Me and a friend have been discussing counterspells and what makes them unfun, really good in certain decks, necessary in some formats, and have come up with a potential solution to all these problems in one simple elegant solution.
All costs to a spell and ability are paid on resolution.
So how exactly does this nerf counterspells? Well, lets say a player tapped two forests to add two G to his mana pool. He then spent two G on Grizzly Bear. His opponent counters it. Be cause the spell never resolves, using this rule, he still has GG in his mana pool, and can use it to cast something else.
So doesn't this make counterspells useless? No, not at all. They are still wonderful tools against combo decks, or any deck relying on a specific card to win. This does make them useless in tempo decks however.
What about x spells? Well, you still have to choose x when you cast. That has never changed. IF something happens to prevent you from being able to pay for it, it is countered as a result. No payment is made toward the spell. For instance, I cast harvest pyre, declaring x equals 5 (GY has 5 cards), and in response my opponent casts Purify the Grave exiling one card from my graveyard, then harvest pyre is countered as a result of me not being able to afford it's cost when it resolves. The two mana stays in my mana pool, and no further cards are exiled from my graveyard.
We feel this alternative rule forces a level of interactivity, and nerfs counters enough, so we are house ruling. I just thought I would share as this is a really elegant house rule compared to banning counters or other similar methods. It also is easily explainable to guests.
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Counter target spell, noting the color and type of mana used to cast the target spell. If Counterspell resolves, the controller of the spell adds the noted type and amount of mana to his or her mana pool.
I'm sure I'll get an infraction for this but this is one of the most absurd posts I have ever read on these forums, and that's saying something. Great job on patting yourself on the back for your horrible idea ("really elegant house rule"). I don't have the time or patience to explain why it's so horrible (it should be self-evident) but please keep your "house rules" to your self.
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"To be the man, you gotta beat the man."
"Stylin' and Profilin', Limo Ridin', and Jet Flyin'!"
Sounds terrible. So what happens when you play spells that say "When you cast?" It doesn't matter if they're countered or not, their ability still goes off.
So if someone casts Artisan of Kozilek, and you counter it, they get a reanimate for free and 9 mana back to do as they please? No thanks.
What about x spells? Well, you still have to choose x when you cast. That has never changed. IF something happens to prevent you from being able to pay for it, it is countered as a result. No payment is made toward the spell. For instance, I cast harvest pyre, declaring x equals 5 (GY has 5 cards), and in response my opponent casts Purify the Grave exiling one card from my graveyard, then harvest pyre is countered as a result of me not being able to afford it's cost when it resolves. The two mana stays in my mana pool, and no further cards are exiled from my graveyard.
With this example, your opponent can't exile a card in response, because the exiling is an additional cost for the spell. It's just like you can't kill the creature in response to your opponent trying to Fling it at you.
your idea of having all costs paid on resolution makes counterspells kinda bad.. "I'll counter your Primeval titan."
"okay, then I'll cast this other primeval titan"
and your idea would also make certain counters pretty much useless, outside of strange situations, mainly remand
There doesn't need to be any ideas for Nerfing Counterspells. WOTC is doing a fine job nerfing them by themselves. Have you seen some of the RTR spoilers? Not to mention Cavern of Souls, Autumn's Veil and numerous other cards printed recently.
Counterspells are only unfun if your deck is too dependent on a small number of cards. Make a better deck.
I'm not trying to be an ass. When my friends and I were new players 15 years ago our decks consisted of 40 white cards plus a Serra Angel or 40 green cards plus a Force of Nature. If you only have one card worth countering then it's easy for counterspell to be overpowered. Make a deck with 40 spells worth countering and then you'll see the limitations of counter-magic.
There doesn't need to be any ideas for Nerfing Counterspells. WOTC is doing a fine job nerfing them by themselves. Have you seen some of the RTR spoilers? Not to mention Cavern of Souls, Autumn's Veil and numerous other cards printed recently.
And all those uncounterable effects are starting to make the game look like yu gi oh. Rather than print a bunch of answers to something, this is a fix for the root of the problem.
@ the remand comment. The removal of mana burn ruined a few cards too.
@ Fallen Angel, under this rule, you could kill a creature in response to fling, and if it was the only one, fling would be countered as a result.
@ Illinest the unfun part of counterspells has always been spending six mana on a cool new card, only to have it countered, and then having ti wait until the next turn to play a card. The sucky part is watching our investment fizzle.
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@ Illinest the unfun part of counterspells has always been spending six mana on a cool new card, only to have it countered, and then having ti wait until the next turn to play a card. The sucky part is watching our investment fizzle.
It's called part of the game. Well, it used to be part of the game. Now it's just a memory of what this game used to be...interesting.
@ Illinest the unfun part of counterspells has always been spending six mana on a cool new card, only to have it countered, and then having ti wait until the next turn to play a card. The sucky part is watching our investment fizzle.
I'll never understand, for the life of me why new players think this way. Why is it that when your craw wurm is mana leaked it's incredibly unfun, but letting you play it and then immediately doomblading it is completely acceptable.
Also, you are aware that counterspells are absolutely abysmal in standard right now, this past weekend had legitimately zero in the top 16.
Also if we're talking casual and not standard right now, apart from FoW, if your deck loses to a reactive counterspell deck your deck is bad and your friend should be beating you.
so Remand now reads 1U: Draw a card?
OP is bad at magic and should feel bad. Stop whining about counterspells and build a deck that can beat it. buy some uncounterable cards. anything but "houseruling" control out of existence.
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A) Play cards that are uncouterable like Thrun the Last Troll.
B) Play Cavern of Souls
C) Play cards with a lower mana cost.
D) Play protection for your high casting cost cards, like Duress or Negate.
D)
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
It's called part of the game. Well, it used to be part of the game. Now it's just a memory of what this game used to be...interesting.
All things in a game are supposed to make things enjoyable for all participants. It's not that I lose to dedicated counter decks (not that losing bothers me,) or counters in general, I am just annoyed by them.
@linvala, doom blades are acceptable because the six mana creature likely brought several smaller creatures into play, gained life, killed something, reanimated another creature. It just isn't a real comparison.
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It would be, however, an interesting idea to implement on a card.
UU
Instant
Counter target spell. Its controller adds mana equal to its mana cost to his or her mana pool. (Mana cost includes color. If a mana symbol has multiple colors, choose one.)
Okay, that's enough people railing on the OP over how bad the idea is.
Let's try to be more constructive than just saying 'lol that's bad' and implying they're a bad player.
All costs to a spell and ability are paid on resolution.
Functionally, this doesn't work. For one big reason: It presumes you could pay the costs at a future point, but provides no way to ensure that happens.
For example, what happens when you cast Wrath of God? Normally you just pay 2WW and move on. Now, instead you just announce the spell. Does your opponent has a response? No, well, pay on resolution... Err, wait. What if you had only 1WW? Do, you reverse the spell? Just put it in the graveyard?
The rules, as current, don't let that happen for a couple of reasons. In order to be able to take an action, you have to legally complete all the steps to that action. Cast a spell? Pay the costs, declare a target, etc. You want those things to happen then and there so people know what is going on, and you can ensure the action was legal to begin with. Otherwise, there's no assurance the person didn't just announce the spell even though it was illegal.
And what happens when it becomes more complicated and involves multiple spells? Or multiple counters? Because, under these rules, the cost for a Counterspell isn't paid until it resolves... How does that work when I start countering your counters?
No, what makes counterspells "unfun" is making them very cheap, omnipresent, and capable of handling any "problem". In short, it's actually more the environment in the broader sense, than the concept of counters themselves. Counters are very necessary to the game, and need to have a presence to keep things balanced. But where the "fit" on the broader picture in comparison to other cards is always subject to some debate and consideration with what else is in the format.
All things in a game are supposed to make things enjoyable for all participants. It's not that I lose to dedicated counter decks (not that losing bothers me,) or counters in general, I am just annoyed by them....
I enjoy thinking, the 'chess' aspect if you will of the game that counters and even removal brings. I don't enjoy sitting back and getting steamrolled by creature after creature and the herp derp tap and swing mentallity of the current standard player's game.
Just because you hate counters and enjoy swinging with creatures unhampered doesn't mean i like that same scenario.
I really like this idea as a reverse mana drain on 1 card. As for making all counterspells this way. Dumb. I guess when i get duressed I should draw a card too. And the only removal should be like beast within?
Counterspells are a 1-for-1 reactionary exchange. Not even close to broken.
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No, what makes counterspells "unfun" is making them very cheap, omnipresent, and capable of handling any "problem". In short, it's actually more the environment in the broader sense, than the concept of counters themselves. Counters are very necessary to the game, and need to have a presence to keep things balanced. But where the "fit" on the broader picture in comparison to other cards is always subject to some debate and consideration with what else is in the format.
One of the wisest things I've read about Magic. The idea that mechanics fluctuate on the same power spectrum as creatures, spells and individual cards is great.
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This is why I started playing magic in the first place. It wasn't PT aspirations just making noobs cry by doing things that are perfectly fair.
To answer the first part of your post, if the player doesn't havr the resources to play card when the card resolved, it would be countered as a result. So a player would cast the spell, pass priority, and if no response, resolve the spell, starting by paying the costs, and then following the spells text.
As to the second part, if the first person casts ad nauseoum, and the second player counters, and the first player counters, and the second player counters one last time, the first player would pay the cost, and the second counter would be countered, then the first counter would resolve, and then all costs would be paid, and ad nauseoum would be counter, the first player would still have all his mana floating.
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All things in a game are supposed to make things enjoyable for all participants. It's not that I lose to dedicated counter decks (not that losing bothers me,) or counters in general, I am just annoyed by them.
@linvala, doom blades are acceptable because the six mana creature likely brought several smaller creatures into play, gained life, killed something, reanimated another creature. It just isn't a real comparison.
Here is the reality of Magic. It CAN'T be enjoyable for all participants. Because somebody, somewhere, is going to HATE something about this game.
If I listed all the things in this game that people here have *****ed about in the short time (1 year) that I've been here, there would be...
NOTHING LEFT TO PLAY.
You don't like Counterspells?
I don't like hexproof, unblockable, sword carrying gnats that get up in your face and there isn't a DAMNED THING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT short of wiping the whole damn board.
Here's a REAL novel concept. How about we go back to the way this game USED to be and have EVERYTHING be viable again.
That way, those who actually like to "play" Magic the way it was intended to be played can play it and everybody else can go play something else.
I am so sick and tired of this "That's not fair" crap and everybody raging because they can't play their pet deck, card, whatever.
For crying out loud. This game used to be so simple. You played the damn cards you were given and you were GRATEFUL to be able to do so because the game was so, oh, I don't know, interesting?
Today, if you're playing standard, it's creature, creature, creature and everything else has gone to hell.
And I get that WotC had to cave in to all the whiny players who didn't like playing against counters, LD, discard and what have you, because at the end of the day, it's all about business and how many dollars they put in their pocket.
But can the old guys have SOMETHING left?
I mean throw us a bone for crying out loud. I'm not asking for Mana Drain or Force of Will to come back, but at least leave us with what WotC has mercifully left us to play with.
Because eventually, and this is why your idea is bad aside from the fact that it makes counters completely worthless under many circumstances, all of the old players will quit this game IF it gets to the point of absurdity that you're suggesting.
If that happens, WotC better hope and pray that the new player base buys enough cards and enters enough tournaments to keep this game going. Otherwise, we all lose.
Counters are fine. Bad ideas are not fine. And I'm sorry, but this is just a bad idea for all the reasons stated and some not stated.
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All costs to a spell and ability are paid on resolution.
So how exactly does this nerf counterspells? Well, lets say a player tapped two forests to add two G to his mana pool. He then spent two G on Grizzly Bear. His opponent counters it. Be cause the spell never resolves, using this rule, he still has GG in his mana pool, and can use it to cast something else.
So doesn't this make counterspells useless? No, not at all. They are still wonderful tools against combo decks, or any deck relying on a specific card to win. This does make them useless in tempo decks however.
What about x spells? Well, you still have to choose x when you cast. That has never changed. IF something happens to prevent you from being able to pay for it, it is countered as a result. No payment is made toward the spell. For instance, I cast harvest pyre, declaring x equals 5 (GY has 5 cards), and in response my opponent casts Purify the Grave exiling one card from my graveyard, then harvest pyre is countered as a result of me not being able to afford it's cost when it resolves. The two mana stays in my mana pool, and no further cards are exiled from my graveyard.
We feel this alternative rule forces a level of interactivity, and nerfs counters enough, so we are house ruling. I just thought I would share as this is a really elegant house rule compared to banning counters or other similar methods. It also is easily explainable to guests.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Counterspells are fine the way they are. If someone doesn't like playing against counterspells they can play a format where they already suck.
It's called Standard.
Counter target spell, noting the color and type of mana used to cast the target spell. If Counterspell resolves, the controller of the spell adds the noted type and amount of mana to his or her mana pool.
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So if someone casts Artisan of Kozilek, and you counter it, they get a reanimate for free and 9 mana back to do as they please? No thanks.
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With this example, your opponent can't exile a card in response, because the exiling is an additional cost for the spell. It's just like you can't kill the creature in response to your opponent trying to Fling it at you.
your idea of having all costs paid on resolution makes counterspells kinda bad.. "I'll counter your Primeval titan."
"okay, then I'll cast this other primeval titan"
and your idea would also make certain counters pretty much useless, outside of strange situations, mainly remand
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=409478
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I'm not trying to be an ass. When my friends and I were new players 15 years ago our decks consisted of 40 white cards plus a Serra Angel or 40 green cards plus a Force of Nature. If you only have one card worth countering then it's easy for counterspell to be overpowered. Make a deck with 40 spells worth countering and then you'll see the limitations of counter-magic.
And all those uncounterable effects are starting to make the game look like yu gi oh. Rather than print a bunch of answers to something, this is a fix for the root of the problem.
@ the remand comment. The removal of mana burn ruined a few cards too.
@ Fallen Angel, under this rule, you could kill a creature in response to fling, and if it was the only one, fling would be countered as a result.
@ Illinest the unfun part of counterspells has always been spending six mana on a cool new card, only to have it countered, and then having ti wait until the next turn to play a card. The sucky part is watching our investment fizzle.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
It's called part of the game. Well, it used to be part of the game. Now it's just a memory of what this game used to be...interesting.
I'll never understand, for the life of me why new players think this way. Why is it that when your craw wurm is mana leaked it's incredibly unfun, but letting you play it and then immediately doomblading it is completely acceptable.
Also, you are aware that counterspells are absolutely abysmal in standard right now, this past weekend had legitimately zero in the top 16.
Also if we're talking casual and not standard right now, apart from FoW, if your deck loses to a reactive counterspell deck your deck is bad and your friend should be beating you.
OP is bad at magic and should feel bad. Stop whining about counterspells and build a deck that can beat it. buy some uncounterable cards. anything but "houseruling" control out of existence.
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GWBUModern Gifts LoamUBWG
UWBStandard Esper ControlBWU
UWEDH Geist of St CrapUW
Proud Cockatrice Regular
B) Play Cavern of Souls
C) Play cards with a lower mana cost.
D) Play protection for your high casting cost cards, like Duress or Negate.
D)
Modern:
Something new every week
Legacy:
Something new everyweek
All things in a game are supposed to make things enjoyable for all participants. It's not that I lose to dedicated counter decks (not that losing bothers me,) or counters in general, I am just annoyed by them.
@linvala, doom blades are acceptable because the six mana creature likely brought several smaller creatures into play, gained life, killed something, reanimated another creature. It just isn't a real comparison.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
It would be, however, an interesting idea to implement on a card.
UU
Instant
Counter target spell. Its controller adds mana equal to its mana cost to his or her mana pool. (Mana cost includes color. If a mana symbol has multiple colors, choose one.)
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Let's try to be more constructive than just saying 'lol that's bad' and implying they're a bad player.
Functionally, this doesn't work. For one big reason: It presumes you could pay the costs at a future point, but provides no way to ensure that happens.
For example, what happens when you cast Wrath of God? Normally you just pay 2WW and move on. Now, instead you just announce the spell. Does your opponent has a response? No, well, pay on resolution... Err, wait. What if you had only 1WW? Do, you reverse the spell? Just put it in the graveyard?
The rules, as current, don't let that happen for a couple of reasons. In order to be able to take an action, you have to legally complete all the steps to that action. Cast a spell? Pay the costs, declare a target, etc. You want those things to happen then and there so people know what is going on, and you can ensure the action was legal to begin with. Otherwise, there's no assurance the person didn't just announce the spell even though it was illegal.
And what happens when it becomes more complicated and involves multiple spells? Or multiple counters? Because, under these rules, the cost for a Counterspell isn't paid until it resolves... How does that work when I start countering your counters?
No, what makes counterspells "unfun" is making them very cheap, omnipresent, and capable of handling any "problem". In short, it's actually more the environment in the broader sense, than the concept of counters themselves. Counters are very necessary to the game, and need to have a presence to keep things balanced. But where the "fit" on the broader picture in comparison to other cards is always subject to some debate and consideration with what else is in the format.
I enjoy thinking, the 'chess' aspect if you will of the game that counters and even removal brings. I don't enjoy sitting back and getting steamrolled by creature after creature and the herp derp tap and swing mentallity of the current standard player's game.
Just because you hate counters and enjoy swinging with creatures unhampered doesn't mean i like that same scenario.
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Counterspells are a 1-for-1 reactionary exchange. Not even close to broken.
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One of the wisest things I've read about Magic. The idea that mechanics fluctuate on the same power spectrum as creatures, spells and individual cards is great.
Thanks for the reply.
To answer the first part of your post, if the player doesn't havr the resources to play card when the card resolved, it would be countered as a result. So a player would cast the spell, pass priority, and if no response, resolve the spell, starting by paying the costs, and then following the spells text.
As to the second part, if the first person casts ad nauseoum, and the second player counters, and the first player counters, and the second player counters one last time, the first player would pay the cost, and the second counter would be countered, then the first counter would resolve, and then all costs would be paid, and ad nauseoum would be counter, the first player would still have all his mana floating.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Here is the reality of Magic. It CAN'T be enjoyable for all participants. Because somebody, somewhere, is going to HATE something about this game.
If I listed all the things in this game that people here have *****ed about in the short time (1 year) that I've been here, there would be...
NOTHING LEFT TO PLAY.
You don't like Counterspells?
I don't like hexproof, unblockable, sword carrying gnats that get up in your face and there isn't a DAMNED THING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT short of wiping the whole damn board.
Here's a REAL novel concept. How about we go back to the way this game USED to be and have EVERYTHING be viable again.
That way, those who actually like to "play" Magic the way it was intended to be played can play it and everybody else can go play something else.
I am so sick and tired of this "That's not fair" crap and everybody raging because they can't play their pet deck, card, whatever.
For crying out loud. This game used to be so simple. You played the damn cards you were given and you were GRATEFUL to be able to do so because the game was so, oh, I don't know, interesting?
Today, if you're playing standard, it's creature, creature, creature and everything else has gone to hell.
And I get that WotC had to cave in to all the whiny players who didn't like playing against counters, LD, discard and what have you, because at the end of the day, it's all about business and how many dollars they put in their pocket.
But can the old guys have SOMETHING left?
I mean throw us a bone for crying out loud. I'm not asking for Mana Drain or Force of Will to come back, but at least leave us with what WotC has mercifully left us to play with.
Because eventually, and this is why your idea is bad aside from the fact that it makes counters completely worthless under many circumstances, all of the old players will quit this game IF it gets to the point of absurdity that you're suggesting.
If that happens, WotC better hope and pray that the new player base buys enough cards and enters enough tournaments to keep this game going. Otherwise, we all lose.
Counters are fine. Bad ideas are not fine. And I'm sorry, but this is just a bad idea for all the reasons stated and some not stated.