Wouldn't work. There's nothing stopping someone from renting ABUDuals/moxen/vintage staples and then turning around and selling them for profit. You would have to be able to make a copy of that persons ID, social security number and credit card number. this would never work with cash and a casual basis. you would basically have to hold every person renting these cards accountable in the same way that car rental services hold their renters accountable. You would also need insurance, and good luck getting that.
So... you start out saying it "Wouldn't work". Then you continue to tell me how it would work? I'm confused...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Casual
:symu:Swirl the Paint:symu:
:symb:Relentless:symb:
:symr:Enchantshot:symr:
:symg:Lost in the Woods (You in the wrong neighborhood):symg:
:symg:Persistence:symg:
:symw::symu:Old-Fashioned Seance:symw::symu:
:symw::symu:Treasure Hunting:symw::symu:
:symrw::symwb:Kaalia:symrw::symwb:
The whole point of renting the cards is to make them affordable. It would be a 1-5% rate. I want to provide a large incentive to renting cards.
The same thing as any place of business when you can't afford something.
Is $80 a big deal at an event where rent cards would be worth wild? 1-5%, sorry, not gonna trust someone with $400 of cards for $4-$20. Normal wear and tear would run you more than that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Odds of pulling a JtMS from a WWK pack: 1:80
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
I think it's a totally viable idea, given the following criteria:
1: You keep their driver's license or state ID for the duration of the rental. If they come back emptyhanded because the deck gets lost or stolen, they are responsible for the full cost of the cards. If they never come back to return it, you call the police and explain the situation ... you know exactly who has your cards and how to find them.
2: You insure the card collection from which the rentals are occurring, so that you don't run into situations in which a guy who loses a deck he rented from you is also broke and can't raise the funds to pay you back. (This might be a weird issue as far as claims investigation goes, I have no idea how feasible this really is).
3: You build your "for rent" collection out of played-condition cards. This lowers your startup costs, disincentivizes people from switching out your mint copies for their played copies before returning them, and lowers the likelihood that a customer might accidentally damage a card in a fashion that lowers its value significantly while renting it (the difference between near-mint and medium-played cards is not nearly as serious as the difference between medium-played and heavily-played cards). Give the cards out unsleeved (or perfect-fitted) and get them back in the same way so you can see the fronts and backs of each card as you give them out and get them back ... if they're already in played condition, any significant further damage that occurs during the rental (or any attempt at switching out a card for a more damaged copy) will be easy to spot this way.
I could see this working pretty well, honestly. The "deposit" of official ID is crucial, though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Is $80 a big deal at an event where rent cards would be worth wild? 1-5%, sorry, not gonna trust someone with $400 of cards for $4-$20. Normal wear and tear would run you more than that.
You would certainly charge the person if they damaged your property. That's insane. If a guy rents out a playset of Underground Sea and some other expensive staples and then starts riffle shuffling and flicking the cards back and forth then you charge him for the damage he did to the cards.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
It wouldnt work for moxes, but if stores wanted to rent standard/modern decks they could feasible hold onto drivers licenses and simply stamp all the cards on the front and back (w/ opaque sleeves) with a big "RENTAL BY STORENAME. NOT FOR SALE, TRADE, OR RESALE."
Since I never play standard (all my magic funds go straight into limited), I know I would definitely be willing to shell out $25 for a full fledged top 8 decklist at a PTQ or GP or similar event.
You would certainly charge the person if they damaged your property. That's insane. If a guy rents out a playset of Underground Sea and some other expensive staples and then starts riffle shuffling and flicking the cards back and forth then you charge him for the damage he did to the cards.
That's why you don't use NM copies for your rental service. You find the bottom of the barrel condition stuff that you can get for the cheapest price you can find, and as long as it's sleeve playable you're fine.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
This would only work if you gave the a credit card and put the full amount down on the deck. At the end of the event they would have to regrade your cards and then adjust the charge on your card for any damage and the renting fee. This would work fine for standard but for legacy and vintage a lot of people do not want to or can put a $2,000+ charge on a credit card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Legacy Decks
0USpiral Tide0U
UWU/W 'Miracle Top' Control UW
012 Post 0
Random Opponent: Playing against 12 Post Feels like trying to win in Yugioh with no super secret rares.
I've been to "silent rave" dance events where the organizers hand out $250+ sets of wireless headphones and ask to keep peoples' official IDs as collateral. If that's a sustainable business plan, then it should work for this as well. There's always a couple IDs left at the end of the event and a couple sets of headphones missing, but the people running the rental service have all the info they need to hold the deadbeats responsible for losing or keeping the headphones.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Seems like an excellent idea and one that would benefit players.
I suspect that one would have to charge at least 10% to cover the cost of carrying the inventory and normal wear and tear.
Keep in mind that there are no barriers to entry that would prevent the other vendors from competing on equal terms. SCG or CFB already have the inventory and could quite easily match your rental model. For example, they could keep a record of their sales during the weekend and guarantee to buy back NM copies of those cards for 10% less later. (Or 9%, or 8% - whatever is enough to undercut the new business model.)
So a newcomer with a rental model may not actually make money on it, but the players may get access to cards for less than they pay now.
I'm looking at renting out normally completely unaffordable cards. Like Power 9 or something like Candelabras or Tarmagoyfs. Charging a high percentage will still make the cards unaffordable. For cards like Honor of the Pure or Rancor, I would probably not even bother renting out.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Casual
:symu:Swirl the Paint:symu:
:symb:Relentless:symb:
:symr:Enchantshot:symr:
:symg:Lost in the Woods (You in the wrong neighborhood):symg:
:symg:Persistence:symg:
:symw::symu:Old-Fashioned Seance:symw::symu:
:symw::symu:Treasure Hunting:symw::symu:
:symrw::symwb:Kaalia:symrw::symwb:
How often do Power 9 cards even get used in your area? I can understand a Legacy staple rental service but a Vintage rental service just seems like it wouldn't get used often enough to justify itself.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
If you could seal the cards in the sleeves somehow with custom sleeves with a basic logo that could be tourny legal many of your problems would be solved. You could keep the cards in decent condition, secure label so people would be afraid to steal them + advertising, and you could still sell the cards after they rotated out.
I've been to "silent rave" dance events where the organizers hand out $250+ sets of wireless headphones and ask to keep peoples' official IDs as collateral. If that's a sustainable business plan, then it should work for this as well. There's always a couple IDs left at the end of the event and a couple sets of headphones missing, but the people running the rental service have all the info they need to hold the deadbeats responsible for losing or keeping the headphones.
doesn't a silent rave kind of defeat the point?
on the topic, I don't see a rental service as all that viable. at worst, you have people running off with your **** and possibly pissing off the LGS as well (i.e. trumping their card case sales). at best, as a private individual doing this it looks a little shady and you get no substantial patronage.
Take your monoblack deck, then set aside 14 swamps. Add 4 Creeping Tar Pits, 4 Darkslick Shores, 4 Drowned Catacombs, and 2 Jwar isle Refuge and add 4 Jace, the Mindsculptors. Your monoblack deck is instantly better. Better yet, drop those refuges, throw in some islands and some mana leaks, and lo and behold, you're now playing a real deck. Congratulations. Welcome to the world of competitive M:TG.
Um it really depends because if its too much then i say no and i start looking for players with them that will let me borrow them. I have a small playgroup and people just borrow cards all the time.
I think a big thing would be cost because some older more expensive cards might hit higher prices to rent as im sure some people would "forget" to return cards and the rental service would loose money. I think i would rent if there was a deposit. So you pay x for renting and x is the same for every card they have and you pay a deposit that you would get back and have if be some sort of some percent of the value, so players dont just keep the cards and have a reason to return them
Overall though i like the idea. Ive spent quite a bit on cards that i thought would be nice to have and they just sit in my binder now. I also have a zombie deck i thought would be nice and it doesnt run well at all and i droped close to 100$ on it i think in the end and i really dont want it anymore
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sig by Rivenor at miraculous recovery and Avatar by Ace5301 at five handed lizard EDH
Ghave
Phelddagrif
Omnath
Won't work. Those that would take care of the rented cards most likely can afford them anyway. The players to young or broke to afford them that would rent them would just damage them/destroy them/ keep them. Then you would be in perpetual hell arguing over a scratch/a ruined card/calling the police. It would be a monumental nightmare.
Seems to me it'll either end up being too cheap for renters to make a profit - and thus not be worth the time and resources to set up and run the program - or so expensive I would rather save my money and buy expensive staples myself at a later date...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner // (W/U)(W/U)(W/U) Grand Arbiter Augustin IV // RRR Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker // (R/G)(R/G)(R/G) Wort, the Raidmother // URG Riku of Two Reflections // RWU Ruhan of the Fomori
Quote from Mark Rosewater »
In response to your Lightning Blast, I'll eat this burrito.
Quote from slipknot72102 »
This is why I started playing magic in the first place. It wasn't PT aspirations just making noobs cry by doing things that are perfectly fair.
Not trying to advrtise, mentioning the site since its related to the OP - borrowlenses.com does a very similar service for camera lenses, which can get quite expensive. I've rented from them before, they were great. Was much better to spend $35 on a week's rental of a wide-angle lens I wouldn't use again, than to buy that wide-angle lens. It's all done through the mail, etc. They place a giant hold on your card for more than the value of the lens borrowed in case you don't return it. There's no issues of security with it, and you can't fight the charge when they have contracts saying you agree to it. There's also no issues of condition, etc the lens is returned in because of the same contract.
Invest in a scanner and some good sorting /organizing software to document each card rented, invest in a lawyer to write up a sound contract for this endeavor, and do some careful market research (I would not consider this post market research; you see an incredibly small window of the community, and opinions are very often a few degrees off from the norm). This idea could work very well.
The cost to purchase the massive inventory neccessary in order to be able to make such a setup viable, and the amount of risk involved vs the proposed rock bottom rate to charge simply wouldnt be worth it.
Shops likely wouldnt do this, because its better for them to simply have and sell/trade the cards they have, than to rent them for some crazy low rate, and not make near the amount of money on them. Shops have to clear a massive amount of sales every month to be able to make enough profits to be able to pay for their massive overhead of rent/bills, before accounting for trying to expand inventory, or the owners to earn an income of some kind, etc.
As a player, I would love the service if it was offered at such a low rate. As someone who owns/runs the magic singles collection for a local shop, I wouldnt touch such a proposal with a 50-yard pole.
Now if someone happenned to have a ton of money just lieing around, and wanted to do something awesome for the local magic community, then that would be terrific. But I dont personally know anyone like that here, and I dont forsee any shop likely being willing to do that.
Let me lay something out for you, that I'm sure many here are already aware of. On the first day of GenCon (any convention really, but I have the most experience with GenCon) there is a veritable flood of people heading to the singles sellers to buy cards for their decks. They get played over the weekend.
Fast forward to the last day (or second to last day).
There is a reverse flood - all those people who bought cards (well not *all* but a significant number of them) are returning to the singles booths to sell cards. Surprisingly enough, they are the same cards they bought. People who won want to sell prizes to convert their winnings into cash rather than cards, and people who lost want to sell cards to recoup their losses and try and get closer to breaking even on the trip.
In essence the card shops already do rent out cards. And the lost or damaged aspect is covered, because they make you pay up front the full price. The thing about cards is they are a commodity. SCG doesn't care if they get the exact same primeval titan back, as long as they get a primeval titan back.
What if you looked at it from this angle...you get a website set up where you take custom deck/singles orders. Someone coming to a grand prix places an order for their Legacy deck over the internet...they agree to all the terms, provide a credit card with a valid ID via the website and when they get to the event, their deck or singles are there waiting for them. After the event, the cards are returned and their credit card is charged the appropriate amount.
You take out the ominous presence that'd be required if people were to rent cards the day of the event and doing that, you also diminish the perceived threat you pose to the event's owners since you wouldn't be actively doing business there and taking away customers that had originally planned on buying things. Maybe you're even partnered with the event holders (if it's a store) where they hand out and then collect the singles/decks on your behalf for a fee. This would also require less travel for you/employees, reduce cost and then you are able to do this nation-wide or possibly even internationally.
I'm sure there'd be unforeseen hurdles no one has yet thought of but here are a few basic things I think you'd need for it to work:
-Card condition is not really taken into account...you'd profit best by using non-NM cards.
-Cards would need to be marked; possibly numbered individually
-Your inventory would need to be huge in order to make money or even be taken seriously. Imagine a first time user trying to rent a few popular cards but since your inventory is so scarce, those cards are already unavailable. Well the chances of that customer returning are slim to none.
-Website that can process orders.
-In addition to maintaining a web prescence (which I think should be your main outlet), you'd need representatives all most major events throughout the country...this means travel, labor expenses, insurance, etc...this would probably be the biggest and most expensive hurdle next to actually acquiring inventory (unless you reach deals with A LOT of retailers throughout the country that provide incentives for them to buy into your business plan...which also = $$$).
It'd be a huge undertaking but I do believe it's possible. My friends and I have talked about this in length before but never really got anywhere.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So... you start out saying it "Wouldn't work". Then you continue to tell me how it would work? I'm confused...
:symb:Relentless:symb:
:symr:Enchantshot:symr:
:symg:Lost in the Woods (You in the wrong neighborhood):symg:
:symg:Persistence:symg:
:symw::symu:Old-Fashioned Seance:symw::symu:
:symw::symu:Treasure Hunting:symw::symu:
:symrw::symwb:Kaalia:symrw::symwb:
Is $80 a big deal at an event where rent cards would be worth wild? 1-5%, sorry, not gonna trust someone with $400 of cards for $4-$20. Normal wear and tear would run you more than that.
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
1: You keep their driver's license or state ID for the duration of the rental. If they come back emptyhanded because the deck gets lost or stolen, they are responsible for the full cost of the cards. If they never come back to return it, you call the police and explain the situation ... you know exactly who has your cards and how to find them.
2: You insure the card collection from which the rentals are occurring, so that you don't run into situations in which a guy who loses a deck he rented from you is also broke and can't raise the funds to pay you back. (This might be a weird issue as far as claims investigation goes, I have no idea how feasible this really is).
3: You build your "for rent" collection out of played-condition cards. This lowers your startup costs, disincentivizes people from switching out your mint copies for their played copies before returning them, and lowers the likelihood that a customer might accidentally damage a card in a fashion that lowers its value significantly while renting it (the difference between near-mint and medium-played cards is not nearly as serious as the difference between medium-played and heavily-played cards). Give the cards out unsleeved (or perfect-fitted) and get them back in the same way so you can see the fronts and backs of each card as you give them out and get them back ... if they're already in played condition, any significant further damage that occurs during the rental (or any attempt at switching out a card for a more damaged copy) will be easy to spot this way.
I could see this working pretty well, honestly. The "deposit" of official ID is crucial, though.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
You would certainly charge the person if they damaged your property. That's insane. If a guy rents out a playset of Underground Sea and some other expensive staples and then starts riffle shuffling and flicking the cards back and forth then you charge him for the damage he did to the cards.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Since I never play standard (all my magic funds go straight into limited), I know I would definitely be willing to shell out $25 for a full fledged top 8 decklist at a PTQ or GP or similar event.
That's why you don't use NM copies for your rental service. You find the bottom of the barrel condition stuff that you can get for the cheapest price you can find, and as long as it's sleeve playable you're fine.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
I suspect that one would have to charge at least 10% to cover the cost of carrying the inventory and normal wear and tear.
Keep in mind that there are no barriers to entry that would prevent the other vendors from competing on equal terms. SCG or CFB already have the inventory and could quite easily match your rental model. For example, they could keep a record of their sales during the weekend and guarantee to buy back NM copies of those cards for 10% less later. (Or 9%, or 8% - whatever is enough to undercut the new business model.)
So a newcomer with a rental model may not actually make money on it, but the players may get access to cards for less than they pay now.
:symb:Relentless:symb:
:symr:Enchantshot:symr:
:symg:Lost in the Woods (You in the wrong neighborhood):symg:
:symg:Persistence:symg:
:symw::symu:Old-Fashioned Seance:symw::symu:
:symw::symu:Treasure Hunting:symw::symu:
:symrw::symwb:Kaalia:symrw::symwb:
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
:oGo On......
My Trades "I PULLED A FOIL TAMIYO!" Recently Bought a Boosterbox,Tons of NewStuff!:o - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8531589#post8531589
My Trades "I PULLED A FOIL TAMIYO!" Recently Bought a Boosterbox,Tons of NewStuff!:o - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8531589#post8531589
doesn't a silent rave kind of defeat the point?
on the topic, I don't see a rental service as all that viable. at worst, you have people running off with your **** and possibly pissing off the LGS as well (i.e. trumping their card case sales). at best, as a private individual doing this it looks a little shady and you get no substantial patronage.
I think a big thing would be cost because some older more expensive cards might hit higher prices to rent as im sure some people would "forget" to return cards and the rental service would loose money. I think i would rent if there was a deposit. So you pay x for renting and x is the same for every card they have and you pay a deposit that you would get back and have if be some sort of some percent of the value, so players dont just keep the cards and have a reason to return them
Overall though i like the idea. Ive spent quite a bit on cards that i thought would be nice to have and they just sit in my binder now. I also have a zombie deck i thought would be nice and it doesnt run well at all and i droped close to 100$ on it i think in the end and i really dont want it anymore
Sig by Rivenor at miraculous recovery and Avatar by Ace5301 at five handed lizard
EDH
Ghave
Phelddagrif
Omnath
Invest in a scanner and some good sorting /organizing software to document each card rented, invest in a lawyer to write up a sound contract for this endeavor, and do some careful market research (I would not consider this post market research; you see an incredibly small window of the community, and opinions are very often a few degrees off from the norm). This idea could work very well.
Shops likely wouldnt do this, because its better for them to simply have and sell/trade the cards they have, than to rent them for some crazy low rate, and not make near the amount of money on them. Shops have to clear a massive amount of sales every month to be able to make enough profits to be able to pay for their massive overhead of rent/bills, before accounting for trying to expand inventory, or the owners to earn an income of some kind, etc.
As a player, I would love the service if it was offered at such a low rate. As someone who owns/runs the magic singles collection for a local shop, I wouldnt touch such a proposal with a 50-yard pole.
Now if someone happenned to have a ton of money just lieing around, and wanted to do something awesome for the local magic community, then that would be terrific. But I dont personally know anyone like that here, and I dont forsee any shop likely being willing to do that.
Let me lay something out for you, that I'm sure many here are already aware of. On the first day of GenCon (any convention really, but I have the most experience with GenCon) there is a veritable flood of people heading to the singles sellers to buy cards for their decks. They get played over the weekend.
Fast forward to the last day (or second to last day).
There is a reverse flood - all those people who bought cards (well not *all* but a significant number of them) are returning to the singles booths to sell cards. Surprisingly enough, they are the same cards they bought. People who won want to sell prizes to convert their winnings into cash rather than cards, and people who lost want to sell cards to recoup their losses and try and get closer to breaking even on the trip.
In essence the card shops already do rent out cards. And the lost or damaged aspect is covered, because they make you pay up front the full price. The thing about cards is they are a commodity. SCG doesn't care if they get the exact same primeval titan back, as long as they get a primeval titan back.
You take out the ominous presence that'd be required if people were to rent cards the day of the event and doing that, you also diminish the perceived threat you pose to the event's owners since you wouldn't be actively doing business there and taking away customers that had originally planned on buying things. Maybe you're even partnered with the event holders (if it's a store) where they hand out and then collect the singles/decks on your behalf for a fee. This would also require less travel for you/employees, reduce cost and then you are able to do this nation-wide or possibly even internationally.
I'm sure there'd be unforeseen hurdles no one has yet thought of but here are a few basic things I think you'd need for it to work:
-Card condition is not really taken into account...you'd profit best by using non-NM cards.
-Cards would need to be marked; possibly numbered individually
-Your inventory would need to be huge in order to make money or even be taken seriously. Imagine a first time user trying to rent a few popular cards but since your inventory is so scarce, those cards are already unavailable. Well the chances of that customer returning are slim to none.
-Website that can process orders.
-In addition to maintaining a web prescence (which I think should be your main outlet), you'd need representatives all most major events throughout the country...this means travel, labor expenses, insurance, etc...this would probably be the biggest and most expensive hurdle next to actually acquiring inventory (unless you reach deals with A LOT of retailers throughout the country that provide incentives for them to buy into your business plan...which also = $$$).
It'd be a huge undertaking but I do believe it's possible. My friends and I have talked about this in length before but never really got anywhere.