameloss. Judges can issue game losses at REL Regular, but they almost never will (and almost never should). Game losses are reserved for enforcing education on repeat offenders. I won't give an example because it's very rare, and most of the time if you're dealing with a player who keeps committing the same error again and again after being talked to on multiple occasions, it might be times to look into whether or not these are intentional behaviors.
If you call the judge over, and the judge basically fixes the problem and gives them a light reprimand, not only does it show that FNM is a more forgiving environment when it comes to rules mistakes, it shows that the judge isn't a figure to be afraid of or afraid of calling over to resolve things. As a player, it's not your place to decide what level of adherence everyone has to the rules of the game. Everyone who says "It's just FMN, anything goes there, let it slide" is contributing to breeding lax players who make FNM an anything-goes format in the first place, IMO. There's no reason why you can't call a judge and manage to avoid turning into a rules-lawyering hardass.
This.
On one hand, there is no reason for the person to get a game loss. On the other, following rules is important. Fortunately, you get the best of both worlds at FNM. The fact that FNM is so lightly punished is a very good thing. But it's important to make sure everyone knows that the judge should resolve things, not the players.
This very situation happened to me at FNM yesterday. I drew a SB card in Game 1 but admitted it to my opponent. He was ok with me replacing the card and drawing another card to replace it. At some FNM's I've been to that would have been a capital offense though. I'm happy FNM isn't a rating padding zone anymore because fewer buttholes show up.
It's FNM. I couldn't care less if he jammed his entire sideboard into his deck and took no cards out.
That said, I'd tell him what he did wrong and try to help him not do it again. Other people tend to be really rude, and I'd hate for him to lose some games because someone else decided to get an easy win.
EDIT - Also, the kid's father shouldn't be an issue. If he makes any physical threat against you, then he doesn't sound like a decent human being. I'm sure most store owner's would be interesting in banning any sort of folks who threaten to impose physical violence on their patrons from the store.
Since so many players have been nice to me, I didn't want to be a total jerk about it and just asked him to fix the problem instead of calling the judge. He beat me the second game and we drew the third since we ran out of time.
Would you have called the judge and taken a win for the round? Or would you have been polite and did what I did? I can see valid arguments both ways. (Final consideration: the boy's father, a rather large, rude man, was present at the store with his son.)
The kid's dad is a non-issue unless he was interfering with the match. Even in that case, you should call a judge on him and not the kid.
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Big Johnny.
Maybe the dad was having a bad day - hopefully if he's back he'll lighten up.
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On the other hand, if this were the top 8 in a PT, you'd bet I'd be calling a judge with the expectation for something more substantial than a talking-to. Blood for the blood god!
Because that may mean a 61 card maindeck with a "maindecked SB card".
Ensuring 0/15 card sideboard prevents arguments regarding "well, I really had that maindeck." Can't even refer to decklists because at that level decklists aren't required.
I know it isn't in standard, but if you're playing red and see a maindecked COP:red, that's kinda significant.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
Legacy
RUBFaithless Dredge
I think you played it right. Calling a judge on a kid who made what looks like a simple error is not classy, and you avoided that problem. FNM is about learning, not stomping kids in the dirt using technicalities.
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
EDH
WBRKaalia of the VastRBW
BChainer, Dementia MasterB
Legacy
0Manaless Dredge0
RGoblinsR
Standard
RBWThe AristocratsWBR
I belive that that's actually legal. As far as I know sideboards should be either 0 or 15 cards.
Edit: looked that up and I'm right
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Anyway, this being an FNM, you probably handled this correct. I think I would have done the same thing tbh.
And what if he did the same mistake at a GP? He would be given a game loss, I believe that the infracture procedure guide should be at ALL events that way there is no double standard.
Dega midrange 1-0
DCI has decreed that FNM is a "learning" environment, and therefore is at a different Rules Enforcement Level than competetive play at tournaments. That is why the difference in application of the rules. The rules are still rules, however, at FNM, the focus is on teaching/learning the rules, where at tournaments, the focus is on enforcing/abiding by the rules.
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
I have such a high regard for my LGS because of people that were kind to me at my first FNM. An opponent let me take back a move where I tried to O-ring his Inkmoth Nexus among other mistakes. He beat me into the dirt nevertheless. Since then, I've returned the kind favour to many other newer players. Having an illegal sideboard at an FNM really isn't a big enough deal to call a judge over for it. Simply telling the younger misinformed player how to fix his/her mistake seems much easier and less messy.
I already know what I look like. That's why I'm there.
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
If you read the MIPG's stance on Regular, it directs you to the document "Judging at Regular REL". In that document, it says the fix for decklist errors is generally to fix them without penalty.
http://www.wizards.com/contentresources/wizards/wpn/main/documents/magic_the_gathering_infraction_procedure_guide_pdf2.pdf
http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/WPN/Main/Documents/Magic_The_Gathering_Judging_at_Regular_REL_PDF1.pdf
So yes, this stance is following the exact terms of the MIPG.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Save the cutthroat shenanigans for the GPs and PTQs, I say.
MtG:RPG - Kai
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
As has been previously mentioned, it's FNM, so there won't be a game loss penalty. The OP wasn't accusing the kid of cheating. Maybe the kid dropped a SB card on the floor; maybe he made a mistake and ended up with a 61 card maindeck; maybe he miscounted and didn't actually have a 15 card sideboard to begin with. A good judge will be able to quickly clear up any mistakes in a non-biased manner so both players can get back to playing.
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A good rule of thumb to remember for FNM is that there's really not any warnings or game losses unless it is a repeated issue. A very wise judge told me, "there aren't any warnings for FNM really; I prefer to have 'educational opportunities'. FNM is about teaching people the game, not about being super competitive.
1st place GPT Seattle
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This isn't the right thing to do. You might not want to be "that guy" basically getting your opponent a game loss, but the reason we issue game losses for deck/deck list problems at REL Competitive/Professional is because of the potential for abuse. If the risk of getting caught is just a slap on the wrist, then why not try to get away with it? We issue game losses for these kind of problems because the risk for abuse is just too high, so we issue a penalty fitting of infraction.
By issuing a game loss, we're actually showing the player that we're doing everything in our power to prevent cheating.
Although (as mentioned) in the original scenario, the player at FNM (REL Regular) is not likely to get a gameloss. Judges can issue game losses at REL Regular, but they almost never will (and almost never should). Game losses are reserved for enforcing education on repeat offenders. I won't give an example because it's very rare, and most of the time if you're dealing with a player who keeps committing the same error again and again after being talked to on multiple occasions, it might be times to look into whether or not these are intentional behaviors.
This.
On one hand, there is no reason for the person to get a game loss. On the other, following rules is important. Fortunately, you get the best of both worlds at FNM. The fact that FNM is so lightly punished is a very good thing. But it's important to make sure everyone knows that the judge should resolve things, not the players.
That said, I'd tell him what he did wrong and try to help him not do it again. Other people tend to be really rude, and I'd hate for him to lose some games because someone else decided to get an easy win.
EDIT - Also, the kid's father shouldn't be an issue. If he makes any physical threat against you, then he doesn't sound like a decent human being. I'm sure most store owner's would be interesting in banning any sort of folks who threaten to impose physical violence on their patrons from the store.