Caw-Blade was a very special case, that has been handled with the ban hammer, which tells well enough about how much a problem it was. WRR decks on the other hand have nothing to do with Caw-Blade and there are a lot of metagame solutions.
1) On "netdecking is killing the game".
You are "guy claiming something will kill the game" n°8984754. The fact is the game has never be going so well. Except for the Caw-Blade episode, non-professional tournament play is thriving.
Netdecking has been around for years and years. Successful tournament lists have been available on the Internet prior 2002 and have been spreading with the increase Internet access across the world. If netdecking was killing the game, it would have done so a long time ago.
There's no reason to believe this is going to happen now or in a near future when it has not happened during the last 10 years.
I suspect the Caw-Blade episode is why you are believing this, but evidence doesn't go your way.
2) Misconception about deckbuilding and netdecking
Like I said before, FNM are meant to be friendly competitve tournaments. The friendly atmosphere comes with the Regular REL and a prize structure that's nice with less good players.
But it's still a tournament where people are playing to win. You can't expect from people that they don't try their best to win the tournament. The level of effort put into that goal is up to each player : some are practicing, others are asking for help with their deck lists... and some people netdeck.
Deckbuilding is hard
The basic misconception here is to believe you have to be good at deckbuilding to play this game. While deckbuilding is a whole part of Magic the Gathering and is indeed a very funny activity, not everyone is good at it.
In fact, most players are very bad at deckbuilding. There are only a handful of players in the world that are truly able to engineer good decks out of the blue : they are the ones writing articles and the ones behind most successes in major tournaments, especially Pro Tours where the format is usually fresh.
But we're not on the Pro Tour here, so back to the FNM. The fact is most people can't build a tier 1 or a tier 2 deck. So if you are not able to come up with a competitive deck, what do you do ? You do what most people looking for advice do in the 21st century, you summon the Great Internets and you search for a successful deck.
Finding a deck on the Internet is easy but...
However, finding the deck and the list is only the beginning of it. It takes time to learn how to properly play a deck, how to make correct mulligans, how to sideboard, how to play against the field. Copy-pasting a list doesn't tell you anything about the philosophy of a deck and the purpose of each card.
When you build your own deck, those things are pretty obvious but as soon as you are using an unknown deck they are not.
Besides, it's very difficult to adapt or tweak a deck properly without knowing it first. If you have no experience with a deck you can't make good choices about card options. The only thing you are going to do by changing cards in such circumstances is to make the deck worse.
3) Bad ethics ?
People netdeck because they want to play a powerful deck. Is it bad ethics to play a powerful deck in a sanctionned tournament ? No. This is competitive play (even if FNM is soft competitive play) and this is fully expected.
People netdeck because they are not good at building. Should people not good at building be penalized in constructed play ? No. This is the very nature of constructed play to make a clear difference between building the deck and playing the deck (compared to limited play where deck building is a key).
People don't tweak lists because they don't know how to do it. Is it bad ethics not to know enough about your deck to dare change things ? No.
I can't see where the bad ethics are. Casual formats are where you will try to power yourself down to keep the fun up (Multiplayer Commander is a good example), not sanctionned tournaments.
Oddly, I agree with everything you've said except one...how good this is for the game.
If you survey 50% of the people who play at our FNM, they'll tell you that they hate net deckers and not because they can't afford to go out and buy cards. You should see their collections.
If 50% of the people I know hate the practice, how is this good for the game?
I will say, as someone who builds his own decks (and a noob at it), it can be a lot of fun but also fustrating. I usually make creations that look like a 60-card EDH. I can't think of but 2 decks I own that have a playset of anything. Why have 4 Serra Angel when I can put 4 different angels in there!!!
I realize that I will be uncompetitive but I simply enjoy playing this way. I only ever thought about netdecking because of the unkind comments from a minority of other players who think I am an idiot for not making a more competitive deck.
My response? I just play with friends for the most part now. I'm not angry in the slightest. I just realize that some formats are not appropriate for my play-style.
I don't know who Stephen Fry is and Craig Ferguson wasn't even funny on Drew Carry, so no.
Swearing all the time makes you look inbred or like you live on Welfare. End of story.
I didn't read past this post cause I needed to comment.
Swearing does not make you look inbred or live on Welfare. Grownups curse. If that's something your delicate ears can't handle, just ask someone not to curse around you. Most people will be polite enough not to. I know I am. However I curse alot and it's just part of the culture I grew up in the last 13 years in the Navy. The old addage is very true in the Navy. "You have a mouth like a sailor". On the side though, I know when it's not appropriate (around kids under 13). I curse in front of my parents, at my work, at my LGS, at home, with my friends, online, etc. However; I'm very educated, not inbred, have a great job so don't need welfare. Those kind of comments about people who curse are generally from bible thumpers or scared little children in a grown-ups body. As I tell most people that have problems with cursing. It's a word in the english language, get over it. That does not apply to racial slurs.
The meaning of “self-proclaimed” is pretty simple, regardless of whether or not you like it. You called yourself a rules lawyer; that makes you a “self-proclaimed rules lawyer.”
No, it does not fizzle. How many more times would you like to be corrected? I’m a RA working towards level 1 (passed the practise test first time, just got to get a few more tournaments under level 2 supervision and I’m there) and I’m not the only person telling you you’re wrong, but still you persist...
“Fizzle” is a phrase sometimes used by some players to describe a particular occurrence in Magic, but it is not found anywhere in the rules. The rules describe this as a spell or ability “being countered on resolution” and it happens when the target (or all of the targets, if there’s more than one) become(s) illegal Iafter the spell/ability is cast but before it resolves. In this instance, the action itself was legal when it was performed and therefore does not need to be reversed. This is not the same thing as attempting to perform an illegal action – if an action is illegal at the time a player attempts it, the action should be reversed.
Actually, this is not entirely correct. If a spell with multiple targets has some but not all of its targets become illegal, then it will affect the legal targets as normal, produce any other effects (such as “draw a card”) as normal, and leave the illegal ones unaffected. However, if all the targets of a spell or ability become illegal, then the spell is countered in its entirety. If, for example, you use Cryptic Command to bounce a creature and draw a card and the creature gains hexproof, not only will the creature stay in play but you won’t draw a card. Similarly, if the player targeted by Life’s Finale gains protection from black (à la Seht’s Tiger), the spell will not destroy any creatures.
TL;DR: I’d like to add another suggestion-
3: Learn the rules. If you’re a new player, obviously you get a free pass here, but if you’ve been playing for quite a while and still don’t understand priority and the stack, you’ve got a problem. I’m definitely not saying that players with poor rules knowledge shouldn’t come to play – after all, playing is how they will learn the rules in the first place – but they have to recognise their inferior knowledge and defer to others instead of boldly insisting they’re right in the face of more experienced players telling them they’re wrong. Hint hint, Dakmoor Queen.
_____________
Looks like someone ignored my earlier suggestion “2. Don’t criticise others for their deck choices” but hey let’s see if there’s a sensible argument in here...
What d’you mean “admitted” he’d only been playing for 3 months? Why is this a bad thing? Shouldn’t it be good that your player group gets new players? I’m also slightly nonplussed by the brag about playing since Revised, but whatever.
If he’s a new player, he probably hasn’t learnt enough about the game to build a decent deck of his own bat. Letting him play with a deck someone else designed seems like a good way for him to learn about synergy, deck design, mana curve, all sorts of things.
Yes you are.
No, they’re providing what’s known as a “metagame.” It’s like rock-paper-scissors, only a bit more complicated. Unless you seriously think people should be made to deliberately build bad decks – which would be asinine – you should realise that a certain number of competing strategies will emerge as decks get tested and refined. People tweak their own decks to improve their matches against other deck-types in their meta. You have a couple of choices – play the metagame, lose but don’t whine about it, or don’t play. Option d) “ignore the metagame, lose, and whine about it” will make you quite unpopular and brings me back to this –
Yes you are.
I’m sorry, but what sort of backwards logic is this? What d'you mean "earned the right to buy a deck if they choose to do so"? I can sort of understand your knee-jerk “net-decking is bad m’kay” stance but how on earth do you come to the conclusion that it’s more acceptable for experienced players to net-deck than for inexperienced players to do it? Or that it’s more acceptable for an adult with their own disposable income to net-deck than it is for a kid to spend his (by the sounds of it, rather generous) allowance on net-decking? This is utterly ridiculous.
TL;DR: Now to deliver a final broadside to the SS Sore Loser and point out the most obvious argument – there is a finite number of possible decks, vastly reduced when you consider that most of those aren’t remotely competitive (tribal Titans, anyone?), and a HUGE global community of players all building decks. It’s very, very difficult indeed to come up with something that is both genuinely unique and actually worth turning up to a tournament with. As some strategies are kind of obvious or well established (like RDW, white weenie, or Ux control) lots of players will produce fairly similar lists - without ever having conferred or taking any outside help. Even if you think you’ve come up with something totally novel, the odds are you’re probably not the first person to have thought of it.
I’m currently playing what I would call “WUB control.” I built it in my room, with the computer switched off, without discussing it with anybody else. It turns out there’s a deck people are calling Solar Flare, and a lot of people think that’s what I’m playing. But I don’t have any Lillianas, Snapcasters, or Phantasmal Images, and I’m not running Sun Titan. Where does something like my deck fit into your “net-decking” philosophy? I didn’t copy it from anyone and it doesn’t look anything like the lists online, but it’s still plainly not that original.
There is a HUGE difference between building a deck that ends up looking like somebody else's deck (of course there are only so many decks you can build) and simply copying a deck off the net.
The former at least takes some amount of thought, and if you HAVE put in that thought then I don't care if your deck DOES look like another deck. It's unlikely to be a card for card rip off of it.
And no, I am NOT a sore loser. I have every card in standard that's worth its salt and can easily put together a "net" deck.
But to what ends?
To just win?
Exactly what kind of satisfaction am I going to get out of walking out of an FNM saying "Hey, I won because I copied a deck off the net" while my friends look at me with disdain because they hate net deckers as much as I do?
Plus, at that point it simply comes down to the luck of the draw. Sure, you need some playing skill. But I could give my daughter a net deck to play with and she'd top 8 for certain. And she hasn't played this game in 15 years.
I don't get the enjoyment of playing a net deck or playing against one. Maybe you do. And if so, power to you. I'm not saying that net decking should be made illegal or anything like that. I'm simply saying that I don't like it and that 50% of the people who play FNM with me hate it as well.
So how is this any good for this game?
I'm not an idiot, but quite frankly, this puzzles me. If the only thing that matters to people is winning (and some go as far as cheating to do so) then maybe it's time for me to either put this game away or simply fight fire with fire.
I just wonder how much fun I'm going to have when I play...
And then continue to yawn my way to win once I've slagstormed the swarm of tokens or whatever in my way.
Sorry, it takes very few brain cells to play WRR. It takes even fewer to just copy it off the net.
At least some people (power to them) are making changes to the deck because it's taking a beating from Mirran. I applaud those folks. They're actually using some intelligence.
But go online, download a deck list, buy cards, play deck?
Might as well just phone it in.
And no, I'm not a sore loser. I've won my share of FNMs with decks that I actually thought of on my own. Did they probably look like established decks? I'd be surprised if it didn't. But at least I didn't just copy down a deck list and play it.
Yes, I have a problem with that. I accept that people do it. I realize that it's never going to stop. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
But maybe me and 50% of the people I play FNN with are just wrong and all the net deckers are right.
There is a HUGE difference between building a deck that ends up looking like somebody else's deck (of course there are only so many decks you can build) and simply copying a deck off the net.
The former at least takes some amount of thought, and if you HAVE put in that thought then I don't care if your deck DOES look like another deck. It's unlikely to be a card for card rip off of it.
And no, I am NOT a sore loser. I have every card in standard that's worth its salt and can easily put together a "net" deck.
But to what ends?
To just win?
Exactly what kind of satisfaction am I going to get out of walking out of an FNM saying "Hey, I won because I copied a deck off the net" while my friends look at me with disdain because they hate net deckers as much as I do?
Plus, at that point it simply comes down to the luck of the draw. Sure, you need some playing skill. But I could give my daughter a net deck to play with and she'd top 8 for certain. And she hasn't played this game in 15 years.
I don't get the enjoyment of playing a net deck or playing against one. Maybe you do. And if so, power to you. I'm not saying that net decking should be made illegal or anything like that. I'm simply saying that I don't like it and that 50% of the people who play FNM with me hate it as well.
So how is this any good for this game?
I'm not an idiot, but quite frankly, this puzzles me. If the only thing that matters to people is winning (and some go as far as cheating to do so) then maybe it's time for me to either put this game away or simply fight fire with fire.
I just wonder how much fun I'm going to have when I play...
And then continue to yawn my way to win once I've slagstormed the swarm of tokens or whatever in my way.
Sorry, it takes very few brain cells to play WRR. It takes even fewer to just copy it off the net.
At least some people (power to them) are making changes to the deck because it's taking a beating from Mirran. I applaud those folks. They're actually using some intelligence.
But go online, download a deck list, buy cards, play deck?
Might as well just phone it in.
And no, I'm not a sore loser. I've won my share of FNMs with decks that I actually thought of on my own. Did they probably look like established decks? I'd be surprised if it didn't. But at least I didn't just copy down a deck list and play it.
Yes, I have a problem with that. I accept that people do it. I realize that it's never going to stop. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
But maybe me and 50% of the people I play FNN with are just wrong and all the net deckers are right.
If so, it's time to go play something else.
My 2 cents for whatever they're worth.
learn 2 play.
you should be happy that people netdeck, that means u can easily predict the field and homebrew your awesome deck.
how do u think netdeck happens? it usually comes from a deck that has proven its worth and shows positive results time and time again. that #10 player in your store does this and can beat that exact 75netdeck time and time again, why cant you? build to win, dont build to sit on your high-horse and complain
oh and how do u think decks get perfected? practicing and changing cards!!! did you know that pros get paid to play and write articles where as myself works and goes to a university full time doesnt have the time to test every interaction in standard
One - Metagame. Caw blade, Valakut, whatever deck in the "rock-paper-scissors" dance it is you hate the most, metagame is the making of competitive Magic. Embrace it or don't play.
Agree. Embrace it or don't play. Doesn't mean I have to like it. That is my point that you seem to be missing.
Two - What's with this nonsensical assertion that it's more ok for wealthier/self-made/more experienced players to net-deck than others? "Earned the right to buy a deck if they choose to do so"? "Admitted" he's only been playing for three months (as if that's something to be looked down on) ? It's just crap - hypocritical crap - and I'm astonished that you present this as a viable criticism of certain net-deckers.
My experience has been that long time players net deck because they know that the deck is going to perform well from experience. They have some smarts. They suffer from what I call the "win at all costs" syndrome.
The new player, from my experience, does it simply out of laziness to learn the game. They can't be bothered with the learning curve or paying their dues. They just want to win right away, so they go and buy a deck. And yeah, maybe they'll still lose to a better player with an excellent deck, but they're still going to mop up the floor with good players who maybe either don't have the money for a top tier deck or decide to play a more creative deck because they're so bored with the same old same old.
If we didn't have all these new people through their laziness net decking, players who would normally finish maybe 10th to 14th out of 30 at a FNM wouldn't be finishing 25th to 30th because of all the lazy people just buying decks.
Sorry if you see this as hypocritical crap. But to me, it's no different from the guy who wants to be a top pop singer but doesn't want to pay his dues first. He just wants some hot shot producer to auto-tune his vocals to death, back him with top musicians and give him a record contract because his daddy has big bucks and paid off the record label or is a name by himself. The entertainment industry is loaded with "stars" who made it simply because their daddy was a big star. They have no talent and they know it but it doesn't matter. Money talks.
And yeah, I get it. That's the way the world works. It's not what you know but who you know. Doesn't mean I have to like it.
Want to call me a hypocrite? It's no skin off my nose. I've been called worse.
Three - Don't you recognise that playing with a deck somebody else built is a good way for new players to learn both to play and to build their own decks in the future? Why is the new player who net-decks taking so much flak?
I would SO agree with this if it weren't for one thing...they don't. They see how easy it is to win with a net deck and say to themselves, "Why should I knock myself out trying to build my own deck when all I have to do is buy one?"
This is the same problem we have in our school systems (my wife is a high school math teacher going on 30 plus years). Kids say, "Why knock myself out to get an A when I can pass with a D and go out and play with my friends instead of wasting time doing homework?"
Again, I get it. This is the way a good part of our world is. Do as little work as possible and get as much as you can out of that little bit. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
Four, a new issue - If there is an entry fee for an event, how can you realistically expect anybody to turn up with anything other than the best deck they can build, deliberately hampering their chances of making a return on that fee? I play all sorts of crazy crap around the casual table, but I am not turning up to a £5 - £10 event with 30 players to play anything other than my A game. Sorry, I just don't have the cash to piss away.
This is the only thing you've said that I can't argue with at all. Yeah, it sucks to spend $6 a night and go home with nothing week after week. I've done it plenty of times. In fact, the last 3 FNMs I went 1-3...and with decent decks. Maybe not tier 1 but definitely tier 2.
In the old days of FNM, these decks would have gone top 8.
Today? Not a prayer. I have never seen so many top tier decks in a room in my life. You would think it was Worlds or something.
This game wasn't always like this, at least not in my neck of the woods.
Again, I get it. Doesn't mean I have to like it. Maybe if $6 was a lot of money to me I'd just bring my net deck to FNM too. But I weigh that against the looks I'll get AND the respect I'll lose and it's just not worth it.
Plus, the week I beat the 10th ranked player in the state with my own deck was absolutely the best moment of my magic life...something I wouldn't have gotten if I simply net decked.
Maybe these kids think they can buy happiness. Maybe they do. I don't know. I can't relate to that mentality. It would be like you handing me your deck for the night and told me to go play it. So what if I win? It wasn't my deck. I was just a body in the chair.
I don't expect others to feel like I do. Again, I never claimed that my feelings are right and everybody else's is wrong.
I'd like to see more people put a little more thought into this game and not just buy their way into it.
As a realist...I know that's not going to happen. On that level, I accept it.
LandBoySteve is clearly delusional. "Play just to win?" Uhhh, yeah. Who doesn't like winning? Also, how do you know that the people who play the "boring, no-skill-required" decks don't also enjoy playing them? They get to win and enjoy playing. What a concept. I've also played since Revised (which is an awful excuse for pseudo-self empowerment), and I will be the first to admit I'll netdeck all day long. Do I also homebrew decks for the hell of it to play casually with friends? Sure, why not? However, as aforementioned, I'm not about to sign up for a $5-$20 tournament with a deck I believe gives me less of a chance to win than using a netdeck.
LandBoySteve is clearly delusional. "Play just to win?" Uhhh, yeah. Who doesn't like winning? Also, how do you know that the people who play the "boring, no-skill-required" decks don't also enjoy playing them? They get to win and enjoy playing. I've also played since Revised (which is an awful excuse for psuedo-self empowerment), and I will be the first to admit I'll netdeck all day long. Do I also homebrew decks for the hell of it to play casually with friends? Sure, why not. However, as aforementioned, I'm not about to sign up for a $5-$20 tournament with a deck I believe gives me less of a chance to win than using a netdeck.
Well, tonight I've been called a hypocrite and delusional. Gotta wonder where the mods are.
Hey, different strokes. I couldn't be happy if somebody handed me a tier 1 deck and said, "Go play it" and I won. Doesn't mean anything to me. I put nothing into it. I was just a body in a seat.
But hey, if winning is all that matters to you, even if it means buying a deck that you put absolutely no thought into at all, power to you.
You can hand a tier 1 deck to an awful player and they're not guaranteed to win, though...it takes more than a good deck to win. Chances are, if you are a good player piloting a good deck, you're gonna succeed. I don't see the reason for such disdain.
Also, you stated earlier that "75% of players at my LGS play WRR, and I could easily tailor a homebrew to beat it, but it'd lose to other decks." This logic is flawed beyond reason. Why are you worried about other decks if 75% of your opponents are playing WRR? Don't you just build a deck to beat WRR and take your chances on the fact that you won't be playing against other decks? Look at Kibler's "Blade Breaker" deck right before rotation. He tailored it strictly to beat Caw Blade (which he had ironically made popular to begin with), and didn't care as much about his other matchups because a large majority of the meta was infested with Caw Blade. There is no "perfect deck," but showing up to an event unprepared (especially when you have a good idea of your meta) is plain silly.
You can hand a tier 1 deck to an awful player and they're not guaranteed to win, though...it takes more than a good deck to win. Chances are, if you are a good player piloting a good deck, you're gonna succeed. I don't see the reason for such disdain.
Why the disdain? Because I grew up in an era where we didn't have the info available to us now...at least nowhere near as easily.
We had to play against decks, see what was out there and then work on ways to beat those decks. We couldn't just go to the Internet and download a deck list. At least I sure as heck didn't know where to do that back in 1994. This site itself, if you check whois, has only been around since 2005.
What in tar nation did people do in the 10 years before?
I know what I did. I looked through the available cards to see what was out there and tried to put together a competitive deck.
Those days seem to be dead and buried.
That is where my disdain comes from, agree with it or not, it is what it is.
Also, you stated earlier that "75% of players at my LGS play WRR, and I could easily tailor a homebrew to beat it, but it'd lose to other decks." This logic is flawed beyond reason. Why are you worried about other decks if 75% of your opponents are playing WRR? Don't you just build a deck to beat WRR and take your chances on the fact that you won't be playing against other decks? Look at Kibler's "Blade Breaker" deck right before rotation. He tailored it strictly to beat Caw Blade (which he had ironically made popular to begin with), and didn't care as much about his other matchups because a large majority of the meta was infested with Caw Blade. There is no "perfect deck," but showing up to an event unprepared (especially when you have a good idea of your meta) is plain silly.
It's simple statistics. Given I'll probably play 3 out of my 4 matches against WRR (actually last week was only 2) I'm going to go 3-1. That record in a 30 person field (what we normally have) won't land me top 8. At best 9th to 11th based on past weeks.
To have the best chance of top 8 I have to play WRR as it seems to be dominating our meta (6 of the top 8 decks were WRR)
And yes, you're right, there is no perfect deck. But if it's a choice between my anti WRR home brew and WRR itself, I've been playing this game long enough to know that I have a better chance winning with WRR giving I won't be playing 4 matches against WRR.
Simple statistics.
So I have 2 choices.
1. Net deck, give myself the best chance of winning and hope when I do that I actually care.
2. Make my home brew and hope I'm competitive. At least if I win I'll feel good.
I don't expect others to feel like I do. I get that to many winning is all that matters. I don't understand the mentality but I accept it as being what it is.
I just don't have to like it...which has been my only point through this, what has become a very tiresome, thread.
Why the disdain? Because I grew up in an era where we didn't have the info available to us now...at least nowhere near as easily.
We had to play against decks, see what was out there and then work on ways to beat those decks. We couldn't just go to the Internet and download a deck list. At least I sure as heck didn't know where to do that back in 1994. This site itself, if you check whois, has only been around since 2005.
What in tar nation did people do in the 10 years before?
I know what I did. I looked through the available cards to see what was out there and tried to put together a competitive deck.
Those days seem to be dead and buried.
That is where my disdain comes from, agree with it or not, it is what it is.
I am in the same boat. I grew up in the same era. This is irrelevant. Times have changed. There isn't a time machine, nor can we do anything about the past except embrace nostalgia.
It's simple statistics. Given I'll probably play 3 out of my 4 matches against WRR (actually last week was only 2) I'm going to go 3-1. That record in a 30 person field (what we normally have) won't land me top 8. At best 9th to 11th based on past weeks.
With a 30-person field I sure hope you'd be playing more than 4 rounds...
To have the best chance of top 8 I have to play WRR as it seems to be dominating our meta (6 of the top 8 decks were WRR)
With 6 of the top 8 decks being WRR, chances are if you're in the winning bracket you'd have played most of them (and beat them with your anti-WRR list, making you a member of the top 8).
And yes, you're right, there is no perfect deck. But if it's a choice between my anti WRR home brew and WRR itself, I've been playing this game long enough to know that I have a better chance winning with WRR giving I won't be playing 4 matches against WRR.
Simple statistics.
Yes, let's discuss these "simple statistics" a bit more. You're saying: "I won't be playing 4 matches against WRR, so I'd rather run a deck that loses to WRR the 3 times I play it and win the other random matchup than build a deck that beats WRR and consistently go 3-1 every tournament."
This makes zero sense. You can homebrew and go 1-3, or homebrew and go 3-1, hosing WRR and laughing at all the netdeckers along the way. Your logic is skewed.
Even if you were to run WRR, the odds of playing against another WRR deck don't change, and you'd have less of a chance beating the mirror than you would beating WRR with an anti-WRR list.
I am in the same boat. I grew up in the same era. This is irrelevant. Times have changed. There isn't a time machine, nor can we do anything about the past except embrace nostalgia.
With a 30-person field I sure hope you'd be playing more than 4 rounds...
With 6 of the top 8 decks being WRR, chances are if you're in the winning bracket you'd have played most of them (and beat them with your anti-WRR list, making you a member of the top 8).
Yes, let's discuss this "simple statistics" a bit more. You're saying: "I won't be playing 4 matches against WRR, so I'd rather run a deck that loses to WRR the 3 times I play it and win the other random matchup than build a deck that beats WRR and consistently go 3-1 every tournament."
This makes zero sense. You can homebrew and go 1-3, or homebrew and go 3-1, hosing WRR and laughing at all the netdeckers along the way. Your logic is skewed.
Even if you were to run WRR, the odds of playing against another WRR deck don't change.
1. Net deck
2. Build a deck to beat net decks.
Can't argue with your logic. Unfortunately, our establishment does 4 rounds to get to the top 8. That is out of my control. And no, there is nowhere else to play in my area. So 3-1 won't get me to top 8. That is simple math.
And if I get really screwed like last week and only play against 2 WRR, I go 2-2. Yeah, it's still better than the 1-3 I went home with, but not good enough.
Simple observation of my meta. If the majority of the winning decks are WRR, then my best chance is still to play that deck because they're beating all the other home brews that haven't caught on yet. And yes, I get that if I do beat some of them maybe the top 8 will shift slightly and I might sneak in. It is certainly possible.
But my best chance statistically, since nobody at our FNM has proven to beat WRR consistently outside of a couple of people, is to play WRR.
Which brings me back to my personal decision not to net deck. It won't give me the satisfaction I'm looking for.
For what it's worth, after I get the rest of the cards that I need for my anti WRR deck, I'm going to play it and see how I do. If I top 8 I'll be the first one to come back to this thread and personally tell you that you were right and I was dead wrong.
I hope you do perform well with your list, and not because I want you to admit you were wrong haha.
If WRR is that dominant, start maindecking answers for it and dedicate some open sideboard slots to some of the other homebrews in your area that have given you trouble. Part of netdecking is taking the same net deck and maindecking answers that will increase your chances of beating the mirror.
I agree with LandBoySteve: Net decking is a form of cheating.
It's sort of like being new to poker but having a World Series of Poker champion standing behind you and telling you when to keep, fold, go all in, etc.
It would be analogous to your example if, say, you had a Magic pro standing over your shoulder telling you how and when to play your cards.
The fact is, almost everyone (in some form or another) has access to net deck lists, so there is a level playing field. And please don't respond with the "Yeah, but you need $xxxxxxxxx to be competetive!" That argument is trite and baseless. There are competetive decks that don't cost an arm and a leg. Plus, what is/isn't expensive is all relative anyway.
I highly doubt he's on this forum... He didn't seem like that kind of person, but okay.
Im speaking in hypotheticals. If someone doesnt know how to shuffle, then it is on them. There are multiple ways that someone can learn and if they choose not to it is there fault. Thats what I was getting at. I've seen people damaging cards by shuffling and say "well, there not my cards...so I don't care"
actually on that note: my 2 main points to add to the topic.
I agree with LandBoySteve: Net decking is a form of cheating.
It's sort of like being new to poker but having a World Series of Poker champion standing behind you and telling you when to keep, fold, go all in, etc.
I netdeck.....so im a cheater huh?
Lets take a step back. I play edh. I netdeck (mind you, i do ask the person first), then I'll adapt the deck to fit my meta. I use netdecking as a basis for my ideas really. And if someone asks, i give credit to whoever the creator is. Netdecking, as I see it, is like writing a paper. If you copy+paste, then yes, you lose respect. But if you use it as a basis and add your thoughts to it, then i see no issue with it. I also report back to whoever created the deck to let them know what works and what falls short.
The fact that someone would even claim this makes me feel sad for them. If it was cheating it would be against the rules, which it's not; it's actually encouraged or magic the gathering.com wouldn't be putting up deck lists in their articles.
We all don't have time to sit down and brew and test and round the edges off of decklists until they're etched in stone and ready to be thrown into a tested environment. Some people take for granted how much time that actually takes to accomplish. Not to mention having a capable play test group, which is even harder than finding the time to do this than trying to fit the time in when you have to work and go to school 60+ hrs a week combined.
If you wanna' be that dude sitting across from WRR with your r/b/u burn/draw/hand control disrupt tempo i dont even know wtf it's supposed to be and get stomped then that is your choice. If you don't like it then stick to draft and limited like the rest of the casual players, or play EDH with a group of other people who don't like net decking because EDH is pretty much all net decking now (at least at my LGS).
And I'm sorry LandBoy Steve that you played in a time where people didn't have access to the internet. I'm sorry you can't step out of the tar pit with your prehistoric notions and nostalgia about what this game used to be before that damn internetz killt itz. If I had a choice of playing magic blind in an era where I could go -
T1: Dark Ritual, Hynotic Specter, lol, go
or
T1: Black Lotus; Necropotence, lol go
and to be playing in an era where I can look up on the internet other people's thoughts and ways to deal with something like that I would gladly choose the latter and dare say that anyone with a brain would also.
I didn't read past this post cause I needed to comment.
Swearing does not make you look inbred or live on Welfare. Grownups curse. If that's something your delicate ears can't handle, just ask someone not to curse around you. Most people will be polite enough not to. I know I am. However I curse alot and it's just part of the culture I grew up in the last 13 years in the Navy. The old addage is very true in the Navy. "You have a mouth like a sailor". On the side though, I know when it's not appropriate (around kids under 13). I curse in front of my parents, at my work, at my LGS, at home, with my friends, online, etc. However; I'm very educated, not inbred, have a great job so don't need welfare. Those kind of comments about people who curse are generally from bible thumpers or scared little children in a grown-ups body. As I tell most people that have problems with cursing. It's a word in the english language, get over it. That does not apply to racial slurs.
Really, dude? Just, really? You don't know anything about me personally and from that post it actually looks like you're suggesting that I'm, as you so tastelessly put it `a bible thumper` because I don't like to be around someone who can't stop swearing because it's been etched into their vocabulary and they don't realize that it's tasteless, unprofessional and just down right ignorant to constantly be throwing swear words around like they're vowels in words. I, in fact, am not a bible thumper and I know plenty of people who don't like that way people talk. It's like being around someone you can't understand because they're speaking so heavily in ebonics or are new to this country. It's acceptable, yeah, but you don't have to like it and you don't have to associate yourself with that person. Ask anyone who runs a business or has a college degree in any kind of medicine or law. Swearing looks bad.
And yeah, I understand you were in the Navy, and if you were around me swearing non stop I wouldn't think twice about it because of what you've done for this country and the respect that comes with your choice in profession, but I still wouldn't like it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
@Marquoth: I know the rules. Except that one, apparently. One can not know every rule! I know how the stack works, how phases and steps work... I know the rules. I don't "proclaim" myself a rules lawyer, I've been called it before... Because I have actually read the whole rule book and know them so intricately. Of course some knowledge is going to slip out! I have a life and have to remember things for my real life! How dare you insult me by saying I don't understand the rules. How dare you look down on me!
EDIT: I'm going to go to the angry dome for a few minutes, if anybody needs me.
1. Don't be a jerk if you lose. Period. Go play a children's card game if you're going to act like a tool.
> I reserve the right to be angry if I draw 8 lands in a row and lose because of it.
2. Please talk to me while we're playing. Don't just stare at me with your strongest poker face and take the game more serious than you take your life. We're here to have fun and make friends beyond competing.
> Don't make me shake your hand. It's not a business deal. Otherwise, sure, though I don't really find that most mtg players have much to say.
3. Wash your body, hair, clothes and brush your teeth. Please. For the love of God please.
> The one guy out of a thousand who has bad hygiene won't read this, or if he does, won't care.
4. Keep your open cans of soda or whatever away from the expensive pieces of card board. Stuff inevitably will get knocked over and you will inevitably piss someone off when you dump your kool-aid on their Tamogoyf.
> Sure, I guess.
5. Be easy when shuffling my deck.
> Sure.
6. Please return my dice if you ask to borrow it.
> Sure.
Might add: Don't badmouth people within earshot after beating/losing to them.
Otherwise, it's just gripes. Like don't cheat, which covers most forms of bad play the DCI has covered.
1. Don't be a jerk if you lose. Period. Go play a children's card game if you're going to act like a tool.
> I reserve the right to be angry if I draw 8 lands in a row and lose because of it.
2. Please talk to me while we're playing. Don't just stare at me with your strongest poker face and take the game more serious than you take your life. We're here to have fun and make friends beyond competing.
> Don't make me shake your hand. It's not a business deal. Otherwise, sure, though I don't really find that most mtg players have much to say.
3. Wash your body, hair, clothes and brush your teeth. Please. For the love of God please.
> The one guy out of a thousand who has bad hygiene won't read this, or if he does, won't care.
4. Keep your open cans of soda or whatever away from the expensive pieces of card board. Stuff inevitably will get knocked over and you will inevitably piss someone off when you dump your kool-aid on their Tamogoyf.
> Sure, I guess.
5. Be easy when shuffling my deck.
> Sure.
6. Please return my dice if you ask to borrow it.
> Sure.
Might add: Don't badmouth people within earshot after beating/losing to them.
Otherwise, it's just gripes. Like don't cheat, which covers most forms of bad play the DCI has covered.
We've all lost to drawing 8 lands in a row, though. Just because you did doesn't mean I have to hear you cry.
And a lot more than 1 out of a thousand people don't practice proper hygiene when going into public >___>
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Well the ones that bother me:
1. Please say when your turn ends. I hate having to ask everytime you stop playing. How hard is it just to say "go" or "your turn"?
2. Give the player enough time to do their shenanigans before combat damage is dealt. Once blockers are declared doesn't mean that we should skip right to combat. I still need to play Thistledown Liege and Giant Growth on my unblocked creature.
3. Just don't be rude. Period.
Edit: Regarding above posts, does complaining count as being rude? I mean I'm not trying to advocate complaining, but is saying "Man, if only I didn't get mana screwed!" considered rude?
Edit again: Where do you draw the line on net-decking? Many Standard decks look almost identical. Certain strategies and archetypes tend to float around and see more popularity than others.
Personally, I think deck-building is one of the most fun aspects, but there are some times when I do look at internet decks for inspiration. However, I tend to change them to fit my budget and whatnot. My B/W Allies was somewhat inspired by a BoaB article, but I feel like it's different enough to warrant some originality. Besides, it's not like there's a whole lot of Allies to work with.
“Fizzle” is a phrase sometimes used by some players to describe a particular occurrence in Magic, but it is not found anywhere in the rules. The rules describe this as a spell or ability “being countered on resolution” and it happens when the target (or all of the targets, if there’s more than one) become(s) illegal Iafter the spell/ability is cast but before it resolves. In this instance, the action itself was legal when it was performed and therefore does not need to be reversed. This is not the same thing as attempting to perform an illegal action – if an action is illegal at the time a player attempts it, the action should be reversed.
Not fully correct. In the rule book it just "countered".
Fizzling= What happens when a legal action or spell becomes illegal. The spell resolves and still legal actions of the spell take effect and the illegal portions do nothing.
Actually, this is not entirely correct. If a spell with multiple targets has some but not all of its targets become illegal, then it will affect the legal targets as normal, produce any other effects (such as “draw a card”) as normal, and leave the illegal ones unaffected. However, if all the targets of a spell or ability become illegal, then the spell is countered in its entirety. If, for example, you use Cryptic Command to bounce a creature and draw a card and the creature gains hexproof, not only will the creature stay in play but you won’t draw a card. Similarly, if the player targeted by Life’s Finale gains protection from black (à la Seht’s Tiger), the spell will not destroy any creatures.
Actually my statement is correct, countered spells don't resolve. So the only time a spell resolves even though it partial fizzles is when it still has at least one legal target. But i can see how this is misleading to people(should have put may or may not resolve), i also think your description of the rule is misleading so ill just copy paste the rule w/ examples.
608.2b
608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally. However, if any of its targets are illegal, the part of the spell or ability's effect for which it is an illegal target can't perform any actions on that target or make that target perform any actions. The effect may still determine information about illegal targets, though, and other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them.
Example: Sorin's Thirst is a black instant that reads, "Sorin's Thirst deals 2 damage to target creature and you gain 2 life." If the creature isn't a legal target during the resolution of Sorin's Thirst (say, if the creature has gained protection from black or left the battlefield), then Sorin's Thirst is countered. Its controller doesn't gain any life.
Example: Plague Spores reads, "Destroy target nonblack creature and target land. They can't be regenerated." Suppose the same animated land is chosen both as the nonblack creature and as the land, and the color of the creature land is changed to black before Plague Spores resolves. Plagues Spores isn't countered because the black creature land is still a legal target for the "target land" part of the spell. The "destroy target nonblack creature" part of the spell won't affect that permanent, but the "destroy target land" part of the spell will still destroy it. It can't be regenerated.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
If you're talking about my post, then no, it wasn't.
It would be analogous to your example if, say, you had a Magic pro standing over your shoulder telling you how and when to play your cards.
But you essentially DO have a Magic pro standing over your shoulder and telling you what cards to use in your deck.
The fact is, almost everyone (in some form or another) has access to net deck lists, so there is a level playing field. And please don't respond with the "Yeah, but you need $xxxxxxxxx to be competetive!" That argument is trite and baseless. There are competetive decks that don't cost an arm and a leg. Plus, what is/isn't expensive is all relative anyway.
It's a legal and accepted form of cheating, but it's nevertheless a form of cheating. Sort of like how going 1 mile per hour over the speed limit is breaking the law, but the cops probably won't pull you over for it.
You're most definitely not being trolled. I'm 100% serious.
What's like netdecking is being the World Series of Poker champion - you play with a pile of cards that you haven't designed yourself, and what matters, is your skill, not the amount of time you've invested.
In Magic you haven't designed your cards yourself. You've decided which ones to put into your deck. So my example still stands.
Whenever you rely on someone else to do your winning for you in a single-person sport, it's a form of cheating.
The fact that someone would even claim this makes me feel sad for them. If it was cheating it would be against the rules, which it's not; it's actually encouraged or magic the gathering.com wouldn't be putting up deck lists in their articles.
It's not against the rules because there's no way anyone can enforce it. As for Wizards' role, their attitude is probably "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
We all don't have time to sit down and brew and test and round the edges off of decklists until they're etched in stone and ready to be thrown into a tested environment.
That's sort of like me saying, "I don't have time to practice driving and putting, but I should be a master golfer anyway."
Some people take for granted how much time that actually takes to accomplish. Not to mention having a capable play test group, which is even harder than finding the time to do this than trying to fit the time in when you have to work and go to school 60+ hrs a week combined.
Not everyone has the talent to play for a major league football team, either. If you don't have such talent, then practicing until you, or else playing in a minor league or a city league is part of the sport.
If you wanna' be that dude sitting across from WRR with your r/b/u burn/draw/hand control disrupt tempo i dont even know wtf it's supposed to be and get stomped then that is your choice. If you don't like it then stick to draft and limited like the rest of the casual players, or play EDH with a group of other people who don't like net decking because EDH is pretty much all net decking now (at least at my LGS).
You're right. I didn't say I can do anything about it. Just because everyone's doing it doesn't mean it isn't cheating, just like saying that everybody breaks the speed limit doesn't meant that it isn't speeding.
Oddly, I agree with everything you've said except one...how good this is for the game.
If you survey 50% of the people who play at our FNM, they'll tell you that they hate net deckers and not because they can't afford to go out and buy cards. You should see their collections.
If 50% of the people I know hate the practice, how is this good for the game?
I realize that I will be uncompetitive but I simply enjoy playing this way. I only ever thought about netdecking because of the unkind comments from a minority of other players who think I am an idiot for not making a more competitive deck.
My response? I just play with friends for the most part now. I'm not angry in the slightest. I just realize that some formats are not appropriate for my play-style.
I didn't read past this post cause I needed to comment.
Swearing does not make you look inbred or live on Welfare. Grownups curse. If that's something your delicate ears can't handle, just ask someone not to curse around you. Most people will be polite enough not to. I know I am. However I curse alot and it's just part of the culture I grew up in the last 13 years in the Navy. The old addage is very true in the Navy. "You have a mouth like a sailor". On the side though, I know when it's not appropriate (around kids under 13). I curse in front of my parents, at my work, at my LGS, at home, with my friends, online, etc. However; I'm very educated, not inbred, have a great job so don't need welfare. Those kind of comments about people who curse are generally from bible thumpers or scared little children in a grown-ups body. As I tell most people that have problems with cursing. It's a word in the english language, get over it. That does not apply to racial slurs.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
There is a HUGE difference between building a deck that ends up looking like somebody else's deck (of course there are only so many decks you can build) and simply copying a deck off the net.
The former at least takes some amount of thought, and if you HAVE put in that thought then I don't care if your deck DOES look like another deck. It's unlikely to be a card for card rip off of it.
And no, I am NOT a sore loser. I have every card in standard that's worth its salt and can easily put together a "net" deck.
But to what ends?
To just win?
Exactly what kind of satisfaction am I going to get out of walking out of an FNM saying "Hey, I won because I copied a deck off the net" while my friends look at me with disdain because they hate net deckers as much as I do?
Plus, at that point it simply comes down to the luck of the draw. Sure, you need some playing skill. But I could give my daughter a net deck to play with and she'd top 8 for certain. And she hasn't played this game in 15 years.
I don't get the enjoyment of playing a net deck or playing against one. Maybe you do. And if so, power to you. I'm not saying that net decking should be made illegal or anything like that. I'm simply saying that I don't like it and that 50% of the people who play FNM with me hate it as well.
So how is this any good for this game?
I'm not an idiot, but quite frankly, this puzzles me. If the only thing that matters to people is winning (and some go as far as cheating to do so) then maybe it's time for me to either put this game away or simply fight fire with fire.
I just wonder how much fun I'm going to have when I play...
Turn 1 - Forest, Birds
Turn 2 - Forest, Rampant Growth, fetch mountain
Turn 3 - Forest, Sad Robot, fetch mountain
Turn 4 - Forest, P-Titan, fetch Kessig/Inky
And then continue to yawn my way to win once I've slagstormed the swarm of tokens or whatever in my way.
Sorry, it takes very few brain cells to play WRR. It takes even fewer to just copy it off the net.
At least some people (power to them) are making changes to the deck because it's taking a beating from Mirran. I applaud those folks. They're actually using some intelligence.
But go online, download a deck list, buy cards, play deck?
Might as well just phone it in.
And no, I'm not a sore loser. I've won my share of FNMs with decks that I actually thought of on my own. Did they probably look like established decks? I'd be surprised if it didn't. But at least I didn't just copy down a deck list and play it.
Yes, I have a problem with that. I accept that people do it. I realize that it's never going to stop. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
But maybe me and 50% of the people I play FNN with are just wrong and all the net deckers are right.
If so, it's time to go play something else.
My 2 cents for whatever they're worth.
learn 2 play.
you should be happy that people netdeck, that means u can easily predict the field and homebrew your awesome deck.
how do u think netdeck happens? it usually comes from a deck that has proven its worth and shows positive results time and time again. that #10 player in your store does this and can beat that exact 75netdeck time and time again, why cant you? build to win, dont build to sit on your high-horse and complain
oh and how do u think decks get perfected? practicing and changing cards!!! did you know that pros get paid to play and write articles where as myself works and goes to a university full time doesnt have the time to test every interaction in standard
Agree. Embrace it or don't play. Doesn't mean I have to like it. That is my point that you seem to be missing.
My experience has been that long time players net deck because they know that the deck is going to perform well from experience. They have some smarts. They suffer from what I call the "win at all costs" syndrome.
The new player, from my experience, does it simply out of laziness to learn the game. They can't be bothered with the learning curve or paying their dues. They just want to win right away, so they go and buy a deck. And yeah, maybe they'll still lose to a better player with an excellent deck, but they're still going to mop up the floor with good players who maybe either don't have the money for a top tier deck or decide to play a more creative deck because they're so bored with the same old same old.
If we didn't have all these new people through their laziness net decking, players who would normally finish maybe 10th to 14th out of 30 at a FNM wouldn't be finishing 25th to 30th because of all the lazy people just buying decks.
Sorry if you see this as hypocritical crap. But to me, it's no different from the guy who wants to be a top pop singer but doesn't want to pay his dues first. He just wants some hot shot producer to auto-tune his vocals to death, back him with top musicians and give him a record contract because his daddy has big bucks and paid off the record label or is a name by himself. The entertainment industry is loaded with "stars" who made it simply because their daddy was a big star. They have no talent and they know it but it doesn't matter. Money talks.
And yeah, I get it. That's the way the world works. It's not what you know but who you know. Doesn't mean I have to like it.
Want to call me a hypocrite? It's no skin off my nose. I've been called worse.
I would SO agree with this if it weren't for one thing...they don't. They see how easy it is to win with a net deck and say to themselves, "Why should I knock myself out trying to build my own deck when all I have to do is buy one?"
This is the same problem we have in our school systems (my wife is a high school math teacher going on 30 plus years). Kids say, "Why knock myself out to get an A when I can pass with a D and go out and play with my friends instead of wasting time doing homework?"
Again, I get it. This is the way a good part of our world is. Do as little work as possible and get as much as you can out of that little bit. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
This is the only thing you've said that I can't argue with at all. Yeah, it sucks to spend $6 a night and go home with nothing week after week. I've done it plenty of times. In fact, the last 3 FNMs I went 1-3...and with decent decks. Maybe not tier 1 but definitely tier 2.
In the old days of FNM, these decks would have gone top 8.
Today? Not a prayer. I have never seen so many top tier decks in a room in my life. You would think it was Worlds or something.
This game wasn't always like this, at least not in my neck of the woods.
Again, I get it. Doesn't mean I have to like it. Maybe if $6 was a lot of money to me I'd just bring my net deck to FNM too. But I weigh that against the looks I'll get AND the respect I'll lose and it's just not worth it.
Plus, the week I beat the 10th ranked player in the state with my own deck was absolutely the best moment of my magic life...something I wouldn't have gotten if I simply net decked.
Maybe these kids think they can buy happiness. Maybe they do. I don't know. I can't relate to that mentality. It would be like you handing me your deck for the night and told me to go play it. So what if I win? It wasn't my deck. I was just a body in the chair.
I don't expect others to feel like I do. Again, I never claimed that my feelings are right and everybody else's is wrong.
I'd like to see more people put a little more thought into this game and not just buy their way into it.
As a realist...I know that's not going to happen. On that level, I accept it.
But I don't have to like it.
As you said...embrace it or don't play.
Something else I can't argue with.
Well, tonight I've been called a hypocrite and delusional. Gotta wonder where the mods are.
Hey, different strokes. I couldn't be happy if somebody handed me a tier 1 deck and said, "Go play it" and I won. Doesn't mean anything to me. I put nothing into it. I was just a body in a seat.
But hey, if winning is all that matters to you, even if it means buying a deck that you put absolutely no thought into at all, power to you.
Also, you stated earlier that "75% of players at my LGS play WRR, and I could easily tailor a homebrew to beat it, but it'd lose to other decks." This logic is flawed beyond reason. Why are you worried about other decks if 75% of your opponents are playing WRR? Don't you just build a deck to beat WRR and take your chances on the fact that you won't be playing against other decks? Look at Kibler's "Blade Breaker" deck right before rotation. He tailored it strictly to beat Caw Blade (which he had ironically made popular to begin with), and didn't care as much about his other matchups because a large majority of the meta was infested with Caw Blade. There is no "perfect deck," but showing up to an event unprepared (especially when you have a good idea of your meta) is plain silly.
Why the disdain? Because I grew up in an era where we didn't have the info available to us now...at least nowhere near as easily.
We had to play against decks, see what was out there and then work on ways to beat those decks. We couldn't just go to the Internet and download a deck list. At least I sure as heck didn't know where to do that back in 1994. This site itself, if you check whois, has only been around since 2005.
What in tar nation did people do in the 10 years before?
I know what I did. I looked through the available cards to see what was out there and tried to put together a competitive deck.
Those days seem to be dead and buried.
That is where my disdain comes from, agree with it or not, it is what it is.
It's simple statistics. Given I'll probably play 3 out of my 4 matches against WRR (actually last week was only 2) I'm going to go 3-1. That record in a 30 person field (what we normally have) won't land me top 8. At best 9th to 11th based on past weeks.
To have the best chance of top 8 I have to play WRR as it seems to be dominating our meta (6 of the top 8 decks were WRR)
And yes, you're right, there is no perfect deck. But if it's a choice between my anti WRR home brew and WRR itself, I've been playing this game long enough to know that I have a better chance winning with WRR giving I won't be playing 4 matches against WRR.
Simple statistics.
So I have 2 choices.
1. Net deck, give myself the best chance of winning and hope when I do that I actually care.
2. Make my home brew and hope I'm competitive. At least if I win I'll feel good.
I don't expect others to feel like I do. I get that to many winning is all that matters. I don't understand the mentality but I accept it as being what it is.
I just don't have to like it...which has been my only point through this, what has become a very tiresome, thread.
I am in the same boat. I grew up in the same era. This is irrelevant. Times have changed. There isn't a time machine, nor can we do anything about the past except embrace nostalgia.
With a 30-person field I sure hope you'd be playing more than 4 rounds...
With 6 of the top 8 decks being WRR, chances are if you're in the winning bracket you'd have played most of them (and beat them with your anti-WRR list, making you a member of the top 8).
Yes, let's discuss these "simple statistics" a bit more. You're saying: "I won't be playing 4 matches against WRR, so I'd rather run a deck that loses to WRR the 3 times I play it and win the other random matchup than build a deck that beats WRR and consistently go 3-1 every tournament."
This makes zero sense. You can homebrew and go 1-3, or homebrew and go 3-1, hosing WRR and laughing at all the netdeckers along the way. Your logic is skewed.
Even if you were to run WRR, the odds of playing against another WRR deck don't change, and you'd have less of a chance beating the mirror than you would beating WRR with an anti-WRR list.
1. Net deck
2. Build a deck to beat net decks.
Can't argue with your logic. Unfortunately, our establishment does 4 rounds to get to the top 8. That is out of my control. And no, there is nowhere else to play in my area. So 3-1 won't get me to top 8. That is simple math.
And if I get really screwed like last week and only play against 2 WRR, I go 2-2. Yeah, it's still better than the 1-3 I went home with, but not good enough.
Simple observation of my meta. If the majority of the winning decks are WRR, then my best chance is still to play that deck because they're beating all the other home brews that haven't caught on yet. And yes, I get that if I do beat some of them maybe the top 8 will shift slightly and I might sneak in. It is certainly possible.
But my best chance statistically, since nobody at our FNM has proven to beat WRR consistently outside of a couple of people, is to play WRR.
Which brings me back to my personal decision not to net deck. It won't give me the satisfaction I'm looking for.
For what it's worth, after I get the rest of the cards that I need for my anti WRR deck, I'm going to play it and see how I do. If I top 8 I'll be the first one to come back to this thread and personally tell you that you were right and I was dead wrong.
I'm just not going to hold my breath on this one.
If WRR is that dominant, start maindecking answers for it and dedicate some open sideboard slots to some of the other homebrews in your area that have given you trouble. Part of netdecking is taking the same net deck and maindecking answers that will increase your chances of beating the mirror.
Best of luck.
It's sort of like being new to poker but having a World Series of Poker champion standing behind you and telling you when to keep, fold, go all in, etc.
The Great Creature Token Project
It would be analogous to your example if, say, you had a Magic pro standing over your shoulder telling you how and when to play your cards.
The fact is, almost everyone (in some form or another) has access to net deck lists, so there is a level playing field. And please don't respond with the "Yeah, but you need $xxxxxxxxx to be competetive!" That argument is trite and baseless. There are competetive decks that don't cost an arm and a leg. Plus, what is/isn't expensive is all relative anyway.
Im speaking in hypotheticals. If someone doesnt know how to shuffle, then it is on them. There are multiple ways that someone can learn and if they choose not to it is there fault. Thats what I was getting at. I've seen people damaging cards by shuffling and say "well, there not my cards...so I don't care"
actually on that note: my 2 main points to add to the topic.
1. Shuffle like they were your cards
2. Be polite
I netdeck.....so im a cheater huh?
Lets take a step back. I play edh. I netdeck (mind you, i do ask the person first), then I'll adapt the deck to fit my meta. I use netdecking as a basis for my ideas really. And if someone asks, i give credit to whoever the creator is. Netdecking, as I see it, is like writing a paper. If you copy+paste, then yes, you lose respect. But if you use it as a basis and add your thoughts to it, then i see no issue with it. I also report back to whoever created the deck to let them know what works and what falls short.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyThe fact that someone would even claim this makes me feel sad for them. If it was cheating it would be against the rules, which it's not; it's actually encouraged or magic the gathering.com wouldn't be putting up deck lists in their articles.
We all don't have time to sit down and brew and test and round the edges off of decklists until they're etched in stone and ready to be thrown into a tested environment. Some people take for granted how much time that actually takes to accomplish. Not to mention having a capable play test group, which is even harder than finding the time to do this than trying to fit the time in when you have to work and go to school 60+ hrs a week combined.
If you wanna' be that dude sitting across from WRR with your r/b/u burn/draw/hand control disrupt tempo i dont even know wtf it's supposed to be and get stomped then that is your choice. If you don't like it then stick to draft and limited like the rest of the casual players, or play EDH with a group of other people who don't like net decking because EDH is pretty much all net decking now (at least at my LGS).
And I'm sorry LandBoy Steve that you played in a time where people didn't have access to the internet. I'm sorry you can't step out of the tar pit with your prehistoric notions and nostalgia about what this game used to be before that damn internetz killt itz. If I had a choice of playing magic blind in an era where I could go -
T1: Dark Ritual, Hynotic Specter, lol, go
or
T1: Black Lotus; Necropotence, lol go
and to be playing in an era where I can look up on the internet other people's thoughts and ways to deal with something like that I would gladly choose the latter and dare say that anyone with a brain would also.
Really, dude? Just, really? You don't know anything about me personally and from that post it actually looks like you're suggesting that I'm, as you so tastelessly put it `a bible thumper` because I don't like to be around someone who can't stop swearing because it's been etched into their vocabulary and they don't realize that it's tasteless, unprofessional and just down right ignorant to constantly be throwing swear words around like they're vowels in words. I, in fact, am not a bible thumper and I know plenty of people who don't like that way people talk. It's like being around someone you can't understand because they're speaking so heavily in ebonics or are new to this country. It's acceptable, yeah, but you don't have to like it and you don't have to associate yourself with that person. Ask anyone who runs a business or has a college degree in any kind of medicine or law. Swearing looks bad.
And yeah, I understand you were in the Navy, and if you were around me swearing non stop I wouldn't think twice about it because of what you've done for this country and the respect that comes with your choice in profession, but I still wouldn't like it.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
EDIT: I'm going to go to the angry dome for a few minutes, if anybody needs me.
@Macius: And that's why I look up to you.
> I reserve the right to be angry if I draw 8 lands in a row and lose because of it.
2. Please talk to me while we're playing. Don't just stare at me with your strongest poker face and take the game more serious than you take your life. We're here to have fun and make friends beyond competing.
> Don't make me shake your hand. It's not a business deal. Otherwise, sure, though I don't really find that most mtg players have much to say.
3. Wash your body, hair, clothes and brush your teeth. Please. For the love of God please.
> The one guy out of a thousand who has bad hygiene won't read this, or if he does, won't care.
4. Keep your open cans of soda or whatever away from the expensive pieces of card board. Stuff inevitably will get knocked over and you will inevitably piss someone off when you dump your kool-aid on their Tamogoyf.
> Sure, I guess.
5. Be easy when shuffling my deck.
> Sure.
6. Please return my dice if you ask to borrow it.
> Sure.
Might add: Don't badmouth people within earshot after beating/losing to them.
Otherwise, it's just gripes. Like don't cheat, which covers most forms of bad play the DCI has covered.
We've all lost to drawing 8 lands in a row, though. Just because you did doesn't mean I have to hear you cry.
And a lot more than 1 out of a thousand people don't practice proper hygiene when going into public >___>
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
1. Please say when your turn ends. I hate having to ask everytime you stop playing. How hard is it just to say "go" or "your turn"?
2. Give the player enough time to do their shenanigans before combat damage is dealt. Once blockers are declared doesn't mean that we should skip right to combat. I still need to play Thistledown Liege and Giant Growth on my unblocked creature.
3. Just don't be rude. Period.
Edit: Regarding above posts, does complaining count as being rude? I mean I'm not trying to advocate complaining, but is saying "Man, if only I didn't get mana screwed!" considered rude?
Edit again: Where do you draw the line on net-decking? Many Standard decks look almost identical. Certain strategies and archetypes tend to float around and see more popularity than others.
Personally, I think deck-building is one of the most fun aspects, but there are some times when I do look at internet decks for inspiration. However, I tend to change them to fit my budget and whatnot. My B/W Allies was somewhat inspired by a BoaB article, but I feel like it's different enough to warrant some originality. Besides, it's not like there's a whole lot of Allies to work with.
RGGruul Aggro
WSoul Sisters
WBTokens
BUGRRestore Balance
BMono-Black Infect
EDH:
RGWMayael, the Anima
GWURoon of the Hidden Realm
BDrana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Not fully correct. In the rule book it just "countered".
Actually my statement is correct, countered spells don't resolve. So the only time a spell resolves even though it partial fizzles is when it still has at least one legal target. But i can see how this is misleading to people(should have put may or may not resolve), i also think your description of the rule is misleading so ill just copy paste the rule w/ examples.
608.2b
Example: Sorin's Thirst is a black instant that reads, "Sorin's Thirst deals 2 damage to target creature and you gain 2 life." If the creature isn't a legal target during the resolution of Sorin's Thirst (say, if the creature has gained protection from black or left the battlefield), then Sorin's Thirst is countered. Its controller doesn't gain any life.
Example: Plague Spores reads, "Destroy target nonblack creature and target land. They can't be regenerated." Suppose the same animated land is chosen both as the nonblack creature and as the land, and the color of the creature land is changed to black before Plague Spores resolves. Plagues Spores isn't countered because the black creature land is still a legal target for the "target land" part of the spell. The "destroy target nonblack creature" part of the spell won't affect that permanent, but the "destroy target land" part of the spell will still destroy it. It can't be regenerated.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Actually, it does.
Clarification: some grownups curse. But that doesn't negate what it makes them look like when they do so.
That doesn't make it right, normal, or respectable. And I used to be in the Marines.
Lots of vulgar words are in the English language. That doesn't make them any less vulgar.
If you're talking about my post, then no, it wasn't.
But you essentially DO have a Magic pro standing over your shoulder and telling you what cards to use in your deck.
It's a legal and accepted form of cheating, but it's nevertheless a form of cheating. Sort of like how going 1 mile per hour over the speed limit is breaking the law, but the cops probably won't pull you over for it.
You're most definitely not being trolled. I'm 100% serious.
In Magic you haven't designed your cards yourself. You've decided which ones to put into your deck. So my example still stands.
Whenever you rely on someone else to do your winning for you in a single-person sport, it's a form of cheating.
It's not against the rules because there's no way anyone can enforce it. As for Wizards' role, their attitude is probably "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
That's sort of like me saying, "I don't have time to practice driving and putting, but I should be a master golfer anyway."
Not everyone has the talent to play for a major league football team, either. If you don't have such talent, then practicing until you, or else playing in a minor league or a city league is part of the sport.
You're right. I didn't say I can do anything about it. Just because everyone's doing it doesn't mean it isn't cheating, just like saying that everybody breaks the speed limit doesn't meant that it isn't speeding.
The Great Creature Token Project
Actually, no it doesn't.
Also, please do not stereotype people like that. It makes you look like a horrible person.