with a lot of the recent talk from wizards that two aspects of magic were being lessened for being "unfun" (hard counters and land destruction) it blows my mind that other aspects that i would more or less consider unfun have been increased.
random discard seems to be back in full swing. this one im fine with, but changing their stance after so long is weird.
uncounterable stuff like cards that say cant be countered or abilities like unearth. its kind of lame the only way around it is exiling, which would generally require graveyard hate, considering stifle or a functional reprint of doesnt exist in standard. but still, whatever.
what the hell were they thinking with annihilator? unless you have an answer before the first attack you're likely not going to have one. you sit there, slowly losing your lands and drawing cards that cost 2+ mana, totally unplayable. not to mention getting hit for 7+.
granted its unlikely that these guys will see play outside of limited or some janky combo deck. but with limited seemingly being wizard's biggest focus these days, who thought annihilator was fun?
when wizards analyzes all the different psychological aspects of the game, they must have missed forced sacrifice. they found players were less upset with removal vs counters. they know that milling can have a noticeable psychological effect.
did they think players would happily sacrifice their permanents en masse? all your opponent has to do is turn the card sideways, damage doesnt even have to get through.
"whenever this creature attacks do x" abilities are getting a little ridiculous. what ever happened to when it attacks and is unblocked?
imagine if all you had to do with something like guiltfeeder was attack?
Personally I have no problems with annihilator. If you play something for that much mana and it sticks around, I have no problem with it being highly destructive. And, it is exceptionally flavorful too - the Eldrazi come on the board, and the world suffers.
I have no problem with annihilator either. If an Eldrazi sticks, then its my fault, and If saccing 2 lands is what must be done, then I'll do it. I have never lost to one either, cause I always kill it on the block. (talking purely limited here)
In fact with the Rise of the Eldrazi, hard counters should have been brought back. Harder than deprive, which is decent in its own right.
LD and counters are different from discard because those two dont let you do anything. With discard, you will still be able to play cards and lands, just with a more limited selection. I am a fan of LD, but the feeling of having cards in your hand and not enough mana to cast them is really lame.
Personally I have no problems with annihilator. If you play something for that much mana and it sticks around, I have no problem with it being highly destructive. And, it is exceptionally flavorful too - the Eldrazi come on the board, and the world suffers.
Agreed. Annihilator decks are mostly going to be ramping up to cast one spell, and winning with it. I don't see how it's all that different from control decks drawing cards until they can cast cruel ultimatum.
Annihilator generally puts you out of the game, but you have to lose at some point. If I get hit by Anh 3 and drop to no board, a few lands, and don't have removal left in my limited deck? Oh well, good game.
Conceding to something on turn ten is a part of magic we can deal with because we got to play our deck. I love playing against ramp, because I get to cast stuff and see my deck work.
The reason people don't like LD and counters is because when they cost two mana, you feel like you don't get to do anything. Elf + stone rain can basically bring a deck to a halt. Dedicated LD can prevent a player from ever resolving anything.
If they printed something like...
Unbalanced Guy4
Creature
~ is indestructible.
Annihilator 1
0/1
Then I'd pretty much hate that. I dunno. At least I could disfigure it or path it or something.
A 15 mana monster that wins you the game is not sinkhole. It's probably not even a good use of fifteen mana. Definitely a fair ability as long as they don't bring it back for cheap cards.
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
I agree that LD is not fun at all, but with good counterspells in the format, it makes playing aggro much more fun, as you have to think about each play. Granted, aggro decks now are not completely autopilot (besides probably Koros), but it takes a lot more skill (and therefore is more fun, in my opinion) to play aggro when you're against a permission based control deck. I actually didn't mind playing aggro against Fae or 5cc last season, it was pretty fun (although, I did my share of piloting Fae and 5cc as well).
As for Annihilator, the Eldrazi are not supposed to be fun for both players, as far as I can tell. They tried really hard to make 10-15cc cards playable, and as such, they are meant to be pretty soul-crushing when they hit the table. I don't agree with having them at common and uncommon for Limited purposes, but the mechanic is 100% fine at rare.
Annihilator looks really nasty, but its true impact is fairly limited - even in limited. And I was the dick casting Kozilek and Pathrazer of Ulamog 5 out of 9 games and even then I only truly won on the backs of my Cthonic horrors about two of those five games. I suppose I won a third one due to the potential of them (they kept popping up, but getting killed/held back, etc), but in that one game the guy actually decked himself digging for answers to keep them away. Never laid a hand on him actually, which was hilarious (and long...)
In all those cases they bit the bullet and gang-banged the Eldrazi and lost some land (of which they usually had plenty), but an Eldrazi thumping is only inevitable when you have two bigguns going at it at the same time (as in my two wins on their backs). If you completely lack answers in either creatures that can gang-kill them, or lack the spells to douse them, then yeah you will lose, but that applies to almost any big threat at that point. The one thing they do is produce serious CDA for your opponent in the best cases, but if you were able to land your CMC 9+ Cthulu-fan critter and can swing away with it, more power.
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Decks
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite) Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks) Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks) Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
The only cards I've seen with Annihilator are plain awful, even for casual terms. Considering there is no card with Annihilator for less than 8 mana, it's not something I would be concerned about. By the time one of the creatures hit the battlefield, you should have loads of permanents to choose to sac from. Also, your deck should really be running some sort of spot removal.
(PS: If you're playing a format where you could somehow cast a card with Annihilator turn 1 or 2, there are better things to do with your mana.)
I think the answer to Eldrazi is a good aggro deck that goes online fast. Choose cards that make things unblockable and flyers and you will rarely be seeing any Eldrazi. People seem to think ramp is the best strategy, but I saw aggro using unblockable things and flying smashing people.
I lost only 3 games in my pre-release going 3 match wins-1 match loss-0.
First time I was smacked by and Eldrazi but it was because I wasn't drawing any lands and thus he got to stall long enough, I was losing anyways.
The other 2 times I lost because of a deathless angel stopping my flying onslaught, by the time the Eldrazi came on board I was pretty much too behind already for it to matter.
The mvp card for me: Warp in Flames. It makes guys unable to block and kills eldrazi spawn tokens.
I don't think wizards made a mistake with this set.
in limited when youve only got maybe a handful of removal it can be difficult to deal with an eldrazi if you werent already holding some cheap removal (the only of which comes to mind is smite.)
something like corpsehatch is fine. but at 5 mana, after getting annihiliated, topdecking it just makes it even worse.
most of the damage from annihilator is done by the two common guys.
it definitely inspires a totally new feeling of hopelessness that i obviously dont enjoy and really hope it doesnt see play outside of limited.
(PS: If you're playing a format where you could somehow cast a card with Annihilator turn 1 or 2, there are better things to do with your mana.)
annihilator is the perfect compliment to hypergenesis. youve just annihilated any advantage it gave your opponent. emrakul makes something like progenitis look kind of stupid by comparison.
Annihilator is found exclusively on 8+ mana cards. Unless you do nothing but ramp or somehow manage to cheat one into play, they're going to come down at the very end. Honestly, Eldrazi would be more devastating with trample unless they have some huge annihilator number like Emrakul. So, far, I've seen exactly one game where annihilator even mattered. The huge 7/7+ creature would have ended a lot of the other games that they actually finished out, anyway. While they're pretty decent for their costs, Eldrazi are nothing more than uber timmy fat with a flavorful ability in most cases.
annihilator is actually pretty fun, and this is for one reason, its on big fat splashy death creatures that are extremely enjoyable to fight against and to play on your own. If it was on cheaper weaker creatures, it wouldn't be fun
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Remember Figure of Destiny? That card was the inspiration for the level-up mechanic. -Wizards
Accept the truth.
I have yet to suffer any real or irreparable loss from an Eldrazi with annihilator in limited. Spawn tokens are perfect cannon fodder, and when those are in short supply, I was never at a complete loss for removal (in that I try to conserve it when I expect large creatures to be hitting the field out of nowhere). If you draft and play intelligently, the Eldrazi are no more a threat than any other super-massive creature.
Honestly, annihilator isn't as threatening as you make it out to be.
Your mind may need a better circuit breaker if it is that easily blown. Every format has a timely answer to the Eldrazi once they're in play, and ways to prevent it from getting there to begin with.
The other 2 times I lost because of a deathless angel
Yeah I figured I wasn't the only one. I had a really good pool including a black splash for removal, some solid green guys including the "7777" wurm, Gideon Jura, and Student of Warfare. My only loss was to that stupid angel. I found Gideon for the win, but my opponent found an umbra to give the angel vigilance. After that an indestructible Tuskcaller made about 15 elephants and I lost my streak hehe.
The only cards I've seen with Annihilator are plain awful, even for casual terms. Considering there is no card with Annihilator for less than 8 mana, it's not something I would be concerned about. By the time one of the creatures hit the battlefield, you should have loads of permanents to choose to sac from. Also, your deck should really be running some sort of spot removal.
(PS: If you're playing a format where you could somehow cast a card with Annihilator turn 1 or 2, there are better things to do with your mana.)
Can put Emrakul on the table T2 in standard assuming the perfect hand. No, I will not go into detail, however, I'll just say you don't get the extra turn out of it. Well, I guess theoretically, in standard, you could have all 3 of the titans and 1 other eldrazi in play T2. Honestly, I can't think of a much better T2 than Emrakul, Kozilek, Ulamog, and Artisan of Kozilek T2. Plus another random 0-2 CC creature that is neglibgible.
Coming in the red T3 with Annihilator 16 and 47+ damage seems ok in standard. But like I said, it requires the perfect hand and the perfect plays by both people.
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Odds of pulling a JtMS from a WWK pack: 1:80
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
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I was able to remove the eldrazi but i lost twice to transcendant master and other leveling creatures. eldrazi and anhilator is not the worst thing they have done.
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Sweenerize me CaP'N
Standard RWBRWB StuffRWB WWhite WeenieW
EDH GWBDoran, The Siege TowerGWB
Was Gatekeeper of Malakir awful? He doesn't even need to turn sideways to blow your dude up. And he only costs 3 mana.
If you're letting a CMC 8 creature swing at you, and you don't have a comparable creature or spell on your side of the table, you should expect to lose.
I was able to remove the eldrazi but i lost twice to transcendant master and other leveling creatures. eldrazi and anhilator is not the worst thing they have done.
Yeah, the better Levelers were the real bane of the Pre-re. Someone managed to get Mr. T (my nicky for Transcendent Master) on line, and I certainly pitied the fool across from him when that 9/9 indestructible doom-stick was going up his ass. It was harsh, and reliable. The others like Kargan Dragonlord (who beat my face in when pumped before I could get removal online) and Tuskcaller were much bigger and more consistent threats than even my Eldrazi. Next time I draft I will be looking for more level-beasts, but I had to play as the Eldrazi just once.
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Decks
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite) Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks) Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks) Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
Someone managed to get Mr. T (my nicky for Transcendent Master) on line, and I certainly pitied the fool across from him when that 9/9 indestructible doom-stick was going up his ass.
LOLOL. I've never had a sig before, but I might have to sig that.
But I agree. Leveled up creatures were a bigger pain than the Eldrazi. Although, every time someone started counting mana at the pre-release, I stopped to look at the other guy's face, and I saw fear.
with a lot of the recent talk from wizards that two aspects of magic were being lessened for being "unfun" (hard counters and land destruction) it blows my mind that other aspects that i would more or less consider unfun have been increased.
Wizard didn't so much as say that it was because they're not "fun" but because they're not interactive.
The plus side to this is with no counterspell and limited LD (there are still viable land destruction decks out there, but we are just leaving a format based on 3 colours that would have been ruled by cheap LD) more cards that previously wouldn't have been useable can be given some consideration.
You can plan for opposing annihilator, even in limited. At the prerelease, I beat a fellow who resolved an Ulamog. I used Repel the Darkness before his declare attackers step, kept his Ulamog tapped down, and was able to swing in for the kill before his Ulamog really came online.
Getting hit with Annihilator sucks. I'm not disputing that. However, it also lights a fire under your rear and lets you know "You better have an answer for this". Some answers are easy, and others can be painful (e.g. triple blocking it to kill it).
In all honesty, I'd much rather face an eldrazi combo deck than a storm combo deck.
I think counterspells are actually quite interactive. It makes the aggro player play around them, and makes the control player have to make decisions on when to use them.
If you want a game that's not interactive, try the old TEPS mirror. That was... less than fun.
As for Annihilator, by the time the opponent has a creature with Annihilator swinging the game's practically over.
In Limited, yes. In Constructed, even Standard, a turn 4 Polymorph into Emrakul is pretty disgusting. That seems a little unfun... at least a Polymorph'd Progenitus could be blocked to buy time. Annihilator is just unfun when it's being Polymorph'd (or worse, Oath'd in Vintage) into play.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
random discard seems to be back in full swing. this one im fine with, but changing their stance after so long is weird.
uncounterable stuff like cards that say cant be countered or abilities like unearth. its kind of lame the only way around it is exiling, which would generally require graveyard hate, considering stifle or a functional reprint of doesnt exist in standard. but still, whatever.
what the hell were they thinking with annihilator? unless you have an answer before the first attack you're likely not going to have one. you sit there, slowly losing your lands and drawing cards that cost 2+ mana, totally unplayable. not to mention getting hit for 7+.
granted its unlikely that these guys will see play outside of limited or some janky combo deck. but with limited seemingly being wizard's biggest focus these days, who thought annihilator was fun?
when wizards analyzes all the different psychological aspects of the game, they must have missed forced sacrifice. they found players were less upset with removal vs counters. they know that milling can have a noticeable psychological effect.
did they think players would happily sacrifice their permanents en masse? all your opponent has to do is turn the card sideways, damage doesnt even have to get through.
"whenever this creature attacks do x" abilities are getting a little ridiculous. what ever happened to when it attacks and is unblocked?
imagine if all you had to do with something like guiltfeeder was attack?
In fact with the Rise of the Eldrazi, hard counters should have been brought back. Harder than deprive, which is decent in its own right.
My Trading Post
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=226506
Agreed. Annihilator decks are mostly going to be ramping up to cast one spell, and winning with it. I don't see how it's all that different from control decks drawing cards until they can cast cruel ultimatum.
Annihilator generally puts you out of the game, but you have to lose at some point. If I get hit by Anh 3 and drop to no board, a few lands, and don't have removal left in my limited deck? Oh well, good game.
Conceding to something on turn ten is a part of magic we can deal with because we got to play our deck. I love playing against ramp, because I get to cast stuff and see my deck work.
The reason people don't like LD and counters is because when they cost two mana, you feel like you don't get to do anything. Elf + stone rain can basically bring a deck to a halt. Dedicated LD can prevent a player from ever resolving anything.
If they printed something like...
Unbalanced Guy 4
Creature
~ is indestructible.
Annihilator 1
0/1
Then I'd pretty much hate that. I dunno. At least I could disfigure it or path it or something.
A 15 mana monster that wins you the game is not sinkhole. It's probably not even a good use of fifteen mana. Definitely a fair ability as long as they don't bring it back for cheap cards.
As for Annihilator, the Eldrazi are not supposed to be fun for both players, as far as I can tell. They tried really hard to make 10-15cc cards playable, and as such, they are meant to be pretty soul-crushing when they hit the table. I don't agree with having them at common and uncommon for Limited purposes, but the mechanic is 100% fine at rare.
In all those cases they bit the bullet and gang-banged the Eldrazi and lost some land (of which they usually had plenty), but an Eldrazi thumping is only inevitable when you have two bigguns going at it at the same time (as in my two wins on their backs). If you completely lack answers in either creatures that can gang-kill them, or lack the spells to douse them, then yeah you will lose, but that applies to almost any big threat at that point. The one thing they do is produce serious CDA for your opponent in the best cases, but if you were able to land your CMC 9+ Cthulu-fan critter and can swing away with it, more power.
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite)
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks)
Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks)
Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
Standard
Waiting for Innistrad...
Extended
Hah!
Modern
Living End Cascade (RGB)
Legacy
Burn
Vintage
None
Casual
WB Aggro-Control
Green Stompy
Pink Floyd (UWr Wall Control)
Lunch Box (Fatty ramp)
D-Bag (White Control)
Level 13 Task Mage
(PS: If you're playing a format where you could somehow cast a card with Annihilator turn 1 or 2, there are better things to do with your mana.)
I lost only 3 games in my pre-release going 3 match wins-1 match loss-0.
First time I was smacked by and Eldrazi but it was because I wasn't drawing any lands and thus he got to stall long enough, I was losing anyways.
The other 2 times I lost because of a deathless angel stopping my flying onslaught, by the time the Eldrazi came on board I was pretty much too behind already for it to matter.
The mvp card for me: Warp in Flames. It makes guys unable to block and kills eldrazi spawn tokens.
I don't think wizards made a mistake with this set.
something like corpsehatch is fine. but at 5 mana, after getting annihiliated, topdecking it just makes it even worse.
most of the damage from annihilator is done by the two common guys.
it definitely inspires a totally new feeling of hopelessness that i obviously dont enjoy and really hope it doesnt see play outside of limited.
annihilator is the perfect compliment to hypergenesis. youve just annihilated any advantage it gave your opponent. emrakul makes something like progenitis look kind of stupid by comparison.
Accept the truth.
Honestly, annihilator isn't as threatening as you make it out to be.
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My research team's webpage.
The mtg-rnn repo and the mtg-encode repo.
Yeah I figured I wasn't the only one. I had a really good pool including a black splash for removal, some solid green guys including the "7777" wurm, Gideon Jura, and Student of Warfare. My only loss was to that stupid angel. I found Gideon for the win, but my opponent found an umbra to give the angel vigilance. After that an indestructible Tuskcaller made about 15 elephants and I lost my streak hehe.
Can put Emrakul on the table T2 in standard assuming the perfect hand. No, I will not go into detail, however, I'll just say you don't get the extra turn out of it. Well, I guess theoretically, in standard, you could have all 3 of the titans and 1 other eldrazi in play T2. Honestly, I can't think of a much better T2 than Emrakul, Kozilek, Ulamog, and Artisan of Kozilek T2. Plus another random 0-2 CC creature that is neglibgible.
Coming in the red T3 with Annihilator 16 and 47+ damage seems ok in standard. But like I said, it requires the perfect hand and the perfect plays by both people.
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
Standard
RWBRWB StuffRWB
WWhite WeenieW
EDH
GWBDoran, The Siege TowerGWB
If you're letting a CMC 8 creature swing at you, and you don't have a comparable creature or spell on your side of the table, you should expect to lose.
Yeah, the better Levelers were the real bane of the Pre-re. Someone managed to get Mr. T (my nicky for Transcendent Master) on line, and I certainly pitied the fool across from him when that 9/9 indestructible doom-stick was going up his ass. It was harsh, and reliable. The others like Kargan Dragonlord (who beat my face in when pumped before I could get removal online) and Tuskcaller were much bigger and more consistent threats than even my Eldrazi. Next time I draft I will be looking for more level-beasts, but I had to play as the Eldrazi just once.
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite)
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks)
Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks)
Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
Standard
Waiting for Innistrad...
Extended
Hah!
Modern
Living End Cascade (RGB)
Legacy
Burn
Vintage
None
Casual
WB Aggro-Control
Green Stompy
Pink Floyd (UWr Wall Control)
Lunch Box (Fatty ramp)
D-Bag (White Control)
Level 13 Task Mage
LOLOL. I've never had a sig before, but I might have to sig that.
But I agree. Leveled up creatures were a bigger pain than the Eldrazi. Although, every time someone started counting mana at the pre-release, I stopped to look at the other guy's face, and I saw fear.
This set rocks.
Edit: I'm not going to sig it. But I do love it.
Wizard didn't so much as say that it was because they're not "fun" but because they're not interactive.
The plus side to this is with no counterspell and limited LD (there are still viable land destruction decks out there, but we are just leaving a format based on 3 colours that would have been ruled by cheap LD) more cards that previously wouldn't have been useable can be given some consideration.
Tribal: Zombies.
Five color staircase is in development.
As for Annihilator, by the time the opponent has a creature with Annihilator swinging the game's practically over.
Casual-
WG G/W Aggro GW
BRG Jund GRB
UW UW Merfolk WU
GGG Elves GGG
WWW Kithkin WWW
BUWR 4 Color Control RWUB
Magic is ridiculously expensive
Getting hit with Annihilator sucks. I'm not disputing that. However, it also lights a fire under your rear and lets you know "You better have an answer for this". Some answers are easy, and others can be painful (e.g. triple blocking it to kill it).
In all honesty, I'd much rather face an eldrazi combo deck than a storm combo deck.
--S
If you want a game that's not interactive, try the old TEPS mirror. That was... less than fun.
In Limited, yes. In Constructed, even Standard, a turn 4 Polymorph into Emrakul is pretty disgusting. That seems a little unfun... at least a Polymorph'd Progenitus could be blocked to buy time. Annihilator is just unfun when it's being Polymorph'd (or worse, Oath'd in Vintage) into play.
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