I hate blue, I hate it's durdles and overpowered spells (and lately creatures), I don't play it. I'm fine with all the other colors but I don't play blue. Wizards can't balance the colors at all, they keep printing stuff like snapcaster and delver, just when we finally got through with jace.
At my FNM's, I hate waiting for that one match to finish, literally 99% of the time whenever some match goes to time, there's always at least one blue deck, usually both.
Are you talking block? Because up till about a year ago green has been almost unplayable as a stand along color. Before that time, it was elf ball and that was a very fragile deck, so I dont know where you get green has been a power house since 4E. Good support color? Ill give it that, but at times all the colors have been good support colors.
Nobody's referring to a mono-colored deck when they talk about the power level of a color, because if they were, blue would be the weakest by far. Mono blue hasn't been competitive since Urza block. What he's referring to is that green has gotten some of the most powerful creatures in recent memory (Kodama of the North Tree, Tarmogoyf, Green Sun's Zenith, Vengevine, Thrun, Primeval Titan) and that even its weaknesses are being neutralized with cards like Beast Within and Ulvenwald Tracker. Every color is becoming more versatile except for blue, which is having answers taken away from it.
4 Months ago, Delver was on the path to being Cawblade 2.0. Luckily, AVR and M13 have really spiced up the tier 1 decks. We now have very competitive Naya decks (pod and podless), G/R aggro (seems like this evolved into Naya aggro though), other Pod archetypes, Zombies (U/B and R/B). There are also several good tier 1.5 decks that can do well in the hands of players that know the decks.
Then you have decks that aren't that competitive, that people feel have to be b/c of Nostalgia or some other reason. U/W Control is not good right now (in a traditional control deck sense). There are decks that can play like it, like U/W midrange or miracles. The same goes for MBC (every year people see something and scream "OMG X card...can MBC be good now?) and RDW. The decks have been competitive in years past, but "RDW" can't be tier 1 every standard rotation, the same goes for MBC, traditional U/W control and other stuff.
Right now, the standard environment is very creature oriented, even in "control" classified decks. Delver is one reason traditional Control can't really take off; when someone casts delver turn 1 and flips it, they just aim at protecting it. If you go to tapout turn 4 for DoJ and it gets countered, as a control player you are now likely dead. Another reason is all of the ETB creatures there are, and even LTB effects. A card like Huntmaster creates 2 bodies with 1 card, so even casting DoJ isn't gaining any card advantage. Aggro decks can put pressure on the opponent with less cards now than they ever could before.
Got sidetracked there it seems....in short, will blue always be the best color? In Legacy/Vintage - Yes. Unless about 50 cards get banned (all the good blue spells, and then every quick combo). Modern is a bit better at having a balanced color power, but look at the blue spells that are on the banned list compared to other colors. As for standard, it will fluctuate. With Delver, SCM in standard for the next...14 months, and a new Jace coming in October, its hard to say blue won't be one of the best colors.
Every color is becoming more versatile except for blue, which is having answers taken away from it.
thats not really fair to say. they're being taken away in the regard that blue was so versatile that it could pretty much handle anything to some degree. the nature of it is changing to be brought more in line with every other color. just like how red is changing to hopefully compete in ways that are more than LOLOLOL RED ZONE DIRECT DAMAGE. we're stuck in the middle of those changes at the moment as they figure out what works and what doesn't.
when jund was on top it was thread after thread about how weak blue was, now its thread after thread about how weak red is and how powerful blue is. things swing back and forth, this has been design philosophy for years, and its still apparent.
regardless, play what you want to play. theres no reason to blindly stick to a color, or combination of colors, or a certain strategy through everything even when its at its weakest. there isn't some award for loyalty. not every color, and not every strategy, is always going to be viable.
Nobody's referring to a mono-colored deck when they talk about the power level of a color, because if they were, blue would be the weakest by far. Mono blue hasn't been competitive since Urza block. What he's referring to is that green has gotten some of the most powerful creatures in recent memory (Kodama of the North Tree, Tarmogoyf, Green Sun's Zenith, Vengevine, Thrun, Primeval Titan) and that even its weaknesses are being neutralized with cards like Beast Within and Ulvenwald Tracker. Every color is becoming more versatile except for blue, which is having answers taken away from it.
Huh? Mono blue illusions was huge about a year ago taking the SCG circuit by storm, It took a while to hate it out. Lately Mono blue delver has been putting up some solid numbers.
Jace the wallet slayer and Snapcaster trump all of those cards mentioned together!
Mono blue hasn't been competitive since Urza block.
Not sure what you mean exactly because this just isn't true. Maybe a mono list hasn't been *dominant* in a long time, but competitive? Absolutely. Mono-U Faeries and Mono-U Merfolk were both decks in Lorwyn and Mono-U Control was a deck in Time Spiral. All of these decks won States/Regional tournaments.
Everyone knows why blue is too powerful. Its because generic counterspells, instant speed card drawing and manipulating your library, and stealing permanents are blatantly better powers than what the other colors posess. To balance the color wheel, youd have to make what the other colors have more powerful, and thats really not that hard honestly. If green had more hexproof, more ETB dudes, more creatures that recur, or leave tokens behind it would be stronger. Red would need its land destruction element back as a tour de force, creatures should more often have haste, perhaps sting the opponent, etc. Black could have its graveyard mechanic emphasized more again, the return of better hand disruption, creatures that have ETB effects, more pay life to get power effects, recursive dudes. White could have more dominate weenies, more ETB dudes, maybe life gain can become a mechanic that matters more or is attached as a tertiary ability of creatures more often, creatures that leave spirit tokens behind, more color protection creatures, etc.
Everyone knows why blue is too powerful. Its because generic counterspells, instant speed card drawing and manipulating your library, and stealing permanents are blatantly better powers than what the other colors posess. To balance the color wheel, youd have to make what the other colors have more powerful, and thats really not that hard honestly. If green had more hexproof, more ETB dudes, more creatures that recur, or leave tokens behind it would be stronger. Red would need its land destruction element back as a tour de force, creatures should more often have haste, perhaps sting the opponent, etc. Black could have its graveyard mechanic emphasized more again, the return of better hand disruption, creatures that have ETB effects, more pay life to get power effects, recursive dudes. White could have more dominate weenies, more ETB dudes, maybe life gain can become a mechanic that matters more or is attached as a tertiary ability of creatures more often, creatures that leave spirit tokens behind, more color protection creatures, etc.
I love the color blue, but I do not think i should be the best color. Blue obviously has the lions share of abilities that are powerhouse. I dont want blue to have those powers taken away, simply downgraded a bit. I also think the other colors should continually get a boost in power so that in old magic, blue isnt the best, and in new magic blue doesnt continue the mold of being the best.
Yes, and that's for casual, and including all cards from all sets. I think of Blue as the extreme powerhouse when it comes to creature placing, drawing, and countering. I would choose Blue based on three cards Tinker, Ancestral Recall, Force of Will.
Blue was the weakest color in standard before when Zendikar was released, but then went back up during WWK, so it has ebbed within the last 7 years.
Blue wasn't that great until Scars of Mirrodin was released. The prominence of Bloodbraid Elf was single-handedly enough to keep Jace from dominating the metagame.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I'm just going to say that blue will retain dominance in eternal formats, while its power level will vary in Standard and probably Modern.
I love that this thread got necro'd because it's a topic that has, almost literally, been beaten to death. Now I'm contributing to it...
Blue had lost a ton of power over the years and it's main features of draw and filtering/manipulation have been downgraded over past sets. Counterspells have also become weaker more recently. In eternal formats, it's great still. In standard (which this thread was based on due to Delver and SCM) it's not what it used to be.
The only T1 mono color deck is Burn (while not strictly mono color, it more or less is just that). Infect is UG but its basically a green stompy deck by design.
It's similar in Legacy. Most top tier "blue" decks run three colours. The cantrips/filters are very good and help to smooth put draws. However, the cards you actually look for with these are more usually not blue! Blue has one solid threat - Delver. If these decks need boots on the ground, they typically find Goyf, Pyromancer, SFM, Bob, DRS, or whatever. Blue creatures are the exception. If the deck is digging for answers, sometimes they need a counter but as often are looking for removal - S2P, Bolt, AD, etc.
So while many Legacy decks run a lot of blue, a huge part of blues roll in the deck is too dig for non-blue cards as needed. I'm not denying that blue's roll in Legacy is greater than that of any other colour. Rather that this is greatly exaggerated.
I'm just going to say that blue will retain dominance in eternal formats, while its power level will vary in Standard and probably Modern.
The best thing about that is that once Legacy and Vintage are dead and buried the topic can be finally laid to rest.
Wizards has found the appropriate power level for Blue to bring it in line with the other colors.
With stupid mistakes that had to be dealt with being the exception *cough* Treasure Cruise *cough*
The best thing about that is that once Legacy and Vintage are dead and buried the topic can be finally laid to rest.
Legacy will never die! Like Vintage, those who play it love it too much to ever give it up. Unlike Vintage, the card supply and devoted, established player base is vast. Note that by your own admission even Vintage is not yet "dead and buried". Like it or not, Legacy is here to stay.
And there will always be Commander - keeping relevant the older fun cards not considered printable by today's standards.
Odd as it may seem, some folks like to back up their claims rather than spam boards with single word answers.
As it turns out, this is not so simple a question. For one, the answer depends on which format is in question. Second, there is no clear way to isolated each colour's contribution in formats where most top decks are dependant on multiple colors in order to actually be good. Third, to answer this question with certainty would require an element of precognition! Hence dicussion ensues.
Ironically, your comment has prompted a response which begins the fourth page!
One thing I've noticed is that after lots of years of magic, there are four colors that are not allowed to do proactive things at instant speed, and one color that is.
I think expanding the "green gets good flash creatures" color theme more could help out some of the imbalance. Blue can hold up a bunch of mana to counter your creature spell if you cast one, then cast a good blue flash creature if you don't, or cast a good blue draw spell if you don't. Let's at least let BG keep mana up in case you cast an artifact, enchantment, or creature to kill it, then cast a good creature if you don't.
Yes my tears really go out to bgx. Deathrite and decay just weren't enough? I really don't think we need powerful non-blue flash creatures right now. They have plenty of things to do with their mana.
One thing I've noticed is that after lots of years of magic, there are four colors that are not allowed to do proactive things at instant speed, and one color that is.
Counter-spells are reactive, not proactive. Silence, Leyline of Lifeforce, and Aether Flash are examples of proactive spells. All colours have reactive instants - it's a defining property of an instant that it can react to other objects on the stack.
It sounds like maybe you just don't like counter-magic?
At my FNM's, I hate waiting for that one match to finish, literally 99% of the time whenever some match goes to time, there's always at least one blue deck, usually both.
Nobody's referring to a mono-colored deck when they talk about the power level of a color, because if they were, blue would be the weakest by far. Mono blue hasn't been competitive since Urza block. What he's referring to is that green has gotten some of the most powerful creatures in recent memory (Kodama of the North Tree, Tarmogoyf, Green Sun's Zenith, Vengevine, Thrun, Primeval Titan) and that even its weaknesses are being neutralized with cards like Beast Within and Ulvenwald Tracker. Every color is becoming more versatile except for blue, which is having answers taken away from it.
Then you have decks that aren't that competitive, that people feel have to be b/c of Nostalgia or some other reason. U/W Control is not good right now (in a traditional control deck sense). There are decks that can play like it, like U/W midrange or miracles. The same goes for MBC (every year people see something and scream "OMG X card...can MBC be good now?) and RDW. The decks have been competitive in years past, but "RDW" can't be tier 1 every standard rotation, the same goes for MBC, traditional U/W control and other stuff.
Right now, the standard environment is very creature oriented, even in "control" classified decks. Delver is one reason traditional Control can't really take off; when someone casts delver turn 1 and flips it, they just aim at protecting it. If you go to tapout turn 4 for DoJ and it gets countered, as a control player you are now likely dead. Another reason is all of the ETB creatures there are, and even LTB effects. A card like Huntmaster creates 2 bodies with 1 card, so even casting DoJ isn't gaining any card advantage. Aggro decks can put pressure on the opponent with less cards now than they ever could before.
Got sidetracked there it seems....in short, will blue always be the best color? In Legacy/Vintage - Yes. Unless about 50 cards get banned (all the good blue spells, and then every quick combo). Modern is a bit better at having a balanced color power, but look at the blue spells that are on the banned list compared to other colors. As for standard, it will fluctuate. With Delver, SCM in standard for the next...14 months, and a new Jace coming in October, its hard to say blue won't be one of the best colors.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
thats not really fair to say. they're being taken away in the regard that blue was so versatile that it could pretty much handle anything to some degree. the nature of it is changing to be brought more in line with every other color. just like how red is changing to hopefully compete in ways that are more than LOLOLOL RED ZONE DIRECT DAMAGE. we're stuck in the middle of those changes at the moment as they figure out what works and what doesn't.
when jund was on top it was thread after thread about how weak blue was, now its thread after thread about how weak red is and how powerful blue is. things swing back and forth, this has been design philosophy for years, and its still apparent.
regardless, play what you want to play. theres no reason to blindly stick to a color, or combination of colors, or a certain strategy through everything even when its at its weakest. there isn't some award for loyalty. not every color, and not every strategy, is always going to be viable.
Huh? Mono blue illusions was huge about a year ago taking the SCG circuit by storm, It took a while to hate it out. Lately Mono blue delver has been putting up some solid numbers.
Jace the wallet slayer and Snapcaster trump all of those cards mentioned together!
Not sure what you mean exactly because this just isn't true. Maybe a mono list hasn't been *dominant* in a long time, but competitive? Absolutely. Mono-U Faeries and Mono-U Merfolk were both decks in Lorwyn and Mono-U Control was a deck in Time Spiral. All of these decks won States/Regional tournaments.
In other words, Vintage or Legacy.
Proud member of Fires Rf Salvation
Currently Playing:
BPack RatB
Modern:
WURRWU ControlRUW
Legacy:
UHigh TideU
UGTurbo EldraziGU
EDH:
RWURuhan Planeswalker ControlUWR
RGBProssh, Skyraider of KherBGR
That is a dumb question. Red is the best color.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
QFT. Red is the control color for the intelligent mage.
Who needs counterspells when you have bolts? That gets rid of board presence and wins games...
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
Blue wasn't that great until Scars of Mirrodin was released. The prominence of Bloodbraid Elf was single-handedly enough to keep Jace from dominating the metagame.
I'm just going to say that blue will retain dominance in eternal formats, while its power level will vary in Standard and probably Modern.
Cōnservātum album delenda est.
I love that this thread got necro'd because it's a topic that has, almost literally, been beaten to death. Now I'm contributing to it...
Blue had lost a ton of power over the years and it's main features of draw and filtering/manipulation have been downgraded over past sets. Counterspells have also become weaker more recently. In eternal formats, it's great still. In standard (which this thread was based on due to Delver and SCM) it's not what it used to be.
It's similar in Legacy. Most top tier "blue" decks run three colours. The cantrips/filters are very good and help to smooth put draws. However, the cards you actually look for with these are more usually not blue! Blue has one solid threat - Delver. If these decks need boots on the ground, they typically find Goyf, Pyromancer, SFM, Bob, DRS, or whatever. Blue creatures are the exception. If the deck is digging for answers, sometimes they need a counter but as often are looking for removal - S2P, Bolt, AD, etc.
So while many Legacy decks run a lot of blue, a huge part of blues roll in the deck is too dig for non-blue cards as needed. I'm not denying that blue's roll in Legacy is greater than that of any other colour. Rather that this is greatly exaggerated.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
The best thing about that is that once Legacy and Vintage are dead and buried the topic can be finally laid to rest.
Wizards has found the appropriate power level for Blue to bring it in line with the other colors.
With stupid mistakes that had to be dealt with being the exception *cough* Treasure Cruise *cough*
Legacy will never die! Like Vintage, those who play it love it too much to ever give it up. Unlike Vintage, the card supply and devoted, established player base is vast. Note that by your own admission even Vintage is not yet "dead and buried". Like it or not, Legacy is here to stay.
And there will always be Commander - keeping relevant the older fun cards not considered printable by today's standards.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
YES.
/end thread?
Odd as it may seem, some folks like to back up their claims rather than spam boards with single word answers.
As it turns out, this is not so simple a question. For one, the answer depends on which format is in question. Second, there is no clear way to isolated each colour's contribution in formats where most top decks are dependant on multiple colors in order to actually be good. Third, to answer this question with certainty would require an element of precognition! Hence dicussion ensues.
Ironically, your comment has prompted a response which begins the fourth page!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I think expanding the "green gets good flash creatures" color theme more could help out some of the imbalance. Blue can hold up a bunch of mana to counter your creature spell if you cast one, then cast a good blue flash creature if you don't, or cast a good blue draw spell if you don't. Let's at least let BG keep mana up in case you cast an artifact, enchantment, or creature to kill it, then cast a good creature if you don't.
It sounds like maybe you just don't like counter-magic?
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats