WotC vs. Magic community

  • #1
    Ok guys and gals, it's official now. From the letter I received today in response to my response to WotC's DMCA takedown letter to Apple:

    "Wizards has committed to removing all of the relatively large number of applications on the iTunes Store that infringe its MAGIC: THE GATHERING(r) copyrights and trademarks in order to protect its intellectual property, and as a fan of the game, we assume you understand and appreciate Wizards' desire to do so."

    They want to kill every iPhone, Android and Windows Mobile MTG application out there.

    Apps affected so far: MTG Tracker, Decked Builder, Decked Drafter, iMtG, MTG Master, Deck Forge, MTG Depot, MTG Tutor and more. I will add them as we learn about them, please let me know.

    As a fan of the game I totally fail to understand this. But I'm not stupid and I understand that some guy within WotC is trying to protect his 'Magic The Gathering Toolbox' app project and killing the competition off is the easiest way to do this. Unfortunately that means we the fans of the game will suffer as an expense of some guy's career.

    A number of Android app has been already taken down as Google reacts to DMCA letters in an automatic way while Apple lets developers respond. Decked apps received takedown notices too. They are after all of us, they want to replace thriving ecosystem of little indie Magic apps with one official app, and they will dictate you what is in it. Card prices will not be in it. Trading tools won't be in it. Scanner won't be in it.

    I'm asking you to help me reach some other guys within WotC to stop this madness. We need to complain loudly but politely that this is not what the fans of Magic understand nor appreciate.

    EDIT2: I believe that we the indie developers have done nothing wrong in the moral sense of the word (with the exception of a few apps who were using the pentagon of colours - and they are removing it as this is the right thing to do) and the moral side of this case is absolutely clear to me.

    What I am asking for is that you the people, the customers and the fans of the game, stand with us and ask WotC in a civil and polite manner to work with indie developers rather than destroy them. From my reply to the lawyers' DMCA takedown letter: "I understand that you are not perfectly happy with iMtG as it is and I am looking forward to working with you to change it to a form acceptable by you. I understand that you are worried about possible confusion as to whether I am in any way associated with Wizards and I will add appropriate notice to the app description in App Store and on my website to remove any possible confusion ASAP. (...) Let's work together to resolve the problems in a civilised way, rather than use brute force and DMCA notices, please.".

    EDIT3: We want to be left alone, the same way as magiccards.info, TCGplayer.com, mtgsalvation.com and many, many others.

    We are doing nothing different than them. We provide card database as a reference utility, we sell Magic cards through our apps, we provide commentary and criticism platform for the fans. Not all of us do all three of the above, but most of us do at least two.

    We ask WotC to stop their lawyers from killing our apps and instead work with us as community members who provide valuable service for their customers. We are not enemies of WotC, we are friends and we would like to be treated as such.

    EDIT: Could everyone download the official app and rate it one star with a comment such as 'Please stop killing mobile MTG apps. Stop your lawyers, we want our apps back!'.

    WotC official app: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/magic-the-gathering-toolbox/id491192015?mt=8

    This will give them something to think about but at the same time we will not have to spam good people at Wizards.

    While at it, please vote other reviews with 'Please stop killing mobile MTG apps. Stop your lawyers, we want our apps back!' up so other people are more likely to see our action. You know, 'Was this review helpful?' thing. You can easily find them by checking most critical reviews.


    Moderators: please keep this thread here. This is not only about iMtG and other mobile apps. From the lawyer's letter: "Unfortunately, the only acceptable resolution of this matter is for you to remove those items from your app which we identified in our original notice as infringing Wizards' copyrights and trademarks: (1) the "MTG" trademark in the app name; (2) the abstracted version of Wizards' "Pentagon of Colors" in the icon for your app; and (3) the card art and creative content of the MAGIC: THE GATHERING(r) cards, which may not be copied, displayed or distributed either within the app, in the screenshots in the iTunes Store, or via the application."

    You can clearly see that MTG is contained in the name of this forum the same way as it is contained in iMtG (and dozens of other mobile apps and hundreds of websites). You can see that iMtG logo is as close to the pentagon of colours as is the logo of this site. And you know that this forum contains the creative content and art of the cards the same way the mobile apps contain them. If they manage to kill mobile apps, they may decide to kill this forum, the very same way. Please help to stop this madness.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by Piotr: 2/4/2012 1:25:46 AM
    iMtG - Probably the best MTG toolbox app for iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/imtg-ii/id736075015?mt=8
  • #2
    Their interest is driven down by Hasbro, and based on the necessity of protecting thier intellectual property. As your app doesn't provide a community, it really doesn't do much of value to them, save use asset they created, own and have copyrighted, and thus must vigoriously protect.

    Considering both yourself and Wizards have an inherent bias, I'm pretty sure that that it's pretty easy to see that the right is with the people who actually own the IP, and not someone who's using all of those various rules, assets and trademarks.

    This is not a matter of free speech. This is not a matter of "I didn't speak out when they came for the "X", and now there's noone left to stand for me".

    You're using their assets in a product you made, that's going to be in direct competition with a product they're going to make. It'd be foolish to NOT expect a cease and desist now.
  • #3
    If I were a company, I'd be weighing "free advertising for our product" versus "control of my intellectual property." Some companies, like Disney, put more emphasis on the control part and can be very vicious about it, while others not so much. Hasbro seems to be somewhere in between.

    And you know that this forum contains the creative content and art of the cards the same way the mobile apps contain them... If they manage to kill mobile apps, they may decide to kill this forum, the very same way. Please help to stop this madness.
    Yes, maybe they could try. However, sites like mtgs weigh very heavily on the "free advertising" side of the scale. And if you notice, even MTGS is careful about using artwork. The logo up there is not MTG's logo, and the samurai chick is not any of the artwork in any of the cards.

    An app on the other hand? On the "free advertising" part of the scale, its pretty light, certainly not on the same weight as MTGS. They likely simply concluded that the free advertising the app product generates is not worth the loss of control over their IP. You can argue till the cows come home about iMTG's logo being like MTGS, but at the end of the day iMTG simply doesn't generate as much revenue for Wizards/Hasbro as MTGS does.

    So, I'm not surprised.

    Besides, while the app is free...
    In the built-in Shop you can unlock optional functionality




    Top In-App Purchases
    1. Multiple Decks$1.99
    2. All$9.99
    3. Card rulings$0.99
    4. Offline Cache$1.99
    5. No Ads$0.99
    6. Upgrade to All$6.99
    7. Scanner$4.99
    8. Upgrade to All$7.99
    9. Upgrade to All$8.99
    10. Upgrade to All$4.99
    ... Unless I'm missing something, full functionality isn't. Yeah, I can definitely imagine why Hasbro/Wizards is paying attention.
    Last edited by mondu_the_fat: 1/31/2012 5:13:15 PM

    "Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn

  • #4
    I am of two minds on this.... So I will expalin my view

    1) Is the publisher Charging for this "app"

    IF yes

    Then WOTC is compleatly within there right too AX them hard, They own MTG and someone is making money off there multimillion investment

    IF NO

    WOTC is being a big DBAG, I would question if this borders on fair use since no money is being made, and it make your players happy why mess with it? not costing you money its adding too your players experance.
    Stats About Mythics
    -Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
    (old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
    -They are printing more new cards a year not less
    (about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
    -To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
    -In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
    I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
  • #6
    This is NOT about iMtG. I just happened to start this topic. This is about every single mobile app which is a MTG card pricelist / database / deck builder.

    I know that the biggest Android app which was already killed had 200 thousand downloads. iMtG had close to 50 thousand downloads, and is a 5 star app in the US app store with over 800 reviews. Decked is one of the oldest and most loved MTG apps for iOS and Mac, written by the legend who wrote Apprentice as well.

    iMtG is free with optional in app purchases. All the Android apps that we know of which were already taken down were free, and a lot of the apps that we know they are targeting in Apple store are free as well.
    iMtG - Probably the best MTG toolbox app for iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/imtg-ii/id736075015?mt=8
  • #7
    Quote from draftguy2
    IF NO

    WOTC is being a big DBAG, I would question if this borders on fair use since no money is being made, and it make your players happy why mess with it? not costing you money its adding too your players experance.
    Trademark owners must be vigilant to protect them. If they don't, they risk losing their trademark as it becomes generic. For example, Asprin, or Escalator. Both originally trademarks, now generic in part because the company owning the mark did not prevent their use outside their own brand.

    Genericizing "Magic: the Gathering" seems unlikely, I admit. But Hasbro/Wizards does not do it because they want to be mean.

    Quote from Ghrom
    I know that the biggest Android app which was already killed had 200 thousand downloads.
    What app are you referring to? The most widely used Android app I know of is M:tG Tracker, which is still up and running. v4.1 removed all WotC images (now there's a red dot instead of the red mana symbol), but AFAIK it was never removed from the market.
    Last edited by Lithl: 1/31/2012 5:15:06 PM
  • #8
    Quote from draftguy2

    WOTC is being a big DBAG, I would question if this borders on fair use since no money is being made, and it make your players happy why mess with it? not costing you money its adding too your players experance.


    While the potential for profit is one of the things taken into account when deciding when something is fair use, it's not the only one, and "whether it makes people happy" definitely doesn't have anything to do with it.

    You can't just say "well, I'm not making money off it, therefore it's automatically fair use." Issues like affecting the market for the copyrighted work and the amount of the copyrighted work being reproduced are also considerations.
    I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
  • #9
    Quote from Lithl
    What app are you referring to? The most widely used Android app I know of is M:tG Tracker, which is still up and running. v4.1 removed all WotC images (now there's a red dot instead of the red mana symbol), but AFAIK it was never removed from the market.


    The Lite, free version of it.
    iMtG - Probably the best MTG toolbox app for iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/imtg-ii/id736075015?mt=8
  • #10
    To the OP, do you have any responses to their actual objections, or are you just hoping that sufficient backlash will stop their campaign? To put it another way, do you believe for some reason that you're not violating their trademarks, or do you believe for some reason that you should be allowed to violate their trademarks?
  • #11
    As someone who has a couple MTG related apps in the iOS app store, this really pisses me off. If they were serious about it, they should have taken a stance from the beginning. If they start now it's pretty obvious that it's because they finally have an app of their own. Because they have not taken action before now, I would think/hope that they've set the precedent that it's ok.

    I talked to Mark Rosewater at Worlds '08 and showed him an app I was working on at the time: essentially Gatherer on the iPhone. I asked about an official WotC app and was told (paraphrasing from memory) "We don't make iPhone apps and our customer are smart people, including a lot of programmers: we'll let them make the apps".

    If they pursue this course of action in a SOPA type way, none of the online retailers are safe. It would pretty much shut down the secondary card market. (I'm not sure how the "authorized internet retailer status interacts with this) Online content sites? They could be targets as well.

    I fully understand and agree with them protecting their IP by taking on people making counterfeit cards because **they make their money making cards**. I disagree with them taking on people that are creating things that support and feed the community. Using their images and text in apps in no way deprives them of any income at all.

    Unfortunately for iOS app makers (myself included) the app store is a central control point. If Apple decides an app is to be removed, that's it as far as official distribution goes. I can see more and more MTG players jail breaking their devices along with app makers providing apps that go around the app store.
  • #12
    Quote from Viricide
    To the OP, do you have any responses to their actual objections, or are you just hoping that sufficient backlash will stop their campaign? To put it another way, do you believe for some reason that you're not violating their trademarks, or do you believe for some reason that you should be allowed to violate their trademarks?


    I believe they have no claim to "MTG" as their trademark.

    I believe my logo is far enough from the pentagon to be not infringing their trademark.

    I believe there are a number of apps which use pentagon in their logos in an obvious way and those apps should change their logos.

    I believe we should be allowed to use card images and ship databases containing card rules in our mobile and computer apps, as long as we do not interfere with the WotC core business which is the game. Any app which is a game of Magic should be rightfully killed. Not if it's a reference or utility helping the players to play their game.
    iMtG - Probably the best MTG toolbox app for iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/imtg-ii/id736075015?mt=8
  • #13
    Well said. My reference to making cards being their business applies to the gameplay (specifically digital).

    So, where does that put things like Apprentice and Cockatrice, etc? You could argue they just let people move card images around, but they are replacing playing the game with paper cards or on MTGO. There's definitely some grey area there.
  • #14
    Quote from mondu_the_fat
    Besides, while the app is free...

    Quote:
    In the built-in Shop you can unlock optional functionality

    Quote:
    Top In-App Purchases
    1. Multiple Decks$1.99
    2. All$9.99
    3. Card rulings$0.99
    4. Offline Cache$1.99
    5. No Ads$0.99
    6. Upgrade to All$6.99
    7. Scanner$4.99
    8. Upgrade to All$7.99
    9. Upgrade to All$8.99
    10. Upgrade to All$4.99
    ... Unless I'm missing something, full functionality isn't. Yeah, I can definitely imagine why Hasbro/Wizards is paying attention.
    i would have to agree. this kinda makes it no longer a free app, but selling something based off someone else's copyright/ip/whatever. expect to be hassled.
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  • #15
    I'd be entirely in agreement with you if it weren't for the fact that WotC is releasing their own app now. Letting app developers fill the void while they went through the corporate product development process is one thing. Letting those developers keep their third-party apps on the market when the first-party app is around is another. Protecting IP isn't personal for a corporation - they don't do it out of spite, they do it because IP is only protected in the US to the degree that the IP holder defends it. Therefore, not going after the apps means they would lose all control over what sort of MTG apps people put out, and they simply can't let that happen. Your app might be on every smartphone in WotC HQ. It might see constant use by MaRo himself. But WotC still can't allow it to exist as long as they plan on having a first-party presence on the app market.

    If I were you, Ghrom, I'd angle for a job in Hasbro. Loads of people in the company have a strong social media presence, and I would be seriously surprised if you don't have more than a few fans in the company that could put you in touch with the right people. Moreover, the card scanner is a killer feature that WotC's app doesn't have, and I'd be extremely surprised if they wouldn't be interested in adding that functionality... especially since you can demonstrate that it can be monetized as a premium feature within a free app. This isn't a time to take their takedown notice personally, this is your foot in the door of a dream job. Remember, the first guy to root an iPhone is now working at Apple. Wink
  • #16
    You knew this was eventually going to happen, especially since you were profiteering from their business without a license.

    Even if there were no Apps on the various app stores this would be an act of brand protection by WoTC, which is a basic legal maneuver.

    Given that a large percentage of MTG apps on the app store are actually garbage (or worse, useless ripoffs), it's logical for them to remove them to control the customer experience. Especially now they are releasing their own app.
  • #17
    Kind of wonder if SCG will get a cease and desist for their app. Doubt it though, since they do more for promoting Magic than WOTC these days.
  • #18
    Quote from Sweeney
    Their interest is driven down by Hasbro, and based on the necessity of protecting thier intellectual property. As your app doesn't provide a community, it really doesn't do much of value to them, save use asset they created, own and have copyrighted, and thus must vigoriously protect.

    Considering both yourself and Wizards have an inherent bias, I'm pretty sure that that it's pretty easy to see that the right is with the people who actually own the IP, and not someone who's using all of those various rules, assets and trademarks.

    This is not a matter of free speech. This is not a matter of "I didn't speak out when they came for the "X", and now there's noone left to stand for me".

    You're using their assets in a product you made, that's going to be in direct competition with a product they're going to make. It'd be foolish to NOT expect a cease and desist now.


    Could they not use the same procedure to attempt to shut down a site like magiccards.info, which displays card images? Certainly, they could use the same argument for tcgplayer.com, which also uses copyrighted mana images, and they could target starcitygames.com for using card images, copyrighted logos, and mana symbols.

    They haven't, which means they acknowledge these properties can be used legitimately, even as part of a financial product. I think a similar understanding could be applied to MTG apps; the money is not being made off the display of the copyrighted images; the display is only to facilitate the function of the product, and none of the functions appear to infringe on the things I would expect Hasbro to have copyrights, patents or trademarks on.
  • #19
    Quote from Wander

    They haven't, which means they acknowledge these properties can be used legitimately, even as part of a financial product. I think a similar understanding could be applied to MTG apps; the money is not being made off the display of the copyrighted images; the display is only to facilitate the function of the product, and none of the functions appear to infringe on the things I would expect Hasbro to have copyrights, patents or trademarks on.


    If they are using the trademark without permission, it can be considered infringement. Whether they are making money or not is only part of copyright infringement.
    Level 2 Judge.
  • #20
    Quote from shadowhunter483
    If they are using the trademark without permission, it can be considered infringement. Whether they are making money or not is only part of copyright infringement.


    True, but the point is that they have elected not to claim infringement in these cases despite having an equally strong case.
  • #21
    Quote from Wander
    Could they not use the same procedure to attempt to shut down a site like magiccards.info, which displays card images? Certainly, they could use the same argument for tcgplayer.com, which also uses copyrighted mana images, and they could target starcitygames.com for using card images, copyrighted logos, and mana symbols.

    They haven't, which means they acknowledge these properties can be used legitimately, even as part of a financial product. I think a similar understanding could be applied to MTG apps; the money is not being made off the display of the copyrighted images; the display is only to facilitate the function of the product, and none of the functions appear to infringe on the things I would expect Hasbro to have copyrights, patents or trademarks on.


    I don't know how they view magiccards.info and the like, but I believe the TCGplayer/SCG example is due to the fact that stores selling MTG are given a certain amount of permission to advertise the product. Otherwise how would they be expected to sell a product that they can't show association with, or talk about?
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  • #22
    The reality is, the apps were infringing uses and in general were not within the fair use criteria in 17 USC § 107. If you are a developer and you think you are within fair use or noninfringing use, take WOTC to court. Maybe you'll win. But for the rest of you saying WOTC are jerks or whatever for doing this: Put a sock in it. WOTC HAS to defend their copyrights and trademarks aggressively or the protection granted by those properties and marks becomes weaker against future infringements.

    The foregoing is not legal advice.

    EDIT: In response to Parinoid, generally stores can display images of their merchandise without running afoul of copyright law. Technically this means they shouldn't be able to use actual graphics of logos and cards. Photographs or scans of cards, boxes, packs, etc, are 100% fair game to use as product identification. Not sure how magiccards.info and so on are getting past this -- it may have something to do with MSE, or perhaps somewhere along the supply chain there is a licensed entity and that license covers downstream usage -- but even if they are in the wrong and being left alone, there is no guarantee they will be left alone in perpetuity.

    EDIT 2: Folks, it doesn't matter if it's free. An infringing use can be free and still not be fair use. Read 17 USC § 107. Then read the case of Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music. It is a balancing test of multiple factors and ultimately it's up to a court whether your use is infringing -- which is expensive and which is the reason why most publishers shy away from even POTENTIAL infringement rather than risk litigation.

    EDIT 3:
    Quote from Wander
    Could they not use the same procedure to attempt to shut down a site like magiccards.info, which displays card images? They haven't, which means they acknowledge these properties can be used legitimately, even as part of a financial product.


    It means no such thing. It may mean nothing more than that WOTC legal is saving up their efforts and building a case so as to eradicate magiccards.info in one shot. Lawyers have a saying coined in the book "A Civil Action," and it goes something like this: "If you're going to hit someone, hit them once, and so hard they won't be able to get up again." I would not rest easily at all if I were the owner of that website.
    Last edited by Ross Edwards: 1/31/2012 11:34:14 PM
  • #23
    Quote from Ross Edwards
    It means no such thing. It may mean nothing more than that WOTC legal is saving up their efforts and building a case so as to eradicate magiccards.info in one shot. Lawyers have a saying coined in the book "A Civil Action," and it goes something like this: "If you're going to hit someone, hit them once, and so hard they won't be able to get up again." I would not rest easily at all if I were the owner of that website.


    Hannes? He owns this forum too :p
    http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Hannes

    Quote from Sir Auros
    Kind of wonder if SCG will get a cease and desist for their app. Doubt it though, since they do more for promoting Magic than WOTC these days.


    They didn't. Which just shows you that this is all about the money, ignoring community. SCG Mobile is 4/4.5 star app with total 149 ratings, and the power of SCG marketing machine stands behind it. Compare it to iMtG's full 5 star with 811 ratings. Decked Builder is full 4.5 with 170 ratings.
    Last edited by Piotr: 2/1/2012 11:22:34 AM
    iMtG - Probably the best MTG toolbox app for iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/imtg-ii/id736075015?mt=8
  • #24
    I will not comment on the legal side of things, other than to say that they have a right to at least try to protect their trademark, if anyone takes them to court and wins, then they have to back down.

    On this PR side of things, this does not look like it will end well for WotC/Hasbro. You may get more money/ control over IP by doing this, but at what cost? When I heard that they were coming out with an app for phones, I wondered if it would be the death knell for others, and I guess it is. I certainly have a lower opinion of them after this.

    Yet, people who make these decisions are much smarter about how to run a business then 99% of us on this forum, so I (and the stockholders) would certainly think they thought about the ramifications first.
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  • #25
    Quote from Overheat
    Yet, people who make these decisions are much smarter about how to run a business then 99% of us on this forum, so I (and the stockholders) would certainly think they thought about the ramifications first.


    You would be surprised. I'm just in a process of leaving a big multinational corporation to start my own business. The amount of red tape, politicking, pc, h&s overkill and multitude of other avatars of stupidity you experience working for one of the big ones leaves you with little doubt about how little wisdom is used in the process of running those things.
    iMtG - Probably the best MTG toolbox app for iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/imtg-ii/id736075015?mt=8
  • #26
    Quote from Ghrom
    You would be surprised. I'm just in a process of leaving a big multinational corporation to start my own business. The amount of red tape, politicking, pc, h&s overkill and multitude of other avatars of stupidity you experience working for one of the big ones leaves you with little doubt about how little wisdom is used in the process of running those things.


    If you're starting your own business with some type of IP involved, how would you feel about someone distributing your IP for profit? That's what you've done with Wizards IP. It doesn't matter that you have a 5 star rating, you used someone else's IP to make money, and I do have a problem with that. I stand behind wizards 100% on their decision to shut you down. It's not personal at all, I completely understand where they are coming from. Especially since you would be using your stolen IP to directly compete with their IP. If it was completely free and infringed as little as possible while providing a community service, we would have a different argument. MTGTracker is basically a utility, and a free one at that.

    Regarding SCG: you're reaching, hard. SCG has been given permission by WotC to use their IP and they make WotC a lot of money. Also, SCG is a store selling product shipped to them by WotC, they have several fair use rights in place in displaying their product.

    This isn't WotC vs the Magic community. This is WotC vs you and you're trying to make it out to be more than it is. I'm sorry you were only able to make money off stolen IP for so long.
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