I figured with Infect decks causing problems in Standard and other formats we need new cards that can get rid of Poison counters, Leeches from Homelands seems to remedy the problem that the Infect mechanic is causing.
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"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
My question is why? Does he not think that Infect is a semi-broken mechanic?
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
But you still haven't answered my question as to why MaRo doesn't want Poison removal in the Scars of Mirrodin block. Is he just saying that to be a douschebag which is the kind of thing EDH is against?
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
The reason Mark Rosewater gave (whether or not you agree with it is, naturally, up to you) is that the number of poison counters you have shouldn't be just a second life total. For this reason, he doesn't want it to be a number that can go up and down over the course of a game, but rather prefers that it only move in one direction.
As for infect being broken/semi-broken/brokenesque/whatever, I don't think that most players see it that way and highly doubt that things are much different inside Wizards. Infect is a pain to play against if you aren't used to it, but once you've figured out most of its tricks and its weaknesses it isn't too different from most aggressive decks.
EDIT:
Here's the exact quote, taken from this article. (MaRo is speaking about the history of poison counters and his thoughts when Leeches was first printed.)
This card [Leeches] was a slap in the face of every poison lover. One of the things I had always loved about poison was that it differed fundamentally from life in one important way—you couldn't get rid of it. Once you were poisoned, that poison would always be there. In addition, thanks to the low power level of poison, it was hard enough to win with poison. Did the game really need an answer to a threat this anemic?
My hatred of Leeches did one important thing. It cemented in me the importance of poison not just being another life total. (This theme will become very important in Scars of Mirrodin's design.) As such, you will not see any card in the entire Scars of Mirrodin block that removes poison. It cannot be done. There are answers. There are ways to deal with poison but healing yourself of it is not one of them. If you want to remove poison counters you will only have one way—Leeches.
Far be it from us to call a Dev's baby mechanic broken. Seriously, when SOM first came out it was infect city. It was quite annoying and repetitive. Even more so than when tribal Vamps came into being. Eventually WoTC will have to make some sort of LeechesV2. Until then, we have to let MaRo have his hayday. Don't get me wrong on this though, I think he's just forcing a stupid archetype on the public because he can get away with it now. Later on when infect goes away I will remember it as well as the crap I took last week.
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"Failing to Find" Since March 2010.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Standard:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
I don't mind MaRo having his heyday, it's just that Infect is one of the most fun but yet annoying game mechanics to go up against. I guess you know what they say, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!"
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Whatever Maro may think of infect/poison counters the best argument against reprinted Leeches is that it simply doesn't fit the flavor of Mirrodin. However, I don't see why having something to remove poison counters would be such a bad thing, after all, milling can always be counteracted by a card like Elixir of Immortality, but I can see his argument and the idea that poison is relatively immovable makes it more of a threat. Poison counters are nasty, certainly, but there are ways around them...simply blocking the attacking creatures, destroying the creatures and/or proliferate engines, winning before you are poisoned to death, or something like Platinum Angel.
I think infect is going to be good enough that it's competitive, just like a solid mid-range milling deck, but I don't think it's an unstoppable force. I'm sure that we'll see more (and more good) infect cards, but I think the set design is balanced enough these days that they won't make for anything so ridiculous that it would make infect the only viable deck to play.
If any card should be reprinted it should be Coat Of Arms. That card needs to be standard as it's one of my fav's.
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:symb::symg: Black Forest Ham Deck
:symr::symg: Green Burn Deck
:symb::symr: Burned Black Deck
:symu::symb: Black Oyster Cult Beatdown Deck
:symr::symu: Mastermind of The Flame Burn/Control Deck
:symb::symg: Herpes Infect Deck
:symg::symu: Nuke The Whales Control Deck
I really don't think anyone at Wizards considers infect broken because there is no results to back that in any format at all. The only format that I would think it can even do broken things is EDH, and you can use homelands leeches for that anyways.
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Standard: Zombies, AntiTusk Vampires, BUG Graveyard, Bant Hexproof, UR Storm Delver Modern: Storm, Jund, Ghast Blaster, Elf Warriors Legacy: RUG Cascade, Imperial Painter, Affinity, Dredge, Elves, Merfolk, Pox, Dragon Stompie, Goblins, ANT, Belcher Classic: Delver, Dredge, Jacerater Draft: I will draft basically any format online (other than Masques) Pauper: MTGO's #1 most handsome Pauper Storm player
I figured with Infect decks causing problems in Standard and other formats...
Citation needed. Where are infect decks causing problems? Infect is far from overpowered in standard right now. It's barely even playable.
If it's a problem in EDH, then that's a problem for the EDH designers to figure out. Magic wasn't designed to be played that way, and some things that work fine in real Magic are obviously going to behave differently in casual, player-invented formats. That's not a problem to be solved by printing cards.
Infect is one of 'those' decks. It isn't really very strong in actual competitive play, but it can steamroll right past players who don't have 'optimized' decks to start with, or who don't know how to beat it. Combine that with the fact that many of the builds are focused on 'explosive' wins rather than consistent ones, and it's easy to see why some people think it's broken. I've seen turn 2 Plague Stinger, followed by turn 3 Groundswell/Groundswell/Bite, game. I've also seen turn 2 Plague Stinger followed by turn 3 Groundswell/Groundswell, meeting my good friend mr. Disfigure. Once you know how to play against it, it's really not that bad, but it can scare a lot of players because it's "twice as fast" as regular killing, and you can't undo the damage.
Hell, I can see it in my group. A few of them run Poison, either due to enjoying the deck or the "if you can't beat them" mentality. A bunch more think lifegain belongs tossed into every deck; Ajani's Mantras, Lone Missionaries, Elixirs of Immortality, etc. They think it's "unfair" that poison gets around that. On the plus side, it's slowly but surely curing them of their affair with lifegain.
Infect isn't making huge waves anywhere except maybe some Kitchen Table Commander, and even then I doubt it (and you can run leeches there if you want).
Infect isn't a good enough strategy to require that kind of hate, especially with a card that completely blanks the strategy.
That new Colossus is ridiculous, but other than that Infect is a mechanic for CAAAAAASUALS and should not be taken seriously outside the kitchen table environment.
This message has been brought to you by some arrogant person! Enjoy your meal.
Edit: I actually would prefer it not to be reprinted, because doing so would acknowledge infect as a valid mechanic, which it isn't.
The genie is out of the bottle. Printing Leeches (or Leeches 2.0) in this set would be heavily counter productive in that it would utterly kill an entire mechanic.
Imagine if during Rise of the Eldrazi there'd been a card printed that, for a couple of mana, removed all counters from all permanents. Level up would essentially become a joke within the set.
Imagine if during Rise of the Eldrazi there'd been a card printed that, for a couple of mana, removed all counters from all permanents. Level up would essentially become a joke within the set.
I believe Leeches is on the Reserved List, which is why it nor a functional reprint will be reprinted.
Why a card that removes poison counters likely won't be printed is because they want to separate it from life totals as much as possible, since there's only currently one attribute (proliferate) that separates infect creatures from basically being creatures with double strike that only deal combat damage in the normal combat step.
Cause, y'know, Poison is running around the metagame crushing the likes of JTMS, Primeval Titans, and Goblin Guides all over, right? Oh wait...
This is just another "I lost to my friend's deck. I should never lose to my friend's deck cause my deck beats everything. Therefore my friend's deck should be banned even though my deck is actually terrible and I don't want to admit it" thread. Next time you want to post, please think before posting.
IN B4 LOCK.
Cool it. I suggest you take your own advice next time.
-Memnarch
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Reckless Waif; It's the red Delver of Secrets.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
So MaRo has already stated that there will be no poison removal in this block.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
As for infect being broken/semi-broken/brokenesque/whatever, I don't think that most players see it that way and highly doubt that things are much different inside Wizards. Infect is a pain to play against if you aren't used to it, but once you've figured out most of its tricks and its weaknesses it isn't too different from most aggressive decks.
EDIT:
Here's the exact quote, taken from this article. (MaRo is speaking about the history of poison counters and his thoughts when Leeches was first printed.)
If you're concerned about Commander, Leeches is legal there. Problem solved?
From the mind of Raymond Swanland: Valla, a plane made entirely out of brownish spikes.
In a format with a starting pool of 40 life taking ~10 damage to prevent a poisonous death isn't that bad. Not that Leeches is a good card, mind you.
From the mind of Raymond Swanland: Valla, a plane made entirely out of brownish spikes.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I think infect is going to be good enough that it's competitive, just like a solid mid-range milling deck, but I don't think it's an unstoppable force. I'm sure that we'll see more (and more good) infect cards, but I think the set design is balanced enough these days that they won't make for anything so ridiculous that it would make infect the only viable deck to play.
:symr::symg: Green Burn Deck
:symb::symr: Burned Black Deck
:symu::symb: Black Oyster Cult Beatdown Deck
:symr::symu: Mastermind of The Flame Burn/Control Deck
:symb::symg: Herpes Infect Deck
:symg::symu: Nuke The Whales Control Deck
I'd That
Modern: Storm, Jund, Ghast Blaster, Elf Warriors
Legacy: RUG Cascade, Imperial Painter, Affinity, Dredge, Elves, Merfolk, Pox, Dragon Stompie, Goblins, ANT, Belcher
Classic: Delver, Dredge, Jacerater
Draft: I will draft basically any format online (other than Masques)
Pauper: MTGO's #1 most handsome Pauper Storm player
Citation needed. Where are infect decks causing problems? Infect is far from overpowered in standard right now. It's barely even playable.
If it's a problem in EDH, then that's a problem for the EDH designers to figure out. Magic wasn't designed to be played that way, and some things that work fine in real Magic are obviously going to behave differently in casual, player-invented formats. That's not a problem to be solved by printing cards.
Hell, I can see it in my group. A few of them run Poison, either due to enjoying the deck or the "if you can't beat them" mentality. A bunch more think lifegain belongs tossed into every deck; Ajani's Mantras, Lone Missionaries, Elixirs of Immortality, etc. They think it's "unfair" that poison gets around that. On the plus side, it's slowly but surely curing them of their affair with lifegain.
The latest Comprehensive Rules are also good, and can be found here.
Infect isn't a good enough strategy to require that kind of hate, especially with a card that completely blanks the strategy.
What good would disfigure do against a 13/13?
I've seen Plauge Stinger/Groundswell/Groundswell/Giant Growth run into Fog quite a bit
This message has been brought to you by some arrogant person! Enjoy your meal.
Edit: I actually would prefer it not to be reprinted, because doing so would acknowledge infect as a valid mechanic, which it isn't.
Imagine if during Rise of the Eldrazi there'd been a card printed that, for a couple of mana, removed all counters from all permanents. Level up would essentially become a joke within the set.
WCommander EeshaBDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefBGGlissa, the TraitorBWVish Kal, Blood ArbiterRUNin, the Pain Artist
UGEdric, Spymaster of TrestWRBasandra, Battle SeraphBGWDoran, the Siege TowerBGWGhave, Guru of Spores
RGWUril, the MiststalkerGUBThe MimeoplasmUWGRafiq of the ManyWUBRGSliver Overlord
*cough* not during Rise, but Vampire Hexmage says hello.
There are answers to infect, but it's clear design doesn't want the answer to infect to be a "removes poison counter(s)" card.
Why a card that removes poison counters likely won't be printed is because they want to separate it from life totals as much as possible, since there's only currently one attribute (proliferate) that separates infect creatures from basically being creatures with double strike that only deal combat damage in the normal combat step.
This is just another "I lost to my friend's deck. I should never lose to my friend's deck cause my deck beats everything. Therefore my friend's deck should be banned even though my deck is actually terrible and I don't want to admit it" thread. Next time you want to post, please think before posting.
IN B4 LOCK.
Cool it. I suggest you take your own advice next time.
-Memnarch
Play (verb): Cast/Play
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