I will say I agree to an extent that the earlier blocks were more fun simply for one aspect... the internet wasn't as widespread. Magic was much more rooted in casual play groups and a limited cardpool that included what you opened in packs mostly. Larger cities had an established meta, but in smaller towns we didn't have shops that ran events (or at least didn't know about them). That and you never knew what kind of decks you were going to run into because "netdecking" was reduced to waiting till Scrye came out to read tournament results.
While I certainly love the way MTG is now, there was something to be said for the unexpected excitement that we had back around REV-ICE...
Otherwise, from a game design standpoint... I'd agree with the idea that MaRo helped build this game to what it is today. Through good and bad, Magic is a fantastic game now.
Magic has always been awesome, but the Golden Age of the game would be Mirage. That's when they spent more on getting better art (including better design and print process of the card itself), designed sets and block in a coherent manner and still preserved the classic feeling of the game while adding a new level of flavor.
Good going WOTC. A little quality control would have been nice.
Honsetly Urza's block was without a doubt my favorite, and the first time I took a break from buying magic was when it rotated.
Urza's block had it all. Combo, Control, Aggro, and cards powerful enough to affect "eternal" formats. With a little tweaking every set should be more like Urza's block was.
Urza Block was awesome, but far too broken. Starting with Invasion, Magic began to even out, with far less broken stuff (Alpha, Urza's), and less chaff (Alpha, Masques).
Yeah, it had ups and downs (Ravnica the pinnacle, Kawigawa... yeah...) but Magic has been on a tear since Invasion.
Sure, Mirage through Exodus was great, but Magic only really matured at Invasion.
Honsetly Urza's block was without a doubt my favorite, and the first time I took a break from buying magic was when it rotated.
Urza's block had it all. Combo, Control, Aggro, and cards powerful enough to affect "eternal" formats. With a little tweaking every set should be more like Urza's block was.
Don't get me wrong, I loved Urza's. It may have been one of my favorite blocks ever. But good grief, some of those cards were just busted as all hell. It was like they tossed darts and wherever they hit, that was the mana cost.
I could just imagine some of the conversations at R&D during this time.
Randy: I got an idea for a card
Mike: Yeah, what?
Randy: It's a land.
Mike: Oh good, like we don't have enough lands already. So what does it do.
Randy: You tap it for blue and get one blue mana for every artifact you have.
Mike: Isn't blue broken to hell enough already? I mean aren't we trying to nerf blue?
Randy: Doesn't sound too bad. I mean how many artifacts can someone get out in a few turns? I like it. What do we call it?
Mike: How about "Broken-To-Hell Academy?"
Randy: Hey, Academy...I like that sound. How about Tolarian Academy?
Mike: Sure...and we can take bets on how long until it's banned.
(Later that season)
Bill: Randy, Mike...GET THE HELL IN HERE!
Yeah, the inmates were really running the asylum back then.
Maybe that's what they should have called it...Tolarian Asylum.
Don't get me wrong, I loved Urza's. It may have been one of my favorite blocks ever. But good grief, some of those cards were just busted as all hell. It was like they tossed darts and wherever they hit, that was the mana cost.
That's the thing though. Busted magic was fun magic. Turning dudes sideways and winning because your guys are better is boring. Aggro always had a place, but it's way to dominate in design space now.
lot's of powerful cards meant lots of powerful deck choices.
For every Toalrian academy there was a Gaea's cradle.
MaRo's article on the history of how magic sets was designed might be helpful.
"Modern" magic principles were probably laid down around Invasion.
Indeed. Looking objectively at the blocks through the game's history, we first start seeing the roots of modern design in Invasion. But I don't believe that process was refined until Ravnica. Blocks from Ravnica to now have a very clearly visible design strategy (Ravnica's guilds, Time Spiral's division of 'time' themes, Lorwyn's races then classes, Shadowmoor's ally hybrid then enemy hybrid, etc), interblock synergy, etc. And despite a few aberrations here and there, card design itself has been more or less balanced.
For my money, I think there are distinct eras of design principles.
Alpha - Homelands : No blocks, each set was essentially just a collection of cards with no clear design strategy at all. Power levels were all over the place and it was clear the designers weren't sure how to balance, nor was there much thought put into giving each set its own identity.
Ice Age - Weatherlight : First instances of blocks, though not nearly as evolved and clean as today. Power levels are still a bit skewed, but are slowly evening out. Each set has hints of themes, but not quite with as much planning or thought as now.
Tempest - Prophecy : Blocks are starting to develop themes, or at least design is starting to consider each block as a way to explore themes rather than just be collections of barely-related cards. Flavor is now a large part of the game, with settings and characters becoming notable parts of the sets.
Invasion - Saviors of Kamigawa : Block themes now fully in use. Elegant distribution of the themes over the three sets still hit or miss (Invasion Block's ally duo-ally arc-enemy duo progression is logical and elegant, but the other blocks in this group don't have any sort of progression to speak of, the themes don't evolve over the block). Power levels now more or less balanced (design's underestimation of artifacts seems to be the only really huge problem, though some other individual problem cards exist). Blocks and sets starting to have very distinct identities.
Ravnica - now : Very clear block themes, and intricately-planned progression of those themes across the block. Power levels are now rather balanced, though the odd exception still slips through. Flavor and mechanics now coordinated and compliment one another more often than not. Each block has a goal and each set in that block has a distinct identity within that. Each block no longer just exists on its own, interblock synergy now links each block with the ones before and after it (something started as far back as the Mirrodin block, but fully integrated and planned by Ravnica).
I mean, we can argue about when the game itself got good, but I think we can clearly see Design getting good at its job over time.
That's the thing though. Busted magic was fun magic. Turning dudes sideways and winning because your guys are better is boring. Aggro always had a place, but it's way to dominate in design space now.
lot's of powerful cards meant lots of powerful deck choices.
For every Toalrian academy there was a Gaea's cradle.
Oh, and like THAT wasn't broken to hell.
Randy: Hey Mike, I got another one!
Mike: (Facepalm) God, what is it now?
Randy: Another land. You get one green mana for each creature you control.
Mike: Doesn't green have enough ramp already and don't they churn out creatures like bunny rabbits?
Randy: We'll make it Legendary. That'll balance it out.
(Later that season)
Bill: Randy, Mike...GET THE HELL IN HERE!
Urza's is one of the main reasons I still prefer Vintage over Standard, if I could only get somebody to play with.
Magic has always been awesome, but the Golden Age of the game would be Mirage. That's when they spent more on getting better art (including better design and print process of the card itself), designed sets and block in a coherent manner and still preserved the classic feeling of the game while adding a new level of flavor.
MTG, sadly, has been going downhill ever since.
To each their own, but I honestly think we're in a very high point over the last few years. Incredible art and design has really complimented theme well IMO. Early sets just kind of had a mechanic slapped onto some samey looking generic fantasy world. But that's my opinion.
Answer: Not so much the larger card pool, but the fact cards you buy you can't keep playing with unless you start playing Modern/Legacy/Vintage, which is a different kind of game, one all about exploits and broken mechanics..
I'm not saying that the game sucks now or anything. Far from it, and I love it. But it drives me crazy that we have to keep updating our cards in order to play this game. It gives me a feeling of impermanence, that what you buy from Wizards has an expiration date on it.
I wish they'd develop a format that let you play cards from any set (or, at least any set within the last eleven years or so) but that you had to keep them within their appropriate block. Then I could at least know that my Illusions deck or my Infect deck would always be able to be played. I can't take an out of date standard deck and just play Modern with it; I'd get murdered. But I bet these decks would work fine against each other. Just a personal theory is all.
I also wish they wouldn't update the core set every year. I'm really worried/frustrated with the overprinting. It could end up caving in on itself if they aren't more careful.
In the old days, I knew what cards there were. Now, I can barely keep track. They are constantly, constantly coming out and constantly, constantly expiring.
Have you heard of the format "Choose Your Own Standard"? It does basically what you want.
Have you heard of the format "Choose Your Own Standard"? It does basically what you want.
No, I have not heard of that format. Casual, I assume.
Do you mean that players choose a standard for everyone at the table to play from? In other words, "Tonight, we'll be doing Kamigawa Standard" which means everyone at the table is working from Kamigawa standard?
Or is it (I hope) where you can play with any deck you want, so long as it at one point was standard legal? In other words, I can play with a Kamigawa Standard Legal deck, and someone else is doing Worldwake Standard, and someone else is doing Innistrad Standrad, etc.
I would have to agree with most people and say Ravnica. That's when blocks were designed with all three sets in mind, and an attempt to make each one mean something other than 'moar cardz'. The cardframe templating also became a bit better, with the dual color cards and hybrid.
Frankly, the oracle text changes over the last few years have been kinda annoying. Its almost as if each year they change how something is written on the cards. Dies, exile, battlefield, etc, are all justified. I just wish it had all been implemented at the same time, during the 8ED frame change. I say this because I wish my cards said what they 'say', looking at old wording is kinda irksome. I understand that too many changes at once would have caused a mass exodus, and that they hadn't thought of the benefits yet, but for continuity, it would have been nice.
No, I have not heard of that format. Casual, I assume.
Do you mean that players choose a standard for everyone at the table to play from? In other words, "Tonight, we'll be doing Kamigawa Standard" which means everyone at the table is working from Kamigawa standard?
Or is it (I hope) where you can play with any deck you want, so long as it at one point was standard legal? In other words, I can play with a Kamigawa Standard Legal deck, and someone else is doing Worldwake Standard, and someone else is doing Innistrad Standrad, etc.
From what I have been involved in, build your own standard allows you to put together two blocks and a core set (excluding Alpha through Unlimited). For instance, I could play Kamigawa block, Zendikar block, and 7th Edition.
I agree with Bacl. Ice Age block and Mirage block are awesome.
Necropotence is actually pretty well in-check without Hymn to Tourach and a bunch of other stuff in the environment it grew up in.
Not being able to play a 6/6 on turn four EVERY game (which as a bonus gets me two lands of ANY kind and/or Incinerates for free as needed) is awesome for actual game play.
It's Balduvian Horde with random discard. Oh crap. I needed that card. A 5/5 with a good drawback is much better than the Titans which cost two more, are bigger, and have NO drawbacks. I was going to say they cost the same...but that's only because I drop them turn four every game...so they might as well be a four drop.
I have a set of four or five fully decked out Ice Age block decks now (with Coldsnap coolness...since Homelands is...uhm...not good?). I think most of them cost me less than $25 bucks to fill out with full sets of rares and everything. That's kind of sexy. I play them a ton because the games last awhile and are actually not auto-pilot every time. Did I mention it's fun when they only cost $20 bucks?
Same with Mirage. Other than LED, Dreadnought, and the tutors that block is cheaper than dirt also. I've switched over to a lot of old school early block play. Okay. Saga is on a crazy little island all by itself. Ice Age-Mirage-Tempest-Mercadian Masques (sans Rebels) and Invasion? Not bad.
I remember when Balduvian horde was a chase rare. I was cracking packs at Christmas and pulled one, was in Hog heaven. I got out of Magic for a good amount of years after torment and was brought back in my M10. I think this is what made it "mainstream"
From what I have been involved in, build your own standard allows you to put together two blocks and a core set (excluding Alpha through Unlimited). For instance, I could play Kamigawa block, Zendikar block, and 7th Edition.
Not to get off topic, but does this format have a more 'standard' (i.e. normal) feel to its play, or is it more like Modern where decks rely on finding broken cards and combos to exploit?
the sloppiness was good. The game was interesting and FUN.
when they decided to ditch fun for mechanical consitency, the game changed, IMHO into a completely different game, and while that mechanical consistency did help a lot of things, to me, it practically killed the fun factor of the game.
the sloppiness was good. The game was interesting and FUN.
when they decided to ditch fun for mechanical consitency, the game changed, IMHO into a completely different game, and while that mechanical consistency did help a lot of things, to me, it practically killed the fun factor of the game.
Brace yourself! I agree with you Valarin!
Magic was more fun when it wasn't so "balanced." The same problems still exist as before, they just look different now. Turn 4 Primeval titan is this standards Tolarian Academy. In the past though there were other "broken" options. Today if you want to rival that you need to also play Primeval titan.
Today I often feel that I'm forced to take a Knife to a gun fight. In the old days they would have had a machine gun, today they only have a pistol. In the old days we could all bring machine guns.
We used to do crazy powerful things every turn with a wide variety of different decks.
Ah...somebody has announced exactly what I've been saying for awhile now about recent Magic. The word mechanical is perfect to describe the way the game plays these days. Play is completely scripted. There isn't a lot of the wonder that existed when the sets were designed on a card-by-card basis and there wasn't always a lot of cohesion. Messy and sometimes unbalanced was fun.
Urza's Saga was awesome. When everything is broken, nothing is broken!
There were ten different ways to do turn two and three kills. That's variety. Stupid broken, but you lost every game in some new and completely different way.
Dark Ritual is a fun card. No good can come from that being played is your first response to it EVERY single time it gets put on the stack. Stuff is happening. It's going to be bad, really bad. Awesome.
Not to get off topic, but does this format have a more 'standard' (i.e. normal) feel to its play, or is it more like Modern where decks rely on finding broken cards and combos to exploit?
It's relatively unexplored, so I have no clue lol.
The banned list consists of everything banned in Block, though, so there shouldn't be anything too terrible.
I would link you to a forum about it, but The Source took theirs down when they added a Modern forum.
Kamigawa block, i had most fun kamigawa block! and onslaught block comes after.
Magic isnt funny novadays. Too many broken cards and planeswalkers killed the fun
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standart :
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Five Color Control :symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:
:symu::symb: Shadowmage Prowler :symu::symb:
:symg::symb: Elves :symg::symb:
Extended :
:symw::symu:Control Freak:symw::symu:
:symu::symg:Isao's Cloak:symu::symg:
Kamigawa block, i had most fun kamigawa block! and onslaught block comes after.
Magic isnt funny novadays. Too many broken cards and planeswalkers killed the fun
I take from your comments that you don't play anymore then? Is this correct? If not, then I have to ask...why DO you still play if all the fun is gone?
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm picking on you or your opinion but I hear a lot of people say "magic isn't fun anymore" and yet they still buy tons of boosters, tons of singles and still come out to every FNM.
I have to ask...why?
Are they that addicted that even though they dislike the game because of whatever changes, they can't stop playing?
If the day ever comes that I stop liking Magic The Gathering, I will stop playing because life is too short to waste on things that I don't enjoy.
That is why I assume by your comments that you no longer play Magic.
And if that's so, why are you even still here?
Sorry, the whole "I hate magic" but still play it boggles the heck out of my mind.
So please enlighten me. Why DO you still play if indeed you do still play?
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FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
While I certainly love the way MTG is now, there was something to be said for the unexpected excitement that we had back around REV-ICE...
Otherwise, from a game design standpoint... I'd agree with the idea that MaRo helped build this game to what it is today. Through good and bad, Magic is a fantastic game now.
MTG, sadly, has been going downhill ever since.
The art improved gradually over time. I'm not a big fan of the Alpha art, but by the time of The Dark I think it was good.
When 6th Edition was released, the rules became good.
Starting with Invasion block, Limited became good.
Honsetly Urza's block was without a doubt my favorite, and the first time I took a break from buying magic was when it rotated.
Urza's block had it all. Combo, Control, Aggro, and cards powerful enough to affect "eternal" formats. With a little tweaking every set should be more like Urza's block was.
Urza Block was awesome, but far too broken. Starting with Invasion, Magic began to even out, with far less broken stuff (Alpha, Urza's), and less chaff (Alpha, Masques).
Yeah, it had ups and downs (Ravnica the pinnacle, Kawigawa... yeah...) but Magic has been on a tear since Invasion.
Sure, Mirage through Exodus was great, but Magic only really matured at Invasion.
Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
Don't get me wrong, I loved Urza's. It may have been one of my favorite blocks ever. But good grief, some of those cards were just busted as all hell. It was like they tossed darts and wherever they hit, that was the mana cost.
I could just imagine some of the conversations at R&D during this time.
Randy: I got an idea for a card
Mike: Yeah, what?
Randy: It's a land.
Mike: Oh good, like we don't have enough lands already. So what does it do.
Randy: You tap it for blue and get one blue mana for every artifact you have.
Mike: Isn't blue broken to hell enough already? I mean aren't we trying to nerf blue?
Randy: Doesn't sound too bad. I mean how many artifacts can someone get out in a few turns? I like it. What do we call it?
Mike: How about "Broken-To-Hell Academy?"
Randy: Hey, Academy...I like that sound. How about Tolarian Academy?
Mike: Sure...and we can take bets on how long until it's banned.
(Later that season)
Bill: Randy, Mike...GET THE HELL IN HERE!
Yeah, the inmates were really running the asylum back then.
Maybe that's what they should have called it...Tolarian Asylum.
That's the thing though. Busted magic was fun magic. Turning dudes sideways and winning because your guys are better is boring. Aggro always had a place, but it's way to dominate in design space now.
lot's of powerful cards meant lots of powerful deck choices.
For every Toalrian academy there was a Gaea's cradle.
Indeed. Looking objectively at the blocks through the game's history, we first start seeing the roots of modern design in Invasion. But I don't believe that process was refined until Ravnica. Blocks from Ravnica to now have a very clearly visible design strategy (Ravnica's guilds, Time Spiral's division of 'time' themes, Lorwyn's races then classes, Shadowmoor's ally hybrid then enemy hybrid, etc), interblock synergy, etc. And despite a few aberrations here and there, card design itself has been more or less balanced.
For my money, I think there are distinct eras of design principles.
Alpha - Homelands : No blocks, each set was essentially just a collection of cards with no clear design strategy at all. Power levels were all over the place and it was clear the designers weren't sure how to balance, nor was there much thought put into giving each set its own identity.
Ice Age - Weatherlight : First instances of blocks, though not nearly as evolved and clean as today. Power levels are still a bit skewed, but are slowly evening out. Each set has hints of themes, but not quite with as much planning or thought as now.
Tempest - Prophecy : Blocks are starting to develop themes, or at least design is starting to consider each block as a way to explore themes rather than just be collections of barely-related cards. Flavor is now a large part of the game, with settings and characters becoming notable parts of the sets.
Invasion - Saviors of Kamigawa : Block themes now fully in use. Elegant distribution of the themes over the three sets still hit or miss (Invasion Block's ally duo-ally arc-enemy duo progression is logical and elegant, but the other blocks in this group don't have any sort of progression to speak of, the themes don't evolve over the block). Power levels now more or less balanced (design's underestimation of artifacts seems to be the only really huge problem, though some other individual problem cards exist). Blocks and sets starting to have very distinct identities.
Ravnica - now : Very clear block themes, and intricately-planned progression of those themes across the block. Power levels are now rather balanced, though the odd exception still slips through. Flavor and mechanics now coordinated and compliment one another more often than not. Each block has a goal and each set in that block has a distinct identity within that. Each block no longer just exists on its own, interblock synergy now links each block with the ones before and after it (something started as far back as the Mirrodin block, but fully integrated and planned by Ravnica).
I mean, we can argue about when the game itself got good, but I think we can clearly see Design getting good at its job over time.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Oh, and like THAT wasn't broken to hell.
Randy: Hey Mike, I got another one!
Mike: (Facepalm) God, what is it now?
Randy: Another land. You get one green mana for each creature you control.
Mike: Doesn't green have enough ramp already and don't they churn out creatures like bunny rabbits?
Randy: We'll make it Legendary. That'll balance it out.
(Later that season)
Bill: Randy, Mike...GET THE HELL IN HERE!
Urza's is one of the main reasons I still prefer Vintage over Standard, if I could only get somebody to play with.
To each their own, but I honestly think we're in a very high point over the last few years. Incredible art and design has really complimented theme well IMO. Early sets just kind of had a mechanic slapped onto some samey looking generic fantasy world. But that's my opinion.
Have you heard of the format "Choose Your Own Standard"? It does basically what you want.
No, I have not heard of that format. Casual, I assume.
Do you mean that players choose a standard for everyone at the table to play from? In other words, "Tonight, we'll be doing Kamigawa Standard" which means everyone at the table is working from Kamigawa standard?
Or is it (I hope) where you can play with any deck you want, so long as it at one point was standard legal? In other words, I can play with a Kamigawa Standard Legal deck, and someone else is doing Worldwake Standard, and someone else is doing Innistrad Standrad, etc.
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
Frankly, the oracle text changes over the last few years have been kinda annoying. Its almost as if each year they change how something is written on the cards. Dies, exile, battlefield, etc, are all justified. I just wish it had all been implemented at the same time, during the 8ED frame change. I say this because I wish my cards said what they 'say', looking at old wording is kinda irksome. I understand that too many changes at once would have caused a mass exodus, and that they hadn't thought of the benefits yet, but for continuity, it would have been nice.
From what I have been involved in, build your own standard allows you to put together two blocks and a core set (excluding Alpha through Unlimited). For instance, I could play Kamigawa block, Zendikar block, and 7th Edition.
I remember when Balduvian horde was a chase rare. I was cracking packs at Christmas and pulled one, was in Hog heaven. I got out of Magic for a good amount of years after torment and was brought back in my M10. I think this is what made it "mainstream"
Not to get off topic, but does this format have a more 'standard' (i.e. normal) feel to its play, or is it more like Modern where decks rely on finding broken cards and combos to exploit?
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
the sloppiness was good. The game was interesting and FUN.
when they decided to ditch fun for mechanical consitency, the game changed, IMHO into a completely different game, and while that mechanical consistency did help a lot of things, to me, it practically killed the fun factor of the game.
Brace yourself! I agree with you Valarin!
Magic was more fun when it wasn't so "balanced." The same problems still exist as before, they just look different now. Turn 4 Primeval titan is this standards Tolarian Academy. In the past though there were other "broken" options. Today if you want to rival that you need to also play Primeval titan.
Today I often feel that I'm forced to take a Knife to a gun fight. In the old days they would have had a machine gun, today they only have a pistol. In the old days we could all bring machine guns.
We used to do crazy powerful things every turn with a wide variety of different decks.
I'll never be convinced that Playing a titan and winning the game is more fun than dark ritualing into Yawgmoth's bargain and then digging to find your cards, ditching extra cards to skirge familiar to power a drain life
Urza's Saga was awesome. When everything is broken, nothing is broken!
There were ten different ways to do turn two and three kills. That's variety. Stupid broken, but you lost every game in some new and completely different way.
Dark Ritual is a fun card. No good can come from that being played is your first response to it EVERY single time it gets put on the stack. Stuff is happening. It's going to be bad, really bad. Awesome.
It's relatively unexplored, so I have no clue lol.
The banned list consists of everything banned in Block, though, so there shouldn't be anything too terrible.
I would link you to a forum about it, but The Source took theirs down when they added a Modern forum.
It's actually quite relevant.
Very interesting article and I think they've done a very good job in doing what they set out to do.
Magic isnt funny novadays. Too many broken cards and planeswalkers killed the fun
Standart :
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Five Color Control :symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:
:symu::symb: Shadowmage Prowler :symu::symb:
:symg::symb: Elves :symg::symb:
Extended :
:symw::symu:Control Freak:symw::symu:
:symu::symg:Isao's Cloak:symu::symg:
I take from your comments that you don't play anymore then? Is this correct? If not, then I have to ask...why DO you still play if all the fun is gone?
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm picking on you or your opinion but I hear a lot of people say "magic isn't fun anymore" and yet they still buy tons of boosters, tons of singles and still come out to every FNM.
I have to ask...why?
Are they that addicted that even though they dislike the game because of whatever changes, they can't stop playing?
If the day ever comes that I stop liking Magic The Gathering, I will stop playing because life is too short to waste on things that I don't enjoy.
That is why I assume by your comments that you no longer play Magic.
And if that's so, why are you even still here?
Sorry, the whole "I hate magic" but still play it boggles the heck out of my mind.
So please enlighten me. Why DO you still play if indeed you do still play?