I'm willing to concede the need for a Reserved List. Except for cards that are needed for the viability of an entire format.
There are ways around everything on the Reserved List except for the dual lands. For the most part 99% of the list can stay intact.
They need to take ten cards off of it. That's it. Especially now that they are supporting Legacy as a format. Vintage they don't care about - so you can keep the Power 9 and such on the list. Pretty sure that Leeches, Roc Of Kher Ridges, and Urza's Miter are never going to be necessities.
Than again...I still say that they are well on the way to killing paper Magic off in favor of a full shift over to Online.
They are already making somewhere around 30%-50% of their Magic sales from MODO at this point. That's a huge incentive to shift it over to a medium that costs you nil in overhead compared to what it costs to staff tournaments, rent out convention centers, and such.
In fact...you could just shift Worlds to a Top 16 format for your live efforts and simply privatize the PT venues instead.
If you need more product introduced into the environment you simply run tournaments and give away those packs as prize support. With the release of Mercadian Masques they are completely caught up in regards to having all the cards available online. At some point I expect the Power 9 and the rest of the older cards to show up in a future Master's Edition set online as well.
most of the people that own the duals are magic's most devoted players. the people who work hard, earn money, and spend a good chunk of it on magic cards.
to reprint the duals and have those people's collection value hit the floor, would not be good for the game, or for business. some would probably quit the game. or, if not, at least stop buying magic cards.
think if you spent most of the money you set aside for enjoyment on magic cards. you had 9x of each dual, and had earned them over the course of 3 years. then they reprint the duals, and each one falls to about $12 each. what would you do?
sure, it might be good for business in the sense that now newer players can pick them up more easily. it's tangible that they might even do such a thing.
but i think the system is fine how it stands. not as many people are complaining/going crazy about the prices of duals now as there would be if they got reprinted. sure, i wouldn't mind if underground sea dropped $30 so i could get a set more easily, but i'm not *****ing about the price, and most people i've dealt with aren't either.
legacy already has its pool of people, and it's growing, not shrinking. wizards is making plenty of money. standard players are playing standard. everything is behaving as it should. reprint the duals, chaos breaks loose. i don't think wizards wants that. as a company, i'm pretty sure they would want to play it safe.
unless something strangely dramatic happens in the future, i can't see them reprinting the duals.
I don't think this is entirely true. For example, the comic book industry has been dealing with reprints for decades, and original prints of comics are not devalued because of it.
From a collector standpoint, reprints of cards won't affect value enormously, because regardless of how many copies of a card are reprinted, they can never have the same cachet as an original print.
True, card values of something like the dual lands might see an initial dip, but an original print will always have that added value of being original.
Doubtless the market would correct itself and in fact, wider knowledge of how good those original dual lands are could actually drive value up on the collector market.
Personally, even though I have reprints of lots of comics for the purposes of collecting the entire run, I still look for earlier reprints or first editions because their collector value is still great to me, even though I already have an edition. The same will most likely hold true for a great many of OOP Magic cards.
On top of that, consider that the Duals are the only Legacy staple. You also need Fetches, Force of Will, Brainstorm (admittedly not that bad), Tarmagoyf, Dark Confidant and a host of other cards that are all pretty expensive, and increase barrier of entry money-wise. Reprinting the duals once won't open up the format to a lot of people; they'd need to be reprinted 2 or maybe even 3 times before their cost drops low enough for people to be able to afford them, realistically, and even then, they aren't the only expensive cards in the format, nor are they the only expensive cards on the reserved list. This problem goes well beyond the duals.
This is something that people who don't actively play legacy always overlook. Yes duals are expensive. No you don't need playsets for Legacy. I really think that reprinting the fetches, fow, goyf, bob, V clique, jace, swords... basically all the non-restricted list staples, would do way more for the affordability of legacy than reprinting duals. Everyone is worried about $100 blue duals and $60 green duals but they forget that Goyf is at $100, Jace is at $60, bob is at $40 and fow is at $50...
[QUOTE]
They are already making somewhere around 30%-50% of their Magic sales from MODO at this point. That's a huge incentive to shift it over to a medium that costs you nil in overhead compared to what it costs to staff tournaments, rent out convention centers, and such. [/quote
I think you vastly underestimate the resources it takes to keep a popular online game ticking.
Let's say the Original Duals are all $100 each (they're not; some are more, some less, but just standardise the cost for the sake of this thought process). WotC reprints all 10 duals in a product called, From the Vault: Lands. Now, most places are going to open that product themselves, and sell the Duals, because they're still going to be really expensive. Consider that a lot of Legacy players want Duals, but don't have them. So, the price of the Duals drops to, say, $60 (and that's probably being very generous).
So WotC sees that the price for Duals went down, and is happy, but wants to drop it further, so the next year, they release Allies Vs. Enemies, and they reprint all 10 Dual lands again. This time, they'll maybe fall to $35-$40, which seems more reasonable, but it's taken us 2 years to get there, and is still out of some people's price ranges.
On top of that, consider that the Duals are the only Legacy staple. You also need Fetches, Force of Will, Brainstorm (admittedly not that bad), Tarmagoyf, Dark Confidant and a host of other cards that are all pretty expensive, and increase barrier of entry money-wise. Reprinting the duals once won't open up the format to a lot of people; they'd need to be reprinted 2 or maybe even 3 times before their cost drops low enough for people to be able to afford them, realistically, and even then, they aren't the only expensive cards in the format, nor are they the only expensive cards on the reserved list. This problem goes well beyond the duals.
I think your logic is flawed. First of all, no matter how many copies of a card are reprinted, they can never take away the value associated with being from Alpha, Beta or Unlimited. Period. As I mentioned in a post above, comic books have been dealing with this issue for years. Do you think if DC reprinted (and they probably actually have) Action Comics #1 or Detective Comics #27 that the original prints of those issues would fall in value? No way.
The only thing the RL serves is people who've invested in those cards for financial reasons. Pure collectors won't be affected or put off by reprints because their originals will still retain value simply for being original.
I don't deny that initially the prices of the original cards may dip, but as more people are introduced to dual lands (there has got to be legions of younger fans who don't look at old card sets or spend a lot of time on sites like MTGS who've never even heard of the dual lands) the value of those original cards will rebound as their very rareness and aura of unavailability grows. Reprints are second class citizens when compared to first editions. Reprints will be used for play, originals will remain collector's items.
I don't deny that initially the prices of the original cards may dip, but as more people are introduced to dual lands (there has got to be legions of younger fans who don't look at old card sets or spend a lot of time on sites like MTGS who've never even heard of the dual lands) the value of those original cards will rebound as their very rareness and aura of unavailability grows. Reprints are second class citizens when compared to first editions. Reprints will be used for play, originals will remain collector's items.
I am of the same opinion. Additionally you have the fact that as it is now there is a relatively small amount of players who are trying to break in to legacy. This is undoubtedly lergely due to expense. If more of the dual lands are printed, in a way that is easy enough for people to get, then it will bring down the aparent raity of the reprints initially as people see an opportunity to break in. Then, as more people are trying to make competitive legacy decks the price of the old duals will rise significantly, and likely the reprints will drift up as well. This influx of interested players will also sharply increase the price of other legacy staples.
Collectors have nothing to fear, except the bubble bursting. Someone mentioned the market correcting, and I think that is an important idea to keep in mind. As it stands now the prices of legacy staples are an inflated bubble, as tends to happen with non-commodity luxury goods. Eventually that bubble will burst for one reason or another, possibly due to the collapse of Legacy, because markets over time tend to self correct. The wise approach to minimizing the effects of this would be to do some kind of controlled deflation of the bubble. Reprinting, slowly and easily accessible, Legacy staples would be a good way to do some controlled deflation.
I agree with much of what has been said so far in this thread. I believe that the reserve list is a dumb idea, mainly due to the reasons posted just above - it's the fact that your Duals / Moxes / etc are ORIGINAL that makes them valuable. A reprint would be nice and would drop prices a bit, but if someone is truly a collector then they'd probably have no desire for a reprinted version. Because of this, values on original cards would likely stay somewhere near current levels, while letting other people have access to cards they otherwise wouldn't.
Also, I think it's silly that people are so worked up about cards "losing their value". People will say things like "I'd be really pissed off if I just invested $100's or $1000's in cards and then they suddenly take a nosedive in price." If that's your concern, then why did you buy Magic cards? If you were investing, why didn't you set up an IRA or a 401k, or buy a property that you could rent out?
Inherently, investments carry RISK. If they didn't, then they wouldn't be investements. People don't expect to buy stocks to see them only go up. Why would you expect Magic to be different? If you're buying cards with the misguided thought that they will gain value forever and that you'll be able to sell them in the future for a pretty penny, you're doing it wrong.
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Evolution gave us a clock that's always winding down - Dillinger Escape Plan
If you're into metal music of any variety: The PRP / MetalSucks / Heavy Blog is Heavy
A few decks I've been kicking around: Modern: WUBRGHumans / GUInfect Legacy: LED Dredge / UW Stoneblade
Legacy players just need to come out and stop trying to hide behind these "Oh, but the collectors, they will revolt!" or "All LGS will lose hundreds from price drops!" arguements because they're not true. Collectors don't care about reprints, because their mentality is always going to be "older is better". And retailers would love reprints, because rather than sitting on expensive duals that barely anyone will come in and buy, they suddenly have a mass of new product that they'd probably sell more of than duals they even carry in their store.
Admit the truth, you invested money in cardboard and you don't want to have a bad investment. If you truly cared about the reserved list, then you'd protest every single card that is a functional or better print than something on the list. But last I checked, the only cards that you care about them reprinting are your tournament staples that you invested your money in.
And before people start running in with "you're probably a standard player!", I am a Legacy player myself and I could care less if they reprint cards because it means I'd have a chance to replace some of the more battered up staples I own with nice fresh new ones for a fraction of the price.
Completely eliminating paper Magic would be a grave mistake on wizards' part and I don't think they're stupid enough to believe that having magic be solely online/have everything on there can do good for them. Also I heard from a member of R&D a few years ago that every pack/card that is introduced into a players account remains there forevermore/takes up storage space on a server.
Not to mention lots of people would quit playing the game if there were no more paper cards being printed. For many the social aspect of Magic is also attractive and you lose that aspect when you're just playing in front of a computer screen.
The reserved list is stupid and everyone should know it. The white bordered revised and unlimited copies of duals might drop a little bit but beta and alpha duals wouldn't go down a centime. Why? Because they're still ridiculously hard to find and have a certain prestige to them. Whenever my opponent lays down a beta/alpha dual land I'm always impressed because they are very scarce. If anything, beta and alpha dual lands would go UP in price because people have always wanted the original copy of a card and as I have stated a great many times beta and alpha dual lands are extremely scarce. The only print run that is lower is the summer magic print run, which is estimated to be around 40 BOXES total.
I'd love for the list to be abolished but no hope seems to be in sight at least until modern sputters and dies then we might have a shot at it again but we might not.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
There are ways around everything on the Reserved List except for the dual lands. For the most part 99% of the list can stay intact.
They need to take ten cards off of it. That's it. Especially now that they are supporting Legacy as a format. Vintage they don't care about - so you can keep the Power 9 and such on the list. Pretty sure that Leeches, Roc Of Kher Ridges, and Urza's Miter are never going to be necessities.
Than again...I still say that they are well on the way to killing paper Magic off in favor of a full shift over to Online.
They are already making somewhere around 30%-50% of their Magic sales from MODO at this point. That's a huge incentive to shift it over to a medium that costs you nil in overhead compared to what it costs to staff tournaments, rent out convention centers, and such.
In fact...you could just shift Worlds to a Top 16 format for your live efforts and simply privatize the PT venues instead.
If you need more product introduced into the environment you simply run tournaments and give away those packs as prize support. With the release of Mercadian Masques they are completely caught up in regards to having all the cards available online. At some point I expect the Power 9 and the rest of the older cards to show up in a future Master's Edition set online as well.
I don't think this is entirely true. For example, the comic book industry has been dealing with reprints for decades, and original prints of comics are not devalued because of it.
From a collector standpoint, reprints of cards won't affect value enormously, because regardless of how many copies of a card are reprinted, they can never have the same cachet as an original print.
True, card values of something like the dual lands might see an initial dip, but an original print will always have that added value of being original.
Doubtless the market would correct itself and in fact, wider knowledge of how good those original dual lands are could actually drive value up on the collector market.
Personally, even though I have reprints of lots of comics for the purposes of collecting the entire run, I still look for earlier reprints or first editions because their collector value is still great to me, even though I already have an edition. The same will most likely hold true for a great many of OOP Magic cards.
This is something that people who don't actively play legacy always overlook. Yes duals are expensive. No you don't need playsets for Legacy. I really think that reprinting the fetches, fow, goyf, bob, V clique, jace, swords... basically all the non-restricted list staples, would do way more for the affordability of legacy than reprinting duals. Everyone is worried about $100 blue duals and $60 green duals but they forget that Goyf is at $100, Jace is at $60, bob is at $40 and fow is at $50...
[QUOTE]
They are already making somewhere around 30%-50% of their Magic sales from MODO at this point. That's a huge incentive to shift it over to a medium that costs you nil in overhead compared to what it costs to staff tournaments, rent out convention centers, and such. [/quote
I think you vastly underestimate the resources it takes to keep a popular online game ticking.
I think your logic is flawed. First of all, no matter how many copies of a card are reprinted, they can never take away the value associated with being from Alpha, Beta or Unlimited. Period. As I mentioned in a post above, comic books have been dealing with this issue for years. Do you think if DC reprinted (and they probably actually have) Action Comics #1 or Detective Comics #27 that the original prints of those issues would fall in value? No way.
The only thing the RL serves is people who've invested in those cards for financial reasons. Pure collectors won't be affected or put off by reprints because their originals will still retain value simply for being original.
I don't deny that initially the prices of the original cards may dip, but as more people are introduced to dual lands (there has got to be legions of younger fans who don't look at old card sets or spend a lot of time on sites like MTGS who've never even heard of the dual lands) the value of those original cards will rebound as their very rareness and aura of unavailability grows. Reprints are second class citizens when compared to first editions. Reprints will be used for play, originals will remain collector's items.
Collectors have nothing to fear, except the bubble bursting. Someone mentioned the market correcting, and I think that is an important idea to keep in mind. As it stands now the prices of legacy staples are an inflated bubble, as tends to happen with non-commodity luxury goods. Eventually that bubble will burst for one reason or another, possibly due to the collapse of Legacy, because markets over time tend to self correct. The wise approach to minimizing the effects of this would be to do some kind of controlled deflation of the bubble. Reprinting, slowly and easily accessible, Legacy staples would be a good way to do some controlled deflation.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Also, I think it's silly that people are so worked up about cards "losing their value". People will say things like "I'd be really pissed off if I just invested $100's or $1000's in cards and then they suddenly take a nosedive in price." If that's your concern, then why did you buy Magic cards? If you were investing, why didn't you set up an IRA or a 401k, or buy a property that you could rent out?
Inherently, investments carry RISK. If they didn't, then they wouldn't be investements. People don't expect to buy stocks to see them only go up. Why would you expect Magic to be different? If you're buying cards with the misguided thought that they will gain value forever and that you'll be able to sell them in the future for a pretty penny, you're doing it wrong.
If you're into metal music of any variety: The PRP / MetalSucks / Heavy Blog is Heavy
A few decks I've been kicking around:
Modern:
WUBRGHumans / GUInfect
Legacy:
LED Dredge / UW Stoneblade
Legacy players just need to come out and stop trying to hide behind these "Oh, but the collectors, they will revolt!" or "All LGS will lose hundreds from price drops!" arguements because they're not true. Collectors don't care about reprints, because their mentality is always going to be "older is better". And retailers would love reprints, because rather than sitting on expensive duals that barely anyone will come in and buy, they suddenly have a mass of new product that they'd probably sell more of than duals they even carry in their store.
Admit the truth, you invested money in cardboard and you don't want to have a bad investment. If you truly cared about the reserved list, then you'd protest every single card that is a functional or better print than something on the list. But last I checked, the only cards that you care about them reprinting are your tournament staples that you invested your money in.
And before people start running in with "you're probably a standard player!", I am a Legacy player myself and I could care less if they reprint cards because it means I'd have a chance to replace some of the more battered up staples I own with nice fresh new ones for a fraction of the price.
Not to mention lots of people would quit playing the game if there were no more paper cards being printed. For many the social aspect of Magic is also attractive and you lose that aspect when you're just playing in front of a computer screen.
The reserved list is stupid and everyone should know it. The white bordered revised and unlimited copies of duals might drop a little bit but beta and alpha duals wouldn't go down a centime. Why? Because they're still ridiculously hard to find and have a certain prestige to them. Whenever my opponent lays down a beta/alpha dual land I'm always impressed because they are very scarce. If anything, beta and alpha dual lands would go UP in price because people have always wanted the original copy of a card and as I have stated a great many times beta and alpha dual lands are extremely scarce. The only print run that is lower is the summer magic print run, which is estimated to be around 40 BOXES total.
I'd love for the list to be abolished but no hope seems to be in sight at least until modern sputters and dies then we might have a shot at it again but we might not.
Currently Playing:
Retired