In 2005, Mark Rosewater wrote an article called "The Troubled One," about blue's dominance in just about every form of Magic and what philosophical things he wanted to change and do something about it.
Seven years ago. Seven years. And blue is what, stronger now than it was then?
Is there any point in holding out for a Standard season that isn't ruled by blue? Or should fans of any other color just give up?
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In 2005, Mark Rosewater wrote an article called "The Troubled One," about blue's dominance in just about every form of Magic and what philosophical things he wanted to change and do something about it.
Seven years ago. Seven years. And blue is what, stronger now than it was then?
Is there any point in holding out for a Standard season that isn't ruled by blue? Or should fans of any other color just give up?
Blue was the weakest color in standard before when Zendikar was released, but then went back up during WWK, so it has ebbed within the last 7 years.
In 2005, Mark Rosewater wrote an article called "The Troubled One," about blue's dominance in just about every form of Magic and what philosophical things he wanted to change and do something about it.
Seven years ago. Seven years. And blue is what, stronger now than it was then?
Is there any point in holding out for a Standard season that isn't ruled by blue? Or should fans of any other color just give up?
Yeah, I definitely feel the frustration, too. Most of R&D really seem to enjoy blue, and it has clearly been the favored color throughout Magic's history. There are definitely times when blue hasn't been the top color in Standard, but those times seem to be short lived compared to the times it has been the best. For whatever reason, I honestly don't think they want it to change from this pattern, though. Your favorite colors will likely get their time in the spotlight, but blue will probably not be far behind if 19 years of history has shown us anything.
Yeah, I definitely feel the frustration, too. Most of R&D really seem to enjoy blue, and it has clearly been the favored color throughout Magic's history.
I think part of the reason that it's so difficult is that Blue has been so strong for so long now, that perceptions have become warped, both for WotC and for a large portion of Magic players. Blue being very strong feels "normal", and when Blue isn't the best color, even though it may be perfectly fine, it feels "weak" because everyone is so used to it's power level being higher. This naturally leads to Blue continuing to be strong and also to "pushed" Blue cards being completely bonkers.
@Magickware99: Pretty much. Mana Leak is competitive, and then Cancel is laughed at. There's a difference of U. Card advantage, specifically drawing, is like that, too.
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For what it's worth blue doesn't even come close to anything that could be considered "dominating" Modern.
I hope it stays that way. Playing against Island-Go is painfully boring. Waiting 20 minutes before my opponent plays High TidePalinchron is miserable, an agonizing 4 minutes every time I play a card while he "thinks" about countering it, and every time he wastes the clock deciding what to put back with Brainstorm. Even if he can't win he can still snatch a draw. Either way it is the antithesis of fun.
If blue has to "think" to outplay the opponent, let them figure out the right ratio of Negate/Essence Scatter to put in their deck.
I hope it stays that way. Playing against Island-Go is painfully boring. Waiting 20 minutes before my opponent plays High TidePalinchron is miserable, an agonizing 4 minutes every time I play a card while he "thinks" about countering it, and every time he wastes the clock deciding what to put back with Brainstorm. Even if he can't win he can still snatch a draw. Either way it is the antithesis of fun.
If blue has to "think" to outplay the opponent, let them figure out the right ratio of Negate/Essence Scatter to put in their deck.
That's ridiculous, saying one archetype has a right to exist in a tournament setting and another shouldn't show up in any capacity is pretty hypocritical. Combo and control decks are just as much a part of Magic as are aggro decks, especially in a format Wizards is trying to push as a "legacy alternative" that they can more easily regulate. There will be people who say Wizards is trying to cater to the aggro players by aggressively banning control cards and frankly I agree with them. When someone first starts playing mtg, what colors are they usually drawn to? My guess is, in order, green, red, white, black and blue. Why is blue at the bottom? Because it doesn't have hueg d00dz to plop down and swing sideways, it's not a straightforward color for them to just "get." So what does Wizards do? They try to make some blue cards that are similar to cards in other colors and some times they go too far, like with delver. Blue as a color has caught the most flak from the more casual player base and I am getting a little tired of opening up Magic General and seeing threads titled "(Insert blue card) a mistake/too OP/killing the game?" Some colors are better than others and it is unfortunate that most of the fundamental elements of MTG are covered by one color most of the time, especially in eternal formats, but incessantly stating "I hate control :mad:" is not going to fix anything. I guess complainers are going to complain no matter what so there is really no use complaining about them.
But why should blue get all the hate? For the past couple of standard seasons I never once saw anyone complain that white got to answer pretty much anything with either catch-all answers or hosers that basically read target black or reddeck loses the game. People forget that it wasn't just Big Bad Jace that made caw-blade what it was, it was a perfect storm involving quite a lot of other cards but it's all too easy to point at Jace 2 and scream about how he ruined the game because he's blue.
Edit: Also I never understood why players, especially "pro" players, need so long to decide whether to counter a spell or not. Same goes for sensei's divining top activations.
Edit 2: Furthermore, Jace 2 continued to be not such a great card until Shards block rotated out of standard. It wasn't like Jace 2 was printed and then he was instantly the second coming of blue, BBE kept him (and most blue decks) in check for a long time.
Yes. Blue's slice of the color pie, and the whole design philosophy behind blue consistently lead to some of the most powerful cards in the game. Efficient countering and card draw are two of the most powerful effects in the game, and on top of that blue is usually given spells whose power comes mostly from their flexibility and ability to be good in any situation.
Also, R&D seems to really like blue, and enjoys giving it the most powerful cards.
I hope it stays that way. Playing against Island-Go is painfully boring. Waiting 20 minutes before my opponent plays High TidePalinchron is miserable, an agonizing 4 minutes every time I play a card while he "thinks" about countering it, and every time he wastes the clock deciding what to put back with Brainstorm. Even if he can't win he can still snatch a draw. Either way it is the antithesis of fun.
If blue has to "think" to outplay the opponent, let them figure out the right ratio of Negate/Essence Scatter to put in their deck.
Most decks can stall in some fashion - the last PTQ I went to, a guy playing Jund received a game loss after his third or fourth warning for slow play. I was watching when he received the loss - it was definitely warranted.
As a player who prefers control, the biggest draw to counter magic is that you can answer Geist, a sword, or a titan with it effectively. I think the biggest problem isn't necessarily the power level of countermagic, it's that creatures have been pushed so much to make it a necessity.
The hyper efficient creatures and equipment we've been getting require early game answers - however, most of those answers are awful against a portion of those early, hyper-efficient threats.
It's way too easy to make a bunch of answer cards dead at this point - it's pointless to run answers if they're less versatile and efficient than the threats, as they can't even win the game on their own. I'd much rather crash Kamigawa-esque dudes into each other for 10+ turns and trade removal spells than give up to an early Geist with a hand full of removal and no images in sight.
That's ridiculous, saying one archetype has a right to exist in a tournament setting and another shouldn't show up in any capacity is pretty hypocritical. Combo and control decks are just as much a part of Magic as are aggro decks, especially in a format Wizards is trying to push as a "legacy alternative" that they can more easily regulate. There will be people who say Wizards is trying to cater to the aggro players by aggressively banning control cards and frankly I agree with them. When someone first starts playing mtg, what colors are they usually drawn to? My guess is, in order, green, red, white, black and blue. Why is blue at the bottom? Because it doesn't have hueg d00dz to plop down and swing sideways, it's not a straightforward color for them to just "get." So what does Wizards do? They try to make some blue cards that are similar to cards in other colors and some times they go too far, like with delver. Blue as a color has caught the most flak from the more casual player base and I am getting a little tired of opening up Magic General and seeing threads titled "(Insert blue card) a mistake/too OP/killing the game?" Some colors are better than others and it is unfortunate that most of the fundamental elements of MTG are covered by one color most of the time, especially in eternal formats, but incessantly stating "I hate control :mad:" is not going to fix anything. I guess complainers are going to complain no matter what so there is really no use complaining about them.
But why should blue get all the hate? For the past couple of standard seasons I never once saw anyone complain that white got to answer pretty much anything with either catch-all answers or hosers that basically read target black or reddeck loses the game. People forget that it wasn't just Big Bad Jace that made caw-blade what it was, it was a perfect storm involving quite a lot of other cards but it's all too easy to point at Jace 2 and scream about how he ruined the game because he's blue.
Edit: Also I never understood why players, especially "pro" players, need so long to decide whether to counter a spell or not. Same goes for sensei's divining top activations.
Edit 2: Furthermore, Jace 2 continued to be not such a great card until Shards block rotated out of standard. It wasn't like Jace 2 was printed and then he was instantly the second coming of blue, BBE kept him (and most blue decks) in check for a long time.
Anyone who wants blue to look like it does in Legacy didn't watch SCG Buffalo the other day. Modern very specifically doesn't want to become that kind of format. I have no issue with combo (which is a different subject). Combos are a thing of beauty the first 20 times you see them, and have a right to stay even after they lose their awe. But I agree with Wizards fighting against consistent 3 turn wins precisely because they don't want another format where you need to run Force of Will to survive.
My problem with blue is very specifically its tendency for people to stall. I'm not talking play cards so your opponent doesn't kill you stall, I'm talking obscenely long decisions to continue the game. Even with pro players. As for new players:
My guess is, in order, green, red, white, black and blue. Why is blue at the bottom? Because it doesn't have hueg d00dz to plop down and swing sideways
You haven't seen the look of utter glee on new players' faces when they run 40counters.dek as they deny their opponent every move they make. It seems like it's the second deck they make after they see the "pro players" doing it.
But why should blue get all the hate? For the past couple of standard seasons I never once saw anyone complain that white got to answer pretty much anything
I am also surprised at how much of the color pie white has access to, but I can't remember the last time I saw a tournament deck with 4 Oblivion Ring
@Magickware99: Pretty much. Mana Leak is competitive, and then Cancel is laughed at. There's a difference of U. Card advantage, specifically drawing, is like that, too.
One of blue's integral parts since alpha has been drawing more cards. It's inherently better overall than pump, life gain, direct damage and disruption(the other 4 colors). It should be made evergreen in all colors in some form or fashion. Looting in red and "draw lands/creatures" in green is a nice start. It's going to take awhile to balance 20 years of game in the other direction.
It's also very telling that design and development at WotC think playing instants and sorceries in blue is a "drawback"(see Delver and Talrand).
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
For what it's worth blue doesn't even come close to anything that could be considered "dominating" Modern.
Paired with other colors its the best. And no one runs mono color decks in modern. American delver is tearing up the top eight right now. And blue should be the best a color based on knowlage would always be superior
If you're talking about the entire card pool, Blue will always be the strongest colour. Nothing will ever be printed that can compete with Ancestral Recall and Time Walk.
Paired with other colors its the best. And no one runs mono color decks in modern. American delver is tearing up the top eight right now. And blue should be the best a color based on knowlage would always be superior
In case you didn't know, blue is the "support" color and should be better when combined with others.
I find it amusing all the people who want the other colors to have blue's abilities like card draw.
But if I were to say, "Fine, let blue have big creatures, burn, discard and wrath effects along with artifact and creature removal" you'd all say I was nuts and have a fit.
Why does blue have to be driven into the ground but all the other colors get buffed up AND get blue's abilities to boot.
The hypocrisy in this argument is laughable.
The game was designed with each color having certain abilities and characteristics. This was done by Richard Garfield long before he would ever realize how powerful each of these abilities would or wouldn't be.
Life gain? - Sucks
Big creatures? - With cheap removal, sucks
Burn? - Eventually runs out of steam.
Discard? - Pretty good but late game doesn't matter much.
But white's cleansing and blue's card draw, bounce and counter magic are powerful effects with card draw being the most important of all of them.
In short...he who has more cards wins.
Last night I played MBC and thanks to a resolved Griselbrand locked down the game. Not so much because I had a 7/7 lifelink flier but because I had a hand full of cards while my opponent was top decking.
Blue got the best stuff from day one. It is what it is.
Wanting to take that away from blue or nerf it to the point where it's useless is essentially wanting to change the game of Magic to something else. And wanting to give the other colors blue's abilities without giving blue the same in return (big creatures, burn, wrath, removal, discard) is pure prejudice and hate towards the color and not even close to fair.
If you want all the colors to be equal, fine, let them be equal.
But the "I hate blue, let's kill it" crap is getting very old. I for one am tired of it. And yes, I'm predominantly a blue player. That I had to play MBC last night to play a competitive control deck, IMO, is a sad state of affairs.
And what's even sadder is that this "Blue is OP" crap is going to go on until this game is a memory and nothing else.
I would prefer that instead of everyone neutering blue, the other colours get some better cards. Everyone should be playing good cards, not bad cards.
I would rather red for example, get better burn spells and aggro creatures, rather than 'blue abilities' like card draw and looting. I don't understand why R&D think the way to improve colours is to make them more like blue - it is almost as if they aren't allowed to print more powerful versions of current cards (for example, red decks would be very pwoerful if you added lightning bolt and something like blistering firecat).
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Soryy Steve, (and you know Ima blue player) but I disagree. Blue just shouldnt be the best color because it,"is what it is." Thats terrible, so change it, because change is warranted. When Garfield created the game, it took a long time to figure out card drawing, specifically instant speed card drawing would be too powerful, espcially moreso coupled with instant speed library manipulation
Technically, those things have to change. Other colors can get a bump, but if we say they cant have any of blues powers, fine. So give more creatures/cards of other colors more ETB effects, more recursive power, and more overall resilience.
Id like to see a more level playing field honestly. Blue should still maintain its identity, and still see some powering down, but if its future is to be support, then it should have some of its staple powers at a reasonable power level.
So, to conclude, no blue should not be the best color just because it used to be, or because the original designers failed to understand countermagic, library manipulation and card drawing were mechanically better than all the other colors powers. Change it. Have a better magic.
I agree with most of what you said there, but I wanted to pick up on this point. Blue does have big creatures (see Delver), wrath effects (even if rarely), and plenty of artifactandcreature removal.
I am predominantly a blue player, and I'm getting fed up with all the moaning about blue being overpowered and blue players being elitist jerks. If it weren't for Delver I doubt people would be as bothered about blue.
So what you are saying is that if blue wasn't the best colour, people wouldn't complain so much?:-/
In regards to the main question, just by reading this thread you can see how a substantial preportion of the playerbase has associated blue with the smart colour (you really would not have believed the whining for the three months that blue was not the best colour when Zendikar was released), I don't think that they ever will intentionally bring blue down to the level of the rest of the colours.
I am predominantly a blue player, and I'm getting fed up with all the moaning about blue being overpowered and blue players being elitist jerks. If it weren't for Delver I doubt people would be as bothered about blue.
Blue getting overpowered cards isn't something new.
Blue mages telling everyone how they "out thought you" isn't new. Both of these issues are largely true. Maybe the second one doesn't apply to you, but don't delude yourself that as a blue player, you keep some very annoying and self-aggrandizing company.
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Seven years ago. Seven years. And blue is what, stronger now than it was then?
Is there any point in holding out for a Standard season that isn't ruled by blue? Or should fans of any other color just give up?
Blue was the weakest color in standard before when Zendikar was released, but then went back up during WWK, so it has ebbed within the last 7 years.
Yeah, I definitely feel the frustration, too. Most of R&D really seem to enjoy blue, and it has clearly been the favored color throughout Magic's history. There are definitely times when blue hasn't been the top color in Standard, but those times seem to be short lived compared to the times it has been the best. For whatever reason, I honestly don't think they want it to change from this pattern, though. Your favorite colors will likely get their time in the spotlight, but blue will probably not be far behind if 19 years of history has shown us anything.
Faeries pretty much dominated Lorwyn/Shadowmoor with Vendilion Clique, Cryptic Command, and Sower of Temptation alongside Bitterblossom.
Blue then became assimilated into 4color control during Shards of Alara.
Then blue was one of the weaker colors in part of a set until Jace, The Mind Scultpor was printed.
Not much ebb
I think part of the reason that it's so difficult is that Blue has been so strong for so long now, that perceptions have become warped, both for WotC and for a large portion of Magic players. Blue being very strong feels "normal", and when Blue isn't the best color, even though it may be perfectly fine, it feels "weak" because everyone is so used to it's power level being higher. This naturally leads to Blue continuing to be strong and also to "pushed" Blue cards being completely bonkers.
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I hope it stays that way. Playing against Island-Go is painfully boring. Waiting 20 minutes before my opponent plays High Tide Palinchron is miserable, an agonizing 4 minutes every time I play a card while he "thinks" about countering it, and every time he wastes the clock deciding what to put back with Brainstorm. Even if he can't win he can still snatch a draw. Either way it is the antithesis of fun.
If blue has to "think" to outplay the opponent, let them figure out the right ratio of Negate/Essence Scatter to put in their deck.
Also, most blue mages are whiners with an exaggerated view of their own intelligence. It doesn't help that R&D panders to that.
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That's ridiculous, saying one archetype has a right to exist in a tournament setting and another shouldn't show up in any capacity is pretty hypocritical. Combo and control decks are just as much a part of Magic as are aggro decks, especially in a format Wizards is trying to push as a "legacy alternative" that they can more easily regulate. There will be people who say Wizards is trying to cater to the aggro players by aggressively banning control cards and frankly I agree with them. When someone first starts playing mtg, what colors are they usually drawn to? My guess is, in order, green, red, white, black and blue. Why is blue at the bottom? Because it doesn't have hueg d00dz to plop down and swing sideways, it's not a straightforward color for them to just "get." So what does Wizards do? They try to make some blue cards that are similar to cards in other colors and some times they go too far, like with delver. Blue as a color has caught the most flak from the more casual player base and I am getting a little tired of opening up Magic General and seeing threads titled "(Insert blue card) a mistake/too OP/killing the game?" Some colors are better than others and it is unfortunate that most of the fundamental elements of MTG are covered by one color most of the time, especially in eternal formats, but incessantly stating "I hate control :mad:" is not going to fix anything. I guess complainers are going to complain no matter what so there is really no use complaining about them.
But why should blue get all the hate? For the past couple of standard seasons I never once saw anyone complain that white got to answer pretty much anything with either catch-all answers or hosers that basically read target black or red deck loses the game. People forget that it wasn't just Big Bad Jace that made caw-blade what it was, it was a perfect storm involving quite a lot of other cards but it's all too easy to point at Jace 2 and scream about how he ruined the game because he's blue.
Edit: Also I never understood why players, especially "pro" players, need so long to decide whether to counter a spell or not. Same goes for sensei's divining top activations.
Edit 2: Furthermore, Jace 2 continued to be not such a great card until Shards block rotated out of standard. It wasn't like Jace 2 was printed and then he was instantly the second coming of blue, BBE kept him (and most blue decks) in check for a long time.
Also, R&D seems to really like blue, and enjoys giving it the most powerful cards.
Most decks can stall in some fashion - the last PTQ I went to, a guy playing Jund received a game loss after his third or fourth warning for slow play. I was watching when he received the loss - it was definitely warranted.
As a player who prefers control, the biggest draw to counter magic is that you can answer Geist, a sword, or a titan with it effectively. I think the biggest problem isn't necessarily the power level of countermagic, it's that creatures have been pushed so much to make it a necessity.
The hyper efficient creatures and equipment we've been getting require early game answers - however, most of those answers are awful against a portion of those early, hyper-efficient threats.
It's way too easy to make a bunch of answer cards dead at this point - it's pointless to run answers if they're less versatile and efficient than the threats, as they can't even win the game on their own. I'd much rather crash Kamigawa-esque dudes into each other for 10+ turns and trade removal spells than give up to an early Geist with a hand full of removal and no images in sight.
Anyone who wants blue to look like it does in Legacy didn't watch SCG Buffalo the other day. Modern very specifically doesn't want to become that kind of format. I have no issue with combo (which is a different subject). Combos are a thing of beauty the first 20 times you see them, and have a right to stay even after they lose their awe. But I agree with Wizards fighting against consistent 3 turn wins precisely because they don't want another format where you need to run Force of Will to survive.
My problem with blue is very specifically its tendency for people to stall. I'm not talking play cards so your opponent doesn't kill you stall, I'm talking obscenely long decisions to continue the game. Even with pro players. As for new players:
You haven't seen the look of utter glee on new players' faces when they run 40counters.dek as they deny their opponent every move they make. It seems like it's the second deck they make after they see the "pro players" doing it.
I am also surprised at how much of the color pie white has access to, but I can't remember the last time I saw a tournament deck with 4 Oblivion Ring
One of blue's integral parts since alpha has been drawing more cards. It's inherently better overall than pump, life gain, direct damage and disruption(the other 4 colors). It should be made evergreen in all colors in some form or fashion. Looting in red and "draw lands/creatures" in green is a nice start. It's going to take awhile to balance 20 years of game in the other direction.
It's also very telling that design and development at WotC think playing instants and sorceries in blue is a "drawback"(see Delver and Talrand).
Paired with other colors its the best. And no one runs mono color decks in modern. American delver is tearing up the top eight right now. And blue should be the best a color based on knowlage would always be superior
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
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In case you didn't know, blue is the "support" color and should be better when combined with others.
Other formats, it waxes and wanes.
Wasn't there a recent thread where someone was complaining about white being able to do everything and was the strongest color?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
But if I were to say, "Fine, let blue have big creatures, burn, discard and wrath effects along with artifact and creature removal" you'd all say I was nuts and have a fit.
Why does blue have to be driven into the ground but all the other colors get buffed up AND get blue's abilities to boot.
The hypocrisy in this argument is laughable.
The game was designed with each color having certain abilities and characteristics. This was done by Richard Garfield long before he would ever realize how powerful each of these abilities would or wouldn't be.
Life gain? - Sucks
Big creatures? - With cheap removal, sucks
Burn? - Eventually runs out of steam.
Discard? - Pretty good but late game doesn't matter much.
But white's cleansing and blue's card draw, bounce and counter magic are powerful effects with card draw being the most important of all of them.
In short...he who has more cards wins.
Last night I played MBC and thanks to a resolved Griselbrand locked down the game. Not so much because I had a 7/7 lifelink flier but because I had a hand full of cards while my opponent was top decking.
Blue got the best stuff from day one. It is what it is.
Wanting to take that away from blue or nerf it to the point where it's useless is essentially wanting to change the game of Magic to something else. And wanting to give the other colors blue's abilities without giving blue the same in return (big creatures, burn, wrath, removal, discard) is pure prejudice and hate towards the color and not even close to fair.
If you want all the colors to be equal, fine, let them be equal.
But the "I hate blue, let's kill it" crap is getting very old. I for one am tired of it. And yes, I'm predominantly a blue player. That I had to play MBC last night to play a competitive control deck, IMO, is a sad state of affairs.
And what's even sadder is that this "Blue is OP" crap is going to go on until this game is a memory and nothing else.
Thank God for Vintage.
I would prefer that instead of everyone neutering blue, the other colours get some better cards. Everyone should be playing good cards, not bad cards.
I would rather red for example, get better burn spells and aggro creatures, rather than 'blue abilities' like card draw and looting. I don't understand why R&D think the way to improve colours is to make them more like blue - it is almost as if they aren't allowed to print more powerful versions of current cards (for example, red decks would be very pwoerful if you added lightning bolt and something like blistering firecat).
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Technically, those things have to change. Other colors can get a bump, but if we say they cant have any of blues powers, fine. So give more creatures/cards of other colors more ETB effects, more recursive power, and more overall resilience.
Id like to see a more level playing field honestly. Blue should still maintain its identity, and still see some powering down, but if its future is to be support, then it should have some of its staple powers at a reasonable power level.
So, to conclude, no blue should not be the best color just because it used to be, or because the original designers failed to understand countermagic, library manipulation and card drawing were mechanically better than all the other colors powers. Change it. Have a better magic.
So what you are saying is that if blue wasn't the best colour, people wouldn't complain so much?:-/
In regards to the main question, just by reading this thread you can see how a substantial preportion of the playerbase has associated blue with the smart colour (you really would not have believed the whining for the three months that blue was not the best colour when Zendikar was released), I don't think that they ever will intentionally bring blue down to the level of the rest of the colours.
Blue mages telling everyone how they "out thought you" isn't new. Both of these issues are largely true. Maybe the second one doesn't apply to you, but don't delude yourself that as a blue player, you keep some very annoying and self-aggrandizing company.
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