So there already is a 4/5 for GGG in Leatherback Baloth. For a 5/4 you can pay RWG for Wooly Thoctr. We all know and prefer a 5/4 over a 4/5. WGR is a tough cost but you get the benefit of a better body. So, Do you think a 5/4 for GGG is reasonable to print even though itll be "easier" to cast and there already is a 4/5 for the same cost?
a 5/4 for GGG would be completely fine. Still not as good as tarmogoyf.
I dunno, I think a 5/4 for GGG is pushing it. A 5/4 kills you a whole turn faster than 4/5. Also, with green being the color of big creatures, I would think thier toughness would be high. Taking out a little green and adding a dash of the boros aggro colors would make sense to make it a 5/4 IMHO
I wouldn't play it if they printed a vanilla 5/4 for GGG, because they've already printed a bigger creature with trample and an easier casting cost.
And then there's always a bigger guy for 1 less. The wonderful 'Goyf. Between the two, 5/4 for GGG seems, meh.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Odds of pulling a JtMS from a WWK pack: 1:80
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
I think everyone has made a good point. There is no danger to wizards printing a 5/4 for GGG, as it would barely be played. If anything, it may spawn a monogreen deck in standard/block based on what was legal at the time.
It would be great for the casual Timmy and new players though!
I personally dislike the idea of making creatures 'Bigger and Better' on a consistent basis. I started magic playing against Rhox and Avatar of Might, Force of Nature, and others.... it just makes my heart die a little more every time those cards just....don't shine as much.
but on a serious note, power creep exists, and it's always incrememntal. If we get a 5/4 for GGG, what's next? a 5/4 for GG? a 5/2 for GG? or a 6/6 for GGG? The power level is being toned down in Innistrad quite a bit, which makes me very happy, and I'd personally like to see it not escalate in power again to Zendikar levels. Which I know will happen eventually, but I just don't want to see that day.
Or they could print a GGG 3/3 with a cool ability instead of just being a vanilla 5/4. And have the ability not be ridiculous to start powercreeping up the scale until another jace, the mind sculptor happens.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I think it would be reasonable in the current Standard. Dismember has done a lot to redefine what an acceptable creature is. It's hard to complain about a 3-drop that can be answered for 1.
I also feel like dying a little when I see power creep. It's as if wizards noticed that no one plays 7+ cc creatures compeditively, so they just pump thier power as much as possible (Dark Ascension dragon makes me sad ).
I think it would be reasonable in the current Standard. Dismember has done a lot to redefine what an acceptable creature is. It's hard to complain about a 3-drop that can be answered for 1.
This is a big reason why I hate ridiculous removal like Dismember (and previously before that Path to Exile) -- creatures are forced to get stronger if removal gets more powerful so that they can keep up. The reverse also holds true; if creatures get stronger, then removal has to get stronger as well. You can see this triggers a horrible positive feedback loop of stronger creatures -> stronger removal -> even stronger creatures -> even stronger removal that had been going on for the last few years now.
People say that power creep needs to be curbed on creatures as well, and I completely agree. However, the same should hold true for removal. The fact that any deck can run a colorless, instant-speed, brutally efficient, and unconditional removal card like Dismember should mean that something has gone wrong. The quest to create fun and powerful cards should not come at the expense of spitting on the fundamentals of Magic like the color pie.
This is a big reason why I hate ridiculous removal like Dismember (and previously before that Path to Exile) -- creatures are forced to get stronger if removal gets more powerful so that they can keep up. The reverse also holds true; if creatures get stronger, then removal has to get stronger as well. You can see this triggers a horrible positive feedback loop of stronger creatures -> stronger removal -> even stronger creatures -> even stronger removal that had been going on for the last few years now.
People say that power creep needs to be curbed on creatures as well, and I completely agree. However, the same should hold true for removal. The fact that any deck can run a colorless, instant-speed, brutally efficient, and unconditional removal card like Dismember should mean that something has gone wrong. The quest to create fun and powerful cards should not come at the expense of spitting on the fundamentals of Magic like the color pie.
I don't want to derail the conversation too much, but I completely understand where you're coming from. I don't think Path is as big of an issue since it's common for White to have efficient removal (Condemn before PtE, for example). Making that kind of efficient removal colorless is where it becomes hairy and a tough issue for me. I love Dismember but I'm not sure it's good for the game.
More on topic, I agree with Barl that I'd far rather see power pushed in the direction of better abilities rather than bigger vanilla beaters. At least give them Trample
I personally dislike the idea of making creatures 'Bigger and Better' on a consistent basis. I started magic playing against Rhox and Avatar of Might, Force of Nature, and others.... it just makes my heart die a little more every time those cards just....don't shine as much.
but on a serious note, power creep exists, and it's always incrememntal. If we get a 5/4 for GGG, what's next? a 5/4 for GG? a 5/2 for GG? or a 6/6 for GGG? The power level is being toned down in Innistrad quite a bit, which makes me very happy, and I'd personally like to see it not escalate in power again to Zendikar levels. Which I know will happen eventually, but I just don't want to see that day.
Yes power creep is sad but I think the truth is that this hypothetical card would be worse than many cards that already exist.
A 5/4 for 1G? That would be power creep and unchartered territory but 5/4 for GGG is very meh.
I think something like a 4/5 for GG or 1G with Imperiosaur's ability could be interesting.
This is a big reason why I hate ridiculous removal like Dismember (and previously before that Path to Exile) -- creatures are forced to get stronger if removal gets more powerful so that they can keep up. The reverse also holds true; if creatures get stronger, then removal has to get stronger as well. You can see this triggers a horrible positive feedback loop of stronger creatures -> stronger removal -> even stronger creatures -> even stronger removal that had been going on for the last few years now.
People say that power creep needs to be curbed on creatures as well, and I completely agree. However, the same should hold true for removal. The fact that any deck can run a colorless, instant-speed, brutally efficient, and unconditional removal card like Dismember should mean that something has gone wrong. The quest to create fun and powerful cards should not come at the expense of spitting on the fundamentals of Magic like the color pie.
Yeah but Swords to Plowshares was around form the start and it's one of the best by far. Dismember is new because it is so good for non-white but I don't think removal is that much better now than it used to be.
Between StP and today though there were times were removal was real bad.
Yes power creep is sad but I think the truth is that this hypothetical card would be worse than many cards that already exist.
A 5/4 for 1G? That would be power creep and unchartered territory but 5/4 for GGG is very meh.
I think something like a 4/5 for GG or 1G with Imperiosaur's ability could be interesting.
I think the ability creeping is even worse. A simple 5/4 for GG(G) fits the color pie to a T, even if it was rare to boot. Throw on extra abilities to boot and it just gets ridiculous. (Looking at your Prime Time. 6/6 for 6 that gets two lands of any tpe by existing? Ugh)
The thing is it's a very slippery slope. Once you get something like Primeval Titan that defines the 'High End' of green creatures and has become the bar to beat...well...where do you draw the line? I personally think that card, (Among others) should never have been printed. Whenever you get a card that is an Auto-include it stagnates creative thinking, because any G deck without The Titan is simply worse. (Ok, not true in some contexts, but you get my point)
A 5/4 for GGG would be totally ok IMO. Leatherback Baloth doesn't see much play in any format, mostly because mono green is not strong enough, the same is true for Phyrexian Obliterator and mono black. A 5/4 for 1GG might be pushing it in standard, but ok for Legacy and probably for Modern. Damn I'd even dare to say a 5/4 for 2G would be ok for Legacy because of Tarmogoyf.
I don't like the power creep at all, because it makes older cards outdated in eternal formats, and that means our inversions in magic have a time of expiration, but luckily, judging by the power level of Innistrad, it seems like the creature power creep is reaching its maximum. And it was about time, when I saw things like Phyrexian Obliterator was like "da fuk is this" haha. I hope the titans become the peak of power for a long time, they make sooo much old cards outdated, good old Rhox is sad
And it was about time, when I saw things like Phyrexian Obliterator was like "da fuk is this" haha. I hope the titans become the peak of power for a long time, they make sooo much old cards outdated, good old Rhox is sad
Yeah, exactly. Stuff like Phyrexian Obliterator is insane but that card still isn't even good enough to be played.
Dismember plays a key role in why obliterator isn't playable. The moment obliterator becomes a commonplace card, everyone will break out dismembers because ANY DECK CAN PLAY THE CARD. It doesn't matter what color you are; you can be mono green and have swords to plowshares quality removal in the form of dismember because the card is ridiculous. Dismember is just ridiculous on so many levels, I wish they had never printed the card. The card is simply ridiculous.
I guess wilt leaf cavaliers is like that hypothetical 3/3 for GGG I mentioned only it's a 3/4 and the ability is super meh outside limited; in constructed I can remember the card being essentially an attacking wall but even in standard people were just running plumeveil because that card was ridiculous lol flash in this plumeveil and kill your dude and still have this 4/4 flier leftover. What offense do you have no lol.
There was a 5/4 for 2GG. Wild leotau was a house in limited; I thought the card was going to be awful but I ate crow that card was a house in shards limited and if you were playing green you very much wanted wild leotau in your deck generally. But in constructed obviously a 5/4 for 2GG is quite awful when you could be doing much powerful things like casting ajani vengeant or elspeth.
I wish WotC would nerf the game as a whole but sadly that doesn't sell their cardboard crack apparently printing broken planeswalkers' is money in their pocket. I would love for powercreep to be reset to invasion or ravnica or something because both those sets were simply incredibly fun to play with and every time I hear the question "what was the best standard environment" question asked of people they always seem to mention ravnica as being fun and diverse.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I think the ability creeping is even worse. A simple 5/4 for GG(G) fits the color pie to a T, even if it was rare to boot. Throw on extra abilities to boot and it just gets ridiculous. (Looking at your Prime Time. 6/6 for 6 that gets two lands of any tpe by existing? Ugh)
The thing is it's a very slippery slope. Once you get something like Primeval Titan that defines the 'High End' of green creatures and has become the bar to beat...well...where do you draw the line? I personally think that card, (Among others) should never have been printed. Whenever you get a card that is an Auto-include it stagnates creative thinking, because any G deck without The Titan is simply worse. (Ok, not true in some contexts, but you get my point)
Solution? I'm going to buy a set of something older. Mercadian Masques, Invasion....something to get me that old tingly feeling again.
Sadpanda.
I couldn't agree any more. There was an old, old article that talked about not wanting to obsolete cards, but it's inevitable when you set to impress others. i saw Garruk's Companion (which is really good) be toppled by Strangleroot Geist. When maro was asked if undying is just a different aspect of persist, he was like, nope, it's just plain better. That feels like the sentiment with most of these sets.
Anyway, because of my disposition I think a GGG for 5/4 (while acceptable at the current R&D standards) is simply pushing the envelope too far. A 5/5 for a 4cmc is kind of the pinnacle of power, so getting a 5/4 for one mana cheaper seems a tad insane.
Well for the people who say a 5/4 for GGG is insane, is it that much different than a 4/5 for the same cost which has/had little to no impact at all competitively?
Also, they already printed a 5/4 for 3cc in wooly thoctar. Is it that much more broken to print it in an inferior mono color when its in superior zoo colors already?
I think it would be acceptable with the Imperiosaur drawback or the Juzam Djinn drawback. Just a vanilla 5/4 for GGG would be crossing the line. Then again, I thought 4/5 for GGG was crossing the line. I want to stop this kind of power creep, not encourage it.
I think it would be acceptable with the Imperiosaur drawback or the Juzam Djinn drawback. Just a vanilla 5/4 for GGG would be crossing the line. Then again, I thought 4/5 for GGG was crossing the line. I want to stop this kind of power creep, not encourage it.
This. Whatever happened to printing Drawbacks? Seriously. If Prime Time and Co. had something along the lines of Fading or 'whenever this creature attacks or blocks X bad happens' it wouldn't be nearly so bad.
But the sheer awesomeness of certain creatures with absolutely -no- drawbacks is making other cards simply unplayable in any format. Heck, I got ridiculed the other day for running Silvos, Rogue Elemental because it (Guess what!) Dies to dismember.
I'm very ready for things to come back down to a 8-15 turn average competitive game instead of the 4 turn blitzkriegs we have now.
Actually it's been said repeatedly that the cost of RGW is less restrictive than GGG. If you make GGG, that means your deck is probably monogreen (or the format has REALLY GOOD manafixing, but probably you're monogreen). That means your deck is weak to "traditional" green hosers, such as fliers, countermagic, and sweepers, and you have to twist your deck a bit to make it work against those threats. If you're playing GWR, you have weenies in W, fatties in G, and reach/removal in R (W also has a bit more heavy-handed removal). Therefore your deck is much more diversified and therefore better.
So GGG is actually a harder manacost than RGW. If they can make a RGW 5/4, they certainly can make a GGG 5/4.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
It's all relative.
I dunno, I think a 5/4 for GGG is pushing it. A 5/4 kills you a whole turn faster than 4/5. Also, with green being the color of big creatures, I would think thier toughness would be high. Taking out a little green and adding a dash of the boros aggro colors would make sense to make it a 5/4 IMHO
And then there's always a bigger guy for 1 less. The wonderful 'Goyf. Between the two, 5/4 for GGG seems, meh.
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
It would be great for the casual Timmy and new players though!
but on a serious note, power creep exists, and it's always incrememntal. If we get a 5/4 for GGG, what's next? a 5/4 for GG? a 5/2 for GG? or a 6/6 for GGG? The power level is being toned down in Innistrad quite a bit, which makes me very happy, and I'd personally like to see it not escalate in power again to Zendikar levels. Which I know will happen eventually, but I just don't want to see that day.
:symb::symr: Malfegor :symb::symr:
:symu::symu: Sakashima the Imposter :symu::symu:
:symw::symw: Darien, King of Kjeldor :symw::symw:
:symr::symr: Ashling the Pilgrim :symr::symr:
:1mana::1mana: (Placeholder) :1mana::1mana:
Currently Playing:
Retired
well, Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers is the closest I can think of.
I also feel like dying a little when I see power creep. It's as if wizards noticed that no one plays 7+ cc creatures compeditively, so they just pump thier power as much as possible (Dark Ascension dragon makes me sad ).
Come to the blue side, we have cookies!
This is a big reason why I hate ridiculous removal like Dismember (and previously before that Path to Exile) -- creatures are forced to get stronger if removal gets more powerful so that they can keep up. The reverse also holds true; if creatures get stronger, then removal has to get stronger as well. You can see this triggers a horrible positive feedback loop of stronger creatures -> stronger removal -> even stronger creatures -> even stronger removal that had been going on for the last few years now.
People say that power creep needs to be curbed on creatures as well, and I completely agree. However, the same should hold true for removal. The fact that any deck can run a colorless, instant-speed, brutally efficient, and unconditional removal card like Dismember should mean that something has gone wrong. The quest to create fun and powerful cards should not come at the expense of spitting on the fundamentals of Magic like the color pie.
I don't want to derail the conversation too much, but I completely understand where you're coming from. I don't think Path is as big of an issue since it's common for White to have efficient removal (Condemn before PtE, for example). Making that kind of efficient removal colorless is where it becomes hairy and a tough issue for me. I love Dismember but I'm not sure it's good for the game.
More on topic, I agree with Barl that I'd far rather see power pushed in the direction of better abilities rather than bigger vanilla beaters. At least give them Trample
Yes power creep is sad but I think the truth is that this hypothetical card would be worse than many cards that already exist.
A 5/4 for 1G? That would be power creep and unchartered territory but 5/4 for GGG is very meh.
I think something like a 4/5 for GG or 1G with Imperiosaur's ability could be interesting.
Yeah but Swords to Plowshares was around form the start and it's one of the best by far. Dismember is new because it is so good for non-white but I don't think removal is that much better now than it used to be.
Between StP and today though there were times were removal was real bad.
I think the ability creeping is even worse. A simple 5/4 for GG(G) fits the color pie to a T, even if it was rare to boot. Throw on extra abilities to boot and it just gets ridiculous. (Looking at your Prime Time. 6/6 for 6 that gets two lands of any tpe by existing? Ugh)
The thing is it's a very slippery slope. Once you get something like Primeval Titan that defines the 'High End' of green creatures and has become the bar to beat...well...where do you draw the line? I personally think that card, (Among others) should never have been printed. Whenever you get a card that is an Auto-include it stagnates creative thinking, because any G deck without The Titan is simply worse. (Ok, not true in some contexts, but you get my point)
And this whole situation makes me more sad than someone Swords to Plowshare'ing my Rhox.
Solution? I'm going to buy a set of something older. Mercadian Masques, Invasion....something to get me that old tingly feeling again.
Sadpanda.
:symb::symr: Malfegor :symb::symr:
:symu::symu: Sakashima the Imposter :symu::symu:
:symw::symw: Darien, King of Kjeldor :symw::symw:
:symr::symr: Ashling the Pilgrim :symr::symr:
:1mana::1mana: (Placeholder) :1mana::1mana:
I don't like the power creep at all, because it makes older cards outdated in eternal formats, and that means our inversions in magic have a time of expiration, but luckily, judging by the power level of Innistrad, it seems like the creature power creep is reaching its maximum. And it was about time, when I saw things like Phyrexian Obliterator was like "da fuk is this" haha. I hope the titans become the peak of power for a long time, they make sooo much old cards outdated, good old Rhox is sad
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
5/4 for 2GG or 1GGG would not even be close to playable outside of limited.
Yeah, exactly. Stuff like Phyrexian Obliterator is insane but that card still isn't even good enough to be played.
I guess wilt leaf cavaliers is like that hypothetical 3/3 for GGG I mentioned only it's a 3/4 and the ability is super meh outside limited; in constructed I can remember the card being essentially an attacking wall but even in standard people were just running plumeveil because that card was ridiculous lol flash in this plumeveil and kill your dude and still have this 4/4 flier leftover. What offense do you have no lol.
There was a 5/4 for 2GG. Wild leotau was a house in limited; I thought the card was going to be awful but I ate crow that card was a house in shards limited and if you were playing green you very much wanted wild leotau in your deck generally. But in constructed obviously a 5/4 for 2GG is quite awful when you could be doing much powerful things like casting ajani vengeant or elspeth.
I wish WotC would nerf the game as a whole but sadly that doesn't sell their cardboard crack apparently printing broken planeswalkers' is money in their pocket. I would love for powercreep to be reset to invasion or ravnica or something because both those sets were simply incredibly fun to play with and every time I hear the question "what was the best standard environment" question asked of people they always seem to mention ravnica as being fun and diverse.
Currently Playing:
Retired
I couldn't agree any more. There was an old, old article that talked about not wanting to obsolete cards, but it's inevitable when you set to impress others. i saw Garruk's Companion (which is really good) be toppled by Strangleroot Geist. When maro was asked if undying is just a different aspect of persist, he was like, nope, it's just plain better. That feels like the sentiment with most of these sets.
Anyway, because of my disposition I think a GGG for 5/4 (while acceptable at the current R&D standards) is simply pushing the envelope too far. A 5/5 for a 4cmc is kind of the pinnacle of power, so getting a 5/4 for one mana cheaper seems a tad insane.
Also, they already printed a 5/4 for 3cc in wooly thoctar. Is it that much more broken to print it in an inferior mono color when its in superior zoo colors already?
This. Whatever happened to printing Drawbacks? Seriously. If Prime Time and Co. had something along the lines of Fading or 'whenever this creature attacks or blocks X bad happens' it wouldn't be nearly so bad.
But the sheer awesomeness of certain creatures with absolutely -no- drawbacks is making other cards simply unplayable in any format. Heck, I got ridiculed the other day for running Silvos, Rogue Elemental because it (Guess what!) Dies to dismember.
I'm very ready for things to come back down to a 8-15 turn average competitive game instead of the 4 turn blitzkriegs we have now.
:symb::symr: Malfegor :symb::symr:
:symu::symu: Sakashima the Imposter :symu::symu:
:symw::symw: Darien, King of Kjeldor :symw::symw:
:symr::symr: Ashling the Pilgrim :symr::symr:
:1mana::1mana: (Placeholder) :1mana::1mana:
So GGG is actually a harder manacost than RGW. If they can make a RGW 5/4, they certainly can make a GGG 5/4.
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress