I posted a thread a few weeks back about the legality of proxies. I wanted to know whether or not they were legal (text only), because my LGS owner said they were illegal and that he didn't want me using them in games at his store. Just before he said this, he saw me using them (I use them for testing purposes), picked them up and chucked them in the bin, sleeves and all. I was pissed about this, but was able to get them out the bin.
Today, however, was much worse. I traded a guy for some of the cards I needed. I got the deck box with the proxied deck (1/3 proxy at this point) out of my bag and switched them in. I only bring the deck to switch cards I get in, because otherwise the store owner gets pissed. He asks for a game, so I get my other, non-proxy deck out, leaving the proxied one on the table.
Just as I finished the game, the owner walked past, picked up the proxied deck and searches through it. He throws every proxied card behind the counter, about 20, with the sleeves and the card behind it. Because they were behind the counter, I couldn't get them back. Then he throws the rest of the deck, consisting of hundreds of dollars of cards onto the ground, and walks off without saying a word.
I wanted to throw abusive words at him, snatch the cards back off him and hit him hard in the face, but I couldn't. I'm only 13.
I don't know if you'd really have much grounds to fight him. I mean, it's not like you are going to go hire a lawyer and take him to court. Proxies have no real value, you weren't phyisically harmed, etc, etc. Realistically, all you can do is quit going to his shop and urge your friends to do the same.
More details would be useful. What is your store owner like the rest of the time? Do any of the regulars at your shop have a problem with him? Are incidents like this common? Did he give you back your proxies?
Based on what you've posted, it seems that your store owner hasn't broken any laws, unless he kept your proxies. Legally, because the shop is private property and he is the owner, he can tell you that you can't use proxies in his store. If he does, just stop going there. because if he doesn't start losing business as a result of his actions, he has absolutely no incentive to change. However, if he permanently damages any of your belongings, or refuses to give you back your proxies and sleeves, you could and probably should get the authorities involved. If he takes your property, and you ask for him to return it, it doesn't matter how much value it has, he would have to do so.
Was that the kind of advice you wanted?
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I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them. Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
More details would be useful. What is your store owner like the rest of the time? Do any of the regulars at your shop have a problem with him? Are incidents like this common? Did he give you back your proxies?
Based on what you've posted, it seems that your store owner hasn't broken any laws, unless he kept your proxies. Legally, because the shop is private property and he is the owner, he can tell you that you can't use proxies in his store. If he does, just stop going there. because if he doesn't start losing business as a result of his actions, he has absolutely no incentive to change. However, if he permanently damages any of your belongings, or refuses to give you back your proxies and sleeves, you could and probably should get the authorities involved. If he takes your property, and you ask for him to return it, it doesn't matter how much value it has, he would have to do so.
Was that the kind of advice you wanted?
I'll try to answer all those questions, in order.
The store owner is normally okay. Not great, just okay.
Sometimes, but he seems to pick on the kids, maybe because he thinks they are helpless and won't do anything about it.
They're not exactly common, he might get annoyed at someone around once a month or so. (No, he's a guy)
No, he didn't.
And yes, that is the kind of advice I wanted. I just don't know how to take action.
you could also email wizards about the legality of proxies for playtesting purposes, im sure they will give you a suitable reply that you can show to the owner, since it appears that he is under the assumption wizards would care about suing him.
The store owner is normally okay. Not great, just okay.
Sometimes, but he seems to pick on the kids, maybe because he thinks they are helpless and won't do anything about it.
They're not exactly common, he might get annoyed at someone around once a month or so. (No, he's a guy)
No, he didn't.
And yes, that is the kind of advice I wanted. I just don't know how to take action.
There are two things i'd do in your situation. First, I'd discuss the situation with the rest of the people he picks on. Second, I would demand the return of my property, since he has no right to keep it, and if he refuses, ask my parents for help.
Owners of stores like the one you describe aren't generally well off financially, and his conduct suggests that he would have difficulty replacing customers. As a result, he can ill afford a reputation as a bully and a thief, so he will have to shape up.
What can be done in response to this is limited by what you are willing to do about it. If you're unwilling to stop going to that shop, then it will be hard to change anything, but if you were willing to play elsewhere, he would start to notice. Also, you should probably speak with your parents about this, because they will probably be able to help you in this matter.
Proxies are legal for use in unsanctioned play as long as your opponent agrees to it. There are circumstances in sanctioned play where they are legal, and some where it is illegal.
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them. Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
you could also email wizards about the legality of proxies for playtesting purposes, im sure they will give you a suitable reply that you can show to the owner, since it appears that he is under the assumption wizards would care about suing him.
I reckon I'll do this. Maybe, just maybe, if I can give him proof that they won't sue, he'll allow me to use them.
The proxies are your property and he cannot keep them. He can kick you from an event and even the store but he cannot keep your property. I would talk to your parents or call the police.
To echo what some other people have said - the proxies are indeed your property, and he has no business taking your property, let alone throwing them away.
He does however have the right to state that proxies are not allowed in his store - and he most certainly has the right to kick you out if you are using them there, despite what he's said.
I wouldn't go so far as calling the police - as I think that will just by and large waste everyone's time. If you are going to be going to this store regularly, next time, ask the dude ahead of time what his policy on proxies is for playtesting purposes. Make sure it's clear you do not mean for tournament play. If he tells you they aren't allowed in his store - thank him, and tell him that you will need to find another store to do business with and leave. And, this is the most important part - don't come back. Ever.
Make sure you tell all your magic friends and acquaintances about the experience, and go on with your life. Pretty simple really.
Depending on how bad this guy is in general, and how strongly you feel about it, one option would be to see if any of the various magic sites and blogs have a "Worst Store"-type section, or a place for general complaints or feedback about such things, and encourage them to write his store up. If none do, encourage them to start one, and maybe even name it after the guy or his store. I don't know for certain, but I imagine there must be Aussie-specific Magic sites, so I'd start with those. If enough people talk about it, the rest will pick up the interest. Get the others who've had run-ins with him involved, start writing emails, etc. They say there's no such thing as bad publicity, but in a luxury business in an unstable economy, I doubt he can afford the bad press, and would likely mend his ways, just to save face.
Or it might be easier to do as others have said and just stop going there.
Chances are that he believes that allowing players to play with proxies will hurt his business (i.e. people won't buy "real" cards from him if they can just use proxies).
Anyway, get your stuff back, even if it isn't really worth anything. It will help teach him that taking things from other people isn't something to do.
There are two owners, and on Thursday, when they have FNMs, the good owner is the one there. I reckon I'll stop going there on non-Thursdays. Besides, they only support Standard, and I want to invest into other formats, so I'll start going to other stores on the weekend when I have time. Also, they have no selection. Last time I was there, they had 3 packs of sleeves, and 2 deckboxes. They don't have Shards, M10 orZendikar boosters, and they only open 1 box for singles per set, and the store owner(s) help themselves to whatever cards they want from the box. Gah.
I also suggest calling the police. Regardless of what he thinks of proxies, he's stealing your property. Having the police show up to get your stuff back and that should make him rethink his actions.
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"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."
i might have a simple solution for you. write on the fronts of cards in a way thats hard for him to tell they are proxies by glancing at them....or have a peice of paper separate from the deck that says forest=jace, etc. He doesn't sound smart so you might be able to get away with it.
I appreciate your input, but I think calling the police is being a bit too hasty. I'll go there in a day or two, kindly ask for them back, and if he doesn't return them, then I'll take action.
Firstly, I'm just a little curious as to what cards were acting as card backs for the proxies? It doesn't sound like anything of value, since you haven't mentioned, but I know people who proxy slips of paper over freshly rotated staple cards while they're waiting to complete a set of the new staple.
As others have said, regardless get your cards back, as they are your property. Though I would suggest going in on Thursday, and discussing it with the "cool" owner. That's who seems like the best channel to take it up with. Get some witnesses/people who have experienced similar treatment from the other owner. Either he will change his ways or the cool owner will try to eliminate him from the equation to save face and keep customers happy.
After all is said and done, your problem should be rectified in some way, and perhaps you can convince them to expand their singles selection too.
Simply put: The proxies are your property, as are the sleeves and the land behind it. Politely ask for them back. If he doesn't give them back, it is considered Theft. While Theft-under isn't a serious crime, the fact that a store owner is committing it in his own shop is reason enough for the city to lift his license to operate that store (depending on where you are).
As other's have stated, I think you should involve your parents. First of all, while an adult store owner may not respect you because of your age, if you bring a parent in to speak to him about this issue, he's going to want to listen or risk a call to your local Better Business Bureau regarding his behaviour and possible some police involvement for stealing your cards. Regardless of whether or not the cards are proxies, they are still your property. He's certainly within is rights to ask you not to use them and to leave his store, but he can't take your belongings.
This is all well and good, but stopping people using proxies is about as likely as stopping people illegally downloading music. Personally I think WotC should allow people to make proxies for personal use. For one thing, it's not going to hurt their business, especially if people are just using it for playtesting or because it's a 13 year old who can't afford to more than a couple boosters a month or can't afford the inflated prices on many singles.
If it's illegal to print proxies, how come they haven't done anything about Magiccards.info?
I think you should involve your parents. That's the first thing I'd do if I were you. I'm your age, and if your parents are anything like mine they'll get the owner to give them back in roughly 1.4230570943570 seconds. I don't think you should involve the police if you were using printed proxies, on the off chance one of them looks proxies up and finds out they're illegalish. However, if you've got some older friends there (like I do) you could probably get them to give you the cards back.
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DCI Level 2 Judge
Modern: GRB Jund BRG RBU Grixis Delver UBR Legacy: W Death & Taxes W GRB Punishing Jund BRG GUR Canadian Threshold RUG Commander: RUG Maelstrom Wanderer GUR
There are two owners, and on Thursday, when they have FNMs, the good owner is the one there. I reckon I'll stop going there on non-Thursdays. Besides, they only support Standard, and I want to invest into other formats, so I'll start going to other stores on the weekend when I have time. Also, they have no selection. Last time I was there, they had 3 packs of sleeves, and 2 deckboxes. They don't have Shards, M10 orZendikar boosters, and they only open 1 box for singles per set, and the store owner(s) help themselves to whatever cards they want from the box. Gah.
Do they distribute FNM prizes on a night that is not Friday? This is a pretty bad offense to Wizards.
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Today, however, was much worse. I traded a guy for some of the cards I needed. I got the deck box with the proxied deck (1/3 proxy at this point) out of my bag and switched them in. I only bring the deck to switch cards I get in, because otherwise the store owner gets pissed. He asks for a game, so I get my other, non-proxy deck out, leaving the proxied one on the table.
Just as I finished the game, the owner walked past, picked up the proxied deck and searches through it. He throws every proxied card behind the counter, about 20, with the sleeves and the card behind it. Because they were behind the counter, I couldn't get them back. Then he throws the rest of the deck, consisting of hundreds of dollars of cards onto the ground, and walks off without saying a word.
I wanted to throw abusive words at him, snatch the cards back off him and hit him hard in the face, but I couldn't. I'm only 13.
What can I do about it?
Current decks:
Legacy: Zoo, Aggro Elves, The Gate, White Weenie, Red Deck Wins, and Merfolk. Currently building Solidarity.
Casual: Warp World Revolution and Old School Red-Green.
Standard: Ob-Nixilis Wave and Elves.
but i sure as hell would have demanded my proxies back
Based on what you've posted, it seems that your store owner hasn't broken any laws, unless he kept your proxies. Legally, because the shop is private property and he is the owner, he can tell you that you can't use proxies in his store. If he does, just stop going there. because if he doesn't start losing business as a result of his actions, he has absolutely no incentive to change. However, if he permanently damages any of your belongings, or refuses to give you back your proxies and sleeves, you could and probably should get the authorities involved. If he takes your property, and you ask for him to return it, it doesn't matter how much value it has, he would have to do so.
Was that the kind of advice you wanted?
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them.
Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
I'll try to answer all those questions, in order.
The store owner is normally okay. Not great, just okay.
Sometimes, but he seems to pick on the kids, maybe because he thinks they are helpless and won't do anything about it.
They're not exactly common, he might get annoyed at someone around once a month or so. (No, he's a guy)
No, he didn't.
And yes, that is the kind of advice I wanted. I just don't know how to take action.
There are two things i'd do in your situation. First, I'd discuss the situation with the rest of the people he picks on. Second, I would demand the return of my property, since he has no right to keep it, and if he refuses, ask my parents for help.
Owners of stores like the one you describe aren't generally well off financially, and his conduct suggests that he would have difficulty replacing customers. As a result, he can ill afford a reputation as a bully and a thief, so he will have to shape up.
What can be done in response to this is limited by what you are willing to do about it. If you're unwilling to stop going to that shop, then it will be hard to change anything, but if you were willing to play elsewhere, he would start to notice. Also, you should probably speak with your parents about this, because they will probably be able to help you in this matter.
Proxies are legal for use in unsanctioned play as long as your opponent agrees to it. There are circumstances in sanctioned play where they are legal, and some where it is illegal.
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them.
Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
I reckon I'll do this. Maybe, just maybe, if I can give him proof that they won't sue, he'll allow me to use them.
Avvie courtesy of XenoNinja
edit: good odds on Dungeon in Melbourne.
He does however have the right to state that proxies are not allowed in his store - and he most certainly has the right to kick you out if you are using them there, despite what he's said.
I wouldn't go so far as calling the police - as I think that will just by and large waste everyone's time. If you are going to be going to this store regularly, next time, ask the dude ahead of time what his policy on proxies is for playtesting purposes. Make sure it's clear you do not mean for tournament play. If he tells you they aren't allowed in his store - thank him, and tell him that you will need to find another store to do business with and leave. And, this is the most important part - don't come back. Ever.
Make sure you tell all your magic friends and acquaintances about the experience, and go on with your life. Pretty simple really.
Or it might be easier to do as others have said and just stop going there.
Anyway, get your stuff back, even if it isn't really worth anything. It will help teach him that taking things from other people isn't something to do.
Then stop going there as much as you can.
I appreciate your input, but I think calling the police is being a bit too hasty. I'll go there in a day or two, kindly ask for them back, and if he doesn't return them, then I'll take action.
As others have said, regardless get your cards back, as they are your property. Though I would suggest going in on Thursday, and discussing it with the "cool" owner. That's who seems like the best channel to take it up with. Get some witnesses/people who have experienced similar treatment from the other owner. Either he will change his ways or the cool owner will try to eliminate him from the equation to save face and keep customers happy.
After all is said and done, your problem should be rectified in some way, and perhaps you can convince them to expand their singles selection too.
This is all well and good, but stopping people using proxies is about as likely as stopping people illegally downloading music. Personally I think WotC should allow people to make proxies for personal use. For one thing, it's not going to hurt their business, especially if people are just using it for playtesting or because it's a 13 year old who can't afford to more than a couple boosters a month or can't afford the inflated prices on many singles.
It's a game, for pete's sake.
I think you should involve your parents. That's the first thing I'd do if I were you. I'm your age, and if your parents are anything like mine they'll get the owner to give them back in roughly 1.4230570943570 seconds. I don't think you should involve the police if you were using printed proxies, on the off chance one of them looks proxies up and finds out they're illegalish. However, if you've got some older friends there (like I do) you could probably get them to give you the cards back.
Modern:
GRB Jund BRG
RBU Grixis Delver UBR
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes W
GRB Punishing Jund BRG
GUR Canadian Threshold RUG
Commander:
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer GUR
Do they distribute FNM prizes on a night that is not Friday? This is a pretty bad offense to Wizards.