That's my point. Player A has a winter orb in a singleton format. Player's B, C, and D have no answer in a singleton format. Doesn't sound very unusual as people like to play cards that do things other than blow up other people's things. Someone could well have an answer and never draw it in a timely fashion because it's 1 out of 80+ cards/good luck drawing it. When that happens, it is very unfun indeed especially when it comes to a casual format like EDH where you're supposed to enjoy playing the game unlike at tournaments.
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That's my point. Player A has a winter orb in a singleton format. Player's B, C, and D have no answer in a singleton format. Doesn't sound very unusual as people like to play cards that do things other than blow up other people's things. Someone could well have an answer and never draw it in a timely fashion because it's 1 out of 80+ cards/good luck drawing it. When that happens, it is very unfun indeed especially when it comes to a casual format like EDH where you're supposed to enjoy playing the game unlike at tournaments.
Exactly. And even so, I was running lots of artifact removal anyway because I know everyone likes to use Lightning Greaves, Darksteel Forge etc. etc ... things that completely kill a game of EDH. The problem is, the other two players didn't have anything, so I was the only one who could've gotten rid of those things. And I did manage to kill it once, but then with Daretti it doesn't matter because he can just keep recurring it.
And besides, I don't see why I should feel I have to devote 10 - 15 slots in my deck to artifact hate just in case stuff like this happens.
TL;DR: don't play combo when nobody else does nor has ever been, everybody will hate you and you'll think you're so smart because you netdecked combos.
Why do you guys keep inviting him back? He sounds really annoying.
That's my point. Player A has a winter orb in a singleton format. Player's B, C, and D have no answer in a singleton format. Doesn't sound very unusual as people like to play cards that do things other than blow up other people's things. Someone could well have an answer and never draw it in a timely fashion because it's 1 out of 80+ cards/good luck drawing it. When that happens, it is very unfun indeed especially when it comes to a casual format like EDH where you're supposed to enjoy playing the game unlike at tournaments.
Exactly. And even so, I was running lots of artifact removal anyway because I know everyone likes to use Lightning Greaves, Darksteel Forge etc. etc ... things that completely kill a game of EDH. The problem is, the other two players didn't have anything, so I was the only one who could've gotten rid of those things. And I did manage to kill it once, but then with Daretti it doesn't matter because he can just keep recurring it.
And besides, I don't see why I should feel I have to devote 10 - 15 slots in my deck to artifact hate just in case stuff like this happens.
Mate if you think Lightning Greaves kills a game of EDH you're in the wrong format. Just because the guy plays a competitive deck does not make him a rude player. Like I said before, sometimes you have an answer sometimes you don't. No use getting salty about it. Maybe it's because I play lantern control in modern and GW Stax in EDH but I don't see the problem with Winter Orb. I don't personally run it in mine but if it were really that oppressive it would be banned.
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Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
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EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
That's my point. Player A has a winter orb in a singleton format. Player's B, C, and D have no answer in a singleton format. Doesn't sound very unusual as people like to play cards that do things other than blow up other people's things. Someone could well have an answer and never draw it in a timely fashion because it's 1 out of 80+ cards/good luck drawing it. When that happens, it is very unfun indeed especially when it comes to a casual format like EDH where you're supposed to enjoy playing the game unlike at tournaments.
Exactly. And even so, I was running lots of artifact removal anyway because I know everyone likes to use Lightning Greaves, Darksteel Forge etc. etc ... things that completely kill a game of EDH. The problem is, the other two players didn't have anything, so I was the only one who could've gotten rid of those things. And I did manage to kill it once, but then with Daretti it doesn't matter because he can just keep recurring it.
And besides, I don't see why I should feel I have to devote 10 - 15 slots in my deck to artifact hate just in case stuff like this happens.
Mate if you think Lightning Greaves kills a game of EDH you're in the wrong format. Just because the guy plays a competitive deck does not make him a rude player. Like I said before, sometimes you have an answer sometimes you don't. No use getting salty about it. Maybe it's because I play lantern control in modern and GW Stax in EDH but I don't see the problem with Winter Orb. I don't personally run it in mine but if it were really that oppressive it would be banned.
If he was playing a 1-on-1 competitive EDH game, than sure, do whatever. But when you sit down for a 4-player casual game, I personally think you should not use those types of cards (or any infinite combo nonsense either).
If he was playing a 1-on-1 competitive EDH game, than sure, do whatever. But when you sit down for a 4-player casual game, I personally think you should not use those types of cards (or any infinite combo nonsense either).
People shouldn't play anything to protect their commander in a 4 player game where you have to dodge removal from three players? How exactly is that logical?
And the running point here is "I personally". It is okay for you personally to dislike certain cards or certain types of decks. But that does not make a player playing those cards or decks rude. I actually consider it a bit ruder to complain about the unfair card lightning greaves and seemingly wanting to ban it in his or her group rather than find an answer to it.
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If he was playing a 1-on-1 competitive EDH game, than sure, do whatever. But when you sit down for a 4-player casual game, I personally think you should not use those types of cards (or any infinite combo nonsense either).
People shouyldn't play anything to protect their commander in a 4 player game where you have to dodge removal from three players? How exactly is that logical?
And the running point here is "I personally". It isokay for you personally to dislike certain cards or certain types of decks. But that does not make a player playing those cards or decks rude. I actually consider it a bit ruder to complain about the unfair card lightning greaves and seemingly wanting to ban it in his or her group rather than find an answer to it.
Can I like this more than once? Please?
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Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
If he was playing a 1-on-1 competitive EDH game, than sure, do whatever. But when you sit down for a 4-player casual game, I personally think you should not use those types of cards (or any infinite combo nonsense either).
People shouldn't play anything to protect their commander in a 4 player game where you have to dodge removal from three players? How exactly is that logical?
And the running point here is "I personally". It is okay for you personally to dislike certain cards or certain types of decks. But that does not make a player playing those cards or decks rude. I actually consider it a bit ruder to complain about the unfair card lightning greaves and seemingly wanting to ban it in his or her group rather than find an answer to it.
Okay, maybe Greaves is a bad example ... that on its own is not so obnoxious. But I have it as part of my 'dislike list' because I tried playing EDH on MTGO a couple of times but I will never do so again because EVERY SINGLE GAME went like this:
Turn 1 – Ornithopter (or some other 0 or 1 drop artifact)
Turns 2 and 3 – find some way to get Lightning Greaves
Turn 4 – Tinker, sac Thopter, Darksteel Forge.
And their commanders were all ones that generated huge advantage every turn. And the only possible thing that could touch them now was anything that exiled artifacts, which meant you had to be playing G or W (this was before Scour from Existence). But like I said, if everyone was playing super competitively, that's fine. I wasn't, so I didn't go back.
But when I'm at my LGS on a Sunday afternoon, and everyone says 'Hey, let's just have a fun game of EDH,' you should know not to run a deck with Greaves, and Forge, and Winter Orb, and Ensnaring Bridge, etc. You know it's going to completely ruin the game for everybody.
If he was playing a 1-on-1 competitive EDH game, than sure, do whatever. But when you sit down for a 4-player casual game, I personally think you should not use those types of cards (or any infinite combo nonsense either).
People shouldn't play anything to protect their commander in a 4 player game where you have to dodge removal from three players? How exactly is that logical?
And the running point here is "I personally". It is okay for you personally to dislike certain cards or certain types of decks. But that does not make a player playing those cards or decks rude. I actually consider it a bit ruder to complain about the unfair card lightning greaves and seemingly wanting to ban it in his or her group rather than find an answer to it.
Okay, maybe Greaves is a bad example ... that on its own is not so obnoxious. But I have it as part of my 'dislike list' because I tried playing EDH on MTGO a couple of times but I will never do so again because EVERY SINGLE GAME went like this:
Turn 1 – Ornithopter (or some other 0 or 1 drop artifact)
Turns 2 and 3 – find some way to get Lightning Greaves
Turn 4 – Tinker, sac Thopter, Darksteel Forge.
And their commanders were all ones that generated huge advantage every turn. And the only possible thing that could touch them now was anything that exiled artifacts, which meant you had to be playing G or W (this was before Scour from Existence). But like I said, if everyone was playing super competitively, that's fine. I wasn't, so I didn't go back.
But when I'm at my LGS on a Sunday afternoon, and everyone says 'Hey, let's just have a fun game of EDH,' you should know not to run a deck with Greaves, and Forge, and Winter Orb, and Ensnaring Bridge, etc. You know it's going to completely ruin the game for everybody.
So the opponent spent a bunch of cards and played a banned card to make his or her artifacts indestructible instead of just getting a blightsteel and kill you? How come I don't believe you?
Thing is, you claim that it is going to ruin the game for everybody. But only thing that is sure is that it will ruin the game for you. If people can't play with cards such as winter orb that just means that the monogreen rampdeck will win every game.
IMO it is more fun when there is a fight over resources rather than people just playing their cards hoping that their cards are bigger and badderrer than their opponents.
I much prefer my casual fun EDH games to be games with tough decisions, powerful efficient cards and fights for all the different resources.
You still haven't explained why greaves are so evil though, I would very much like to hear your reasoning behind that. I also assume you don't play Sol Ring in your decks either then.
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Okay, then if it wasn't Tinker specifically it was an artifact-tutoring effect that let them go grab Darksteel Forge (I admit the don't remember the exact sequence of cards, I just remember the result). Anyway, I remember knowing right away the game was over.
If he was playing a 1-on-1 competitive EDH game, than sure, do whatever. But when you sit down for a 4-player casual game, I personally think you should not use those types of cards (or any infinite combo nonsense either).
People shouldn't play anything to protect their commander in a 4 player game where you have to dodge removal from three players? How exactly is that logical?
And the running point here is "I personally". It is okay for you personally to dislike certain cards or certain types of decks. But that does not make a player playing those cards or decks rude. I actually consider it a bit ruder to complain about the unfair card lightning greaves and seemingly wanting to ban it in his or her group rather than find an answer to it.
Okay, maybe Greaves is a bad example ... that on its own is not so obnoxious. But I have it as part of my 'dislike list' because I tried playing EDH on MTGO a couple of times but I will never do so again because EVERY SINGLE GAME went like this:
Turn 1 – Ornithopter (or some other 0 or 1 drop artifact)
Turns 2 and 3 – find some way to get Lightning Greaves
Turn 4 – Tinker, sac Thopter, Darksteel Forge.
And their commanders were all ones that generated huge advantage every turn. And the only possible thing that could touch them now was anything that exiled artifacts, which meant you had to be playing G or W (this was before Scour from Existence). But like I said, if everyone was playing super competitively, that's fine. I wasn't, so I didn't go back.
But when I'm at my LGS on a Sunday afternoon, and everyone says 'Hey, let's just have a fun game of EDH,' you should know not to run a deck with Greaves, and Forge, and Winter Orb, and Ensnaring Bridge, etc. You know it's going to completely ruin the game for everybody.
So the opponent spent a bunch of cards and played a banned card to make his or her artifacts indestructible instead of just getting a blightsteel and kill you? How come I don't believe you?
Thing is, you claim that it is going to ruin the game for everybody. But only thing that is sure is that it will ruin the game for you. If people can't play with cards such as winter orb that just means that the monogreen rampdeck will win every game.
IMO it is more fun when there is a fight over resources rather than people just playing their cards hoping that their cards are bigger and badderrer than their opponents.
I much prefer my casual fun EDH games to be games with tough decisions, powerful efficient cards and fights for all the different resources.
You still haven't explained why greaves are so evil though, I would very much like to hear your reasoning behind that. I also assume you don't play Sol Ring in your decks either then.
Like I said, Greaves are not terrible on their own, because you can just destroy them. But when paired with Darksteel Forge, it makes their Commander completely invincible to everything everything except exiling the Greaves, and to exile the Greaves, you basically can only be in certain colours or else have very focussed cards for that purpose.
It warps the meta, because if you know your opponents are doing that you have to completely change your deck just to deal with it and then it's not fun, just entirely reactive.
Honestly at this point it just sounds like EDH isn't the format for you. Greaves itself is just about standard in almost every EDH deck there is, and you naturally want to play things to protect your stuff. It's a game. People play to win.
Honestly at this point it just sounds like EDH isn't the format for you. Greaves itself is just about standard in almost every EDH deck there is, and you naturally want to play things to protect your stuff. It's a game. People play to win.
No, people also play to have fun. Especially in a multiplayer environment. If one player is making things extremely un-fun for all the others, I think that's rude. And that person probably knew how his actions would be taken, but didn't care. To me, that's rude.
Wanted to weigh in briefly--used to play EDH just with friends at home but have recently started playing at the LGS and this argument always comes up.
"Casual" and "Competitive" mean very different things to different groups of people. This can put "good" fair decks in an awkward position. For example, I played two games the other day. In the first, I played my Oloro, Ageless Ascetic deck, which is basically just Esper Goodstuff (aka Wrath.dec). It's what I call my "for fun" deck. There's nothing crazy in the deck, but getting wrathed every 5 or so turns made people really annoyed even though it didn't really mean that much in the context of the game. Flip that around, in the second game I was playing with Meren of Clan Nel Toth, which is my "fair competitive" deck, and was absolutely destroyed by a player on like T3 playing Planeswalker Teferi Stax. Of course, some players see Meren and won't even let me play, so I feel kind of in limbo.
My two cents RE: Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots. They're both super fine. So is Darksteel Forge. Tinker is not okay (and is illegal anyway). Also, it helps to slot in some less than terrible answers if the Forge is getting you down; I ended up sticking a Brutalizer Exarch in my Meren list pretty much for that card specifically.
Honestly at this point it just sounds like EDH isn't the format for you. Greaves itself is just about standard in almost every EDH deck there is, and you naturally want to play things to protect your stuff. It's a game. People play to win.
No, people also play to have fun. Especially in a multiplayer environment. If one player is making things extremely un-fun for all the others, I think that's rude. And that person probably knew how his actions would be taken, but didn't care. To me, that's rude.
But seems we'll have to agree to disagree here.
Thing is, you find his playstyle Rude, the next group kisses the ground he walks on for showing them a way to counter the ug combo deck that has been destroying them for the last month. Which archetypes are acceptable are subjective from group to group, and his deck choice does not make him inherently rude. I for one love puzzles, and decks like that create excellent puzzles for the group to figure out. I once got the group out of a darksteel forge/nev disk lock by bouncing the forge in response to the disk after about 5 turns. Was one of the more memorable games I've ever played
Honestly at this point it just sounds like EDH isn't the format for you. Greaves itself is just about standard in almost every EDH deck there is, and you naturally want to play things to protect your stuff. It's a game. People play to win.
No, people also play to have fun. Especially in a multiplayer environment. If one player is making things extremely un-fun for all the others, I think that's rude. And that person probably knew how his actions would be taken, but didn't care. To me, that's rude.
But seems we'll have to agree to disagree here.
Some people also have fun by playing competitively and trying to win. I, personally, love playing my GAAIV Stax deck, as it can be difficult to pilot correctly, especially with 3 opponents barreling down on me, trying to kill me as fast as possible. I enjoy the challenge of that and find it fun, as I'm sure others do.
Your argument is that people play to have fun, but who are you to judge what someone finds fun?
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Some people also have fun by playing competitively and trying to win. I, personally, love playing my GAAIV Stax deck, as it can be difficult to pilot correctly, especially with 3 opponents barreling down on me, trying to kill me as fast as possible. I enjoy the challenge of that and find it fun, as I'm sure others do.
Your argument is that people play to have fun, but who are you to judge what someone finds fun?
Sort of agree here, except that if you're playing Stax against three other people playing with stock pre-cons, you're the ONLY one having fun. Commander games should be fun for everyone, not just one of the players. If everyone else is taking 30 second turns and you're taking 10 minute turns, it may be fun for you but not for anyone else.
Again, not an argument against playing a deck, it's just my opinion that you should try to play against similarly competitive decks. Still, if crushing the hopes and dreams of every other EDH player is the reason you play EDH, go for it. Just don't be surprised if people get annoyed.
it makes their Commander completely invincible to everything everything except exiling the Greaves,
It warps the meta, because if you know your opponents are doing that you have to completely change your deck just to deal with it and then it's not fun, just entirely reactive.
Well, invincible except to wraths, bounce, evacuations, lighthouse, mass -x effects, just killing him and a few other things.
There is a difference between having to completely change your deck and to realize that it is a good thing to not only put in cards to further your strategy but also cards to answer opposing threats. That is why cards such as Austere Command and Toxic Deluge are considered so good in EDH. They are very versatile answers to a lot of things.
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Comments like these are why I could never get into EDH to begin with. It's almost impossible to get everyone in a group on the same power/enjoyment level, or you are
left with someone just sulking at the table saying this and that is unfair.
I remember being the odd man out at friend's EDH night. I didn't have an EDH deck so they let me use my regular one and when I dropped Supreme Verdict everyone there looked at me like I was the worst human being ever, some I would imagine had never even seen a board wipe before.
It really depends on the person. I mean, the first couple times I played EDH it was using my really crappy first brew EDH or eventually using the meren precon. I got beat into the ground every time, but I still had fun. Why? Because I was playing magic and that's enough for me. What did losing mean for me? It meant I needed to build a better deck, so I built Kithkin tribal with Gaddock Teeg. Well, Teeg tends to get you hated out, so now I'm building Stax. Might as well give them a reason to hate me out. The point is, it's not about winning or losing it's about the love of the game. Sometimes you won't have an answer for their play, and that's ok.
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Standard: GR Pummeler
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
Some people also have fun by playing competitively and trying to win. I, personally, love playing my GAAIV Stax deck, as it can be difficult to pilot correctly, especially with 3 opponents barreling down on me, trying to kill me as fast as possible. I enjoy the challenge of that and find it fun, as I'm sure others do.
Your argument is that people play to have fun, but who are you to judge what someone finds fun?
Sort of agree here, except that if you're playing Stax against three other people playing with stock pre-cons, you're the ONLY one having fun. Commander games should be fun for everyone, not just one of the players. If everyone else is taking 30 second turns and you're taking 10 minute turns, it may be fun for you but not for anyone else.
Again, not an argument against playing a deck, it's just my opinion that you should try to play against similarly competitive decks. Still, if crushing the hopes and dreams of every other EDH player is the reason you play EDH, go for it. Just don't be surprised if people get annoyed.
This seems obvious to me too, but some people don't seem to care, or enjoy being the 'bad guy', so whatever.
You guys can all argue until the cows come home but no one is right or wrong because what is fun is so subjective, especially in magic
At my shop I normally played with a few guys who were on the same wave length, we kept it competitive in standard and draft play, but EDH was played super casually, in long drawn out games of back and forth fights. This was fun for us.
On one occasion a new guy whom we hadn't played with before joined in, and proceeded to splinter twin combo off in a few turns when he made sure everyone was tapped out. He had fun, we did not.
So to each his own. It's tough but try to find people who like Magic the way you do
This isn't really a worst/rudest player as much as just a slimy player/players.
Preface: we played a CNS2 draft the night before last and I picked up cards for my two friends. Once we were done drafting and playing, they walked out of my apartment without paying me back or taking the cards they drafted. When I asked them to pay me, they said "Oh, we didn't plan on keeping the cards". It may have been a miscommunication if it were anyone else, but these two friends (they're a couple actually) have a history of cheaping out on things and leaving my wife and I to foot the bill on their behalf. We've also split boxes/fat packs etc with them before only to have them literally say "we'll pay our portion after we see what cards we get because we don't really collect Magic cards and we just want to keep valuable ones to sell them". That's pretty slimy and of course I never let that happen.
Anyway, after the CNS2 thing happened the night before, there was a bit of a clash between us as we hashed out how cheap they were being. Fast forward to last night, and we've got company visiting and we are all doing a special draft: all unhinged packs. Cheapasses A and B only bought 3 packs between them, so we let them draft and play as one person so they could both participate. Anyway, we start the draft and don't Cheapasses A and B sit there with their phones in their faces looking up the value of EVERY SINGLE CARD in each pack before they draft a card from them! I looked at my wife and gave her a face of disgust and she just rolled her eyes. No one said anything to them and thankfully they didn't actually pull anything of value anyway. But come on...that's a scumbag thing to do.
To temper all of this, the girl just told us she won a football pool at work for $170 and recently was paid for a commercial she was in for $3.5k and her boyfriend just got a lump sum from a commercial he did of $7.5k. Neither one of them is hurting for money, but it seems like that's all they care about, even if it means screwing over their friends. Really grinds my gears.
/rant
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That's part of the game mate. Sometimes you won't have an answer.
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
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If you have 16 tapped lands as it resolves you've had time to find an answer.
And it'd be an answer for any artifact, not just Orb.
I don't see this tangent going anywhere healthy however, so I'll not post about this anymore.
Exactly. And even so, I was running lots of artifact removal anyway because I know everyone likes to use Lightning Greaves, Darksteel Forge etc. etc ... things that completely kill a game of EDH. The problem is, the other two players didn't have anything, so I was the only one who could've gotten rid of those things. And I did manage to kill it once, but then with Daretti it doesn't matter because he can just keep recurring it.
And besides, I don't see why I should feel I have to devote 10 - 15 slots in my deck to artifact hate just in case stuff like this happens.
Why do you guys keep inviting him back? He sounds really annoying.
Mate if you think Lightning Greaves kills a game of EDH you're in the wrong format. Just because the guy plays a competitive deck does not make him a rude player. Like I said before, sometimes you have an answer sometimes you don't. No use getting salty about it. Maybe it's because I play lantern control in modern and GW Stax in EDH but I don't see the problem with Winter Orb. I don't personally run it in mine but if it were really that oppressive it would be banned.
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
If he was playing a 1-on-1 competitive EDH game, than sure, do whatever. But when you sit down for a 4-player casual game, I personally think you should not use those types of cards (or any infinite combo nonsense either).
People shouldn't play anything to protect their commander in a 4 player game where you have to dodge removal from three players? How exactly is that logical?
And the running point here is "I personally". It is okay for you personally to dislike certain cards or certain types of decks. But that does not make a player playing those cards or decks rude. I actually consider it a bit ruder to complain about the unfair card lightning greaves and seemingly wanting to ban it in his or her group rather than find an answer to it.
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Can I like this more than once? Please?
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
Okay, maybe Greaves is a bad example ... that on its own is not so obnoxious. But I have it as part of my 'dislike list' because I tried playing EDH on MTGO a couple of times but I will never do so again because EVERY SINGLE GAME went like this:
Turn 1 – Ornithopter (or some other 0 or 1 drop artifact)
Turns 2 and 3 – find some way to get Lightning Greaves
Turn 4 – Tinker, sac Thopter, Darksteel Forge.
And their commanders were all ones that generated huge advantage every turn. And the only possible thing that could touch them now was anything that exiled artifacts, which meant you had to be playing G or W (this was before Scour from Existence). But like I said, if everyone was playing super competitively, that's fine. I wasn't, so I didn't go back.
But when I'm at my LGS on a Sunday afternoon, and everyone says 'Hey, let's just have a fun game of EDH,' you should know not to run a deck with Greaves, and Forge, and Winter Orb, and Ensnaring Bridge, etc. You know it's going to completely ruin the game for everybody.
So the opponent spent a bunch of cards and played a banned card to make his or her artifacts indestructible instead of just getting a blightsteel and kill you? How come I don't believe you?
Thing is, you claim that it is going to ruin the game for everybody. But only thing that is sure is that it will ruin the game for you. If people can't play with cards such as winter orb that just means that the monogreen rampdeck will win every game.
IMO it is more fun when there is a fight over resources rather than people just playing their cards hoping that their cards are bigger and badderrer than their opponents.
I much prefer my casual fun EDH games to be games with tough decisions, powerful efficient cards and fights for all the different resources.
You still haven't explained why greaves are so evil though, I would very much like to hear your reasoning behind that. I also assume you don't play Sol Ring in your decks either then.
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Okay, then if it wasn't Tinker specifically it was an artifact-tutoring effect that let them go grab Darksteel Forge (I admit the don't remember the exact sequence of cards, I just remember the result). Anyway, I remember knowing right away the game was over.
Like I said, Greaves are not terrible on their own, because you can just destroy them. But when paired with Darksteel Forge, it makes their Commander completely invincible to everything everything except exiling the Greaves, and to exile the Greaves, you basically can only be in certain colours or else have very focussed cards for that purpose.
It warps the meta, because if you know your opponents are doing that you have to completely change your deck just to deal with it and then it's not fun, just entirely reactive.
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
No, people also play to have fun. Especially in a multiplayer environment. If one player is making things extremely un-fun for all the others, I think that's rude. And that person probably knew how his actions would be taken, but didn't care. To me, that's rude.
But seems we'll have to agree to disagree here.
"Casual" and "Competitive" mean very different things to different groups of people. This can put "good" fair decks in an awkward position. For example, I played two games the other day. In the first, I played my Oloro, Ageless Ascetic deck, which is basically just Esper Goodstuff (aka Wrath.dec). It's what I call my "for fun" deck. There's nothing crazy in the deck, but getting wrathed every 5 or so turns made people really annoyed even though it didn't really mean that much in the context of the game. Flip that around, in the second game I was playing with Meren of Clan Nel Toth, which is my "fair competitive" deck, and was absolutely destroyed by a player on like T3 playing Planeswalker Teferi Stax. Of course, some players see Meren and won't even let me play, so I feel kind of in limbo.
My two cents RE: Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots. They're both super fine. So is Darksteel Forge. Tinker is not okay (and is illegal anyway). Also, it helps to slot in some less than terrible answers if the Forge is getting you down; I ended up sticking a Brutalizer Exarch in my Meren list pretty much for that card specifically.
Thing is, you find his playstyle Rude, the next group kisses the ground he walks on for showing them a way to counter the ug combo deck that has been destroying them for the last month. Which archetypes are acceptable are subjective from group to group, and his deck choice does not make him inherently rude. I for one love puzzles, and decks like that create excellent puzzles for the group to figure out. I once got the group out of a darksteel forge/nev disk lock by bouncing the forge in response to the disk after about 5 turns. Was one of the more memorable games I've ever played
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Some people also have fun by playing competitively and trying to win. I, personally, love playing my GAAIV Stax deck, as it can be difficult to pilot correctly, especially with 3 opponents barreling down on me, trying to kill me as fast as possible. I enjoy the challenge of that and find it fun, as I'm sure others do.
Your argument is that people play to have fun, but who are you to judge what someone finds fun?
"Be silent, thou accursed wolf;
Consume within thyself with thine own rage."
-Dante's Inferno (Canto VII)
Sort of agree here, except that if you're playing Stax against three other people playing with stock pre-cons, you're the ONLY one having fun. Commander games should be fun for everyone, not just one of the players. If everyone else is taking 30 second turns and you're taking 10 minute turns, it may be fun for you but not for anyone else.
Again, not an argument against playing a deck, it's just my opinion that you should try to play against similarly competitive decks. Still, if crushing the hopes and dreams of every other EDH player is the reason you play EDH, go for it. Just don't be surprised if people get annoyed.
Well, invincible except to wraths, bounce, evacuations, lighthouse, mass -x effects, just killing him and a few other things.
There is a difference between having to completely change your deck and to realize that it is a good thing to not only put in cards to further your strategy but also cards to answer opposing threats. That is why cards such as Austere Command and Toxic Deluge are considered so good in EDH. They are very versatile answers to a lot of things.
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Rules Advisor
left with someone just sulking at the table saying this and that is unfair.
I remember being the odd man out at friend's EDH night. I didn't have an EDH deck so they let me use my regular one and when I dropped Supreme Verdict everyone there looked at me like I was the worst human being ever, some I would imagine had never even seen a board wipe before.
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
This seems obvious to me too, but some people don't seem to care, or enjoy being the 'bad guy', so whatever.
No point in continuing the argument.
At my shop I normally played with a few guys who were on the same wave length, we kept it competitive in standard and draft play, but EDH was played super casually, in long drawn out games of back and forth fights. This was fun for us.
On one occasion a new guy whom we hadn't played with before joined in, and proceeded to splinter twin combo off in a few turns when he made sure everyone was tapped out. He had fun, we did not.
So to each his own. It's tough but try to find people who like Magic the way you do
Preface: we played a CNS2 draft the night before last and I picked up cards for my two friends. Once we were done drafting and playing, they walked out of my apartment without paying me back or taking the cards they drafted. When I asked them to pay me, they said "Oh, we didn't plan on keeping the cards". It may have been a miscommunication if it were anyone else, but these two friends (they're a couple actually) have a history of cheaping out on things and leaving my wife and I to foot the bill on their behalf. We've also split boxes/fat packs etc with them before only to have them literally say "we'll pay our portion after we see what cards we get because we don't really collect Magic cards and we just want to keep valuable ones to sell them". That's pretty slimy and of course I never let that happen.
Anyway, after the CNS2 thing happened the night before, there was a bit of a clash between us as we hashed out how cheap they were being. Fast forward to last night, and we've got company visiting and we are all doing a special draft: all unhinged packs. Cheapasses A and B only bought 3 packs between them, so we let them draft and play as one person so they could both participate. Anyway, we start the draft and don't Cheapasses A and B sit there with their phones in their faces looking up the value of EVERY SINGLE CARD in each pack before they draft a card from them! I looked at my wife and gave her a face of disgust and she just rolled her eyes. No one said anything to them and thankfully they didn't actually pull anything of value anyway. But come on...that's a scumbag thing to do.
To temper all of this, the girl just told us she won a football pool at work for $170 and recently was paid for a commercial she was in for $3.5k and her boyfriend just got a lump sum from a commercial he did of $7.5k. Neither one of them is hurting for money, but it seems like that's all they care about, even if it means screwing over their friends. Really grinds my gears.
/rant