Juzam Djinn sees 0 play in the formats he's legal in, would probably see very little Standard play if reprinted (see Plague Sliver), and yet still commands prices North of $100. It's the promise of a continued scarcity that keeps his value high, not the card's power level.
This is exactly what I was going to post. The main reason Juzam's were so powerful back in the early days was due to black having Dark Ritual, not to mention the acceleration of lotus/moxes. Plague Sliver is a functional reprint that came over 10 years later. As you can see by it's lack of popularity, the landscape of the game has changed substantially (black no longer has mana acceleration as part of its color pie).
Juzam's are quite scarce and obviously priced far higher than their power level dictates. Hellfire's for $7.50? That is a great price if you ask me. The coolness factor of Hellfire/Simulacrum is off the charts. Not to mention the awesomeness of the picture!
Out of curiosity, who buys Hellfire? It's really pretty bad, and for the current price Damnation would be a better buy for a few dollars more. I don't see why it matters if dealers can keep their overly-high prices for awful cards if those cards rarely sell at all. They probably would profit more from selling higher quantities at lower prices.
While I understand why the policy was put into place, and why Wizards is "forced" into upholding it today, that doesn't take away from the fact that I would really like to start playing Vintage, but can't afford it. I'm not sure how many other people are out there like me, but I'm sure a good number are. There has to be a decent solution to fix the problem of the reserved list, but it's such a delicate thing, that I'm sure it's near impossible to find one.
The point isn't who buys hellfire, it's that the price of hellfire does not reflect how powerful the card is.
The reserved list basically works to prevent them from reprinting old legendary creatures, a few really popular old cards, and dual lands. Pretty much everything else on that list is simply a no-no to reprint. Not reprinting Cradle, Academy, Bargain, Will, etc. is smart for the health of the format. If they want to keep pushing 1.5, one thing they can do to try to get players into the format would be to lower the cost of the big monetary leap to get into it. It would also fill WotC coffers with more lucre, potentially, if the old duals went down to 20-25 apiece instead of starting there.
The Reserve List, in my opinion, lost all credibility when they let us vote to remove the uncommons from it--Clone and Juggernaut were on it originally, and have since been reprinted many times. Furthermore, however, for any set since The Dark, the reserve list actually serves to permanently DEFLATE the value of old cards. Look at Reflecting Pool or Meddling Mage, both of which saw tremendous spikes in value when they were reprinted.
Scarcity is no longer the driving factor in the value of 99% of cards. It was back before Fallen Empires, when sets were so massively underprinted that even the crappy cards had value. Collectors were a much more significant part of the game's monetary base in the first year or two, until that bubble burst and Magic went from being a COLLECTIBLE card game to a TRADING card game (see the difference?). These days, anything on the reserve list is almost guaranteed to never be worth more than it currently is, barring weird Legacy and Vintage deck tech.
I'd say they should have a poll about whether people's perceptions of this issue would effect the company's overall credibility. What's more important--that a company can change policies with the times, or that they keep themselves constrained by outdated promises? If people are concerned about Juzam etc being reprinted, then abandon the Reserve list for every set after The Dark, or perhaps 'any card not reliably selling for more than $10 can be reprinted,' though that could also be problematic.
The other options are: find tricksy ways to get around the reserve list. Thunder Spirit is the card that always gets brought up--but you know, seems to me that, thanks to Kamigawa block, 'Spirit' is a creature type with enough play-value that reprinting it as, say, a Bird Soldier or Kithkin (particularly if it's some sort of tribal effect) would not be a fully functional reprint. 99% of the time, sure, but tribal effects are significant enough that they'd be different enough.
The other option: Ignore it. Principle of the thing, yeah it's annoying, but honestly, there's like ten or twenty cards on that list that we'd be happy (and they'd be willing) to reprint. We got a bunch of them in Sliver form in Time Spiral block, which actually made quite a few of them better, and still nobody much cared.
Or maybe they'll do a "From the Vault: Reserve List." That'd be a weird one.
For the person thinking that Plague Sliver is a complete copy of Juzam Djinn... unlike Juzam Djinn, Plague Sliver's abilities are granted to all slivers... making it a Sliver hoser, and at the same time, absolutely horrible in multiples as with two Plague Slivers in play, you take 4 damage a turn and not just two if you had 2 Juzam Djinn in play.
I think VestDan hits this on the head with the simple line "Magic went from being a COLLECTIBLE card game to a TRADING card game"
The game is no longer collectible as it once was. Wizards has realized this fact by not updating the Reserved List in years, because they are making cards for moreseo for players now and not collectors. They have realized that by having the ability to reprint any card they make they can keep players happier in the long run. Look at CaptShetz's list all of those cards are great and it's shame they cannot be played with again aside from a kitchen table.
I do agree that certain cards do need a policy that they cannot be reprinted again (as earlier stated), and I like VestDan's idea of saying "All cards that are worth over X amount as of this date cannot be reprinted".
While I understand why the policy was put into place, and why Wizards is "forced" into upholding it today, that doesn't take away from the fact that I would really like to start playing Vintage, but can't afford it. I'm not sure how many other people are out there like me, but I'm sure a good number are. There has to be a decent solution to fix the problem of the reserved list, but it's such a delicate thing, that I'm sure it's near impossible to find one.
Almost all vintage tournaments that are held allow for some number of proxies, ranging from 10 to even having a full proxy deck. Honestly, if you live in an area where vintage is possible, you could build a good vintage deck for less than a standard deck would cost you.
I do agree that certain cards do need a policy that they cannot be reprinted again (as earlier stated), and I like VestDan's idea of saying "All cards that are worth over X amount as of this date cannot be reprinted".
Picking and choosing which cards stay and which cards go doesn't solve the problem, it just puts a fresh bandage on it. As long as you have a list of cards that will not be reprinted, someone will be unhappy. And Wizards would never make qualifications to the list based on the price tag. They are in the business of selling sealed product, and making judgment calls of any nature based on how much a used card is worth invalidates their history of standing mute on such arguments.
This is not an issue that has to do with players; It never was. It's about the stores who sell their products, and Wizards does everything it can to keep them happy. No amount of online polls can, or should change what Wizards promises to the people they sell their boxes to.
The Reserve List, in my opinion, lost all credibility when they let us vote to remove the uncommons from it--Clone and Juggernaut were on it originally, and have since been reprinted many times. Furthermore, however, for any set since The Dark, the reserve list actually serves to permanently DEFLATE the value of old cards. Look at Reflecting Pool or Meddling Mage, both of which saw tremendous spikes in value when they were reprinted.
Scarcity is no longer the driving factor in the value of 99% of cards.
Another good example is Psionic blast, when it was reprinted in TS it spiked up HIGH. When it was discovered that it really was not that good in standard the reprint fell down low. The alpha/beta/unlimited versions did loose a little bit, about 2.00 which can be expected because there are more on the market. But the important part is the older versions are still worth far more than their reprinted counterparts. Even the unlimited version, with its white border is worth 4x what the reprint is.
Reprinting does not effect the older cards value (too much).
I think this slight loss the older versions take is an exceptable trade off to reprint the formerly "unprintable".
I think the standard players complain about vintage too much but really have NO IDEA what they are talking about. Not only the phantom-"Vintage costs too much!" but the "Why would I want to play a format where you die or kill someone on turn 1?" People who say these things have either been lied to or are only looking at a small sample selection. Force of Will is a 30 dollar card on Starcity. For near mint. So heavy play is 25$ You know those Thoughtseizes and Reflecting pools you own that are about to take a HUGE hit in value? Well I remember FOW at $15 maybe 3 years ago. And it is a staple card you play in anything that has blue in it. The value is NOT going down. Yet standard players everywhere are brainwashed by WOTC that they have to get this new set because it is what is going to be legal!
I won a Heavy Played Mox Pearl from Unlimited in a tournment with a 25$ entry fee which allowed 20 proxies. I don't think I need to say anything more about that. Magic is a collectable game. You would spend 25-30 bucks on your chase standard rares, but the chase cards in vintage are used over and over again and never rotate. Bannings also rarely happen on the pricey cards before anyone brings that up. We are all spending money on CARDBOARD. I am a standard player who dabbles in Vintage. The Reserve list is fine by me because I don't mind saving up for a $300 card that I WILL play with because I spent 300 bucks on the dang thing haha. Standard appeals to our societies need for instant gratification and since very few players can drop 300 bucks on a played mox whenever they want, they wanna stick to standard.
*EDIT* I am not trying to pick out individuals with any comments that have been said prior to my post. Many people have the thoughts that vintage is too expensive so please don't think I am flaming any of you. Some players will NEVER have enough money they want to buy a lotus with and I do understand that. All I am saying, is give Vintage a chance.
Cube draft! Many major tournments have cubes you can join in. When you cube draft you get a small taste of Vintage (I think anyway) of the interaction of all the most powerful cards over Magics history. Tolarian Academy and Triskelavus should never be in the same sentence but just dominated my Cube tonight
Actually the reserved list does preclude them from doing THAT!
Quote from Originally Posted by WotC" »
Special-Purpose Reprints
All policies described in this document apply only to non-premium, tournament-legal Magic cards. Wizards of the Coast has and may continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as oversized cards
And even if they could do that I would be against it. It would still devalue actual Black Lotuses quite a bit.
Quote from Originally Posted by WotC" »
Special-Purpose Reprints
All policies described in this document apply only to non-premium, tournament-legal Magic cards. Wizards of the Coast has and may continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as oversized cards
i just fixed the emphasis... so technicly, YES they could print a premium Lotus, or Mox or what ever if they wanted to... (well ofcourse they could they could change the policy, but even within policy as is today they can)
and didnt they already do that? didnt the Vintage world Champ the last couple of years get a new-art new-border piece of P9?
i just fixed the emphasis... so technicly, YES they could print a premium Lotus, or Mox or what ever if they wanted to... (well ofcourse they could they could change the policy, but even within policy as is today they can)
and didnt they already do that? didnt the Vintage world Champ the last couple of years get a new-art new-border piece of P9?
thank you, I thought that was the case. I wasn't sure given Skrules response, but was pretty sure they had printed a P9 Promo recently.
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Special-Purpose Reprints
All policies described in this document apply only to non-premium, tournament-legal Magic cards. Wizards of the Coast has and may continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as oversized card
i just fixed the emphasis... so technicly, YES they could print a premium Lotus, or Mox or what ever if they wanted to... (well ofcourse they could they could change the policy, but even within policy as is today they can)
and didnt they already do that? didnt the Vintage world Champ the last couple of years get a new-art new-border piece of P9?
Wizards of the Coast means non-premium or tournament legal. So no, they will never print a tournament legal piece of power again. What they gave the vintage champs was a 3 foot long Mox Pearl or something. Again, I bolded the correct part. "Cards not meant for regular game play"
He wants them to stay there to be sure, and not only be "pretty sure", that the investments he made into these cards are safe and will stay that way.
That's the attitude that started this whole mess. Collectors got into Magic back during Legends or so and bought up "stock" thinking it was a good investment. Games are a really, really bad investment. When Chronicles was released, and all these horrible but very rare cards were reprinted, collectors were given a dose of reality.
You could ask the other way around, why do you want them to get rid of the reprint policy, if most of the cards are unplayable or totally broken by todays standards. Even if Juzam Djinn is like $100, if you wouldn't play it nowadays, why reprint it?
I'm not saying everything on the list should be reprinted. I'm saying that there are plenty of cards on the list that would make for interesting reprints given a certain environment. Most of the cards on there are crap, yes, but that shouldn't preclude any chance of reprinting.
You want to talk about inflating card prices, look at the Mythic Rare. And foil cards before that. Now that's blatantly inflating card prices. Doesn't this bother you too?
That's a different situation. A mythic rare is about the same rarity as a Xth Edition rare. And given how large set printings are now the chance that supply of any mythic rare drying up like cards from Antiquities or Legends is nil.
Wizards put a policy in place. It was promised they would never alter it. I spent a good penny on my Juzam Djinn, knowing full well Wizards made a promise to me. If they abolish this supposed "eternal" policy, wouldn't I have the right to be angry? To say one thing and do another is terrible business practice. Is it wrong to hold them to their promise?
They've already altered it once. They've already admitted to it being a knee-jerk reaction that has turned out to be a mistake.
I've never said I wanted them to remain on the reserve list. I don't really care about the low-value or just-plain-crappy cards that are on there. Their being on there doesn't matter. For the higher-value cards, it does.
We're almost on the same page here. If no one cares about the crappy cards on the list then why are they there? The high dollar stuff on the list is stuff that isn't going to be reprinted anyway for power level concerns (except maybe Juzam) so the list serves no good purpose.
And you haven't explained how the reserve list has done anything bad.
...
So you have not shown any bad effects to have come from the reserve list, other than ones you made up.
I'll make an appeal to authority then: Randy Buehler once stated, "if it wasn't for the Reserved List, I'd be arguing for us to reprint the original dual lands". Why? In the same article he states that good multicolor lands are good for the health of the game. I could swear I read another article by Buehler sometime around the release of Ravnica about how WotC wanted to put the original dual lands in the set but couldn't due to the reserve list. That list has tied WotC's hands when it comes to making decisions that would be good for the players. Basically when it comes to reprinting cards from the early sets WotC has to side with the collectors instead of the players all because of the list.
1) Find which printer Wizards used in the mid nineties to print the old sets
2) Contact said printer
3) Discuss printing process that Wizards paid for (cheap thin cardboard, cheap ink)
4) Slip a couple 100$ to the printer and since they (most likely) kept copies of all the files of printed cards from back then, get yourself some private prints.
5) Profit
OR
Wizards could print a FtV: Reserved list like someone mentioned earlier, all in foil, with new pictures and make them NOT legal for tournament play. Because lets face it, everyone who plays competitive vintage already has the cards, and most of us would just play with them in a casual format.
Oh and Hellfire is HELLA cool. Very flavourful, and if anyone's got one that they'd be willing to sell me for 7$, pm me!
1) Find which printer Wizards used in the mid nineties to print the old sets
2) Contact said printer
3) Discuss printing process that Wizards paid for (cheap thin cardboard, cheap ink)
4) Slip a couple 100$ to the printer and since they (most likely) kept copies of all the files of printed cards from back then, get yourself some private prints.
5) Profit
No nevermind the fact that Wizards could sue both you and the Printer if you did that and ever played with the counterfeits in a tournament.
Wizards could print a FtV: Reserved list like someone mentioned earlier, all in foil, with new pictures and make them NOT legal for tournament play. Because lets face it, everyone who plays competitive vintage already has the cards,
If everyone who played competitive Vintage already had the cards, then why would people be allowed to use Proxies? They wouldn't! Proxies are allowed for 2 reasons... 1.) because people don't want to risk damaging their valuable cards. And 2.) because they may not already have the valuable cards. And trust me, number 2 is alot more prominent than number 1!
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No nevermind the fact that Wizards could sue both you and the Printer if you did that and ever played with the counterfeits in a tournament.
Good luck with that! They wouldnt be counterfeit since they'd have the exact same printing method originally used, in fact, they would be like pack fresh! I didnt say that i would use them for tournament play either...
If everyone who played competitive Vintage already had the cards, then why would people be allowed to use Proxies? They wouldn't! Proxies are allowed for 2 reasons... 1.) because people don't want to risk damaging their valuable cards. And 2.) because they may not already have the valuable cards. And trust me, number 2 is alot more prominent than number 1!
then lets just abolish vintage from sanctioned play altogether! I love me some vintage decks, but vintage competitive is such a bore...i even play legacy and even that is *nearly* innacessible (with decks ranging well over 1000$, well competitive ones anyways).
Maro mentioned in his article yesterday that pretty much everyone involved in making the reserved list doesnt work at Wizards anymore. Let's be honest here, Hasbro is in to make money and if they feel that reprinting these cards will net them "MAD LOOTS", then i really dont see how this isnt a smart business move.
Im preeeetty sure that most stores make their money off singles from standard/extended and some legacy, but hardly on vintage. The ratio of standard players to vintage is probably 50:1, thus im not entirely sure how "badly" a store would be affected by reprints off the reserve list. Especially since the cards will then become much more available to the public, thus pushing sales for both hasbro AND dealers.
So you might "anger" a small community of close minded individuals who forked out big bucks for originals...thing is, it's people like them (and even me) or care more about originals than reprints...id much rather have an original black lotus than a reprint, even if id be happy getting a reprint...
Anyways, the bottom line is that it's only a matter of time before those cards get reprinted and if you dont believe it, i think you're just fooling yourself. It'll eventually make good business sense to do it.
Almost all vintage tournaments that are held allow for some number of proxies, ranging from 10 to even having a full proxy deck. Honestly, if you live in an area where vintage is possible, you could build a good vintage deck for less than a standard deck would cost you.
You're right, and I've known this, but that just feels dirty to me.
Im preeeetty sure that most stores make their money off singles from standard/extended and some legacy, but hardly on vintage. The ratio of standard players to vintage is probably 50:1, thus im not entirely sure how "badly" a store would be affected by reprints off the reserve list. Especially since the cards will then become much more available to the public, thus pushing sales for both hasbro AND dealers.
Yeah, I've thought about this, too. I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't imagine a shop to be having P9 fly out the door every day. But that doesn't take away from the fact that they have that "value" on hand, whether or not anyone would actually buy it. I would tend to agree that reprinting stuff like that (even non P9) would make stores even more money in the long run.
@ Shinny Shinny: $1,000+ dollars for a legacy deck? There isn't a single legacy deck out there that costs more than that unless you foil the whole deck out, get beta duels, and choose an already semi expensive deck. I know my friend has his $2,500 landstill deck that's foiled out but really legacy isn't a thousand bucks plus for a deck even one with lots of fetches and duals such as countersliver, ANT, landstill, threshold, or aggro loam.
I know a lot of the reserved list is crap but the cards on there that are worth money should stay on there so as not to anger collectors. Even if P9 and beta duels were reprinted I could see a) a lot more eternal format play and b) the originals retaining value because they are 15 years older at least than the ones just printed.
The reserved list is hardly ruining the game though. Also I doubt they would print really high power cards on it like ancestral recall or yawgmoth's will as they would break standard in half along with extended.
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@ Shinny Shinny: $1,000+ dollars for a legacy deck? There isn't a single legacy deck out there that costs more than that unless you foil the whole deck out, get beta duels, and choose an already semi expensive deck. I know my friend has his $2,500 landstill deck that's foiled out but really legacy isn't a thousand bucks plus for a deck even one with lots of fetches and duals such as countersliver, ANT, landstill, threshold, or aggro loam.
I know a lot of the reserved list is crap but the cards on there that are worth money should stay on there so as not to anger collectors. Even if P9 and beta duels were reprinted I could see a) a lot more eternal format play and b) the originals retaining value because they are 15 years older at least than the ones just printed.
The reserved list is hardly ruining the game though. Also I doubt they would print really high power cards on it like ancestral recall or yawgmoth's will as they would break standard in half along with extended.
That's the base of legacy. With this, you can pretty much build any competitive deck. I mean yeah sure, stuff like Pox, D&T dont reach that total, but i was just giving a figurative number. Believe me, that's the average meta i play in...
The thing is, nothing stops them from printing those cards. Who said they had to be legal in standard??? You just reprint them to allow younger players access to cards that they would never otherwise have access too. Plus it gives them a taste of what vintage is like and maybe that'll cause them develop interest in the format, thus spend more money to build their decks (which store owners cant be complaining about).
Seriously, i hardly see any justifiable reason to not reprint those cards.
Juzam Djinn sees 0 play in the formats he's legal in, would probably see very little Standard play if reprinted (see Plague Sliver), and yet still commands prices North of $100. It's the promise of a continued scarcity that keeps his value high, not the card's power level.
After Chronicles proved to everyone that a card's value should be judged in terms of its power level instead of its availability WotC responded to the outcry with a policy that instead of solving the problem (cards like Hellfire being priced outside the realm of actual card value) actually allowed dealers to keep inflated prices on older cards that could not reasonably be worth such prices.
That's what irks me the most. Outcry? In '94? I'm willing to bet the outcry was a hundred pissed off dealers. I think it was blown out of proportion, since WotC was a startup, and afraid to destroy the game.
I have playsets of nearly everything. Recruiters, Duals, all the $20+ cards from legacy. Seriously, just kll the list. It's useless as it is. People are still willing to pay lots of money for mint beta, even if it's cards that have been reprinted a billion times like *** and BoP. I've said time and time again, just do away with it. No need for special reprint sets. Kill the list and reprint as they see fit.
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This is exactly what I was going to post. The main reason Juzam's were so powerful back in the early days was due to black having Dark Ritual, not to mention the acceleration of lotus/moxes. Plague Sliver is a functional reprint that came over 10 years later. As you can see by it's lack of popularity, the landscape of the game has changed substantially (black no longer has mana acceleration as part of its color pie).
Juzam's are quite scarce and obviously priced far higher than their power level dictates. Hellfire's for $7.50? That is a great price if you ask me. The coolness factor of Hellfire/Simulacrum is off the charts. Not to mention the awesomeness of the picture!
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The reserved list basically works to prevent them from reprinting old legendary creatures, a few really popular old cards, and dual lands. Pretty much everything else on that list is simply a no-no to reprint. Not reprinting Cradle, Academy, Bargain, Will, etc. is smart for the health of the format. If they want to keep pushing 1.5, one thing they can do to try to get players into the format would be to lower the cost of the big monetary leap to get into it. It would also fill WotC coffers with more lucre, potentially, if the old duals went down to 20-25 apiece instead of starting there.
Scarcity is no longer the driving factor in the value of 99% of cards. It was back before Fallen Empires, when sets were so massively underprinted that even the crappy cards had value. Collectors were a much more significant part of the game's monetary base in the first year or two, until that bubble burst and Magic went from being a COLLECTIBLE card game to a TRADING card game (see the difference?). These days, anything on the reserve list is almost guaranteed to never be worth more than it currently is, barring weird Legacy and Vintage deck tech.
I'd say they should have a poll about whether people's perceptions of this issue would effect the company's overall credibility. What's more important--that a company can change policies with the times, or that they keep themselves constrained by outdated promises? If people are concerned about Juzam etc being reprinted, then abandon the Reserve list for every set after The Dark, or perhaps 'any card not reliably selling for more than $10 can be reprinted,' though that could also be problematic.
The other options are: find tricksy ways to get around the reserve list. Thunder Spirit is the card that always gets brought up--but you know, seems to me that, thanks to Kamigawa block, 'Spirit' is a creature type with enough play-value that reprinting it as, say, a Bird Soldier or Kithkin (particularly if it's some sort of tribal effect) would not be a fully functional reprint. 99% of the time, sure, but tribal effects are significant enough that they'd be different enough.
The other option: Ignore it. Principle of the thing, yeah it's annoying, but honestly, there's like ten or twenty cards on that list that we'd be happy (and they'd be willing) to reprint. We got a bunch of them in Sliver form in Time Spiral block, which actually made quite a few of them better, and still nobody much cared.
Or maybe they'll do a "From the Vault: Reserve List." That'd be a weird one.
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The game is no longer collectible as it once was. Wizards has realized this fact by not updating the Reserved List in years, because they are making cards for moreseo for players now and not collectors. They have realized that by having the ability to reprint any card they make they can keep players happier in the long run. Look at CaptShetz's list all of those cards are great and it's shame they cannot be played with again aside from a kitchen table.
I do agree that certain cards do need a policy that they cannot be reprinted again (as earlier stated), and I like VestDan's idea of saying "All cards that are worth over X amount as of this date cannot be reprinted".
Almost all vintage tournaments that are held allow for some number of proxies, ranging from 10 to even having a full proxy deck. Honestly, if you live in an area where vintage is possible, you could build a good vintage deck for less than a standard deck would cost you.
Picking and choosing which cards stay and which cards go doesn't solve the problem, it just puts a fresh bandage on it. As long as you have a list of cards that will not be reprinted, someone will be unhappy. And Wizards would never make qualifications to the list based on the price tag. They are in the business of selling sealed product, and making judgment calls of any nature based on how much a used card is worth invalidates their history of standing mute on such arguments.
This is not an issue that has to do with players; It never was. It's about the stores who sell their products, and Wizards does everything it can to keep them happy. No amount of online polls can, or should change what Wizards promises to the people they sell their boxes to.
I'm fairly certain it was $7 before it was reprinted.
Another good example is Psionic blast, when it was reprinted in TS it spiked up HIGH. When it was discovered that it really was not that good in standard the reprint fell down low. The alpha/beta/unlimited versions did loose a little bit, about 2.00 which can be expected because there are more on the market.
But the important part is the older versions are still worth far more than their reprinted counterparts. Even the unlimited version, with its white border is worth 4x what the reprint is.
Reprinting does not effect the older cards value (too much).
I think this slight loss the older versions take is an exceptable trade off to reprint the formerly "unprintable".
no reflecting pool was $2.
i bought about 20 of them, the night it was spoiled for about $42ish
best thing i ever did
I won a Heavy Played Mox Pearl from Unlimited in a tournment with a 25$ entry fee which allowed 20 proxies. I don't think I need to say anything more about that. Magic is a collectable game. You would spend 25-30 bucks on your chase standard rares, but the chase cards in vintage are used over and over again and never rotate. Bannings also rarely happen on the pricey cards before anyone brings that up. We are all spending money on CARDBOARD. I am a standard player who dabbles in Vintage. The Reserve list is fine by me because I don't mind saving up for a $300 card that I WILL play with because I spent 300 bucks on the dang thing haha. Standard appeals to our societies need for instant gratification and since very few players can drop 300 bucks on a played mox whenever they want, they wanna stick to standard.
*EDIT* I am not trying to pick out individuals with any comments that have been said prior to my post. Many people have the thoughts that vintage is too expensive so please don't think I am flaming any of you. Some players will NEVER have enough money they want to buy a lotus with and I do understand that. All I am saying, is give Vintage a chance.
Cube draft! Many major tournments have cubes you can join in. When you cube draft you get a small taste of Vintage (I think anyway) of the interaction of all the most powerful cards over Magics history. Tolarian Academy and Triskelavus should never be in the same sentence but just dominated my Cube tonight
i just fixed the emphasis... so technicly, YES they could print a premium Lotus, or Mox or what ever if they wanted to... (well ofcourse they could they could change the policy, but even within policy as is today they can)
and didnt they already do that? didnt the Vintage world Champ the last couple of years get a new-art new-border piece of P9?
thank you, I thought that was the case. I wasn't sure given Skrules response, but was pretty sure they had printed a P9 Promo recently.
iirc the winner got this mock-up (which is the "original" art framed like a card) ASWELL as a normal sized playable one...
Was the Normal Sized Playable one in any way a promo? Or was it an original?
That's the attitude that started this whole mess. Collectors got into Magic back during Legends or so and bought up "stock" thinking it was a good investment. Games are a really, really bad investment. When Chronicles was released, and all these horrible but very rare cards were reprinted, collectors were given a dose of reality.
I'm not saying everything on the list should be reprinted. I'm saying that there are plenty of cards on the list that would make for interesting reprints given a certain environment. Most of the cards on there are crap, yes, but that shouldn't preclude any chance of reprinting.
That's a different situation. A mythic rare is about the same rarity as a Xth Edition rare. And given how large set printings are now the chance that supply of any mythic rare drying up like cards from Antiquities or Legends is nil.
They've already altered it once. They've already admitted to it being a knee-jerk reaction that has turned out to be a mistake.
We're almost on the same page here. If no one cares about the crappy cards on the list then why are they there? The high dollar stuff on the list is stuff that isn't going to be reprinted anyway for power level concerns (except maybe Juzam) so the list serves no good purpose.
I'll make an appeal to authority then: Randy Buehler once stated, "if it wasn't for the Reserved List, I'd be arguing for us to reprint the original dual lands". Why? In the same article he states that good multicolor lands are good for the health of the game. I could swear I read another article by Buehler sometime around the release of Ravnica about how WotC wanted to put the original dual lands in the set but couldn't due to the reserve list. That list has tied WotC's hands when it comes to making decisions that would be good for the players. Basically when it comes to reprinting cards from the early sets WotC has to side with the collectors instead of the players all because of the list.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
Magic CompRules
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
1) Find which printer Wizards used in the mid nineties to print the old sets
2) Contact said printer
3) Discuss printing process that Wizards paid for (cheap thin cardboard, cheap ink)
4) Slip a couple 100$ to the printer and since they (most likely) kept copies of all the files of printed cards from back then, get yourself some private prints.
5) Profit
OR
Wizards could print a FtV: Reserved list like someone mentioned earlier, all in foil, with new pictures and make them NOT legal for tournament play. Because lets face it, everyone who plays competitive vintage already has the cards, and most of us would just play with them in a casual format.
Oh and Hellfire is HELLA cool. Very flavourful, and if anyone's got one that they'd be willing to sell me for 7$, pm me!
I like Turtles
No nevermind the fact that Wizards could sue both you and the Printer if you did that and ever played with the counterfeits in a tournament.
If everyone who played competitive Vintage already had the cards, then why would people be allowed to use Proxies? They wouldn't! Proxies are allowed for 2 reasons... 1.) because people don't want to risk damaging their valuable cards. And 2.) because they may not already have the valuable cards. And trust me, number 2 is alot more prominent than number 1!
Good luck with that! They wouldnt be counterfeit since they'd have the exact same printing method originally used, in fact, they would be like pack fresh! I didnt say that i would use them for tournament play either...
then lets just abolish vintage from sanctioned play altogether! I love me some vintage decks, but vintage competitive is such a bore...i even play legacy and even that is *nearly* innacessible (with decks ranging well over 1000$, well competitive ones anyways).
Maro mentioned in his article yesterday that pretty much everyone involved in making the reserved list doesnt work at Wizards anymore. Let's be honest here, Hasbro is in to make money and if they feel that reprinting these cards will net them "MAD LOOTS", then i really dont see how this isnt a smart business move.
Im preeeetty sure that most stores make their money off singles from standard/extended and some legacy, but hardly on vintage. The ratio of standard players to vintage is probably 50:1, thus im not entirely sure how "badly" a store would be affected by reprints off the reserve list. Especially since the cards will then become much more available to the public, thus pushing sales for both hasbro AND dealers.
So you might "anger" a small community of close minded individuals who forked out big bucks for originals...thing is, it's people like them (and even me) or care more about originals than reprints...id much rather have an original black lotus than a reprint, even if id be happy getting a reprint...
Anyways, the bottom line is that it's only a matter of time before those cards get reprinted and if you dont believe it, i think you're just fooling yourself. It'll eventually make good business sense to do it.
I like Turtles
You're right, and I've known this, but that just feels dirty to me.
Yeah, I've thought about this, too. I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't imagine a shop to be having P9 fly out the door every day. But that doesn't take away from the fact that they have that "value" on hand, whether or not anyone would actually buy it. I would tend to agree that reprinting stuff like that (even non P9) would make stores even more money in the long run.
twitter.com/bccarlso
I know a lot of the reserved list is crap but the cards on there that are worth money should stay on there so as not to anger collectors. Even if P9 and beta duels were reprinted I could see a) a lot more eternal format play and b) the originals retaining value because they are 15 years older at least than the ones just printed.
The reserved list is hardly ruining the game though. Also I doubt they would print really high power cards on it like ancestral recall or yawgmoth's will as they would break standard in half along with extended.
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Retired
well let's see...
12 revised duals = ~480$
8 fetches = ~200$
4 'goyfs = ~130$
4 FoW = ~120$
total = ~900$
That's the base of legacy. With this, you can pretty much build any competitive deck. I mean yeah sure, stuff like Pox, D&T dont reach that total, but i was just giving a figurative number. Believe me, that's the average meta i play in...
The thing is, nothing stops them from printing those cards. Who said they had to be legal in standard??? You just reprint them to allow younger players access to cards that they would never otherwise have access too. Plus it gives them a taste of what vintage is like and maybe that'll cause them develop interest in the format, thus spend more money to build their decks (which store owners cant be complaining about).
Seriously, i hardly see any justifiable reason to not reprint those cards.
I like Turtles
That's what irks me the most. Outcry? In '94? I'm willing to bet the outcry was a hundred pissed off dealers. I think it was blown out of proportion, since WotC was a startup, and afraid to destroy the game.
I have playsets of nearly everything. Recruiters, Duals, all the $20+ cards from legacy. Seriously, just kll the list. It's useless as it is. People are still willing to pay lots of money for mint beta, even if it's cards that have been reprinted a billion times like *** and BoP. I've said time and time again, just do away with it. No need for special reprint sets. Kill the list and reprint as they see fit.