Reprinting Dark Confidant

  • #51
    Quote from asw122
    I still can't see them going below $20. Where the M10 duals do indeed see EDH use as well as standard, Shocks see play in every format where they're legal (even if they're only budget alpha duals in legacy). I doubt that they'd see much of a drop post standard because the EDH community is growing all the time and people want them for their EDH decks.


    I see them settling below 20 but not before they rotate out of Standard. Doubling the stock in existence has to do something to the price no matter how good the card is.
    L1 Judge

  • #52
    Quote from asw122
    Uh, I don't think you read that post right.

    That post was talking Scars of Mirrodin Duals (ie copperline gorge) vs M10 duals (Rootbound Crag), not M10 dual vs Shock. That's not even an argument.


    Oops! Sorry
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  • #53
    Quote from Artificer Andy
    Considering that both times an Invitational card has seen a Standard legal reprint it's received new art, I assume the same will happen for Bob. (I personally hate the Bob art and much prefer the old Jens art to the M12 one.)


    Not so for Avalanche Riders and Shadowmage Infiltrator.

    I think if it's reprinted in a core set, then it has the possibility of keeping it's art, just like many core set reprints like Nantuko Shade etc. It would have different art if reprinted in an expansion obviously. I really like the Bob art btw.
  • #54
    You missed on in Voidmage Prodigy either way the timeshifted cards should not be used as a basis for this as part of their gimmick was to have the old cards return with the old style card frame to highlight that they were different.

    Meddling mage was the first Invitational card to get reprinted with different art back in Alara reborn and it created another drama bomb because it did not have pikula's face any where near it.


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  • #55
    Quote from MisterMind
    I see them settling below 20 but not before they rotate out of Standard. Doubling the stock in existence has to do something to the price no matter how good the card is.


    I think the key thing will be which land we are talking about.

    For instance, right now, Sacred Foundry is 13.99GBP at the site I normally use, Watery Grave is 19.99, where Hallowed Fountain is 29.99.

    I can't see much room for movement in Sacred Foundry. I reckon grave will settle around 15 and fountain at around 22.
    Rules Adviser
  • #56
    New art is a good play on the part of Wizards. It helps move cards to people who already have copies but like the newer art.
    Why would anyone complain about new art whether or not they like it less than the original? New art is an alternative. More choices are good.
  • #57
    In regards to the grammar issues (you all know who you are):
    • There is a distinct difference between "dual" and "duel"
    • BUT
    • You understood what the person meant by "duel" in the context

    If you did understand, don't defend your self with "but it's just proper grammar!" Stop acting like a child if you want to pretend to be an adult. If you feel like being a smart ass with the defense "well I didn't understand them, lands don't fight!" In that event, you might want to get off the internet; it's my opinion that you're not smart enough to use it.

    Quote from GouGou
    But Solemn Simulacrum is not a format breaking card... BoB and Goyf are too good to be in standard, BoB creates you extra CA every turn...


    In regards to this, you're correct for the wrong reasons. Bob is format breaking because:
    • People build around him
    • He's a 2/1 for 2
    • His cost is 1B, not BB
    • He generates card advantage on turn 3 till managed
    L2
    Lapsed Rules Adviser Rolleyes
  • #58
    i dont want to see him in t2 , i can remember him doing sick stuff in rats back in the days
    Stop saying this goes in my EDH to every new spoiled card
  • #59
    Quote from Dr.Krieg
    i dont want to see him in t2 , i can remember him doing sick stuff in rats back in the days


    Rats? As in the creature type rat? I can't imagine that being an issue what with us only having 1 rat that will be in with RTR.
    Rules Adviser
  • #60
    Quote from MisterMind
    I see them settling below 20 but not before they rotate out of Standard. Doubling the stock in existence has to do something to the price no matter how good the card is.


    Not necessarily. By re-introducing the card to Standard, WOTC is also creating a significant spike to demand as well as supply. For instance, Solemn Simulacrum was a $6 card; then, it got reprinted in M12 (and Commander), and spiked to $10-$12 for a while due to seeing play as a 4-of in ramp and control archetypes.

    Assuming shocklands do get reprinted, something like Hallowed Fountain or Stomping Ground will almost certainly hold steady (or even go up!) in the short term due the continued presence of aggressive UW and RG archetypes in the format. In fact, given how well shocks synergize with the standard-legal checklands (Core set and INN), I would expect a lot of ambitious mana bases in next year's Standard and most if not all of the shocks to hold their value.
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  • #61
    Quote from Infallible
    Just because we're going back to Rav doesn't mean we're going to see any old power cards from Ravnica. We're not even guaranteed to get duels.


    Obviously the statement was just speculation, but I can't really see any reason not to. Wizards said they want Modern to be accessible without making a down payment on a car to be able to have a competitive deck. A very easy way they can do this is to reprint the shock lands and Dark Confidant along with others, but those are the main ones.
  • #62
    I cannot see reprinted Shocklands maintaining more than $15.

    Fetchlands see more play than Shocklands in Modern (and would see more play in Standard, even if Shocklands were reprinted), as well as probably all the casual formats (EDH, Cube, etc.). They see probably 10-100x more play than Shocklands in Vintage and Legacy, so the demand for Fetchlands > demand for Shocklands.

    On the other hand, if Shocklands were reprinted in Return to Ravnica, that set would be extremely popular, probably comparable to Zendikar. So you have a comparable supply of Shocklands from RtR alone as you did for enemy Fetchlands, on top of the already existing Shocklands. So the supply of Shocklands > supply of Fetchlands.

    Most of the enemy Fetchlands were hovering at around $10 during their time in Standard and are at $12-13 now. Even accounting for the existence of Modern, I can't see Shocklands exceeding Fetchlands.
  • #63
    Wow, can you imagine a standard environment where Snapcaster, Dark Confidant AND Delver of Secrets are legal?
    Add in despise and brains for appetite...

    Just when you thought tempo couldn't get any scarier.
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  • #64
    UB delver would be best deck hands down if confidant would be reprinted, with snappy, and tempo cards like vapor snag, mana leak, and now drawing 2 cards a turn, delver is already the best deck give it bob and we are talking bad format.
  • #65
    Quote from vegas10
    UB delver would be best deck hands down if confidant would be reprinted, with snappy, and tempo cards like vapor snag, mana leak, and now drawing 2 cards a turn, delver is already the best deck give it bob and we are talking bad format.


    Actually, if they could ban delver (like they should have) in standard. It would probably make it slightly more likely for him to be reprinted. That said... Having snapcaster and bob in a standard format together will probably never be allowed. So we will have to wait at least another year... if not more. Frown
  • #66
    Quote from Lil Dollar
    Actually, if they could ban delver (like they should have) in standard. It would probably make it slightly more likely for him to be reprinted. That said... Having snapcaster and bob in a standard format together will probably never be allowed. So we will have to wait at least another year... if not more. Frown


    No they shouldn't have banned delver in standard.

    I actually went at looked at the stats from the SCG invitational a few days ago. UW Delver was 44% of the meta and it only had a positive matchup vs 27% of the meta. 44% was 50/50 (the mirrors) and 29% of the meta beat them more often than they lost to them. Its overall win % vs non delver was 48%. So a deck making up 44% had a 48% average... seems good but not ban worthy.

    By comparison, CAWBlade was 15% of the meta, but even if you include the 50/50 matchup in the mirror, its lowest win % was 58%, factor it out and it jumps into the mid 60's, and on a good week, it was mid 70's - 58% is the highest delver's ever got.

    By comparison, at the same event, frites had a 73.33% win rate, tempered steel had an 83.33% win rate and esper control had 66.67%, yet not one of them made up more than 1.28% of the meta. Should there be calls for them to be banned?

    CAWBlade only got banned because it was so degenerate and was nigh impossible to attack effectively. That's obviously not the case with delver.


    And I see no reason why Bob & Snappy can't coexist - we lose a lot of the deck in October. Taking a look at the delver list that won the Indy Standard Open:

    10 of the 75 were basics, so that drops to 65 non-basics. Of those 65, it loses 36 cards. It loses its entire artifact suite, the only instant it keeps is thought scour, it loses all its sorceries, it loses seachrome coast, and it only keeps 3 cards from its sideboard. The only bit that isn't hurt is the creature base. Now, some will have replacements, snag becomes unsummon, sword maybe becomes pike, but a lot don't currently have repalcements - no dismember or gut shot without changing the manabase completely, no equivalent to leak other than maybe dissipate, no alternative to probe and ponder, no real alternate to frost titan.

    All in all, based on what we know now, post rotation, delver as it is now ceases to exist, and the equivalent replacements for cards are all inferior - pike doesn't protect, unsummon doesn't cost life, dissipate and clone cost more than leak and image, and it loses all its deck fixing except for the pseudo effect of thought scour. Without snap-ponder, the deck is a lot weaker.
    Rules Adviser
  • #67
    on topic....

    i'm keen for this nearly broken cards if it was really printed in RtR
  • #68
    I think he'll definitely be reprinted at some point. So will Tarmogoyf and many of the other expensive Modern staples.

    People seem to think these cards would be overpowered in Standard, but that's just not the case. As some people here have mentioned, the mana curves of Standard can't really support Bob all that well, and the absence of Fetch Lands and increased focus on creature combat make Tarmogoyf much, much less scary. Yes, each of those cards might find its way into a competitive Standard deck if they were reprinted, but they aren't the kind of card that every deck wants, not by a long shot.
  • #69
    Quote from vegas10
    UB delver would be best deck hands down if confidant would be reprinted, with snappy, and tempo cards like vapor snag, mana leak, and now drawing 2 cards a turn, delver is already the best deck give it bob and we are talking bad format.


    Delver is losing Vapor Snag, all the phyrexian mana spells, Ponder, and Mana Leak. Getting its hands on Bob is not going to make up for that. The deck might get back on its feet after rotation somewhat, but adding Bob isn't going to do anything except give Delver a new way to draw cards (without library manipulation) He might not even be playable in Delver builds since Darkslick Shores is rotating and we won't get Watery Grave (if we get it at all) until Gatecrash, so the mana base for U/B Delver will be too unreliable for such a tempo-oriented deck.

    Furthermore, any deck running anti-Delver cards is going to be well-equipped to deal with Bobs also.
  • #70
    Quote from Beerblebrox
    I think he'll definitely be reprinted at some point. So will Tarmogoyf and many of the other expensive Modern staples.

    People seem to think these cards would be overpowered in Standard, but that's just not the case. As some people here have mentioned, the mana curves of Standard can't really support Bob all that well, and the absence of Fetch Lands and increased focus on creature combat make Tarmogoyf much, much less scary. Yes, each of those cards might find its way into a competitive Standard deck if they were reprinted, but they aren't the kind of card that every deck wants, not by a long shot.


    Wholehearted agreement here. I mean, we're in a meta where curves spike in the 3-4 range, going up to 8 for gris. I don't know about other players, but losing 1-2 life is a lot different to me than losing 4-8 life. If my curve is that high, I'd rather have bloodgift demon (for standard) - at least that's a predictable 1.
    Rules Adviser
  • #71
    Yes you know what the format loses but dont know what it will gain. even in light of what Delver currently has.

    Aside from that, Dark Confidant would be fine to print if they reprint lightning bolt, since we already have tragic slip anyway. Not being able to deal him immediatley is what will make you lose more often than not. Unless they reprint Spell Snare, lol.

    And, if alot of cards that are constructed playable are 3 or more casting cost wise, then it would be at least a challenge to find a way to actually use dark confidant other than jam him in my tempo deck herp derp.
  • #72
    Quote from Lil Dollar
    Actually, if they could ban delver (like they should have) in standard.


    Spoken like a true person who hasn't played Delver and doesn't get the deck.

    Banning Delver wouldn't kill UW Tempo. Losing Ponder and G Probe at rotation will end that deck, Delver himself is just a red herring. As Lil Dollar has illustrated, an effective red herring.

    Rolleyes
  • #73
    Quote from Tormod
    Wow, can you imagine a standard environment where Snapcaster, Dark Confidant AND Delver of Secrets are legal?
    Add in despise and brains for appetite...

    Just when you thought tempo couldn't get any scarier.


    Wow, can you imagine the deck losing swords and phyrexian mana spells? Half the deck rotates out with RtR rotating in. We have no idea what standard will look like currently post RTR, as RTR hasn't been completely spoiled. Also, appetite for brains in constructed? Not happening anytime soon. Especially if a lot of the field is UB tempo with cards that cost 3 mana or less, as appetite for brains is a dead card if your opponent lacks a card that costs 4 or more mana. Or how about playing that card turn 1 against aggro, chances are good that you will whiff.

    I say reprint confidant. The card is fair in standard, where there are higher drop cards in comparison to legacy, where bob flips over cards that are all 3 mana or less sans force of will and tombstalker, if someone is even running tombstalker alongside confidant (unlikely.)
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  • #74
    Quote from Dakhwon
    Spoken like a true person who hasn't played Delver and doesn't get the deck.

    Banning Delver wouldn't kill UW Tempo. Losing Ponder and G Probe at rotation will end that deck, Delver himself is just a red herring. As Lil Dollar has illustrated, an effective red herring.

    Rolleyes


    absolutely agree...

    Delver was just adding a little aggro element but the main backbone was still Ponder and it's kind
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